Advice on a possible buy.

[Masco73]

I recently come across a guy selling some arcade games in my area. He has a few, but the only one I am interested in is a Joust machine. The problem is it is not working. He says the coin door lights power up, but thats it, but claims cosmetically it is in really nice shape. He gave me a price of $300, which I think is a bit steep for a non-working game.

My questions are: Does it sound like an easy fix or no way to tell??

What's a fair price to offer??


I have no knowledge on fixing these games, but am willing to try if its not too complicated. Normally I would not try on something non-working, but Joust is one of my favorites.

Any advice appreciated. Thanks!

[98PaceCar]

The two main things that fail on the Williams boards are ram and power supply. I've fixed many of these by just replacing both.

The price seems pretty good if it's complete and in overall good condition.

[Joe West]

there's 2 many out there forsale, for that price, wait and find one working........

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

I'm no expert by any means ... but I can tell you that replacement monitors aren't cheap.

If you can't confirm that that's fully working, I'd stay away at that price.

Or throw a low ball offer at him with that justification.

[Peale]

I'm no expert by any means ... but I can tell you that replacement monitors aren't cheap.


Joust machines hold their value pretty well. $300 in complete, good shape but not working isn't too far of a stretch.

4164 RAM upgrade with a converter is a cheap fix. I'd do it on a machine that's NOT broken for the reliability.

As for the monitor, unless it's totally borked, fixing them isn't usually terribly bad. And replacements can be had for as little as $139 on sale from places like Betson.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

Well, there you go. I guess it's reasonable if you're willing to do some minor repair/replacement work.

Does the guy have any photos of the cosmetic shape of the thing for us to evaluate?

[Masco73]

He said the lowest he will go is $250. I am going to look at it Saturday and make sure it is in good shape . If so, I probably buy it right there. He also mentiond that the neck would also glow when powered up. Do you guys have a good place to buy a power supply?? I looked around a little and mostly found some kind of rebuild kits?? I don't know if I have the skills to do that. I was thinking replace the PS first. Is that a good place to start??

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&Item=230233033950&Category=13718&_trksid=p3907.m29

that looks reasonable, the experts here can probably elaborate as to whether or not that's what you need.

[Peale]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&Item=230233033950&Category=13718&_trksid=p3907.m29

that looks reasonable, the experts here can probably elaborate as to whether or not that's what you need.

Only if that's what's broken. Even if it is, they're not hard to fix.

If it still has the original RAM it's possible some of them have burned out. 4116 RAM in classic Williams machines is eaten like popcorn.

[Masco73]

Just got back from looking at the Joust. First of all it was covered it dust/dirt. It was in storage for years. The guy said it worked before it was put in storage.
Anyway, I would say overall cosmetically it is about an 8 out of 10. The wood parts of the cab are in good shape with dings here and there. The bottom and edges are intact with minor damage from moving, but nothing major. The control panel has cigarette burns, so that needs to go. Side art is nice and original.
The guts of the machine looked real clean. No damage at the battery holder. When turned on, the coin door lights up, red lights on the board turn on and I could see a faint glow on the monitor neck. The monitor makes a pop sound when turned off like you would expect. I will get pics when I can.

I ended up buying it for $250. The guy even delivered it to my house for an extra $15 bucks for gas.

Well, any suggestions on what to fix first?? Does it sound like an easy fix or no way to tell??

[Peale]

First I'd verify that the monitor is actually working. You could be chasing "gremlins" all day long, but if you can't see what's going on, you can't properly repair.

Next, verify your voltages are good.

Joust also has a diagnostic util on board, IIRC. I think there's an LED digital readout on the ROM board that may help you figure out what's wrong.

[Masco73]

I won't be able to check the led thing until Monday, but how exactly will I be able to verify the monitor is working?? Also, I read somewhere there are 3 red lights on the board and I think only 2 were lit. Does that mean anything??
One more thing, I saw a sticker on the back of the monitor that said RCA. It struck me as wierd because I never hear that brand when talking about arcade monitors.

Thanks.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

I won't be able to check the led thing until Monday, but how exactly will I be able to verify the monitor is working?? Also, I read somewhere there are 3 red lights on the board and I think only 2 were lit. Does that mean anything??
One more thing, I saw a sticker on the back of the monitor that said RCA. It struck me as wierd because I never hear that brand when talking about arcade monitors.

Thanks.

I believe the monitor in my Dig-Dug cabinet was an RCA.

Those may have been stock standard for original cabinet builds for that time.

[Peale]

RCA makes *tubes*.

As for how to see if your monitor is working, if you don't have another game to test it on, turn your screen control all the way up (on the flyback). If you have a white screen with lines through it, likely it's okay. There are occasions you can do this and it won't be, but those issues are rare.

[Peale]

I won't be able to check the led thing until Monday, but how exactly will I be able to verify the monitor is working?? Also, I read somewhere there are 3 red lights on the board and I think only 2 were lit. Does that mean anything??

Yes it does. Consult the manual for the LED readings.

[Masco73]

Well I was only able to fiddle with the machine for only 30 minutes or so, but found out a few things. As per Peale's instructions,(thanks by the way for your help) ,I turned one of the knobs on the monitor like instructed and I got the white lines like you stated. I am hoping that means the monitor is good.
Also, I was lucky enough to get all the original paperwork, warranty card, drawing set and even the original sticker sheet, etc... I also found 5 quarters, a couple microchips, fuses and a light bulb in the bottom of the machine so far.
I will take pics of this stuff eventually when I get time. I would like to do a before and after of the machine. The outside is layerd with dirt & dust. Anyway, with the drawing set I found out that the top red LED light that was out is the +5 voltage.
My question is what to do next? Would it be fuses, 4116 chips or the Supply??

Thanks again.

[Peale]

I'd do the power supply. Make sure it's working well first, otherwise you're chasing ghosts that aren't there.

Sounds like your monitor is working...thats' good.

Those "chips" you found are probably RAM chips. When they go bad someone pulled out the old ones and installed new ones, but left the old ones in the bottom.

[Masco73]

OK I am going to start with the PS. One problem, which frikin thing is it?? I have been looking around and I have seen 3 different things that people are saying are power supplies for the Joust. There is the thing that sits in the very bottom of the cab with the big copper wound wires, I don't think thats it. There is a stand alone box that sits on top of the coin collection box and the one shown for sale on ebay earlier in this thread. I found the stand alone box on Bob Roberts website, so I am assuming that is the one. Please confirm as this if confusing. Be gentle it's my first upright. Thanks.

[Peale]

I'd have to see a picture to be sure. The wirewound-thing sounds like your isolation transformer. The original power supply should be a board with a couple fairly large caps on it and a bridge rectifier, and mounted on the side. I have no idea about the "stand-alone box" but it kind of sounds like a Peter Chou style power supply.

Again, pictures are worth 1,000 words !

[Masco73]

This is the stand alone box on sale at Bob Roberts:

http://arcadecontrols.com/BBBB/williams.jpg

[Peale]

That's a Peter Chou power supply with a harness for Williams games.

[Masco73]

My machine has one of these in it already. Is this what I need to replace?? I will get some pics on Monday. Maybe it will clear things up.

[Peale]

My machine has one of these in it already. Is this what I need to replace?? I will get some pics on Monday. Maybe it will clear things up.

I have no idea if it needs replacing or not without being in the cabinet.

[freckledpeas]

My machine has one of these in it already. Is this what I need to replace?? I will get some pics on Monday. Maybe it will clear things up.

Do you have a multimeter? If not, you'll want to invest in one... Set the meter to DC current... put the black lead on ground, and the red lead on the +5 on the edge connector. Your meter should read around 5.10 volts...

If you don't know where ground and +5 is on the edge connector, you can at least measure this on the power supply for starters (it's labeled nicely for you here). It's less accurate though, because you lose some current from the power supply as it travels across the wires and to the board - you want approximately 5.10 volts at the board, so it's usually set a little higher at the power supply to acheive this.

If the voltage is set too low (or too high), there's a pot (a.k.a. a "knob") on the power supply that can increase or decrease the voltage.

Lastly, congrats on your purchase! Joust rocks!

[Peale]

Joust doesn't have an edge connector.

What he does have, however, are the drawing set. It tells which pins have which voltage. Which you should check to make sure they fall within spec.

[freckledpeas]

Joust doesn't have an edge connector.



I stand corrected when I mentioned an "edge connector", so thanks to Peale for the info on Joust boards. The concept is the same, however... You'll just put the leads of your multimeter on pins instead.

Just personal preference, but I always check the power supply first before even checking the power at the board... just because it's easy to hold the leads "chopstick-style" to get your measurement here, and it'll tell you right away if your power supply is dead, or just not putting out enough juice.

This really is a fun hobby to get into, so good luck with your repair. :)

[Masco73]

Thanks for the help. I will get a multimeter and get to work. I also, will get some before and after pics going. I will let you know how I make out. Thanks again all.

[Peale]

If you need a meter, I have a basic meter in my store (http://www.pealefamily.net/arcade/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=3&products_id=15).

[Masco73]

Thanks , but I have one already. I was looking over the boards closely this time and found that the f5 fuse was missing!! Could it be that simple?? I will be getting one at radio shack today and I will let you know how I make out.

[Peale]

Thanks , but I have one already. I was looking over the boards closely this time and found that the f5 fuse was missing!! Could it be that simple?? I will be getting one at radio shack today and I will let you know how I make out.

I guess it all depends on what that particular fuse does.

[Masco73]

Went to radio shack Sunday, Of course, they have a hundred different knds of fuses except what I need. So, they ordered it for me and now I need to wait until Thursday or Friday to get them.

[Peale]

So what does that particular fuse do?

[Tommy]

Went to radio shack Sunday, Of course, they have a hundred different knds of fuses except what I need. So, they ordered it for me and now I need to wait until Thursday or Friday to get them.

Damn, I was reading this thread yesterday and was awaiting the outcome. Oh well, I guess I will just have to wait.

[Masco73]

So what does that particular fuse do?


It says according to the drawing set it is the +5vdc +12vdc unres. and the led that is out is the +5vdc. Also, this fuse is on the Power supply board.

You can see a drawing of it here: ( you need to click on PS Layout)

http://www.robotron-2084.co.uk/manuals/joust/joust_upright_drawing_set.pdf

[Peale]

Yeah, +5V is pretty important. :D

If it blows again immediately I'll bet you need to rebuild your PS.

[Masco73]

Got the fuses today and put one in. It blew in a few seconds. The led that was out turned on for a second. So do you think the best bet is to fix the linear pwer supply?? This machine also has a switching power supply. I think they have a rebuild kit on Bob Roberts.

[Peale]

I'd rebuild the linear one. Though I'm wondering why the linear one is still hooked up if there's a switcher in there. Is the switcher hooked up?

[Masco73]

Yes, The switching one is hooked up also. Here is a pic of the inside:

[Peale]

Do you think you can get bigger pictures? I can't make out any details.

[Masco73]

Here are the full size pics. This site must have shrunk them.

http://imagehost.vendio.com/preview/ma/masco/08_08_11.JPEG

http://imagehost.vendio.com/preview/ma/masco/08_08_12.JPEG

http://imagehost.vendio.com/preview/ma/masco/08_08_13.JPEG

[Peale]

Okay...it looks like someone put that switcher in place of the original linear PS. It's supplying +5V and +12V to the board.

Use your meter and see if it's doing anything. In other words, check the voltages coming off that PS.

[Masco73]

Well I went to check with the meter today. The only problem is I had no idea where to put the leads. I gave it a try anyway. I put one lead on the +5/12vdc wire on the switching power supply and the other on the metal part where the fuses go in. The meter read on fuses the following:
f1= -4.2, f2=.03, f3=12.8, f4= -.01, f5=13.7

I have no idea if I put the leads in the right place to measure, but some of the readings came close to what they should be. If this was wrong, let me know. I tested them on dc volt setting. If you want to se the drawing set, go up 8 posts and I have a link.

The f5 fuse was the one blowing out and it should be +5 res/ +12 unres. and it is reading 13.7 vdc. Does this mean the switching PS is bad or did I just confuse everyone. Let me know what to do next. Thanks again for all the help!!

[Peale]

Read the voltages on the screw terminals on the switching power supply. Black lead on ground, red lead on the others.

[Masco73]

OK, I put the black lead on the ground(where the brown wire is in the pic) and tested each screw down and had no readings all zero's for each screw. Does that mean it is shot??

[Peale]

Sounds like it. Meter the AC going in to the supply to make sure it's getting juice before you write it off.

[Masco73]

If I need a new switching PS, are they all the same or do I need one with certain specs. The Joust one on Bob Roberts is $45 plus shipping, but there are others on ebay that are way cheaper. This one for instance:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=380058288933&ih=025&category=13718&_trksid=p3286.m7&_trkparms=algo%3DLVI%26its%3DK%252BD%252BC%26otn%3 D3%26ps%3D5

Just trying to save a few bucks here. I would switch it back to the linear one if I had any idea how to.

[Peale]

You don't want that eBay one. It outputs 24V and 12V, no 5V!

I'll sell you a used working one for ten bucks plus shipping.

http://www.pealefamily.net/arcade/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2&products_id=13

[Masco73]

I will get that now. Thanks!! Do you think that 4116 chips would be fried too??

[Masco73]

Peale, just tried to use your paypal checkout and it gave me a error code. I also said notify storeholder of problem. PM me a email address and I'll Paypal you directly. I also need a total with shipping.

[Masco73]

Finally got the new power supply installed. The monitor came up, but with a garbled screen. The screen is a scramble of colors. View picture below.(sorry cell phone picture) There also is no sound at all. Any suggestions on what to do next??


http://imagehost.vendio.com/preview/ma/masco/joustscreen.jpg

[Peale]

Start checking RAM. Touch them. Are any of them hot?

Check the ROM board display, is it showing numbers other than a zero?

[Masco73]

Well I went ahead and got some new 4116 ram chips. I took of the old ones and started to put some new ones in and by the time I got the 3rd one in of the new ones, they were red hot!! They would actually burn your hand if you held it on for more than a few seconds. Now I know this means something, but what do I do next. I immediately pulled the plug and hopefully I didn't damage anything. I hooked the new switcher the exact same way as the old one was hooked up. I measured the +5v and it was 5.2v.. If I hooked it up wrong, would the monitor work or not??? If you need me to measure something, please be descriptive because I have no clue. Thanks.

[Masco73]

A few other thing that happened. There were no numbers on the error light, it was kind of pulsing lightly though. Also, when I originally installed the new switcher, I put a new 7amp fuse in the original linear supply board. When I turned it on, the fuse blew instantly, but the screen came up garbled. I don't know if that tells you anything, but it seemed weird to me because I thought the switcher took over the power jobs and eliminated the need for the linear. I am totally confused!!

[Peale]

The first thing I would have done was dump the 4116 RAM and installed 4164 in its place, along with an adapter.

And you weren't swapping out that RAM with it ON were you? Sounds like you were.

If the chips are getting HOT to the touch, something else is wrong.

[Masco73]

It was plugged in, but not on. I unplugged it and waited for the chips to get cool again and since the chips were probably fried already, i replugged it and they got hot right away.
I have heard about the 4164 ram, but I thought you need to mod something to do it. I was using the 4116 because it is easy swap. Like i said, I have no skill with this stuff, but I am willing to learn.

[Peale]

You can either modify your board, or use a plug in adapter. I have one on my site:

http://www.pealefamily.net/arcade/store/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=4

If the chips were getting hot when the game wasn't even on, but plugged in...that's not good at all.

[Masco73]

I assume that using that adaptor won't solve the chips problem will it?? Do you have any ideas of what the problem is and what to do next?? I know I am probably bugging you with all the questions, but I do appreciate all the help. I was hoping it was only going to be a quick ram switch or change the power supply, but here we are.

[Peale]

The only thing the adapter will do is allow you to use 4164 RAM in place of the 4116 RAM that is on there now. I would definitely change it over, but the fact that the cabinet appears to be powering up even when turned off screams "problem" to me.

[Peale]

Anything new?

[Masco73]

Well after trying to put the 4116 in and getting some smoke off the board, I posted the question over at the KLOV boards. It appears that someone may have spliced directly off the service outlet, which would keep it hot at all times when plugged in. I am not sure what to do at this point. I don't have the knowledge as I said, I am a newbie at this stuff. I would probably want to change it back to the original linear supply and fix up the hacked in wires.
The problem is I don't want to turn it on as I fear damaging more things. If I can't turn it on, I can't check voltages, so I am at a stand still now.
Any suggestions??

[Peale]

Two suggestions:

1) learn everything you can about cabinet wiring, and apply that knowledge towards wiring this properly.

2) have a professional (or at least someone who knows what they're doing) do it for you.