Nintendo: Hardcore gamers 'critically important to us' [Joystiq]

[DP ServBot]

Filed under: Nintendo DS (http://www.joystiq.com/category/ds/), Nintendo Wii (http://www.joystiq.com/category/wii/), E3 (http://www.joystiq.com/category/e3/), Business (http://www.joystiq.com/category/business/), Casual (http://www.joystiq.com/category/casual/)

http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.joystiq.com/media/2008/07/reggie-playing-wiisports-e3.jpg (http://blog.wired.com/games/2008/07/nintendos-cammi.html)

Which would explain why so much of Nintendo's E3 press conference (http://www.joystiq.com/2008/07/15/engadget-and-joystiq-live-from-nintendos-e3-2008-keynote/) was taken up by spirited flailing, smiling soccer moms and the worst rendition of the Super Mario Bros. theme the world has ever been forced to endure.

But Nintendo hasn't forgotten about the mythical "hardcore" gamer crowd, Cammie Dunaway tells Wired (http://blog.wired.com/games/2008/07/nintendos-cammi.html). The executive VP of sales and marketing, who insists that she's a "genuinely smiley, nice person," explains that "the Zelda and Mario teams are hard at work," possibly on something that could rival the infinitely desirable Super Mario Sluggers. "And even Super Mario Sluggers (http://www.joystiq.com/tag/super-mario-sluggers), which is certainly an expanded audience title, but what core gamer doesn't love Mario and baseball and finding out which combination of characters are going to do what kind of crazy things in the field?" she ponders.

Dunaway also notes that Nintendo is committed to a variety of games, catering to casual players with titles like Cooking Navi, and exciting tougher crowds with the DS iteration of Grand Theft Auto (http://www.joystiq.com/2008/07/15/nintendo-announces-gta-chinatown-wars/). We mean, she must have seen it, right? "I have not looked at the product. Have you?" Well, no ... but we haven't been incorporating it into our sales pitch either.Continue reading Nintendo: Hardcore gamers 'critically important to us' (http://www.joystiq.com/2008/07/22/nintendo-hardcore-gamers-critically-important-to-us/)


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[JunkTheMagicDragon]

Words, I'd like you to meet my friend Actions. He speaks louder than you.

[G-Boobie]

Actually, it turns out that "Hardcore gamers are critically important to us" is phonetically identical to the swahili "Harad cur gaimar ar kritica lali imp aurtan tu aus".

Roughly translated, it means "We are literally made out of money. We love you
soccer moms!"

Well played, Nintendo. Well played.

[Moo Cow]

I'm not going to lie, with Metal Slug Anthology and the recent influx of shoot'em ups, they're at least appealing to us by approving the right games. However, region locking still pisses me off.

[TonyTheTiger]

I'm still waiting for someone to define what a "hardcore gamer" is. Frankly, someone who plays every so-called "casual" game on the market is a hell of a lot more hardcore than someone who now and then picks up an RPG or two. So before Nintendo starts appealing to the "hardcore" player or developing "hardcore" games, they better let me know who and what they think fits in those categories.

Now, if they want to focus on good games and limit the shovelware that finds it's way onto the Wii, that I can get behind.

[Trebuken]

I think "hardcore" is driven by the technology. Whatever is fastest and graphically most impressive. The Wii of course fail versus the Xbox 360 and the PS3. Motion controls are a great innovation and the new Wii Motion has "hardcore" potential, but essential the familty and friend inclusive attitude isn't hardcore. I do not want to play Street Fighter IV with my mom, sister, girlfriend, or other sometime gamer...it wouldn't be fun.

GTA on the DS? Could work but it sounds ridiculous...Animal Crossing? really...that's it??? Fun for sure, but too cute for hardcore...

Clone Wars....maybe...give us a Wii Motion lightsaber and we'll reconsider. The Wii is not going to win this generation, actually it isn't winning now in software sales, just hardware....and the reason is hardcore gamers will by games when casual gamers will buy food first...

[Hwj_Chim]

Nintendo Hardcore? X_x Like the first poster said, We need actions not words Nintendo.

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q197/hwj_chim/24o0biwjpg.gif

[roushimsx]

I'm still waiting for someone to define what a "hardcore gamer" is. Frankly, someone who plays every so-called "casual" game on the market is a hell of a lot more hardcore than someone who now and then picks up an RPG or two. So before Nintendo starts appealing to the "hardcore" player or developing "hardcore" games, they better let me know who and what they think fits in those categories.

Now, if they want to focus on good games and limit the shovelware that finds it's way onto the Wii, that I can get behind.

Echoing this. How do you target a demographic that's impossible to target? There's a lot of hardcore casual gamers. People that'll fuck you up in any match three game out there, but are they still considered casual gamers because they just play casual games? Are you only a hardcore gamer if you play niche titles that lack mass market appeal? Do you have to play a lot of different games to be hardcore, is there a select subset of titles that you need to play (random niche titles from small dev houses), or do you just have to be incredibly dedicated to a single game (like Bejewelled, Super Smash Brothers Melee, Halo 2, or Soldat)?

There was a GameSetWatch about that topic a while back...I'll have to dig around for it.

Saying that the "hardcore market is important" is just a load of marketing bullshit, imo. They're just trying to appeal to the self proclaimed hardcore gamers that like to bitch and whine on message boards that Nintendo has abandoned them. Nintendo didn't abandon anyone; everyone abandoned them back in the N64 and Gamecube days and now everyone's pissed that a whole new audience has found Nintendo, that Nintendo is suddenly huge again, and that Nintendo is totally cool with allowing a massive shit load of bottom of the barrel shovelware on their home system just like they do on their portables.

Their lax quality standards might mean that we get stuck with more crummy budget games than the PS2, but if it also means low key titles like the Milestone shooting collection (http://www.amazon.com/dp/B001BJ690E) finding a release in the US, well then I'm all cool with it. Fuck it, it's not like I'm going for a complete Wii collection (lord do I feel sorry for those of you that are doing that) and it's not like Amazon's shelves are getting so clogged with junk (http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00125LACO) that I can't find what I want (http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000X25GW2).

[TonyTheTiger]

I take it one step further, actually. I don't think "hardcore games" and "casual games" exist at all. How do you classify it? By amount of time you invest? If that's the case then something that has theoretically infinite replay value like Snake is more hardcore than Metroid Prime.

The terminology is relatively new. And it seems to me that the basis for the use of the terms derives from self-proclaimed "hardcore" gamers feeling shafted for whatever reason and thus, looking for a scapegoat, point the finger at the so-called casual crowd. You never see the take it or leave it gamer waving the flag of "casual" with a sense of self-satisfaction in the same way the opposite happens. This leads me to believe that people have gotten comfortable using the term "casual" as a replacement for "uninteresting." Therefore, any game they play is automatically "hardcore" and anything they don't is "casual."

So "hardcore" becomes a Trojan Horse term for "AAA title" and "casual" is the same for "shovelware." Which, really, is not appropriate at all as it's insulting to people who only play games on occasion. Being a "casual gamer" is not indicative of playing bad games. It's as if the people more dedicated to video games are, perhaps not consciously but subconsciously, holding a sneering resentment towards the people who just don't care to invest as much time and money into the hobby.

If you try to apply the same terminology to anything else, it comes off as incredibly snobbish. "Those Levi's brand jeans are so casual. Now, Abercrombie & Fitch, that's some hardcore denim right there." "What's with all this casual pizza? Where's the hardcore escargot?"

It would be better if people said what they actually mean and just say they're sick of the low budget games and want some blockbuster titles. Why the pretense?

[p_b]

I'm still waiting for someone to define what a "hardcore gamer" is.

Hardcore gamers are people with an undying passion for playing whatever their current favourite game is. For a few minutes. They then move on to a popular forum, enter every thread in which the name of a "rival" console / game is mentioned and start crying/swearing/insulting everyone who doesn't completely agree with them. For a few days.

Repeat ad infinitum.

[j_factor]

I always thought "hardcore gamers" were supposed to be a small set of people. People who were willing to try any kind of game, and often played the more "niche" or "artsy" stuff. A "hardcore game" was something outside the mainstream, perhaps with esoteric appeal. Recently, with the 360 especially, the term has been redefined (or attempted to be redefined) to mean... I don't know what. I don't know what games people are referring to when they say that the 360 somehow has the best appeal to hardcore gamers. What games does it have that are so hardcore? Halo and GTA and the like were never considered to be "games for the hardcore gamer set" before. They're extremely mainstream. A better example, to me, of a more "hardcore" game for the 360 would be something like Senko no Ronde. But somehow, I don't think anybody's thinking of Senko no Ronde when they say that 360 is for hardcore gamers.

A "hardcore film buff" is someone who watches a large number of movies, both mainstream and obscure, and has an appreciation for the arthouse and indie films that generally go unnoticed by the general movie-watching public. Until about two years ago, that's what I understood "hardcore gamer" to mean as well.

Despite the overall tone of this post, I don't really care.

[Icarus Moonsight]

The way I see it via a music analogy; Hardcore gamers are Dead Heads that followed The Grateful Dead religiously as hippie-pilgrims and casual gamers are the teenage girls who crammed into Shea stadium, crying and screaming to see the Beatles. The Dead put out some nice music though most of it was rather average when compared to their contemporaries output, like the Beatles for instance. The substance of a medium can not be determined by the fervor of it's fan base. Kiss Army, Juggalos... need I go on? LOL

It's all crapola. ;)

[Nature Boy]

I'm still waiting for someone to define what a "hardcore gamer" is.

That's easy, isn't it? The hardcore types are the first behind new hardware, trumpeting how awesome and amazing it is. They demand the release of obscure games in all sorts of genres. They spend hours upon hours playing and perfecting games. They're the ones who, ahem, visit message boards to talk about games.

In other words, I'd say everybody on this board is hardcore. Although like anything, some are more hardcore than others :)

I'd also say that this type of gamer is hardly critical to Nintendo at this point. They're doing just fine with the casual gamer. Maybe they're worried about future generations of the hardware - would a casual gamer buy a Wii 2 when it launches?

[heybtbm]

That's easy, isn't it? The hardcore types are the first behind new hardware, trumpeting how awesome and amazing it is. They demand the release of obscure games in all sorts of genres. They spend hours upon hours playing and perfecting games. They're the ones who, ahem, visit message boards to talk about games.

In other words, I'd say everybody on this board is hardcore. Although like anything, some are more hardcore than others :)

I'd also say that this type of gamer is hardly critical to Nintendo at this point. They're doing just fine with the casual gamer. Maybe they're worried about future generations of the hardware - would a casual gamer buy a Wii 2 when it launches?

QFT. That's a perfect description of "hardcore". Most of the people on DP are hardcore...whether they want to admit it or not. It's just another silly label, but it applies.

Nintendo couldn't care less about this demographic. They are obviously profitable beyond their wildest dreams. Why change that by appealing to the gamers that built the foundation they currently reside on? We should be thankful they even acknowledge us.

Seriously though....LOL at the "Super Mario Strikers/Hardcore Gamer" comments from Nintendo P.R. FUCKING CLUELESS.

>>ZAP<<

[Berserker]

Didn't they throw everything but the kitchen sink into SSBM? That seemed pretty hardcore.

[WanganRunner]

If Nintendo really wants to address the "Hardcore" crowd, they need to do another serious 1st party RPG.

And not a Paper Mario game, but a no-bullshit 3D traditional epic JRPG featuring 1st party Nintendo characters, heavy on story and fan service.

It can be either real-time or turn-based, or actually, have a customized battle system for each character that relates to the franchise they come from, or whatever.

But they need to do it. I'm not sure another Metriod Prime game will cut it, they need to do SOMETHING ELSE.


And yes, they print money, so they probably don't care, but a TRUE successor to Mario RPG would go a looooooooong way in alleviating the concerns the "hardcore" market has about Nintendo.

[TonyTheTiger]

That's easy, isn't it?

Apparently not as we've just gotten a few different definitions. My point wasn't so much that we don't know whether or not we're "hardcore." But that the term is thrown around in such a way that you never really know what the end game is. If Nintendo develops a new Zelda is that something for the "hardcore" crowd? How about if they start opening the doors for more quirky Japanese titles to be localized? It all seems to come down to whether or not we like it. If we like it then it's for the "hardcore." If we don't like it then it's "casual." It's a textbook example of arbitrary. Really, it all comes down to us wanting Nintendo to do bigger things than Electroplankton. I say we drop the pretext of the false terms and just say that.


QFT. That's a perfect description of "hardcore". Most of the people on DP are hardcore...whether they want to admit it or not. It's just another silly label, but it applies.

I don't know how many people wouldn't want to admit it. I don't like the terms because of how they're used not necessarily because they exist. While we here pass ourselves off as being hardcore (which, yeah, most of us are) there's an undertone to a lot of discussions about the "casual" crowd that comes off as pompous and dismissive. As if "casual" is a derogatory term. I find that troublesome because 1) it makes us sound elitist and 2) it's used in the most arbitrary way when pointing out so-called "casual" games.


If Nintendo really wants to address the "Hardcore" crowd, they need to do another serious 1st party RPG.

And not a Paper Mario game, but a no-bullshit 3D traditional epic JRPG featuring 1st party Nintendo characters, heavy on story and fan service.

And why would that be "hardcore"? You see where I'm going with this? It seems that if we like it then it's hardcore. If we don't then it's casual.

[Hep038]

Hardcore Nintendo gamers is someone who has played all of their shovel ware games.

[calthaer]

Hardcore gamers are more defined by skill and familiarity with standard gaming conventions than they are by their "interest" in games, or the amount they play them - although both of those latter items should eventually breed greater skill and familiarity unless someone has absolutely no eye-hand coordination.

Hardcore gamers therefore want games that appeal to and comfortably challenge the large amount of skills and skill-sets they have already developed. I'm pretty sure that a few game designers like Spector and / or Wright have written articles on these things...haven't they? I know I've read them but can't recall off-hand where it was - an interview or gamasutra article or whatever.

The point being that the people picking up the Wii now do not generally have these thumb-twitching, strategy-devising, secret-combo-discovering skillz that those who have played hours upon hours of gaming do. And the majority of their current lineup doesn't cater to those that do, or to that skill level. People wanting that sort of experience on the Wii are generally left cold, because there are loads of simplistic, easy-to-play and easy-to-master games that anybody's grandma or girlfriend could (and does) pick up and enjoy.

This is what Nintendo was aiming for all along - they have said so from the outset. So why is anybody surprised that there are relatively few games out there for the Wii that require a high level of what is considered "classic" or traditional gaming skill? This press release is of course completely bogus - Nintendo doesn't really care about the "hardcore" gamer at all. But we all knew this.

I myself don't even have a Wii yet, and don't know if I'll ever buy one. There are plenty of games on "classic" systems (including the GameCube) that I haven't finished yet. So why bother, especially when I still haven't seen one on store shelves - ever?

[Push Upstairs]

This press release is of course completely bogus - Nintendo doesn't really care about the "hardcore" gamer at all. But we all knew this.

I think there are going to be a lot of people, especially those that carried Nintendo through their "rough" years, who aren't going to be happy when they finally realize this.

[TonyTheTiger]

Is that really happening though? What's Nintendo done ever since the N64? We got our Zeldas, Marios, Mario Karts, Star Foxes, etc. Every now and then a new IP like Pikmin or Animal Crossing comes around. But Nintendo has for quite some time put all their eggs in that basket. Unless I've not been paying attention, we're still getting our Zeldas, Marios, Mario Karts, Metroids, etc. There just happens to be a large collection of other stuff tossed in this time around. From the looks of it, Nintendo isn't really gypping anyone as far as their "name" titles go. They're just also inundating us with a lot of quirkiness and shovelware. Even if that quirkiness and shovelware weren't around, we'd still end up with the same number of AAA Nintendo franchise games.

[chrisbid]

since when did the term 'hardcore' become synonymous with frat-boys?

seriously, first person shooters and sports games are not hardcore, they are mainstream and derivative.

while the wii has become the shovelware console of choice, this past E3 was a joke allaround. whenever software is the focus of an E3, the results are always lame

[TonyTheTiger]

since when did the term 'hardcore' become synonymous with frat-boys?

seriously, first person shooters and sports games are not hardcore, they are mainstream and derivative.

And we have yet another definition! Boy, I love when everyone else argues my point for me. :D

[Push Upstairs]

Is that really happening though?

Nintendo is going to make games that appeal to those that make them the most $$. Nintendo is a business. If the "casual, non-gamer" market of theirs continues to grow their focus will shift.

[Press_Start]

Nintendo doesn't really care about the "hardcore" gamer at all. But we all knew this.


Complete and utter bull.

Lara Croft, Crash the Bandicoot, and Sonic the Hedgehog are a few examples of what happens when companies actually don't care. So far Nintendo's first party games range from superb excellency to exceptionally good to say the least. On top of that, they've released many titles within the last year to last us for three years and there's upcoming new Mario and Zelda in the works. The proof is in the pudding people, so I don't see why making too much fuss over one bad conference (yeah the WiiMusic presentation was bad but Nintendo fans should know better and they did apologize afterwards doesn't make them out as heartless corp/money-sucking monsters).

Calthaer, you got it backwards. It was the ""hardcore"" crowd that didn't care as they took up PS2/XBox for their Halo/GTA/Madden highs and basically told Nintendo to suck it. I understand why, at least from a business standpoint, they targeted the casual crowd as it is a) a new source of lifeblood for the company and b) knew they could never the ""hardcore"" market against Sony and Microsoft.

[Melf]

Lara Croft isn't a good example for your point actually, because Eidos has shown it does care by taking the franchise away from Core and giving it to Crystal Dynamics, which has completely revived it. You're right on Crash and Sonic though.

I love that whenever Nintendo talks about how it hasn't forgotten "core" gamers, it only mentions Mario and Zelda. Mario is doing everything but porn these days, and we've gotten more Zelda games in the last 4 years than in the entire lifetime of the franchise before that. I think the main complaint people have is that we get one "core" game for every 6 shovelware and "casual" titles. Nintendo's making money, and that's all it should really be caring about. It doesn't cared about "core gamers," and it will simply do what's best for its bottom line. That's perfectly understandable. However, it's also understandable that I don't give a shit about Nintendo's bottom line. Its interests are no longer in tune with mine, so I'm selling my Wii (check my sales thread!).

[calthaer]

Calthaer, you got it backwards. It was the ""hardcore"" crowd that didn't care as they took up PS2/XBox for their Halo/GTA/Madden highs and basically told Nintendo to suck it. I understand why, at least from a business standpoint, they targeted the casual crowd as it is a) a new source of lifeblood for the company and b) knew they could never the ""hardcore"" market against Sony and Microsoft.

Of course "hardcore" / skilled gamers told Nintendo to suck it back in the N64 days (and the 'Cube days that followed). And maybe it wasn't just those titles, but also their Castlevanias and their Final Fantasies and all those other classic IPs that abandoned Nintendo first. The N64 was a terrible machine with relatively few good games compared to the wealth of PS1 hits that catered to the crowd that grew up on the NES / SNES.

Then the GameCube came out of the gate weak, with Super Mario Sunshine and little else to really appeal, and when a Zelda did come it was the "Cel-da" Wind Waker that, at least from appearances, looked like it belonged to a six-year-old (when what everyone was hoping for was more like Twilight Princess) and wasn't really that great of a Zelda title, IMO - it felt very unfinished. The Cube was worthy of the hardcore crowd - it really was. Metroid Prime was great, Smash Brothers was excellent - there was a lot to go around.

I'm not blaming Nintendo for taking a different business track - I agree with you that it was gamers who left. But I think that they left because some of their favorite titles left first, and those titles left because Nintendo made one great mistake, and that was the cartridge-based format of the N64.

[Nature Boy]

How about if they start opening the doors for more quirky Japanese titles to be localized?

I don't think I'd ever call someone clamoring for quirky Japanese titles as casual. You have to totally go out of your way to find out about them in the first place. That's hardly arbitrary.

[RadiantSvgun]

I'm still waiting for someone to define what a "hardcore gamer" is.

Ugh, I know what you mean. To me, its just a label.

[TonyTheTiger]

I don't think I'd ever call someone clamoring for quirky Japanese titles as casual. You have to totally go out of your way to find out about them in the first place. That's hardly arbitrary.

I'll give you an example from my own personal life. My younger brother. He's a perfect example of a take it or leave it gamer. He'll play Tony Hawks and once in a while Call of Duty or something but on average he plays maybe two or three hours a week. Yet, he loves Disgaea.

I'm contending that "hardcore" and "casual" has nothing at all to do with the selection of games. It has to do with how often one actually plays and how much money one spends.

Let's say you have two people. One plays every first person shooter, spends hours online shooting everybody, rebuilds his computer every two years to make sure he can play the newest titles but never touches anything "niche." The other plays a NIS title once in a blue moon but nothing else. Who's more "hardcore"?

[GarrettCRW]

Nintendo + "hardcore gamers" = OMGWTFBBQ!!!

[Nature Boy]

I'll give you an example from my own personal life. My younger brother. He's a perfect example of a take it or leave it gamer. He'll play Tony Hawks and once in a while Call of Duty or something but on average he plays maybe two or three hours a week. Yet, he loves Disgaea.

I'm contending that "hardcore" and "casual" has nothing at all to do with the selection of games. It has to do with how often one actually plays and how much money one spends.

Let's say you have two people. One plays every first person shooter, spends hours online shooting everybody, rebuilds his computer every two years to make sure he can play the newest titles but never touches anything "niche." The other plays a NIS title once in a blue moon but nothing else. Who's more "hardcore"?

Why does one have to be more hardcore than the other? Can't they both be hardcore? In my mind they'd both be.

I agree that just because somebody likes a title that might be considered niche doesn't make them hardcore. Liking Disgaea alone means nothing. If your brother had found out about Disgaea months ahead of time, been whining on message boards that it should be localized, or thought about importing it so that he could play it before it gets released here - *that's* hardcore.

Seeing a game in an EB and picking it up even though it's not a "Tony Hawk" doesn't mean much, other than they're looking for something different.

[JunkTheMagicDragon]

I'm contending that "hardcore" and "casual" has nothing at all to do with the selection of games. It has to do with how often one actually plays and how much money one spends.

my definition as well. seems to be the most versatile i've come across. someone that plays hexic 6 hours a day would definitely be more hardcore to me than someone who turns on their console once a year to play EA's Roster Update 20XX© or Grizzled Space Marine 2: Teh Revenge©.