Top 100: The Final Cut

[ManekiNeko]

All right, let's use this thread to determine which games should NOT be on the Top 100 List. Hopefully, that will limit any confusion that may result from reading both nominated and un-nominated games on the same thread.
I'll list my drops here momentarily.

JR

[WiseSalesman]

Are you sure spreading it into two threads is a good idea? I smell confusion...

In addition, this makes it difficult to defend games, as per the recent ideas in the thread.

[Kid Fenris]

Kid Kool should not be in the Top 100. That's just my opinion, though.

[ManekiNeko]

Whoop, here it is:
(careful, hot buttons pressed inside!)

APB (Lynx): Kind of dull and not really to my liking. It's an innovative idea, but sometimes that's not enough to make a game a classic.

Archon (C64/Atari 8-bit/NES): Crummy chess/action hybrid which was even worse on the NES, where I played it. Stupidly simplistic fighting makes this a total bore.

Attack of the Timelord! (O2): No way does this deserve the same honor given to Galaga or Radiant Silvergun. A halfway decent game by Odyssey2 standards, but those aren't exactly high standards.

Axelay (SNES): Immensely overrated, gimmicky shooter that tries to be a next generation Gradius and fails. Miserably.

Blades of Vengeance (GEN): A so-so sword game by Electronic Arts... reasonably enjoyable, but no more so than Risky Woods, and that's no classic either.

Bonk's Revenge (TG-16): Bonk, Bonk, I'm totally not bonking. I never cared for this series much. If nothing else, at least it illustrates what Charlie Brown would have looked like in the year 5000 BC.

Boy and His Blob, A (NES): Crap, crap, megacrap. I'd be much more inclined to include this on a list of the worst NES games ever. A stupid play mechanic and primitive graphics make you wonder if Super Pitfall would have been any better if David Crane himself had designed it.

Castlevania II: Simon's Quest (NES): Symphony of the Night proved that Castlevania could work as an adventure game. Simon's Quest had the opposite effect. Lackluster level design and uninteresting gameplay drove a stake through the heart of this one.

Contra (NES): An overrated, immensely frustrating shooter. They're all worthless as far as I'm concerned. Luckily, Gunstar Heroes takes this lump of coal and presses it into a shining diamond.

Contra III: Alien Wars (SNES): Better than the previous games or the lame Genesis version, but still hard to consider one of the best games ever. The Game Boy Advance version will dampen any enthusiasm you once had for this title.

Deluxe Galaga (Amiga): I hate to be the deciding vote on this one, but Edgar Vigdal's take on the classic Namco shooter Galaga doesn't stack up to the original thanks to unimaginative enemy formations.

Demon Attack (2600): Strike one: it's repetitive. Strike two: no boss. Strike three: it's vastly overrated, which annoys me. You're out... of my 2600!

Doom II (PC): The original had a huge impact on the gaming industry, but what makes the sequel so different?

Double Dragon (Genesis): A good translation, but too fast on the Genny... and mediocre in comparison to other, better side-scrolling brawlers. Final Fight beats the hell out of this old clunker.

Dragon's Lair (3DO/Jag CD/CD-i): Where's the beef? Even better, where's the game? It seems like Bluth did 99% of the work on this one. Also, Dragon's Lair spawned the multimedia/full motion video trend, which is in and of itself enough reason to drop it from the list.

Final Fantasy VII (PSX): Never have I played a darker, more boring RPG than this one. It's full of special effects, rendering, and other popular mid 90's buzzwords, but the one thing it lacks is fun.

Food Fight (7800): What Home Alone would have been if it had been a halfway decent (but not great) game instead of the garbage T*HQ gave us. Even the main character looks like Macaulay Calkin. Cute idea, but not as good as Robotron.

Galactic Attack (Saturn): A reasonably well done shooter, but it's no Radiant Silvergun or Dodonpachi. The wimpy power up system and target lock on detracts from the game's appeal.

Galaga (7800): You mean the *****NES***** version, right? Oh man, please say you mean the NES version!

House of the Dead, The (DC): A fun shooter while it lasts, but it lacks substance. The first game had better level designs, but the second game looked a whole lot better. Combine the two and we'll talk about inclusion in a top 100 games list.

Immortal, The (Genesis): I never really understood this one. Cool concept but tough to play if you're not familiar with the play mechanics.

Jet Grind Radio (DC): Crazy Taxi was better, and more easily accessible. We all have this game to thank for the annoying cel-shading trend that's supposed to make polygonal characters look just like cartoons... but instead makes them look like polygons with a thick outline around them.

Jumpman (C64): Boy am I not into games in this genre. They're frustrating and unforgiving. If someone included Miner 2049'er in this list I'd give it a minus as well.

Kid Icarus (NES): Overrated, and not as professionally designed as other famous NES games. There's a reason they haven't made a sequel in nearly ten years, people.

King of Fighters '98 (Neo Geo): I'd much rather see '97 or '99 included on the list instead. KOF '98 always struck me as being contrived... so much so that SNK even wrote it out of the King of Fighters storyline.

Legend of Zelda, The (NES): No sir, didn't like it. I never warmed up to Zelda, especially this early version with cryptic puzzles and sterile graphics. The other ones are a little better... I can almost see why Ocarina of Time would be listed here.

Lode Runner (C64, Apple II, others): Beep beep! Whoops, wrong Runner. This Runner is wrong for this list, too... I don't have the patience to finish three quarters of a round only to have to do it all over again on the account of a single mistake. Why would anyone like that, anyway? I'll take Mr. Do!'s Castle instead of this, thanks.

Lunar: Silver Star Story (Sega CD): I dislike this game, but it does have a purpose... it served as the template for the similar, but greatly improved Grandia series.

Mario Party (N64): Nothing's as fun as bashing buttons until your thumbs bleed. Wait a minute, that's not fun at all!

Metal Slug 3 (Neo-Geo): Three Metal Slug games in one Top 100 list is overkill. I'm choosing Metal Slug 3 as the weakest link... for some reason, the zombies in the game take a zillion hits to kill, and that gets both frustrating and redundant. Even Metal Slug 4 was better than this.

Miner 2049'er (800): Wow! Frustration galore! Sign me up! Uh, no.

Mr. Driller (DC): Barely qualifies as a puzzle game thanks to its extreme simplicity. Now if you chose Mr. Driller on the Game Cube instead, that I could understand... it has more modes, each with clever new play mechanics.

Mr. Gimmick! (NES): An OK platformer is not good enough for a list of this magnitude.

Ms Pac-Man (7800): There are better versions of this game available, trust me. There's no reason to settle for this one.

Night Stalker (Intellivision): Enjoyable, but not as fun as Wizard of Wor.

Ninja Gaiden (NES): The only thing worse than watching your favorite arcade game devolve into some crappy Castlevania wannabee is watching everyone else get excited about it. Ninja Gaiden is another classic example of Nintendo's revisionist history... somehow, you just couldn't find "arcade translations" on the system which were actually, you know, arcade translations.

Ninja Gaiden 2 (NES): Less crappy than the first game, but still frustrating and annoying. The frustration is from bats and eagles knocking you into pits. The annoyance stems from the original "Ninja Gaiden" being popular enough to spawn a sequel.

Out of This World (PC / 3DO): Yes, please get it out of this world. Here's the side-scrolling equivalent of Dragon's Lair... make one wrong move and you're toast. Attention people of Earth: frustrating, rigid gameplay is not fun.

Pilotwings (SNES): This gimmicky flight simulator has aged so badly Nintendo won't even redesign it for the Game Boy Advance. Thank goodness good taste won out in the end over flashy Mode 7 effects and endless hype.

Pitfall II (5200): Granted, this was an early effort, but I've played better action/adventure games. Part of my indifference to this game stems from the fact that it inspired Super Pitfall. I've noticed scenes in both games that were very similar.

Pole Position II (7800): A good translation, but there are better arcade racing games out there.

Prince of Persia (Apple II, Amiga, others): Groundbreaking? Yes. Entertaining? Eh, well, maybe a little, but the pace is a little too plodding for my tastes.

Raiden (Jaguar): Looks like this is your last strike! Byeee! Don't forget to write! Also, take out a loan and buy some more original play mechanics... the whole shot/bomb thing has been done to death in a million other shooters.

Rainbow Islands (NES/PSX): Some Bubble Bobble games are excellent, and others... well, they're like this. The vertically scrolling rounds made the game somewhat awkward and distanced it from the other games in the series.

Rez (PS2): Too bad you can't hang this one on a museum wall. Rez always struck me as more of a work of art rather than a game... strip away the visuals and you've got a very plain shooter in the vein of Space Harrier.

Robotron: 2084 (7800): Again, there are better versions out there. The game kicks ass on the Saturn, and probably the Playstation too.

Rygar (NES): Weird, clumsy, and like Tecmo's other "gem" Ninja Gaiden, nothing at all like the arcade game. Kind of fun when you get used to the changes, but it doesn't get the gold medal in my opinion.

Shenmue (Dreamcast): Innovative, and more fun than expected, but slow and difficult to control.

Shining Force (Genesis): I'm not a Camelot fan, and this is one of the reasons why.

Slime World (Lynx): A freakishly weird adventure that's fun, but not incredible. The endless exploration is good for burning away a few brain cells when you're bored.

Solstice (NES): How hard can you possibly make an NES game? Eh, about this hard. The clumsy isometric perspective is tough to deal with, too.

Sonic & Knuckles (Genesis): It's pretty good, but I'd rather that one of the Game Boy Advance Sonic games were included instead. They're just as fun, and the graphics are crisper and more impressive.

Star Tropics (NES): Look, it's the Legend of Zel-Duh! A lobotomized version of Zelda with hip new characters isn't any more likely to entertain me than the real thing.

Streets of Rage (Genesis): I'd rather see Streets of Rage II on this list instead. The characters were larger and the game carried much more impact. The original looks like an NES game in comparison.

Super Bomberman 2 (SNES): Not the best of the Bomberman games, and there are plenty of them. Saturn Bomberman gets my vote as the best in this series.

Super Castlevania IV (SNES): Pick a Game Boy Advance version, any Game Boy Advance version. Whatever you choose, it'll be better than this. Here's another example of an early Super NES game that blows all the system's whistles and rings all its bells... but doesn't spend nearly as much time keeping the player entertained.

Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles IV (SNES): I'd rather have Turtles II: The Arcade Game if it's all the same to you.

Toe Jam & Earl (Genesis): I can't help but think of this game in the same light as ET. You wander around aimlessly, collecting stuff while weird Earthlings run out to harass you. The only thing missing are the pits.

Turmoil (2600): Hee hee, guess who gets the last vote? Sorry, but I don't like Turmoil much. It's too clumsy for a fast action shooter.

UN Squadron (SNES): It looks fantastic, but man is this game ever frustrating thanks to the semi rapid fire weapons and nerve-wracking klaxon that blows in your ears when you're hit.

Venture (ColecoVision): A so-so conversion of a so-so arcade game. The control is stiffer than it should be... Winky faces in the direction you point the joystick, THEN moves, instead of just running. The result is that you can't dodge an enemy at the last second, a feature most other shooters do offer.

Vib Ribbon (PSX): Overrated and hard to play. Weird stylistically, and not just because of the polygons... what the hell does Vibri keep turning into, anyway?

Wipeout (PSX): The sequel, as well as Wipeout 64, were better. Psynosis had the right idea, though... this is certainly a quantum leap ahead of F-Zero (two grades which I would probably give Nintendo's own futuristic racing game).

Zillion (SMS): Sega's answer to Metroid. Either that or insomnia... I can't tell which.

JR

[ubersaurus]

The 7800 version of robotron is on there because it not only uses the 2 joystick set up (which only other system can is 5200), but its also as fast paced at the arcade, and is thus the best arcade translation of the game.

Also, KOF 98 is the best one in that series due to a few factors-first, it has a very good game engine, secondly, it has the largest roster out of all of the games in the series, and third, somehow, it managed to be the most balanced out of the series. It didn't have a storyline just so they could get all those characters in it without coming up with some off the wall wackiness.

I'm not even going to get started on the bad mouthing of the heroic Mr. Driller...

[bargora]

I object!

Archon (C64/Atari 8-bit/NES): Crummy chess/action hybrid which was even worse on the NES, where I played it. Stupidly simplistic fighting makes this a total bore.
Archon WAS a lot better on the C64, but even the NES version is a great strategy game with finely balanced pieces. If you're GOOD you can take down the Dragon with a Knight (or three). You call the fighting simplistic? I call it elegant.


Doom II (PC): The original had a huge impact on the gaming industry, but what makes the sequel so different?
Doom II improved on Doom in every way. That would mean mostly level design and the new enemies, but the combat shotgun was a nice touch, too. I still sweat when I hear the Revenants scream.


Food Fight (7800): What Home Alone would have been if it had been a halfway decent (but not great) game instead of the garbage T*HQ gave us. Even the main character looks like Macaulay Calkin. Cute idea, but not as good as Robotron.
Food Fight rules. It rules, it rules, it rules. Nya nya nya nya nyaaaa. :P


Galactic Attack (Saturn): A reasonably well done shooter, but it's no Radiant Silvergun or Dodonpachi. The wimpy power up system and target lock on detracts from the game's appeal.
Galactic Attack (to borrow someone else's words) is the pinnacle of 16-bit shooter design, but lives on a 32-bit machine.

Sure, the power-up system basically just increases the power of your shot, rather than making it cover the screen. So there's no Batsugun-style "is there anything on the screen under my shots?" craziness. I don't see that as a problem (but I've always preferred concentrated forward shot to weak spread shot).

And instead of dodging spam or wack-ass shot patterns, you dodge bullets actually aimed at your ship. And the lock-on? The lock-on is the whole, er, point if you are a Greedy Pointmaster. Plus the opportunity to stop the assholes before they are a threat. It wouldn't be Layer Section without the layers.


Rez (PS2): Too bad you can't hang this one on a museum wall. Rez always struck me as more of a work of art rather than a game... strip away the visuals and you've got a very plain shooter in the vein of Space Harrier.
You are right, of course, but this game makes me feel really, really good when I play it, so it must be a fantastic game. Or am I flashing back? And I don't even have a Trance Vibrator.


Robotron: 2084 (7800): Again, there are better versions out there. The game kicks ass on the Saturn, and probably the Playstation too.
I agree that there are better versions. The Playstation version kicks serious ass, but it is a straight-up emulation of the arcade version. Playing it with a dual force is fantastic. But since Joe wants to leave arcade games out of it, should full emulations (rather than reprogrammed ports) be left out of it?

My failure to disagree with you regarding any of the other games should not be interpreted as agreement. Well, OK, I don't like Demon Attack either.

[WiseSalesman]

Maneki, there are more than a few games on your list I'd argue against, had I the time, but, instead, I'll just argue against one.


Ninja Gaiden (NES): The only thing worse than watching your favorite arcade game devolve into some crappy Castlevania wannabee is watching everyone else get excited about it. Ninja Gaiden is another classic example of Nintendo's revisionist history... somehow, you just couldn't find "arcade translations" on the system which were actually, you know, arcade translations.

And thank GOD. The arcade version of ninja gaiden was absolutely TERRIBLE in terms of gameplay, where as the NES "revision" feels dead on. Ryu jumps how I think he should jump, lands where I think he should land, and hits wha I tell him to hit. It's damn near side-scroller perfection. Sure, it's hard, but why should that keep a game off the list? I'm sure Radiant Silvergun's tough too.

Why do I get excited about Ninja Gaiden. It plays like I think all action sidescrollers should. It feels natural, and smooth, and the controls are instantly accessible (more than I can say for the sluggish control of the early castlevanias). In short, it's fun, I can play it over and over and not get bored. That makes it a candidate for Top 100 easy.

[le geek]

As long as we're voting I vote we keep it one thread. That being said I defend the following games... :)



Whoop, here it is:
(careful, hot buttons pressed inside!)

Jet Grind Radio (DC): Crazy Taxi was better, and more easily accessible. We all have this game to thank for the annoying cel-shading trend that's supposed to make polygonal characters look just like cartoons... but instead makes them look like polygons with a thick outline around them.

I disagree, Jet Grind is more fun that Crazy Taxi in the long run...


Legend of Zelda, The (NES): No sir, didn't like it. I never warmed up to Zelda, especially this early version with cryptic puzzles and sterile graphics. The other ones are a little better... I can almost see why Ocarina of Time would be listed here.

If any Zelda should stay on the list, this is the one.


Lode Runner (C64, Apple II, others): Beep beep! Whoops, wrong Runner. This Runner is wrong for this list, too... I don't have the patience to finish three quarters of a round only to have to do it all over again on the account of a single mistake. Why would anyone like that, anyway? I'll take Mr. Do!'s Castle instead of this, thanks.

While I like Mr. Do!'s Castle, Lode Runner really should stay for it's simple concept and brilliant execution.



Miner 2049'er (800): Wow! Frustration galore! Sign me up! Uh, no.
A great single screen platformer


Out of This World (PC / 3DO): Yes, please get it out of this world. Here's the side-scrolling equivalent of Dragon's Lair... make one wrong move and you're toast. Attention people of Earth: frustrating, rigid gameplay is not fun.
Hey what's wrong with having to figure something out? If anything OOTW has one flaw in that it's too short!



Pitfall II (5200): Granted, this was an early effort, but I've played better action/adventure games. Part of my indifference to this game stems from the fact that it inspired Super Pitfall. I've noticed scenes in both games that were very similar.
Whoa dude! While I prefer the original Pitfall, this really ought to stay!



Prince of Persia (Apple II, Amiga, others): Groundbreaking? Yes. Entertaining? Eh, well, maybe a little, but the pace is a little too plodding for my tastes.
Considering the level of animation, the crontrol is dead on perfect with a great balance of puzzle solving and action.



Rez (PS2): Too bad you can't hang this one on a museum wall. Rez always struck me as more of a work of art rather than a game... strip away the visuals and you've got a very plain shooter in the vein of Space Harrier.
I won't cry if it doesn't make the cut, but the game is quite cool and a bit more complex than space harrier... :)


My other two cents :)

Cheers,
Ben

[AB Positive]

I'm not someone that would get actually -angry- about this type of stuff, but I do admit I have some disagreements to make here. So, without further ado:



Castlevania II: Simon's Quest (NES): Symphony of the Night proved that Castlevania could work as an adventure game. Simon's Quest had the opposite effect. Lackluster level design and uninteresting gameplay drove a stake through the heart of this one.

well, let's start the defending session here, shall we? I find this choice interesting as this is the -only- Castlevania game I enjoyed. I couldn't stand the first one, or the third on the NES. Now I haven't played Symphony of the Night, but for NES titles, I consider this the very best. Blending just the right amount of RPG elements into the saga while having a rather great story (considering how well story can relate through the NES) makes this one of my all time favorites. Alright, next up:


Final Fantasy VII (PSX): Never have I played a darker, more boring RPG than this one. It's full of special effects, rendering, and other popular mid 90's buzzwords, but the one thing it lacks is fun.

I was worried when I made my fiancee play this game (so that she'd get Kingdom Hearts better) that I wouldn't find it as fun as I did once upon a time. Sure, the graphics helped sell this game back in the day, but the gameplay is glorious. So many side quests, a -deeply- involved storyline, and heart-wrenching moments (I nearly cried at the end of disc one even though I knew what was coming, my finacee actually did) make this part of my personal top five. I'm rather shocked by it's inclusion on your veto list. Next:


Jet Grind Radio (DC): Crazy Taxi was better, and more easily accessible. We all have this game to thank for the annoying cel-shading trend that's supposed to make polygonal characters look just like cartoons... but instead makes them look like polygons with a thick outline around them.

I rarely like cel-shading, but it seems to belong in this game. That aside, I cannot honestly believe -anyone- would compare this game to Crazy Taxi. The two games have very very little in common. This game really shows what happens when gameplay meets graphics and soundtrack to make a complete gaming experience. I was disappointed by JSRF, but the original is still one of my all time favorites. You'll notice this a lot in this defense post as all the ones I defend quite possibly would be my top ten all time list. Heh... next up:


King of Fighters '98 (Neo Geo): I'd much rather see '97 or '99 included on the list instead. KOF '98 always struck me as being contrived... so much so that SNK even wrote it out of the King of Fighters storyline.

I sort of agree here, but not really. Most people would put '98 in if they were only going to have one KoF. I would put 2000 as the best, but '98 as a close close second. '98 was when SNK showed they -finally- understood what they were doing gameplay wise. It was tight, the storyline does make some sense regardless of the continuity errors that now plague the series, plus... it's the first time King got -really really- sexy. If you're only using one KoF series, sure, knock off '98. But if two make it, it should be on here, along with 2000. Next up:


Legend of Zelda, The (NES): No sir, didn't like it. I never warmed up to Zelda, especially this early version with cryptic puzzles and sterile graphics. The other ones are a little better... I can almost see why Ocarina of Time would be listed here.

I honestly am trying hard not to laugh out loud at this. Not to be disrespectful, but this was one of THE reasons to own a NES. I just bought myself another copy to play though, and I still love it. My main issue with games is that years after the fact, they have to still be fun. This one fits that quality to a T. This, to be honest, was the most shocking veto you made to me. Oh well, again this is all about to each their own, but as I'm on a roll, here's another one :)


Pilotwings (SNES): This gimmicky flight simulator has aged so badly Nintendo won't even redesign it for the Game Boy Advance. Thank goodness good taste won out in the end over flashy Mode 7 effects and endless hype.

I'm crying that they won't port this to the GBA. I LOVED Pilotwings, and this game might possibly be a good definition of "Innovation". How many games, besides PW64 had this type of gameplay. Not many, which is a shame because I truly enjoy this style of game. I'm not being very articulate with why this game is so great, but it falls under that "I play this in 2003 and I still have loads of fun" category. Next up:


Shining Force (Genesis): I'm not a Camelot fan, and this is one of the reasons why.

I'm noticing the disliking of all my favorite RPGs going on here. While SF2 was probably the best of the three, Shining Force is one of the few 'series' titles that I'd put more than one of in there, along with Final Fantasy and Phantasy Star. Finally:


Toe Jam & Earl (Genesis): I can't help but think of this game in the same light as ET. You wander around aimlessly, collecting stuff while weird Earthlings run out to harass you. The only thing missing are the pits.

Wow, comparing this to ET. That's pretty harsh. I don't think it should be on the list myself, but I wouldn't go so far to compare it to ET, that's all. Heh.


so yeah, there's my two cents.

-AG

[Kid Fenris]

I was going disagree with you about Ninja Gaiden, but Wise nailed it already, so I'll just concur with everything he said. At least one of the NES Ninja Gaiden titles belongs on the list.



Axelay (SNES): Immensely overrated, gimmicky shooter that tries to be a next generation Gradius and fails. Miserably.

JR

Axelay has always struck me as one of the best shooters ever created. For one, it's full of good ideas, from the ever-present array of weapons to the unique damage system that doesn't always kill you with one hit. And then there are the clever stage layouts, the varieties of enemies, the inclusion of both side-scrolling and vertical levels, the huge, resourceful bosses, and the gorgeous images. Axelay has everything that a great shooter could need, and presents it better than all but a few of its kind.

I'm also opposed to yanking Contra III, Final Fantasy VII, Metal Slug 3, and a few others. Still, I agree with about half of your list. Most of them are good games, but with so many titles, something's gotta go.

[WiseSalesman]

Alright, I have neither the time, nor the patience to debate each of these on their own merits, so I'm making a simple list of the games I agree should be removed, and the ones I disagree on. If a game is not listed, you may assume I haven't played it enough to make a fair judgment. This applies to about 1/3 of MNeko's list. If called upon, I will defend each game on here on it's own merits, but if it's not necessary, I won't waste my time. I'm also willing to defend my reasoning for removing games. Here we go.

Note: These are out of order, and may not be spelled the same as in the list above (I scrawled the ones I wanted to on a note pad, and am retyping them now.)

Agree - these don't belong in the Top 100
Boy and His Blob, A (NES)
Out of this World (SNES)
Ninja Giaden II: The Dark Sword of Chaos (NES)
Contra III: The Alien Wars (SNES)
Double Dragon (GEN)
Dragon's Lair (any system)
Final Fantasy VII (PSX)
House of the Dead 2 (DC)
Kid Icarus (NES)
Mario Party (N64)
Mr. Driller (DC)
Metal Slug 3 (NEO)
Rainbow Islands (NES)
Shenmue (DC)
Solstice (NES)
Sonic & Knuckles (GEN)
Super Castlevania IV (SNES)
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles IV: Turtles in Time (SNES)

Disagree- these BELONG in the Top 100 list
Castlevania 2: Simon's Quest (NES)
Contra (NES)
Doom II (PC)
Jet Grind Radio (DC)
The Legend of Zelda (NES)
Ninja Gaiden (NES)
Pilotwings (SNES)
Prince of Persia (any)
Rygar (NES)
Star Tropics (NES)
Streets of Rage (GEN)
Super Bomberman 2 (SNES)

Okay, so I HAVE to comment on that last one. You think SATURN Bomberman is better than SBM2?! Have you ever played them with four players each? I can tell you for certain that SBM2 beats the hell out of Saturn Bomberman in that respect. I liked everyone being equally matched, and having the ability to both throw and kick at the same time (provided they found both powerups). I also thought that the single player quest was stronger in SMB2.

[ArnoldRimmer83]

Contra (NES): An overrated, immensely frustrating shooter. They're all worthless as far as I'm concerned. Luckily, Gunstar Heroes takes this lump of coal and presses it into a shining diamond.



I always thought Contra's difficulty was blown out of proportion. The game is nowhere near as impossible as everyone makes it out to be. It takes some practice and patience, but this game is very beatable without the 30 life code. Contra and Super C are 2 of my favorite Nes games. I actually prefer them over Gunstar Heroes to be honest.

[Sylentwulf]

I also have quite a few I'd like to argue, but let me just state that Final Fantasy 7 WILL be in the top 100. If it's not, a lot of people will just dismiss the entire list as garbage. Not only was it an unbelievably GREAT game with the most in depth story of any console RPG, it was utterly groundbreaking as the first Epic 3-D RPG, and single-handedly secured sony as number 1 and revitalized the game industry (for me, and many others at least)

[AB Positive]

I concur with the above. He explained it -much- better than I did. I wish I were more eloquent. Argh.

[jaydubnb]

As much as I hate dissecting posts on messageboards with many "your quote/my response" elements (as it can come off as being overly analytical or an attack) I think I have to in this case....let the games begin! :)


Axelay (SNES): Immensely overrated, gimmicky shooter that tries to be a next generation Gradius and fails. Miserably.


This I strongly disagree with. Axelay was prehaps the best shooter that was released on the SNES: great visuals, music, dead on controls, and was a load of fun to play IMO. If the gimmicky aspects youre refering to was the use of Mode 7 on the vert levels, I'd say it was less gimmick and more of an attempt to create a more realistic type of piolting where items on the horizon scroll towards you. Gimmicky use of Mode 7 was at the end of Super Mario World....did Bowser -really- have to scale and zoom upon defeat?




Contra (NES): An overrated, immensely frustrating shooter. They're all worthless as far as I'm concerned. Luckily, Gunstar Heroes takes this lump of coal and presses it into a shining diamond.


Best run and gun game ever: I think the level design surpasses GH easily, although GH has the awesome weapon combos. Contra HAS to be on the list.




Contra III: Alien Wars (SNES): Better than the previous games or the lame Genesis version, but still hard to consider one of the best games ever. The Game Boy Advance version will dampen any enthusiasm you once had for this title.


Here we agree...kinda :) I don't think it's better than the original, but I agree, cut this crap title from the list. The Mode 7 overhead stages KILLED this game. I probably feel towards this game how you feel towards Axelay lol

[WiseSalesman]

Final fantasy VII may have been the first completely 3D rpg, but, in someone else' words, that doesn't make it one of the greatest games of all times, it simply makes it one of the most revolutionary. Also, the fact that "some people will dismiss this list outright if FFVII's not on it" is not a valid reason to include it. Some people will dismiss this list if DOA:Extreme Beach Volleyball isn't on it. That doesn't mean we should at that to please them.

Also, keep in mind that FFVII was not the first RPG to feature 3D elements. Wild Arms was.

[digitalpress]

I sure hope those of you having this side-debate have expressed your "belongs/doesn't belong" comments in the proper thread as well. I really don't want to have to wonder which thread I got which info from should a challenge arise later. Also I'm not smart enough to manage two lists of pros and cons.

[Sylentwulf]

Final fantasy VII may have been the first completely 3D rpg, but, in someone else' words, that doesn't make it one of the greatest games of all times, it simply makes it one of the most revolutionary. Also, the fact that "some people will dismiss this list outright if FFVII's not on it" is not a valid reason to include it. Some people will dismiss this list if DOA:Extreme Beach Volleyball isn't on it. That doesn't mean we should at that to please them.
Also, keep in mind that FFVII was not the first RPG to feature 3D elements. Wild Arms was.

Well, DOA volleyball sucked. I didn't say FF7 had great graphics, and therefor it should be included. I gave several reasons, and not nearly HALF the reasons I could have given. It also had an UNBELIEVEable soundtrack by nobuo uematsu, had jaw dropping FMV's, a TON of RELEVANT sidequests, which helped the story, were optional, and were actually FUN and challenging. The chocobo breeding and racing was MORE than a full game in itself!

It signified Final Fantasy's return to gaming, and exploded across the world, becoming the U.S.A. number 1 selling console RPG of all time VERY quickly, and introduced TONS of people who had never played an rpg to the genre. I could go on listing the pro's of this game for hours, but I think that's anough.

Don't dismiss this as "It had good graphics and 3-D, so what" again.

[WiseSalesman]

You know what, this is all looking very familliar. We've done this before, and, rather than let another thread be sidetracked by you and me arguing, I'm just going to quit. Don't interpret this as giving up....I can list a con for every pro you list (hell, some of your pros ARE cons for me)....but it's just repetitive, and unecessary. I'll vote against it in the actual thread, you'll speak up in defense of it, and we'll see how it fairs with everyone else' opinions, even though, in this manner, I will probably lose my battle to keep it out of the top 100.

[IntvGene]

Is it just me, or are we starting to tread water here?

I think the five strikes idea is good, but it doesn't seem like we have enough people voting. I've made my choices, I don't really want to have people making their seconds yet. I know its been said, but I wish some of the veterans of this board would help us out here too.

This is just an idea, and it may need tweaking, but can we concentrate on a certain number of titles each day? We can argue about those, and at the end of the day, Joe can decide what stays (at least to get some of the numbers down). So, if we do 10-20 (more?) games each day, in a week or so, we should have cut the number down. It's just right now, we're arguing about too many games. This way, whoever wants to argue, gets a chance and their say. And, we should be consistently making some progress. Any thoughts? The sidetracking should only be limited to that day's arguing and then we move on. We would still be using the five strikes idea, but just going at it more methodically.

I am not looking to boss people around, just looking for progress. :)

[Sylentwulf]

Hey wiseman, I didn't say YOU had to like it, but it IS a great game, there are plenty of games I HATE in the top 100, But I can see how maybe someone else likes it. I don't like peppers either, but I don't go around yelling at Pizza places and other restaurants.

[buttasuperb]

Axelay (SNES): Immensely overrated, gimmicky shooter that tries to be a next generation Gradius and fails. Miserably.


I agree that it's not a top 100 game, but to say it failed miserable is ridiculous.


Kid Icarus (NES): Overrated, and not as professionally designed as other famous NES games. There's a reason they haven't made a sequel in nearly ten years, people.


Sorry, but Kid Icarus is one of the greatest games ever. Top 20-30 game, IMO. If it doesn't get on the top 100 list, it makes the list worthless.


Metal Slug 3 (Neo-Geo): Three Metal Slug games in one Top 100 list is overkill. I'm choosing Metal Slug 3 as the weakest link... for some reason, the zombies in the game take a zillion hits to kill, and that gets both frustrating and redundant. Even Metal Slug 4 was better than this.


Wow, just wow. Slug 3 is widely regarded as the best in the series and overall just a top notch game. Thanks for the laugh with the Slug 4 being better than 3 comment, you made my day. LOL

[WiseSalesman]

Hey wiseman, I didn't say YOU had to like it, but it IS a great game

And therein lies the problem. That's a matter of opinion, and I disagree with you.


I don't like peppers either, but I don't go around yelling at Pizza places and other restaurants.

No, but would you put them in a list of the top 10 pizza toppings? I didn't go yelling at square about FF7. You're comparing apples and oranges.

[Sylentwulf]

I don't like peppers either, but I don't go around yelling at Pizza places and other restaurants.

No, but would you put them in a list of the top 10 pizza toppings? I didn't go yelling at square about FF7. You're comparing apples and oranges.[/quote]

YES, I WOULD put peppers in the top 10 if I thought it belonged there, even though I despise them personally. If I hated pepperoni with all my heart, I would still INSIST that it BE IN the top 10 topping for Pizza, because I know it IS a great topping, belongs up there, and tons of people think it's the greatest thing of all time. 10 billion pepperoni pizza lovers CAN'T be wrong.

[WiseSalesman]

YES, I WOULD put peppers in the top 10 if I thought it belonged there, even though I despise them personally.

Hmm....you're weird, then! :D Keep in mind, that Top 100 doesn't necessarily mean most liked, most influential, or most revolutionary.

[Sylentwulf]

True, but when it's all three, then yes, it does :-D

[WiseSalesman]

True, but when it's all three, then yes, it does :-D

I would postulate that we are supposed to be voting for games that we peronally liked best. I'll not register my vote for a game based on the fact that a lot of other people liked it.