PS3 PSN PSX Games visually gimped? -__-;;

[Dangerboy]

That was a hell of a three letter trifecta ...

Anyway, I downloaded the first PSX game I wouldn't have mind having at the ready, Street Fighter Alpha. However, upon playing it,it looked wrong, like, really blurry. Thinking it was just me, I broke out my camera and real version of the game to compare, and was rather shocked.

Evidence:
http://www.game-rave.com/ryu.jpg

I can not believe it's that blurry. It even seemed smaller in scale after playing the real disc version.

I can't understand why there would be a need to blur it since the PS3 itself already has that feature. The 2D games look AMAZING in HDMI, so this confused the heck out of me.


So, are PS1 PSN games...emulated? (Rather than a Rom playing off the hardware's BC)

If it matters, I'm on a 60gig.

[heybtbm]

A quick check of the PS1 disc version SotN vs. PSN downloadable SotN shows no blurring. It's the only disc/download combo I have to compare. I have a 60 gig too. Strange.

[EricRyan34]

I noticed the same thing not just with the downloadable games, but my actual games too. kinda made me sad. Im running them on an 80 gig.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

If I had to venture a guess, SFA1 is COMPRESSED by Capcom, as I transferred it to my unmodded PSP after downloading, and it seems a hell of a lot smaller than most PS1 disk images I make for my firmware modded PSP w/popstation.

Would that effect the quality of the resolution?

[mills]

If I had to venture a guess, SFA1 is COMPRESSED by Capcom, as I transferred it to my unmodded PSP after downloading, and it seems a hell of a lot smaller than most PS1 disk images I make for my firmware modded PSP w/popstation.

Would that effect the quality of the resolution?

this is because popstation compresses ps1 ISO's up to 9 times smaller the original file size by default.

[roushimsx]

this is because popstation compresses ps1 ISO's up to 9 times smaller the original file size by default.

Yea, but he's not talking about POPstation being smaller than the PSN version, silly.

I'm with Frankie in blaming Capcom. In fact, when in doubt, it's Capcom screwing up something without telling anyone about it. They're good at that.

[Damaramu]

Hey, someone ought submit this to Kotaku or something. If they run the story and it gets enough attention, maybe we can get an official answer from Sony or Capcom.....

[roushimsx]

Hey, someone ought submit this to Kotaku or something. If they run the story and it gets enough attention, maybe we can get an official answer from Sony or Capcom.....

Grab some direct captures off of a PS3 and PSP beforehand, though. Blurry camera shots aren't going to cut it if you want to do proper muckrakin'. Frankie can properly cover the PSP side; DB - do you still have a capture card to hook your stuff up to? Svideo is no HDMI, but it sure beats a digicam.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

Unfortunately, I don't have a capture card, but here's the difference in file size between the PSN version of SFA1 and a "typical" PS1 ISO conversion to Popstation.

PSN SFA1 = 79 freakin' MB!!!

Average size PS1 ISO post Popstation Conversion = 598 MB!!!

In my opinion, this is pretty clearly a case of Capcom compressing the crap out of a PSN/PS1 title to suit an ultra-budget release.

I downloaded it, because, frankly, for $5 it passes the time agreeably, and I'm not that put-off by the low-fi visuals to be honest.

I wish it was SFA2 or 3 ... but it was a nice double bill with Bionic Commando Re-Armed.

So.

Can anybody else confirm/deny my suspicion that the graphics/resolutions/textures being compressed or converted to lo-fi would be the cause of the "blurring" vs. the actual disc running or an ISO, with likely is around 5 times the file size?

[Juganawt]

Judging from the pics, it looks more like a matter of the PSN version being upscaled to suit 720p / 1080p. PS1 disc game upscaling is nowhere near as blurry. I've noticed that the emulation on a lot of PSN games are off too. Command & Conquer for example runs faster than the original disc version, and games like G-Police and Motorhead have a much more visible "mesh" on smoke effects.

And yes, PSN PS1 games are running on Sony's POPS emulator...hence why they can be played even on the 40gb systems where PS2 games can't.

[roushimsx]

Unfortunately, I don't have a capture card, but here's the difference in file size between the PSN version of SFA1 and a "typical" PS1 ISO conversion to Popstation.

You can use Custom Firmware Extender (http://dl.qj.net/Custom-Firmware-Extender-v2.2-PSP-Homebrew-Applications/pg/12/fid/16011/catid/151) to snag some direct screen captures off of your PSP between the two versions :)

[Juganawt]

Unfortunately, I don't have a capture card, but here's the difference in file size between the PSN version of SFA1 and a "typical" PS1 ISO conversion to Popstation.

PSN SFA1 = 79 freakin' MB!!!

Average size PS1 ISO post Popstation Conversion = 598 MB!!!

Don't forget that PSN games when downloaded are in a zip-style format, and when installed are actually bigger than the initial download. It'd probably be around 110mb uncompressed and ready to play.

The rest of the size difference is because of redbook audio. Take redbook/wav out and replace with MP3, and there's your file size difference.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

Don't forget that PSN games when downloaded are in a zip-style format, and when installed are actually bigger than the initial download. It'd probably be around 110mb uncompressed and ready to play.

The rest of the size difference is because of redbook audio. Take redbook/wav out and replace with MP3, and there's your file size difference.

79 MB is the installed file size, I'd have no way of knowing what it is pre-install.

[Leo_A]

Judging from the pics, it looks more like a matter of the PSN version being upscaled to suit 720p / 1080p. PS1 disc game upscaling is nowhere near as blurry. I've noticed that the emulation on a lot of PSN games are off too. Command & Conquer for example runs faster than the original disc version, and games like G-Police and Motorhead have a much more visible "mesh" on smoke effects.

And yes, PSN PS1 games are running on Sony's POPS emulator...hence why they can be played even on the 40gb systems where PS2 games can't.

Disc or PSN PS1 releases are all emulated using the same emulator on all PS3 consoles. There should be zero difference if the games are identical, though it appears Capcom must've done something to the PSN release. Any speed differences between PSN or PSOne disc is your imagination, they all use the same emulator.

[G-Boobie]

Disc or PSN PS1 releases are all emulated using the same emulator on all PS3 consoles. There should be zero difference if the games are identical, though it appears Capcom must've done something to the PSN release. Any speed differences between PSN or PSOne disc is your imagination, they all use the same emulator.

It may not be imagination, actually: emulators are never perfect. Any forum dedicated to emulation or hacking has a sticky thread listing compatibility between games and emulators.

[Leo_A]

I don't understand what your talking about, we're talking about differences between Street Fighter between the PSN release of the PSOne classic, and a original retail PSOne disc release, both running on the PS3.

Either way you choose, the game is emulated using the same Sony PSOne emulator included with the PS3. The emulator can't be the explanation for there being a difference between Street Fighter on disc or download, since its a identical emulator either way you play it. There is no PSOne hardware in any PS3, every disc or downloadable PSOne title is running under the same Sony emulator. And that was the entire point of my post, I never said anything about the emulator not necessarily being perfect.

If he is noticing differences between the PSN release of a title like Command & Conquer, and a original PSOne disc, it isn't because of the emulator because that factor is identical for both scenarios. The only explanation is they've uploaded a different build of the game than he has on disc, such as it appears Capcom did here with Street Fighter and compressed music and apparantly compressed textures when compared to the original cd release.

I suppose you might see slightly improved loading times for a PSN release on your PS3's HD versus playing it off a cd, but that's it for differences (Assuming identical games).

[slapdash]

Possibly it's dithered differently? Note that it's blurrier, but you also don't see pixels with as sharp edges as the original. But I would also think that would be in the emulator, not the media itself, so...

[Arthur-Otaku]

Judging from the pics, it looks more like a matter of the PSN version being upscaled to suit 720p / 1080p. PS1 disc game upscaling is nowhere near as blurry. I've noticed that the emulation on a lot of PSN games are off too. Command & Conquer for example runs faster than the original disc version, and games like G-Police and Motorhead have a much more visible "mesh" on smoke effects.

And yes, PSN PS1 games are running on Sony's POPS emulator...hence why they can be played even on the 40gb systems where PS2 games can't.


Psone looks like crap upscalled in ps3 system with lcd hdmi, I just add that most ps2 games looks bad too, looks much better in analog crt with component cable. Just play god of war 2 in both settings to see what I'm saying. Maybe the differences on smoke effects are because the type of tv that are you using and not the emulation

But this is a comparison between disc version and file version, looks easily that disc version is sharper with same ps3 config settings and both smooth off, it's very strange, if games are same must look same. My opnion is that capcom added some filter on game because lcd screens adds too much sharp in the 2d pixels

[Poofta!]

Psone looks like crap upscalled in ps3 system with lcd hdmi, I just add that most ps2 games looks bad too, looks much better in analog crt with component cable. Just play god of war 2 in both settings to see what I'm saying. Maybe the differences on smoke effects are because the type of tv that are you using and not the emulation

just wanted to second this. some games fared better than others, but overall, on my 1080p tv... most look pretty bad (ps1 looks like a lego orgy, ps2 not too bad).

as for the psn vs disk debate, maybe the psn download automatically smoothes it? try comparing them after you smoothed the disk version.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

While everybody else can harp on the "emulation" being the culprit, I still think the file sizes are a STRONG indicator of something (though I'm not exactly sure what).

Here, let's see if this makes any sense.

If you were to run an file size optimzation on a photo in a graphics program like Photoshop, it's going to keep the image the the same PIXEL x PIXEL SIZE, but reduce any elements that increase the overall file size.

In most cases you're left with a passable, but graphically lower-resolution product.

In the case of this game, the file sizes are SO drastically different, I still suspect that Capcom simply ran some heavy compression/optimzation processes on the disc image to get it down in size which caused to drop in resolution.

I still have yet to hear a better explanation, just look at those numbers, the PSN file size is close to 6 times smaller than the ISO of the actual disc.

[Dangerboy]

Okay guys, new set of images but with a twist.

I downloaded PSN Tekken 2 to have a Polygon based game to compare as well. Some interesting things popped up, and this included some PSP testing as well.

Here's the new S-Video Direct Feed of Ryu, screen captured through VideoGlide using Dazzle. It's screen cap isn't the best but it's what I had at the moment. I also added in the original "off hdmi" screen photos for reference. I love that the HDMI photo is still better than an s-video screen cap.

http://www.game-rave.com/ryu2.jpg

Here's Tekken 2

http://www.game-rave.com/tek2.jpg

It should be noted that Tekken 2's download file size was 485 megs, which sounds about right for a PSX CD of this variety.

Now, while the above is food for fodder, something interesting happened when I transferred both of them to my PSP; Street Fighter Alpha isn't 'complete' - there are no sound clips in the transition screens (the Z-beam coming across, the spot where both fighters images pop up, etc). The music only kicks in when you actually get to the round. Bear in mind on the PS3 this music is present.

Tekken 2's music was fine.

Seems like the compression theory holds the most water, as well as the PSN game library is on a case-per-case basis on what oddities are hidden in the download.

In a separate instance, as far as the "Lego" orgies go, I think it depends on the HDMI monitor and the game. As mentioned, SF Alpha, as well as FF7 and Raiden Project all looked amazing. However, MGS and Beyond the Beyond had the lego thing going. From what I can tell, the less "elbow grease" that was used in a game, and the more it was programmed without "visual trick" the better it looks.

Though my visual judgment might be biased; I'm a graphic designer and I *love* seeing every pixel.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

I had mentioned in another post somewhere when I first downloaded SFA1 that it was audio gimped when ported to PSP, and I sent a report on that to Sony and Capcom.

[Kitsune Sniper]

Does the PSP have stereo audio output via its internal speakers? I usually run into missing sound effects on my PS2 because the games default to stereo (I always switch them to mono). Maybe that happened here too.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

Just checked, and changing the sound output to mono does not correct the missing audio for the game. :(

[Poofta!]

Re: Dangerboy's study

it seems my hunch was correct, i believe the psn downloads automatically use the ps3's smoothing feature. as it looks identical after you smooth the psx disk manually.

i have to admit i didnt test too extensively ps1 games on ps3, in fact i didnt try the ones you said looked amazing. i did try "parasite eve" - a game which i remember thinking was the best looking game ever when it first came out, and on the ps3, it looks downright ugly and unplayable. (for the record i have a 1080p JVC 37" tv, it gets amazing colors and renders in anything else i run, uncluding upconverted dvds).

Crusader: No Remorse also looked quite bad, but a lot more playable. i know its a sprite game though however Rayman looked damn good