final fantasy n64?

[mailman187666]

I was cleaning out my basement and I came across a random gaming magazine from about 1995. It was when the N64 was still Ultra 64. Well within' some of the pages that included info about the system and its games was a screenshot of an N64 final fantasy. All it was was a couple characters on what looked like a blue, wireframe background of some sort. This must have been before square and Nintendo parted ways for a while. Has anybody heard of this or remember anything about it? I wish they woulda stuck with nintendo, but parts 7-9 may have never made it out if that was the case.

[Yukio]

I think that Nintendo delayed to much the N64 Disk-Drive and Square changed the project to be used on Sony Playstation CD-ROM XA platform ... Originally the CD-ROM XA (SONY, Philips, Microsoft) and the older 3 1/2 inch Disk Driver were projects made by SONY and others.

Another trouble was that Enix also changed the Dragon Quest project to the Playstation, with this two of the most popular franchising were not exclusives anymore (well, Dragon Quest was exclusively on SONY Playstation). Final Fantasy got versions for SONY Playstation and Microsoft Windows 95 ...

[chrisbid]

look up final fantasy N64 on youtube, there are videos of the tech demos of the game

[dao2]

7 was originally bound for the n64, so it woulda been out. How good it would have been i dunno :P

[MrSparkle]

i for one would have preferred an n64 release over the psx release we got.

[mailman187666]

i for one would have preferred an n64 release over the psx release we got.

the visuals may have been a bit better, but I don't know about the music and cutscenes. I think a regular n64 cart would not have been able to store what was necissary.

[Zebbe]

With the cancellation of the Nintendo Play Station, Square had to cut 70% of Secret of Mana. That was probably the first seed to what later grew to have Square switch over to Sony's disc-based console (which was, ironically, the PlayStation ;)), and add to what made Nintendo lose that console war. It was obviously a better choice, a game of three-disc size just won't do on cartridges, nor did RPGs in general during that era. Just look at the N64 library and compare it to the one of the PS...

[MrSparkle]

oh it definitely wouldnt have fit onto a cart would have had to have been a disk drive release. i've said it before and i'll say it again. Flat Shaded Polys for the win!

*the graphics are what hold me back from setting into ff7 again. Never quite made it out of the city always wandering around bumping into things and whatnot. I'm definitely a gameplay over graphics kind of guy but this game tried too hard to push the limits too early on and as a result winds up looking cluttered and confusing.*

[PapaStu]

http://www.lostlevels.org/200510/

Lost Level's article on this is by far the best and non-speculative i've read. Go there, get your learn on.

[Borman]

http://www.lostlevels.org/200510/

Lost Level's article on this is by far the best and non-speculative i've read. Go there, get your learn on.

Im sad it took this long to come up. The game was never on the Nintendo 64. It was never Final Fantasy VII. Just a tech demo on expensive equipment basically

[Yukio]

Actually the Nintendo "Super Nintendo CD-ROM" and later the Ultra64 (with Hard Disk or removable media) would be able to play streaming movie. Another game that has trouble on the finished N64 was the arcade game Killer Instinct. Sure the Nintendo 64 Disk-Drive was even less flexible and probably more expensive than regular ZIP Drives or even the LS-120 3 1/2 disks ...

The delays on Nintendo hardware had a very bad effect on the sales of concurrent systems.Main the 3DO, Neo-Geo CD and even the SEGA Saturn ...

[chrisbid]

With the cancellation of the Nintendo Play Station, Square had to cut 70% of Secret of Mana. That was probably the first seed to what later grew to have Square switch over to Sony's disc-based console (which was, ironically, the PlayStation ;)), and add to what made Nintendo lose that console war. It was obviously a better choice, a game of three-disc size just won't do on cartridges, nor did RPGs in general during that era. Just look at the N64 library and compare it to the one of the PS...

i wonder how many people still marvel at the Playstation-era FMVs, then turn around and bitch about the horrible FMV games on the Sega CD and 3DO

its the same friggin thing

[Yukio]

i wonder how many people still marvel at the Playstation-era FMVs, then turn around and bitch about the horrible FMV games on the Sega CD and 3DO

its the same friggin thing

There was not much difference between the games (same titles) on various systems ... But the 3DO has a optional MPEG FMV card to play full movies. The Playstation lacked this sort of thing but had hardware decoding of JPEG Movie that was much smother than the ones on the concurrent systems. Even the SEGA 32X CD has some nice FMV games !!!

Also, older system had support for CD+G. This was great for Karaoke discs with subtitles of the songs. There was even some promotional discs.

The official Kodak Photo CD book has a Photo CD that is playable on Real 3DO Multi Media Systems ...

In the opposite hand, 'people have wrote and said' very bad things about the DVD decoding of the Playstation 2 and Playstation 3 ...

[Kid Fenris]

A game composed entirely of grainy, live-action video clips from a d-list movie? A game with 50 minutes of CG video and forty hours of traditional gameplay? They're the SAME THING, folks! Hyuck!

[Yukio]

Dance Dance Revolution ...

[chrisbid]

A game composed entirely of grainy, live-action video clips from a d-list movie? A game with 50 minutes of CG video and forty hours of traditional gameplay? They're the SAME THING, folks! Hyuck!

50 minutes of movies with zero gameplay versus 50 minutes of movies with poor gameplay is the same thing... theyre movies, not games

[Kid Fenris]

A two-minute cutscene in an otherwise capably designed game? This ruins EVERYTHING!


50 minutes of movies with zero gameplay versus 50 minutes of movies with poor gameplay is the same thing...

If you honestly believe this, you're pretty stupid.

[chrisbid]

A two-minute cutscene in an otherwise capably designed game? This ruins EVERYTHING!




A 2 minute movie doesn't ruin a game, but it doesnt enhance it either.

the topic is about Final Fantasy on the N64. The point being made is the N64 could've handled the Gameplay in FF VII just fine. Had the cut scenes been produced in real time instead of CG, would this have really taken away from the game? I say no...

[Kid Fenris]

Yes, Final Fantasy VII would've worked on the Nintendo 64 if Final Fantasy VII had been a drastically different and visually inferior game. Take THAT, Sony!

[chrisbid]

Yes, Final Fantasy VII would've worked on the Nintendo 64 if Final Fantasy VII had been a drastically different and visually inferior game. Take THAT, Sony!

drastically different how?

gameplay?
story?



visually inferior?

character models and enemies?
static CG backgrounds? (DKC on the SNES had these)


the only difference between the two platforms would be the cut scenes, real time cut scenes (like in Zelda OOT) would've presented the story just as well as CG movies of varying quality on the PSX.


i liked the final FF VII product on the playstation. however, the CG movies did not add much to the experience. i also depise the trend that began with every game produced for the PSX after FF VII, every game had to have obligatory CG movies that did nothing for gameplay. that trend was the bastard child of early 90's FMV games that are universally panned for being more movie than game.

[jcalder8]

http://www.lostlevels.org/200510/

Lost Level's article on this is by far the best and non-speculative i've read. Go there, get your learn on.
Thanks for the link, it was a great read.

[boatofcar]

50 minutes of movies with zero gameplay versus 50 minutes of movies with poor gameplay is the same thing...

Which is why FFVII was such a crushing failure, just like the 3DO, right?

[NayusDante]

The way I heard it, Square issued the "FF6 CGI" project, as it's often called, as a practice assignment. Yes, SGI developed the graphics processor in the N64, but it was underpowered compared to their standard workstation systems at the time.

I honestly don't think that FF6 CGI is a valid "N64 tech demo." The fact that input is done with mouse gestures indicates that it was meant as an SGI demo, not an N64 demo. The only advantages of this exercise were to learn what the basic platform was like, in terms of content development and graphical presentation. The N64 hardware wasn't finalized yet, so Square just wanted to see what the possibilities MIGHT be.

The choice to go with PlayStation gave a hit to 3D, but look at the 2D in the game. If they had gone with cartrige, not only would video be impossible (in any extensive use), but the backgrounds would have taken up most of the cartrige. An N64 FF7 would have had to have more gourad-shaded models (as if there weren't enough already), and low-poly environments instead of high-resolution pre-rendered ones. Then again, 3D models could have been replaced with sprites, giving a presentation similar to games like Ys 6 and Xenogears. THAT would have been pretty cool.

[chrisbid]

Which is why FFVII was such a crushing failure, just like the 3DO, right?


i guess you didnt bother to read what i wrote later in the thread

[Kid Fenris]

the only difference between the two platforms would be the cut scenes, real time cut scenes (like in Zelda OOT) would've presented the story just as well as CG movies of varying quality on the PSX.

Let's put this in perspective. You're saying that the game engine of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, a 1998 game which looks jagged and lacking in detail at its best (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O60GygEZP14&feature=related), would have conveyed the same impact as this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5Y6Sza8Nt0) by 1997's technical standards.

Furthermore, cramming all of the backgrounds into a Nintendo 64 cartridge would've been technically unfeasible, and establishing character interaction with low-detail polygon backdrops would've greatly changed the game's feel. If Final Fantasy VII were a Nintendo 64 game, it would not look or play like its PlayStation incarnation. You can argue that it might've been better all you like, but it would not be the same game.


i also depise the trend that began with every game produced for the PSX after FF VII, every game had to have obligatory CG movies that did nothing for gameplay. that trend was the bastard child of early 90's FMV games that are universally panned for being more movie than game.

No, that trend has its roots in Lunar, Ys, and similar games that put animated, non-interactive cutscenes in otherwise standard games. In fact, it even hearkens back to Ninja Gaiden and other 8-bit games that simulated movie-like narrative techniques with sprites. Certain games have aimed for cinematic storytelling since the 1980s, and the FMV game movement of the '90s was nothing but a cul-de-sac of failure that had little influence on the following generation.

[boatofcar]

the FMV game movement of the '90s was nothing but a cul-de-sac of failure that had little influence on the following generation.

Wow, well put!

[chrisbid]

you're trying to have it both ways, you say

- FMV games suck (we agree)
- FMV as a side show rocks the casbah and makes an ordinary game exceptional


what i'm trying to say is a game is a game and a movie is a movie.

Dragon's Lair is not a great game, but the animation is great. It makes a great movie with a little bone of interactivity thrown in.

Final Fantasy VII is a great game, with or without the FMVs. After a playthrough, most people want to skip the movies and get on with the game.

Load up a random playstation game, there is likely a CG movie. in the playstation's heyday, lots of suckers believed the playstation was producing those graphics in real time, when in fact it was a movie of graphics produced by a high-end graphics computer.

[Kid Fenris]

you're trying to have it both ways, you say

- FMV games suck (we agree)
- FMV as a side show rocks the casbah and makes an ordinary game exceptional

I've never claimed the latter. I am of the opinion that FMV, like any other form of cutscene, has value only if used properly. When they are executed well, cutscenes can greatly enhance the scope and personality of an already well-made game. When executed poorly, cutscenes either clog up a good game or further degrade a mediocre one.

[Rob2600]

You're saying that the game engine of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, a 1998 game which looks jagged and lacking in detail at its best (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O60GygEZP14&feature=related), would have conveyed the same impact as this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5Y6Sza8Nt0) by 1997's technical standards.

I just watched the Ocarina of Time video you linked to. The graphics don't look jagged at all. In fact, they look quite good, especially considering the game was released a decade ago. There's lots of detail. Look at the character models close up (Ganondorf, for example) and then look at the models in FFVII. There's no comparison.

Sometimes I wonder if people know what words like jagged and pixelated really mean.


I also watched the FFVII video you linked to. What's funny is the real-time cinema scenes in Ocarina of Time have a higher frame rate than the prerendered FMV in FFVII. Go figure! :)

I know FMV was all the rage back in the late 1990s, but I always preferred real-time cinema scenes. Unlike FMV, real-time scenes reflected actual in-game conditions. For example, if my ship's wing got blown off in Star Fox 64, it wasn't magically fixed in the cinema scene.

[Kid Fenris]

I just watched the Ocarina of Time video you linked to. The graphics don't look jagged at all. In fact, they look quite good, especially considering the game was released a decade ago. There's lots of detail. Look at the character models close up (Ganondorf, for example) and then look at the models in FFVII. There's no comparison.

Sometimes I wonder if people know what words like jagged and pixelated really mean.


You apparently don't. Look at Link's hood at 1:01. Look at Ganon's ear at 2:45. Tell me that's not jagged and primitive-looking. And take a good look at the environments. As with most Nintendo 64 games stitched together with polygons, there's an obvious lack of detail. Do you seriously think the Nintendo 64 could have pulled off that opening footage from Final Fantasy VII with in-game graphics?

[Rob2600]

Look at Link's hood at 1:01. Look at Ganon's ear at 2:45. Tell me that's not jagged and primitive-looking.

You mean low polygon count. Yes, video game consoles in the mid/late 1990s displayed a limited number of polygons. If you think the models in Ocarina of Time are "jagged," how do you feel about the in-game models in FFVII?


As with most Nintendo 64 games stitched together with polygons, there's an obvious lack of detail.

By today's standards, yes, N64 games lack some detail. However, at the time, the N64 was displaying graphics the PlayStation or Saturn couldn't: perspective correction, texture filtering, real-time lighting and shadows and reflections, etc. The fact that Ocarina of Time, a huge, detailed game, fit onto a 32 MB cartridge is amazing. The fact that FFVII needed three 650 MB CD-ROMs was just a marketing gimmick.


Do you seriously think the Nintendo 64 could have pulled off that opening footage from Final Fantasy VII with in-game graphics?

No, but it wouldn't have needed to. The N64's in-game graphics were good enough that in-game cinema scenes would've been fine.

[Kid Fenris]

You mean low polygon count.

No, I mean they're jagged, in the purest definition (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/jagged) of the term. And the primitive in-game character models in Final Fantasy VII are the very reason the developers used FMV cutscenes, and one of the reasons the game was made for a CD-based system instead of the Nintendo 64.

This comes up every time the non-existent Nintendo 64 version of Final Fantasy VII is mentioned. Nintendo 64 fans still like to believe that the system would've handled the game and that Square was just being a big mean sellout, yet the fact remains that Final Fantasy VII would not be the same game or have the same impact if it were a Nintendo 64 title. You can tell yourself that it would've been a better game on the Nintendo 64 all you like, but it would not have been the Final Fantasy VII that was created for the PlayStation.

[NayusDante]

I hate to join the argument, but I think that the N64 "Final Fantasy VII" would have been a better game. The constant switching from SD to realistic characters ingame and in cut-scenes makes the game feel inconsistent and rushed. Had the entire game been rendered in real-time with low-poly environments, it would have been a very different game, but it would have been more consistent in presentation and tone.

[chrisbid]

i don't think the game would've been better on the N64, i only contend it wouldve been possible, and the impact of the gameplay and storyline would have made it pretty much the same experience as the product that appeared on the PlayStation.

[Aussie2B]

Of course Final Fantasy VII would be possible on N64. I don't see how anyone can argue against that. If Final Fantasy VI could be on Super Nintendo, why couldn't VII be on a system far more powerful and just as powerful as the PlayStation, if not more so in certain regards. I don't see people saying that Final Fantasy VI is a horrible game for being on a much weaker system, so why would Final Fantasy VII be terrible on N64?

Yes, Final Fantasy VII on N64 wouldn't be the EXACT same game, but let's look at this systematically. If the game was on N64, it could have the same story, same characters, same battle system with all the same limit breaks, materia, equipment, items, and what have you, the same locations, virtually the same music since nearly all the tracks use MIDI with low quality synth to begin with, and the same length.

What would be different? Well, it wouldn't have extensive use of FMV, but it could use a minor amount for the most important events. It couldn't have extensive use of prerendered backgrounds, but, again, it could manage a small amount. However, since the prerendered backgrounds in Final Fantasy VII are very fuzzy and you can't even tell where the heck you're going without pulling up the Mickey Mouse hand half the time, there could be an argument made that real-time environments with heightened interactivity could actually be an improvement. And the character and enemy models would actually be better. Or maybe they'd go with sprites, which would also be an improvement in my mind.

So I don't know what one values in their games or what they think defines a game for what it is, but I think the N64 could capture all the truly important elements that make Final Fantasy VII what it is - the story and the gameplay.

I won't say much on it, but I'll say that the whole FFVII vs. Ocarina of Time is childish and fanboy-ish. You can't make an argument having perspective on one game but none for the other. It doesn't matter what people may think of Ocarina of Time's graphics these days because when the game was release they were absolutely mind-blowing. There was nothing more realistic and detailed on N64, and the PlayStation, with its inferior 3D engine, didn't have anything that came close at that point. Final Fantasy VII was also impressive to people, but it wasn't nearly as impressive graphically because there were already games with superior character models and prerendered backgrounds and FMV that were on-par. Final Fantasy VII was more lauded for its story, its advancement over the previous Final Fantasy, and the experience as a whole. Looking solely at graphics, not much was said besides that it had a lot of cool FMV.

[NayusDante]

Another topic: Production cost

FF7 used 3 CDs and had a multi-disk case. N64 still used cartriges, which, aside from some Banjo Kazooie speculation, forces games to remain on ONE cart. Any number of carts would be POSSIBLE with saved games on memory pak, but at that point, production costs would make the game approach $80ish, if we're guessing $20/cart.

While 3 CDs might actually be cheaper to produce, the format of the content for a cartrige release would have introduced another argument: Development Cost.

It's EXPENSIVE to PAY artists to work for MONTHS on HUNDREDS of backgrounds, which includes modeling, rendering, touch-up, and integrating boundaries and objects. In low-poly real-time maps, there's much less work to be done. Square were masters of games with tilesets, so there's no reason to say they wouldn't have built a pallet of textures in a similar manner. This reduces the workload on the artists, as well as the number of artists required, if done right.


If anybody's seen the PC version of FF7, you'll know that the game itself is 400mb of data. A lot of that data is pre-rendered graphics. The models are something like 40mb. There's a LOT of models in FF7! A lot of those could be cut, namely the SD field models, using the battle models instead. At worst, fewer enemies would fit. As for maps, use tiles. A lot of walls look the same, so why not use one model for each wall, just scale and rotate to fit.


As odd as it sounds, PSX supposedly has a much higher supported polygon count than N64. However, N64 definitely supports 640x480 resolution, where FF7 PSX ran at 320x240. At such low resolutions, a higher polygon count isn't going to do you any good, because everything looks too pixellated.

[Kid Fenris]

Final Fantasy VII would have totally worked and looked just like the Playstation game if it were running on the magical Nintendo system that exists only in the wilds of my imagination.

[Rob2600]

PSX supposedly has a much higher supported polygon count than N64.

That's not entirely true. With all of the fancy effects disabled, the N64 could display more polygons per second than the PlayStation. However, Nintendo did not allow any games to be released like that.

That's why at first, N64 games were pushing about 150,000 polygons per second. Again, that's with hardware effects enabled (texture filtering, perspective correction, Z buffer, etc.).

Later in the N64's life, smart developers pushed the N64's polygon count beyond the PlayStation's, while still leaving the hardware effects enabled. Boss Game Studios achieved ~300,000 polygons per second in World Driver Championship. It's critically acclaimed as one of the best-looking N64 games.

Wikipedia - Nintendo 64 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo_64): "World Driver Championship was one of the most polygon-intense Nintendo 64 games and frequently would push past Sony PlayStation's typical in-game polygon counts."

"Some developers noted that the default SGI microcode ("Fast3D') was actually quite poorly profiled for use in games. It was too accurate and performance suffered as a result. Several companies were able to create custom microcode that ran their games far better than SGI's default microcode (Factor 5, Boss Game Studios, and Rare)."

SGI's Turbo3D microcode: 500,000–600,000 low-accuracy polygons per second (no hardware effects, similar looking to PlayStation games, Nintendo never allowed this mode to be used in finished games)
SGI's Fast3D microcode: ~100,000 high-accuracy polygons per second (hardware effects enabled, most N64 games used this mode)
custom microcode: ~300,000 high-accuracy polygons per second (hardware effects enabled, relatively few N64 games used custom modes)


Compare that to the Sony PlayStation (Wikipedia - PlayStation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Playstation)):

360,000 flat-shaded polygons per second
180,000 texture mapped and light-sourced polygons per second