Anyone Else sick of composite video??!

[erik]

Hello,
I just fired up my NES the other day and played Punch-Out!!, Life Force and Mega Man II. After having ALL of my others systems on S-Video or Component, I just find standard A/V to be too rough on my eyes! I noticed alot of smearing of reds on Quickman's stage on Mega Man II, stage 1 in Life Force and in Punch-Out as well. Half of my NES collection is available on virtual console, but I still have about 10 more games that are not. Those are:
Contra
Life Force
Castlevania III(coming soon)
Tecmo Super Bowl
Battletoads
Tetris
Mega Man III
Dragon Warrior IV
Bionic Commando
Baseball Stars

Note: These games are ALL considered as outstanding games that deserve better than composite video. I am just a bit pissed that I still have to play these games using the 'yellow' plug. Is anyone else feeling the same way? My SNES, Genesis and Duo games look outstanding in component video; I just wish I could follow suit with the NES. Sorry about the rant, but any self-respecting videophile is probably pulling their hair out in frustration. Feel free to let me know if you are feeling the same way!

[Tupin]

I think composite looks fine, I just hate RF.

I seriously can't believe that awful format was supported up until the age of the GCN.

[Jorpho]

Maybe you have a bad cable? Or bad connectors on either the TV or NES?

[Leo_A]

Not at all, I still remember the days of having to use rf and the almost constant interference I'd get and constant readjustment of cables trying to get a clear picture. Never had such issues with composite.

And even though I've upgraded every console I own that can do better than composite to whatever maximum they can (S-video, component, etc.), I really don't notice much of a difference. Its only when we're talking hd resolutions like 720p where its obvious to my eyes that it's superior.

[TheRealist50]

I don't have a problem with composite video.

I agree with Tupin, RF annoys me. Just so pointless nowadays unless its an Atari and so on.

[ooXxXoo]

If you are able to find a NES RGB PPU, you can swap it and amplify the signals...then convert them either to s-video or better yet, to component just like I did....A whole another level!....

[Gentlegamer]

Why complain? You're playing NES as it was intended to be viewed.

[c0ldb33r]

I just fired up my NES the other day and played Punch-Out!!, Life Force and Mega Man II. After having ALL of my others systems on S-Video or Component, I just find standard A/V to be too rough on my eyes!
Ha, sorry princess but you sound pretty spoiled. My toploader NES only has RF output. And I like it just fine like that :D

[TheDomesticInstitution]

You know what I'm sick of? Impotence.




I'm more with the "RF sucks" crowd here. Composite video looks pretty good on my HDTV from my NES. And I consider myself to be pretty discerning of video quality.

[otaku]

RF I hate. Composite is fine but I prefer Svideo or better when possible. I have still yet to run anything via HDMI despite having HDMI on my tvs I need a ps3 and a new 360 :)

[zektor]

I remember back in the day hunting down s-video cables for the systems that did support it, but to me it didn't make that much of a difference at all. I still think composite is just fine and dandy....still use it for my Dreamcast even! Looks great in my opinion.

[maxlords]

Composite is fine unless you're running it on an HDTV. I have my composite equipment hooked up to my old regular TV (27" flat screen CRT) and my newer stuff running on my HDTV. Makes a big difference.

[Leo_A]

Why complain? You're playing NES as it was intended to be viewed.

Odd logic if you ask me. Why do something like use a tv/game switchbox on a 2600 when it can easily be modded for composite and s-video for clearer, interference free gameplay?

Why stick with it if you feel like its sucky just because its the way you were stuck doing it 20 years earlier? I'm unaware of any easy ways to get better than composite out of a NES nor am I disatisfied with composite from a NES, but I wouldn't let that line of yours persuade me any differently if I wanted improved quality.

[djbeatmongrel]

Erik, I think you need to search on a bunch of threads Started by an ex board member Anthony1. It'll either come off as informative or douchey but I am sure you can get something out of them.

[Aussie2B]

On NES? Nah, no way, composite is just dandy. I even use a toploader often, so I tolerate the RF. Now if we were talking PlayStation and N64 or anything more recent, I gotta have at least S-video. But in the PlayStation's case, it has really lousy composite output anyway. Same deal with the Genesis (but even worse), so I do get annoyed that I'm still stuck with composite (although, up until recently, I was using RF on my Genesis, augh). But other than the Genesis, I'm fine with any 16-bit system or older being on composite (well, unless you want to get into Neo Geo, but that's a whole 'nother kind of beast). The SNES has such good composite that I don't even notice much of a difference when I use S-video on it.

[darkslime]

I just use normal A/V or RF cables except on 360 with component cables.

[OldSchoolGamer]

RF is pissing me off to no end. Not so much the quality, I can deal with that but I can do anything with RF as far as converting the signal to my PC, I have a capture card, a tuner card, a PC and laptop all of which work fine with composite or S-video but nothing I do will allow me to capture an RF signal, it just comes out scrambled kind of like what macrovision does to protected VHS. I thought for sure I could grab it with the tuner card but same result. Finally I thought I was smart, I recorded it to VHS and figured HA! Now I will just capture the recorded video but again once sent to the capture card it is scrambled!!!!!! Though I have NO problem capturing VHS normally. All the research I have done the closests I can come up with was something about Rf not being a True or fully stable NTSC compliant signal therefore it can display properly straight to the TV or VCR, even record and playback fine from VHS but the moment I try to capture it it goes to crap......guess I will have to capture all my old RF systems by playing the games in emulators which sucks as I wanted a more "real" feel to my videos. SO IN CLOSING RF SUCKS AND I WOULD B E THRILLED IF ALL MY CLASSIC SYSTEMS HAD COMPOSITE RIGHT NOW!!!!

[boatofcar]

Why complain? You're playing NES as it was intended to be viewed.

I've never understood why people say this. Game developers want people to see their games in the highest quality possible, which at the time of the NES's release, was for most people composite. There has never, ever been a programmer or developer come out and say that they resent people playing VCS through a modded component cable because "it wasn't how it was meant to be played."


That said, component is fine for me, but I only have a SDTV. Maybe it's a bigger difference once you go HD.

[ccovell]

From the late '80s, the NES had RGB PPU versions (used inside Nintendo, game companies, and in the arcade in Playchoice-10 units.) So, both developers and the public had some exposure to RGB graphics out of the NES. Why do you think the screenshots in Nintendo Power were so crisp and clear?

Anyway, choosing RGB, composite, or S-Video is up to the individual. If someone's satisfied with RF or composite, well good for them. Those that aren't satisfied with mere composite know that they'll probably have to pay to get something better.

Anyway, here's a comparison that I made of composite/RGB from several systems: http://www.disgruntleddesigner.com/chrisc/gotRGB/screenshots.html

[ooXxXoo]

From the late '80s, the NES had RGB PPU versions (used inside Nintendo, game companies, and in the arcade in Playchoice-10 units.) So, both developers and the public had some exposure to RGB graphics out of the NES. Why do you think the screenshots in Nintendo Power were so crisp and clear?

Anyway, choosing RGB, composite, or S-Video is up to the individual. If someone's satisfied with RF or composite, well good for them. Those that aren't satisfied with mere composite know that they'll probably have to pay to get something better.

Anyway, here's a comparison that I made of composite/RGB from several systems: http://www.disgruntleddesigner.com/chrisc/gotRGB/screenshots.html

EXACTLY........Most people don't seem to realize this....In most cases, the picture scans found in many classic game cases were directly taken from RGB quality.....

And I agree, if anyone likes the composite or even RF, so be it....

[Gentlegamer]

I'm just like pointing out the irony of classic video game collectors/players who insist on "playing on the original hardware," then complain that the console in question looks horrible on a 50" HDTV (for example) using the AV outs built-in to the console. Those consoles were meant to be played on old interlaced TVs with either RF or Composite.

As for the designer's intent, there are plenty of games where designers deliberately programmed the visuals in a game knowing how the end result would look using RF/Composite video on an interlaced TV. Particularly in the 16-bit era, there were shadowing and transparency effects that made use of the "blurring effect" of composite plus SDTV picture. If you play those games in even s-video, suddenly all the pixels jump out and the effect is ruined.

If you really really want to see NES games look like the raw video they were programmed in, play them on an emulator without any filters turned on. Glory in the huge blocky pixels that don't look like any game you remember. Then, turn on a NTSC filter and see how the "blurry effect" rounds off corners and looks like what you remember from 20 years ago.

Now, I do sympathize to a certain degree with OP's point here. I few months ago, I was having a "16-bit Night," where I played some TG-16, SNES, and Genesis, in that order, all using composite video (TG-16 equipped with TurboBooster). Everything was great until I got to Genesis, where the video had weird lines and looked much poorer than the other two consoles. It turns out the composite video encoder of the Genesis, particularly on the model 2 version I have, was of a poor quality. So I have contemplated a mod to s-video or some such to "correct" the problem. However, if the composite encoder were up to par, I would perfectly happy with it.

[c0ldb33r]

Do they make VCRs with s-video out?

Because if so couldn't you plug an RF or composite system into a VCR's input and output it via s-video?

[erik]

I have noticed that most of of you do not have problems with composite video based on your replies here. Yes, RF sucks worse so I didn't bother to mention it earlier. Actually, composite video does look acceptable on the TurboDuo, SNES and Saturn(in my opinion it is passable only on these 3 systems). The Genesis looks horrible and the NES looks just okay. In Castlevania III, there are two dark-brown dots on Trevor's head. This is the result of the infamous 'dot crawl' common on composite and RF. Also, many vertical black lines appear jagged when they should be straight - very unprofessional IMO. Developers design their games with RGB in mind and Nintendo Power screenshots often looked phenomenal because they were taken in RGB. I guess I will have to find a PC-10 PPU and go from there. Anyway, my point is that all serious gamers should strive to play in S-Video or higher - your eyes will notce the difference especially after going to composite or RF. Many people don't notice the difference and that's fine, but it still difficult for me to play my NES on a set bigger than 20". My 2 cents.

[skaar]

I've kept a 27" CRT TV around for the old systems - because really, NES just looks weird on a 60" HDTV.

Mega Man 9 looks great though :D

I'm a fan of the idea of actually playing games on the TVs I used to play them on if I'm looking to recapture the experience of childhood gaming. Modding for output is all fine and dandy though.

[josekortez]

I think composite looks fine, I just hate RF.

I seriously can't believe that awful format was supported up until the age of the GCN.

Video game companies just want to make sure that everyone can buy their format including poor people like me. ;-)

The last TV I bought was a 32" CRT display model from Wal-Mart on clearance for $50, and I got lucky because it had the AV hookup right in the front. Before that, I had to run game systems through a VCR. This was, of course, in the days before DVD.

I doubt I'll be able to afford high-def for a long while if I plan to keep buying games, but I'm just glad to have something to play them on at this point.

[Rob2600]

I think composite looks fine, I just hate RF.

I seriously can't believe that awful format was supported up until the age of the GCN.

The Nintendo 64 only came with composite AV cables. The RF swtich was sold separately.


Do they make VCRs with s-video out?

Because if so couldn't you plug an RF or composite system into a VCR's input and output it via s-video?

Some VCRs feature S-video output. However, the output will only look as good as the input. The VCR won't magically enhance an RF signal.

[Aussie2B]

Hah, yeah, I remember running back to the store the night I got my N64 when I realized I couldn't hook it up to my TV. Had to spend another 20 bucks on that crap.

Considering all the years I was stuck with RF, I'm very grateful for composite, and S-video even more so. When I bought my Dreamcast, I couldn't even keep it with my other systems. I don't know if an RF cable was ever sold for it, but I remember having to run it through the VCR just to play it. With my family, I was always stuck with long outdated technology. That TV I had the Dreamcast on was so freakin' old that you had to get up to turn it on/off and adjust the volume. Thank goodness we at least had a converter box and remote to change channels with. And it was only a couple years ago when my mom finally got rid of that beast.

Oh, and while I was fortunate enough to not have to use it myself, the GameCube did support RF. I don't know if Nintendo themselves made cables, but I ended up with a third party RF cable from a system I got at a yard sale. The picture was pretty dang horrendous when I tried it out.

[Rob2600]

When I bought my Dreamcast, I couldn't even keep it with my other systems. I don't know if an RF cable was ever sold for it, but I remember having to run it through the VCR just to play it.

Sega made an RF switch for the Dreamcast:

Amazon - Sega Dreamcast RF switch (http://www.amazon.com/Sega-Dreamcast-RF-Adapter-Unit/dp/B00000K2RA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=videogames&qid=1223230326&sr=8-1)

There were third party ones, too.

[Rogue]

Do they make VCRs with s-video out?

Because if so couldn't you plug an RF or composite system into a VCR's input and output it via s-video?

Like the guy said above here. That's useless. That's usefull ONLY if you got only a s-video input on the TV and can't connect using other way. there's no improvement.


Sega made an RF switch for the Dreamcast:

Amazon - Sega Dreamcast RF switch (http://www.amazon.com/Sega-Dreamcast-RF-Adapter-Unit/dp/B00000K2RA/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=videogames&qid=1223230326&sr=8-1)

There were third party ones, too.

I don't know what the guys are thinking about RF. Any console can output RF. They don't do it exactly, the modulator get composite and audio and converts to RF.
That's RF, video + audio. It can be video alone, of course. You can put the stereo audio on other device, because the RF is mono. But using audio+video or just video, any console/dvd/vcr can do it.

[Raedon]

Most of the 90's systems support S-Video and that's great for my old 27" Sony. Even RF isn't that bad as long as the hardware doesn't output RF Video that bleeds into the audio ... or audio that bleeds into the video.

You know what pisses me off?! MONO! I've got TWO EARS! :onfire:

[Mr. Smashy]

Anyway, my point is that all serious gamers should strive to play in S-Video or higher
I have to disagree with you. Your AV connection type shouldn't have any bearing on how serious of a gamer you are. It's ridiculous to expect a system like the NES to easily provide a video signal that was widely adopted in the home consumer market long after the console was developed. I've had my Master System, Genesis, and Neo Geo modified for S-video since the video signal is greatly improved. I'd love to have an NES with an S-video modification but the problem with that is the return on investment is next to nothing since it's a huge pain in the ass just to get the required parts for the mod. The NES doesn't have a particularly high resolution or broad colour palette, either.

Graphically, the NES isn't too far off from the Master System. With S-video on the Master System, I like the blacker blacks, whiter whites, and absence of dot crawl. Still, neither the Master System or NES have any software where S-video provides a substantial benefit over composite.

[Trebuken]

Attach your PC to your HDTV via component, DVI, or HDMI or a standard def TV via composite. Buy NES to PC controller adapter and find a suitable emulator. You can tweak your picture as much as you want this way...

[acem77]

I hate composite with a passion.
I after modding all my systems from the nes on up for rgb ill never miss the crappy pixel crawl and rainbow side effect.
Those are major artifacts that I can live with out.
RGB in one form or another is how all games are made to be displayed.
They had to add other circuits to mix it down to what work on the primitive cheap tvs most people had at home. Look to arcades for what big money bought back then and today.

[kedawa]

Composite only looks good on small, high-quality monitors.
Otherwise it's a blurry mess of bleeding colors and dot-crawl.
I first made the jump to s-video when I bought my first Playstation, and I could never go back.

[Nescollector]

Everything was great until I got to Genesis, where the video had weird lines and looked much poorer than the other two consoles. It turns out the composite video encoder of the Genesis, particularly on the model 2 version I have, was of a poor quality.

Gentlegamer...the genesis model 2 was horrible, I ended up buying a model 1 which was waaay better.

When I first bought the nes, I played it through a 19" sharp tv with the rf and was blow away with the visuals, it's only because what we view nowadays that makes us crave better picture quality.

[ccovell]

Sorry to necropost, but this seemed like the most appropriate thread (rather than my starting a new one.)

As a little more grist for the mill (of discussion, that is) I've made a new page showing some direct screengrabs of RGB and composite video, so they can be seen very clearly and compared more easily. Check it out:

http://www.disgruntleddesigner.com/chrisc/gotRGB/rgb_compare.html

http://www.disgruntleddesigner.com/chrisc/gotRGB/RGB_Comp_Capture_Bump.jpg

[Flack]

Hello,
I just fired up my NES the other day and played Punch-Out!!, Life Force and Mega Man II. After having ALL of my others systems on S-Video or Component, I just find standard A/V to be too rough on my eyes! I noticed alot of smearing of reds on Quickman's stage on Mega Man II, stage 1 in Life Force and in Punch-Out as well. [...] Sorry about the rant, but any self-respecting videophile is probably pulling their hair out in frustration. Feel free to let me know if you are feeling the same way!

Seriously, the horror.

[Nature Boy]

It's funny - when I updated my Gamecube A/V cabling from composite to S-video I would've told you I'd *never* go back.

Now that my Gamecube is simply a part of my retro rig (where S-video isn't an option), I could care less about it being in composite as I think it looks as good as that TV will allow. If I had to connect it to a nice TV using only composite, well, that would be another story.

[Rob2600]

As a little more grist for the mill (of discussion, that is) I've made a new page showing some direct screengrabs of RGB and composite video, so they can be seen very clearly and compared more easily. Check it out:

http://www.disgruntleddesigner.com/chrisc/gotRGB/rgb_compare.html

Thanks! I'd love to see detailed comparisons of S-video vs. RGB. (The comparisons always seem to be composite vs. RGB.)

[kedawa]

Genesis didn't support s-video, at least not without modification.

[Arasoi]

ccovell's site delivers the goods for video signal comparisons as usual. I did a similar (not as well photoed) comparison with my NES, which has RGB + svideo/component/composite through a JROK encoder, and my Svideo modded X'eye:

http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n310/Protogem/Videocomp3.jpg
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n310/Protogem/videocomp2.jpg
http://i115.photobucket.com/albums/n310/Protogem/videocompare1.jpg

All on the same monitor and picture except for component video on the NES one, thus it's fuzziness due to the bad internal scaler on the Toshiba CRT here..

[hamburglar]

From the late '80s, the NES had RGB PPU versions (used inside Nintendo, game companies, and in the arcade in Playchoice-10 units.) So, both developers and the public had some exposure to RGB graphics out of the NES. Why do you think the screenshots in Nintendo Power were so crisp and clear?

Anyway, choosing RGB, composite, or S-Video is up to the individual. If someone's satisfied with RF or composite, well good for them. Those that aren't satisfied with mere composite know that they'll probably have to pay to get something better.

Anyway, here's a comparison that I made of composite/RGB from several systems: http://www.disgruntleddesigner.com/chrisc/gotRGB/screenshots.html

I completely agree, the first time I played Super Mario Bros. was in an arcade at the Chuck E. Cheese, VS Super Mario Bros in RGB.

I modified my AV Famicom for RGB, and I cannot go back to composite, NES/Famicom has the worst composite video, it smears everything specially when the screen is scrolling, and this is on a SD CRT, it's worse on anything HD.

Of course it's all a matter of preference, I've been over to peoples places where they were watching TV with the contrast and brightness all wrong, the colors all off watching an original 16:9 movie in 4:3 on a 16:9 set, they didn't seem to mind, although it drove me nuts.

[bacteria]

Nintendo consoles look great on composite - ie NES, SNES, N64, GameCube, Wii

Some systems suck on composite with colour bleeding, etc - like TurboGrafx, Amstrad GX4000

If the video signal looks good, it doesn't matter if its composite, S-video or RGB. Retro games look better on a television than a computer monitor anyway, no surprise as were designed for television anyway.

[alec006]

Try being next to the TV towers and compaining about RF interference,composite is better than nothing when it comes to classic game systems. Of course most can be modified for S-Video and some output native RGB,too bad Pong doesn't, RF never looked so good lol. Composite seems to look much better when its amplified by a system selector or on a CRT, LCD's tend to make it look like shit,but there's a reason for that,its a "High Definition" TV meaning a low definition source like composite looks like crap. Again still better than RF.

[Enigmus]

I side with composite. Every time I'd play on my 2600 Jr. or NES through RF, I had to wiggle the cord around, and even then you never knew what would nudge the cable and crap up the signal again. It angered me enough on the Atari that I just run Stella Wii through HBC just for Ms. Pac Man. Composite is one of the best things for CRTs, and it's made NES a lot better to play, especially since my cable box would screw the RF up since the Comcast DTV boxes are just a continuous stream through Ch. 3. Even worse, all I had for PSX until 2008 were RF switches, and I was shocked by the sound I missed from RF, which mixes it down to a crappy sounding one channel mono sound. Now, I refuse RF outright due to it being obsolete as far as game systems go. Overall, RF sucks ass, composite's good, RGB is king.

[swlovinist]

I grew up with RF, so for my Atari and Pong units, RF is fine. My Nes I started using composite, so for old systems, it still looks great to me. I also play my systems on older TVs, no bigger than 19" so that there really is not need for anything else.