Atari Jaguar Discussion

[Gunstarhero]

Sometimes, when I hook up the Jag, and I pop in a classic like Doom, or Tempest 2000, I just can't understand how this machine couldn't have succeeded more in our marketplace. There are so many things the Jaguar did well, its mind boggling how much it flopped.

I bought one when it was first released, and yes, I absolutely loved Cybermorph when I first got it. Maybe it was a little bit 'new system euphoria', plus the fact that it was the only game I had for a little while, that made this game fun for me. Now, though, I really don't see much fun in the game at all, it didn't age well. Iron Soldier suffered this fate for me too, a blast when released, now its much too slow and tedious to give me the same satisfaction today, but the explosions still rock!

I think the Jaguar did the FPS better than any of the competition at the time, and particularly did them better, or at least on par with the PSX early releases. DOOM in particular is just astoundingly faithfull to the PC game, and it runs much better than any other 16 bit counterparts. I thought the Jag could of had a good future with more of the FPS's, simply because it seemed that the machine could do them so well, it seemed to have that extra ooomph to keep the framerates smoother than the competition.

I don't need to tell this group about the beauty and genius of Tempest 2000, so I'll skip to another example of Jaguar dominance of its day with Rayman. This game IMO ended up better than the PSX version particularly because of the absence of load times(some don't mind loading, I do). I've not compared the two side by side, but I've read there are minor differences in graphics between the Jag, and PSX versions of the game and the Jag often comes out on top. I've played both, just not enough to compare minute detail, they look pretty much the same to me, but I'll take the faster running one anyday.

I think the Jag could of had a future with Fighting games too, because when I play Ultra Vortek, its obvious to me the superiority of this game compared to Mortal Kombat or Killer Instinct. It's obviously a clone of these games, but to me, this one, even if you don't agree its better, is at least right on par with those other top notch fighters on SNES and Genesis.

I don't know, I don't want to ramble on too long here, but I'm trying to figure out, are there really MORE bad games on the Jaguar then there are Great, or just Good games? The library of games isn't huge, and I've played alot of Good games on the machine, so I just wonder, what really happened. Is it just bad marketing? One thing I can say is that the whole 64-bit thing was misleading, and all I can figure out is that when a company boasts 64-bit power, and releases an old game like Cannon Fodder(which is a fantastic game), that looks like a Genesis game(it is a Genesis game anyway right?), then you create an environment where people begin to question the merits of the machines power, and maybe this makes people go to the competition. Did the Jag suffer because of Donkey Kong Country? Certainly AvP was a worthy contender to such a beautifull game. Was it the Atari name? Was it all those things, plus more?

I'm really just not crystal clear on the causes of the Jaguars failure, I have a pretty good idea on a few things, but its pretty confusing when you play such classic games like Rayman and Tempest 2000 on the machine, and you have to accept that 'this was a failure'.

[Sylentwulf]

I'm with ya on everything you said.

[le geek]

Tempest 2K and Cybermorph were way cool, as was Rayman, Defender 2K and Iron Soldier. Heck, I like Club Drive.

The fact that Checkered Flag was poor compared to Virtua Racing Deluxe and that Doom crashed on my Jag pissed me off as a consumer. And I ended up trading it for a 32x setup.

I think it was mainly hurt by the relative lack of 3rd party support.

Kasumi Ninja was pretty bad considering it was a marquee title.

I like the Jag and am a pretty big Atari fan, but it's my least favorite Atari system.

[Raedon]

Tempest 2000 is one of the most playable games out there.

Atari was dead 7 years before the Jaguar ever came out. Management splits and Atari trying to get into the computer market screwed them.. They didn't see the future of the market. Just like Nintendo is doing now.

[Zaxxon]

Atari didn't sign deals with any of the big name, talented developers and instead put the systems fortunes in the hands of small, inexperienced and underfunded developers that took forever to release their games. Atari mgmt. stupidly killed a bunch of great looking 2D games that were in progress in favor of 3D texture mapped games, thinking they needed to to compete with Sony. The only problem is the Jag can't do texture mapped polys well enough to compete with anything. That along with high cart prices, next to zero distribution and the huge glut of Amiga ports killed it.

[petewhitley]

Nothing knowledgable to add, but the day I first played Aliens Vs. Predator for the Jaguar was undoubtedly one of my top-ten gaming moments. The atmosphere of that game coupled with the ability to finally "be" in the movie (FPS-wise) just killed me.

[cheesystick]

Aliens Vs. predator and iron soilder were friggin awesome. I ended up buying a new jaguar at a discount store in Oregon for 50 bucks. A worthy purchase. But at the time, all i had was cybermorph and I outplayed it. The game remined me a lot of the game "spectre" for mac. They were very similar.
I think the Jaguar went down for many reasons. First being that they didnt have enough games out when they released. It is a really good idea if you have a wide array of games available when you relase a system, to appeal to as many people as possible. There is always going to be the smah hit, halo so to speak, that is going to mainly drive sails of a system, but a good selection is essential. Second reason was probably not enough marketing and advertising. I think they relied to heavily on the power of their system, and not enough on the 'hype factor' of gamers.
And on a equitment standpoint, the controllers were pretty piss poor. They were too bulky, and the control pad was not too percise, and all the buttons in the middle were not easily accessable. :-(
But those little covers to go over the pad, depending on the game, was a cool idea. It definitly helped me out.

After I had the system for awhile, I soon fell in love with the Jag versions of doom and wolfenstein. I was very fond of wolfenstein. I will always be fond of the system because of that
Another good thing they had going for them was their name. First off, ATARI, which kicks ass. Secondly, Jaguar. Just sounds cool. The idea of having a red claw smash through the sceen of every commercial would have been really cool. Much better then the microsoft X splitting open in the modern XBOX commercials.

All around, could have worked out, but it didnt. A dire shame.
Also, i almost forgot, another reason is because the Jag didnt drive sports titles too much. Even the ones they did have, sucked balls. Sports titles are underestimated in how much they drive game system sales. Casual gamers are crazy about sports games. When you pull casual gamers out of the loop, you are losing your largest chunk of profit. Not a smooth move.

Anyways, I think we can all agree that the Jag was a hell of a lot better than the virtual boy. At least Atari has got that going for em.
-crispy

[chadtower]

So no one mentioned that, IMO, the primary reason it died was that it was a 16 bit machine marketed as 64 bit. Every salesperson I talked to about it when it came out said the same thing: "yeah, it's not 64, it's 16bit like a genesis or snes" which made me leave it on the shelf...

[ventrra]

So no one mentioned that, IMO, the primary reason it died was that it was a 16 bit machine marketed as 64 bit. Every salesperson I talked to about it when it came out said the same thing: "yeah, it's not 64, it's 16bit like a genesis or snes" which made me leave it on the shelf...
Every salesperson that you talked to then didn't know what they were talking about. In no way, shape, or form is the Jaguar 16-bits. I won't say that it's 64-bits, but there are a number of games that show that there was quite a bit more power under the hood than 16-bits. Not to mention that the procesors that did all of the work were actually 32-bits.
The internal specs read thusly:


The Jaguar has five processors these are:

Tom: Tom is made up of three processors in one. These include the GPU, Object, and Blitter. The Object and Blitter are both co-processors for animation.

-GPU: 32-bit RISC processor that can access 64 bits of the system bus. It’s clock speed is 26.591Mhz. There's a slight difference in clock speed for different regions.

-Object: 64-bit RISC architecture with 64-bit wide registers. The Object processor is programmable and can do multiple functions such as: sprite engine, a pixel-mapped display, a character-mapped system.

-Blitter: 64-bit RISC architecture with 64-bit wide registers. The Blitter processor performs high-speed logical operations such as 3D rendering, screen clearing, and pixel shuffling.

Jerry: Jerry contains the Digital Signal Processor (DSP) which is a 32-bit processor with 32-bit wide registers. It’s clock speed is 26.591Mhz. Jerry also contains: the memory controller and some other small features like the UART. There's also a slight difference in clock speed for different regions.

Motorola 68000: 16-bit processor with 32-bit wide registers. It’s clock speed is 13.295MHz. The 68000 can do multiple functions such as boot strap the machine and read Joystick commands. It can also be shut off with a hault instruction after it boot straps the machine.

Communication between these processors are with a 64-bit data bus at a rate of 106.364 megabytes/second. Not all the processors have 64-bit wide access to the bus.

[Ruudos]

Yes, and most developers only made use of the Motorola one, also that one was just there to do some simple stuff or something.

[Arcade Antics]

So no one mentioned that, IMO, the primary reason it died was that it was a 16 bit machine marketed as 64 bit.

Not true.


Every salesperson I talked to about it when it came out said the same thing: "yeah, it's not 64, it's 16bit like a genesis or snes" which made me leave it on the shelf...

Why? In the end, what difference do the tech specs make - the games are either fun or they're not. Damn those idiotic salesmen. :) I get leaving it on the shelf because you see the hellish crapfest that IS Kasumi Ninja, but not because some moron salesman who knows nothing about it spews out lies. 8-)

[chadtower]

My thinking at the time was that if it's no better than the snes, I already have an snes, why bother with a system that has a billion fewer games at the same quality. Like I said, this was at the time.

[Rogmeister]

Before reading this thread, I felt required to pull out my CD of "Tempest: The Soundtrack" and sticking it in my CD-Rom drive...

Many people have said in lots of discussions that it's not the hardware but the software that matters and that's especially true regarding the Jaguar. It had a few really great games (Tempest 2K, Alien Vs. Predator) but the fact was that there just wasn't enough really cool games to make it worthwhile. In fact, now that I have picked up Tempest X3 for the Playstation, if it weren't for AvP, I might just sell all my Jag stuff. But I won't. Once I thought about getting a complete collection of all the Jag games but ultimately realized that it just wasn't worth it. I then sold over half my collection, keeping just the 20 best games. I don't pull it out that often anymore, but I'm still glad it's in my collection.l Perhaps I'll cruise Ebay once in awhile looking for cheap Jag games...

[Gunstarhero]

Before reading this thread, I felt required to pull out my CD of "Tempest: The Soundtrack" and sticking it in my CD-Rom drive...

Many people have said in lots of discussions that it's not the hardware but the software that matters and that's especially true regarding the Jaguar. It had a few really great games (Tempest 2K, Alien Vs. Predator) but the fact was that there just wasn't enough really cool games to make it worthwhile. In fact, now that I have picked up Tempest X3 for the Playstation, if it weren't for AvP, I might just sell all my Jag stuff. But I won't. Once I thought about getting a complete collection of all the Jag games but ultimately realized that it just wasn't worth it. I then sold over half my collection, keeping just the 20 best games. I don't pull it out that often anymore, but I'm still glad it's in my collection.l Perhaps I'll cruise Ebay once in awhile looking for cheap Jag games...

I felt the same way at one point, I felt that I had pretty much gotten everything I wanted out of the Jaguar, and when the PSX was released I traded up and sold off all my Jag stuff to get a PSX. One of the games I eventually bought for PSX was Tempest X3, but there was something it was missing. Tempest X3 isn't as good as Tempest 2000, its been along time since I played X3, but I don't remember meltovision, or the bonus stages, or warp stages on X3, plus the music was different right? It's been so long though, I could be mistaken on a couple of those points.

Anyway, I've pretty much gotten back all I had in Jag stuff, plus some, and I have about 8 games coming in the mail from recent ebay purchases. Like you, I don't pull out the Jag very often, but when I do it reminds me why I keep it, because it does have some very special games, and it just oozes classic gaming nostalgia. I'm glad I have it and I don't plan on getting rid of it ever again. This is one machine I plan to get a complete collection for because it is unique, not everyone has one, and it has games that can still impress curious gamers.

I think chadtowers testimony that vendors were badmouthing the machine is probably true of many other retailers across the country. I remember too many people just outright turning their heads at a new machine made by ATARI. I think alot of people considered it a joke from the get-go to be honest, as the Atari label didn't have the greatest reputation after the horrible handling of the 7800, not too mention alot of people associate the video game crash with Atari as well. Yeah, there were bad, very bad games on the Jaguar, but every system has them. There was a shortage of releases, but Nintendo does this every system during the first year of release, Nintendo is notorious for delayed releases of games.

I dont think the Jaguar suffered because it just had bad games, because some of the games are system sellers. I believe the biggest factor to its demise was people weren't willing to give ATARI a chance at that time. By the time some of the stellar games came out like Rayman, and Iron Soldier, the PSX was released. Game over, 3-d hijacked gamers minds and thats all she wrote.

I would like to see what the number of Jaguar systems were sold in the USA, because if its a low number like 100,000 then that would indicate to me that it didn't sell because of bad games, but because no one gave it a chance. If its a large number like 1,000,000, then that would indicate the Jag was given a chance, but the bad games drove gamers away. Or, I could not even know what the hell I'm talking about, but I like to speculate :-D

[Rogmeister]

Gunstar hero wrote:


I felt the same way at one point, I felt that I had pretty much gotten everything I wanted out of the Jaguar, and when the PSX was released I traded up and sold off all my Jag stuff to get a PSX. One of the games I eventually bought for PSX was Tempest X3, but there was something it was missing. Tempest X3 isn't as good as Tempest 2000, its been along time since I played X3, but I don't remember meltovision, or the bonus stages, or warp stages on X3, plus the music was different right? It's been so long though, I could be mistaken on a couple of those points.

You're right in that there are differences. I've seen some warp stages which seem similar and you're right in that the music is different...kind of a different mix. I doubtless prefer the Jag music myself. Another thing I notice is at the beginning of the game when you choose the level you want to play, the Jag version has the field come at you and break up a bit (a neat effect) while the PSX game just disappears and goes into the regular stage. I doubt I will ever get rid of my Jaguar and, as I said, I did keep 20 games for it and I'll likely even look for some games from time to time.

As far as it failing, I think it was partly that people didn't give it a chance and that neither did companies...very few major 3rd party companies did anything for it. It's also one of the few consoles that never got a single baseball game. The large number of bad games obviously didn't help as well...

[RetroYoungen]

I've got to say that three main factors were involved in the fall of the beautiful, magestic beast: games, marketing (or lack thereof), and the controller.

Let's face it, it's library wasn't really top-notch when compared to Atari's other consoles. Games like Dragon: The Bruce Lee Story and Bubsy just won't cut it in a cut-throat market. Marketing? Where was it? And if they had another controller to choose from instead of the large, long pad they came up with, maybe it wouldn't have made a big difference. (If their current controller was one recommended for games like Doom and Wolfenstein, then no issue would have come up.)

Still, buying one just to be able to get addicted to Tempest 2000 is worth it... if only there were a step-down program to help me get work down and cut down my play time...

[Rogmeister]

I lot of people have complained about the Jaguar's controller but I really have no problem with it. I find it very comfortable. I don't keep the system JUST for Tempest 2000...I also like their version of Doom and Wolfenstein 3D as well as Alien Vs. Predator. I think I'll pull it out again in another week or so.

Here's another thought...many (most?) of the early Jaguar games had absolutely no music...maybe a bit during the title screen. In one or two games (Doom especially) the absence of music is effective. In others, it's simply annoying.

[Gunstarhero]

I never had issues with the shape and feel of the Jaguar controller. I find it quite comfortable, especially compared to the the cramped style of NES, or SNES controllers. My problem with the Jag controller is all those keypad buttons, I just can never get used to having to find the right button WHILE playing. I just can't do it without looking at the keypad, and it becomes a real nuisance when playing something that uses all those buttons, like Trevor McFur (which I like). Surely Atari would have had some kind of market research from the 5200, finding that people didn't like all the buttons on that controller! But on the contrary, I find myself quite intrigued by the Keypad Overlays, I really like those things, they add flavor to games like AvP...go figure! I also noticed that the controllers come unplugged from the Jag very easily for some reason, on both Jaguars I've owned. Is this common among all Jags?

EGM used to always complain about the lack of music in Jaguar games, especially when it came to DOOM. When they rated DOOM for 32x, and Jaguar, they gave Jag DOOM mediocre ratings based on the lack of music, and the 32x version got near perfect ratings with no complaints! Even though Jag DOOM far and away kills the 32x version, hell the 32x version isn't even full screen, and it doesn't have a save feature! Plus it has less monsters than the Jaguar version. EGM used to really have a grudge against Atari and the Jaguar, I don't feel they ever reviewed Jag games with a fair amount of objectivity. They complained about the lack of music in AvP for cryin out loud, its like they just didn't want to give anything on the Jag a good review, until Tempest 2000 came out, and then, still, not as high a review as some other regular SNES games.

[lionforce]

Since we're discussing the Jag, does anyone know where I can purchase the S-Video Jaguar cables from?

[themessage]

Well the worst basketball game of all time was released for the Jaguar...White Men Can't Jump. I only have a few Jaguar games, so I'm not too sure about how good the music is, but the music for this game goes like this:
"white....black....white...black...jewish.......... ....black....white....white...black...jewish".

[stargate]

The reason the Jaguar failed is because the Turbografx 16 outsold it.







:-D

[zektor]

There are a few reasons the Jaguar failed:

1. Stores and customers were not trusting Atari much at the point of it's release. After the 7800 and the Lynx, I think alot of owners of these systems had a bad taste in their mouths. As a matter of fact, I remember going to a game store at the time asking about it and one of the employees even said they weren't going to carry it because of how badly the previous systems did.

2. The pack in game didn't really appeal to many people. This is supposed to be the first reason to buy a system (at that time) and this is probably why even the TG16 had some problems selling. The Genesis flew off the shelves with an included game that everyone at the time seemed to love and it was hot in the arcades, Altered Beast.

3. Very poor marketing. The system hadn't even been tapped into cartridge wise and Atari jumped the gun and introduced a CD unit that looked like a toilet bowl cover...many magazines referred to it as just that. I think Atari wanted to get into the next gen CD thing quickly, but I think others saw it as a sign of the Jaguar not being powerful enough on its own without it...which was definitely not the fact.

4. While I agree there are a few great titles for the machine, the bottom line is that the rest of them were just poor. Any machine is nothing in the marketplace without good games...and more than just a handful.

There are many more reasons of course, but these come to mind first.

[Gunstarhero]

Since we're discussing the Jag, does anyone know where I can purchase the S-Video Jaguar cables from?

Ebay. Be prepared to spend a minimum of $30 for it. Sorry, I don't know of any retailer to just buy one from or I'd tell ya. Maybe someone else can help.

[Aswald]

Tramiels.