Classic Gaming PCs - What's In Your Rig?

[NayusDante]

Given that PC gaming has never had set standards and specs, a lot of games require different hardware to even run. I personally like to run the older games on appropriate hardware, without speedup or crappy sound emulation.

Enter the "ultimate DOS box." I was inspired by an article (http://www.spacequest.net/misc/customsqpc/) on a Space Quest site, and figured I should give new life to my old machine. Originally an HP Pavilion 8260 from 1997, this machine has seen some SERIOUS use over the years.

It shipped with 32mb PC100 SDRAM. That's fine for Windows 95, but it's rather low for gaming. Now, it has 64+32 for a total of 96. More than enough.

The onboard video was an ATI Mach32 or something like that. I don't think I ever got anything Direct3D to run on it, and I remember FF7 crashing in the first battle. I've had my VooDoo 3 2000 in there since those were brand new and it still performs quite well. Not the absolute best card there is for Glide stuff, but it's still a darn good card.

Back in '97, a 3.73gb HDD was the SHIZZ. Most games took maybe 15-30mb for an install, 400 for the big stuff. These days, however, running your games from the CD drive is annoying, especially when the drive spins down to idle and makes the system pause while it spins up again. An 80gb drive just to hold games works here.

I eventually figured out that the original soundcard was an Ensoniq Soundscape or something, after years of wondering what audio settings to use in DOS stuff. Now, I'm using a Creative AWE64. AWE32 mode works for newer DOS stuff, and SB16 works for the older stuff. Roland emulation is a feature, and it works in some stuff. The sound fonts are nice, so it sounds darn good for synthesized audio.

I replaced all the drives, simply because they just sucked. The CD-ROM was a slow 24x and the floppy had a proprietary design. I had old ones sitting around, so there was no reason not to. I also have an Iomega Zip drive installed.

Lastly, the case had to go. It was big, heavy, and I couldn't resist seeing a brand new (nice!) case for $15 at CompUSA last Friday.


I'm running Windows 95 on the old hard disk, which only takes up about 180mb fully configured with drivers. I maximized available conventional memory for DOS applications using this (http://winmac.mvps.org/win95dos.html) guide, adjusting for my particular drivers and hardware. I transfer files back and forth using a USB Zip drive, which eliminates the need for either networking or burning CDs.

Here's my system configuration files:

AUTOEXEC.BAT

@ECHO OFF
PROMPT $p$g
SET BLASTER=A220 I5 D1 H5 P330 E620 T6
SET PATH=C:\WINDOWS;C:\WINDOWS\COMMAND
SET SOUND=C:\PROGRA~1\CREATIVE\CTSND
SET MIDI=SYNTH:1 MAP:E MODE:0
SET FX_GLIDE_NO_SPLASH=1
LH /L:0;3,25168 /S c:\msmouse\mouse.exe

REM PATH C:\QTW\BIN;
REM SET LIB=C:\QTW\LIB;
REM SET INCLUDE=C:\QTW\INC;



CONFIG.SYS

DEVICE=C:\WINDOWS\HIMEM.SYS /M:1
DEVICE=C:\WINDOWS\EMM386.EXE RAM HIGHSCAN I=B000-B7FF WIN=B500-B7FF WIN=B200-B4FF
BUFFERS=20,0
FILES=100
DOS=UMB
LASTDRIVE=Z
FCBS=4,0
DOS=HIGH
SHELL=C:\WINDOWS\COMMAND.COM C:\WINDOWS /E:1024 /P
DEVICEHIGH /L:2,16976 =C:\WINDOWS\SETVER.EXE
DEVICEHIGH /L:2,3712 =C:\WINDOWS\IFSHLP.SYS
DEVICEHIGH /L:2,9728 =C:\WINDOWS\COMMAND\ANSI.SYS



MSDOS.SYS

[Paths]
WinDir=C:\WINDOWS
WinBootDir=C:\WINDOWS
HostWinBootDrv=C

[Options]
;BootGUI=1
BootMenu=1
BootMenuDelay= 10
BootMulti=1
Logo=0
Network=0
;
;The following lines are required for compatibility with other programs.
;Do not remove them (MSDOS.SYS needs to be >1024 bytes).
;xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxa
;xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxb
;xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxc
;xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxd
;xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxe
;xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxf
;xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxg
;xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxh
;xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxi
;xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxj
;xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxk
;xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxl
;xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxm
;xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxn
;xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxo
;xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxp
;xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxq
;xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxr
;xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxs


And here's a few pictures:

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3030/2925543196_e59c1a9228_b.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3178/2924765943_ecb6f76d0c.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3153/2925620180_6f86af3374_b.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3118/2924688853_226241eb9e_o.png


Does anybody else had a dedicated machine for older games? What hardware are you using? What games do you think should/need to be played on older hardware?

[fpbrush]

I was actually wondering how you were playing all those old PC games you've been posting in the finds thread... so this answers it! I might need to do something like this someday, as I was pretty sad when I moved to XP and realized alot of favorites no longer worked. And then even sadder when I moved to Mac... a dedicated 95 machine seems the way to go though (or at least a partition?)

edit: I do think the beige box look is rather charming though.

[Gapporin]

I actually wrote a long thread detailing just this prodecure; you can see it here (http://www.digitpress.com/forum/showthread.php?t=118089). If you have a case of the tl;dr's, here are just the basic specs:

IBM ThinkPad 380ED 2635-6AU
MS-DOS 6.22
166MHz CPU
16MB RAM
3GB HD
20x internal CD-Rom Drive
24x external parallel CD-Rom Drive (for reading CD-RW discs)

This is a pretty satisfactory setup (some might say excessive) if you just want to play DOS games. It should also run most Windows 95 games as well. Windows 98 might be pushing it.

One more thing I'd like to do is procure an external HD that runs off of parallel and use it for extra space and to run Windows 95, while keeping DOS on the main computer.

[Overbite]

I just built a new computer with vista and everything but now I can't play old games as well as I used to :( I may have to build an old computer. Should be a lot cheaper at least.

[NayusDante]

I particularly like this setup, since I can play everything from the ancient DOS stuff like D&D Goldbox (with MoSlo) to the newer, even Quake 3 engine stuff. I remember I ran Elite Force on this machine back in the day.

VooDoo cards are quite useful. I've seen proof of Doom 3 running on old VooDoos, albeit with a lot of hacks. In terms of visual quality, they're absolutely awesome. They might drop a frame or two when they're under a load, but there's no tearing or vertical sync issues.

[Ze_ro]

A so-called "classic" computer, but no 5.25" drive? Blasphemy!

My DOS machine is an old Pentium: 133MHz, 64 MB of RAM, two 1GB hard drives (system and applications on one, games on the other), ATI Mach 64 graphics card, Sound Blaster 16, and generic 3.5" (A), 5.25" (B), and CD-ROM drives. It shares a monitor (and a desk) with my Amiga 3000 (I need a new VGA switch.. the one I have is terrible and causes lots of problems). I have an old-school Gravis joystick, but I usually prefer to just use the keyboard for most game. The machine ONLY runs MS-DOS 6.11 (with a variety of personal additions), though I have Windows 3.11 installed on there for shits and giggles.

I also have it outfitted with a special memory card reader for dealing with Atari Portfolio memory cards (this requires an external box as well as an ISA card), and it's connected to a Commodore 1571 for reading/writing C64 disks (X1541 + Parallel cable for faster transfers).

I don't have the autoexec and config on hand (and I can't be arsed to get them :P ), but I rewrote them from hand with menus (http://www.geocities.com/politalk/dos/bootmenu.htm) for different configurations... this lets me choose whether I use EMM386 (602k free), QEMM (634k free!), or no extended memory (needed for Ultima VII).

I have a Gravis UltraSound sitting around that I've been meaning to work into the setup, though it requires two IRQ's, and I'm low on ISA ports as it is (I'll likely hold out for a Roland MT-32 before I try to work a second sound card into there). I also have a set of PCMCIA slots fitted to a 3.5" enclosure connected to an ISA card that I'd like to at least test out, but there are two ribbon cables involved in this, and there's already little enough breathing room in that case.

--Zero

[Push Upstairs]

I'm 90% there to having a "Classic Gaming PC" I've got everything but a HDD and Windows 98 (which I had, but I formatted that HD for another project).

If I knew how where to find Win98 + a 20gig HDD for real cheap I might consider it...but I don't really know how a system like that would handle my widescreen LCD monitor.

[Overbite]

having a widescreen lcd monitor on that computer is like having a $500 audio system in a 96 honda civic.

[NayusDante]

I've ALWAYS wanted a 5.25" drive. I have THREE Apple II 5.25" drives, but no way to interface them. My mom ran over a can of paint in the garage years ago, which gave my dad an excuse to throw out my C64+disk drive (which I actually had hooked up), Apple IIE, and most of my misc Apple II stuff from garage sales.

Widescreen LCDs are great when they have their own scaler with fixed aspect ratio. Mine just scales everything to its own size, unless the source scales it first. Only newer ATI/nVidia drivers have that option. My old CRT is either here on the desk or in the closet, so I might as well use it.

I'd love to get 634k ram free, if you have the info on setting that up. As long as I have a decent mouse driver and my AWE64 works, I'm good.

I really considered doing a pure DOS system, but I need Windows to configure the soundfonts on the AWE64 and it's just a lot easier to manage everything. I run most DOS stuff by enabling DOS mode on the shortcut properties, so Windows is really just a frontend, except for true Windows stuff. I get a darn good framerate in Quake II at max settings at 800x600. Any higher, and it disables the 3DFX driver and goes to software...

[Push Upstairs]

having a widescreen lcd monitor on that computer is like having a $500 audio system in a 96 honda civic.

I'm rather limited on space, so the monitor is going to have to be shared.

If I lived on a vast estate like you, I could have a separate monitor for a Win98 computer.

[Blanka789]

I've been interested in building one of these, is it hard?

[Jorpho]

ANSI.SYS? Oh dear. There are much better alternatives to that if you're really serious. NANSI.SYS, for instance. (Of course, if you're not interested in running ceratin wacky old text-mode games - which would probably run much too quickly on this setup anyway without a slowdown utility - there's really no need to have it at all!)

Anyway, see this thread:
http://www.digitpress.com/forum/showthread.php?t=96878

The machine ONLY runs MS-DOS 6.11 (with a variety of personal additions)You do mean 6.22, right?

I'll likely hold out for a Roland MT-32 before I try to work a second sound card into thereLast I heard, those were darned expensive.


I've been interested in building one of these, is it hard?It depends on how picky you are, and on the availability of reliable old parts in your area. But in general, it's not very difficult at all.

I strongly suggest getting USB ports one way or another, because wrangling with constantly-failing floppies gets old real quick, and trying to configure a network with another PC is likewise frustrating.

[jdc]

Hmmm. I know nothing about PCs. My dedicated gaming PC, built by a friend for me, is a brute and runs Crysis. That's all I know. I do have a bunch of older PC RPG and RTS games that I'd love to play. My son "won" one of his school's old non-tower (it's the horizontal case type) Pentium PCs when they upgraded last year...and we've literally done nothing with it since the day he brought it home. After seeing this thread, I think that I've witnessed it's new usage. Time to get busy on building a classic gaming PC.

[natinh0]

Got my not-so-old pc and powered it on yersterday,and got some retro pleasures since then:
Don´t remember de proc, but it is a 2.9ghz single core
1Gb ram
HD 40GB and another 20GB

How about the games?
Grandia 2
Daytona USA Deluxe
Sega Rally Championship 2
Panzer Dragoon
Virtua Fighter

[NayusDante]

Got my not-so-old pc and powered it on yersterday,and got some retro pleasures since then:
Don´t remember de proc, but it is a 2.9ghz single core
1Gb ram
HD 40GB and another 20GB

How about the games?
Grandia 2
Daytona USA Deluxe
Sega Rally Championship 2
Panzer Dragoon
Virtua Fighter

That's actually a decent computer. It's a bit overpowered for old games, and I can't guarantee you'll find Windows 98 or lower drivers for it. What OS are you running?

And Grandia 2 is awesome. I remember it ran GREAT and looked AMAZING on my AMD Athlon 1800+ (1533mhz) and my GeForce 4 Ti4400, with 512mb DDR333. Last I checked, it still ran on modern hardware, so give that a try first and max out your resolution.

[natinh0]

Yep, i´m having some HEAVY fun playing it,i´m using Winxp and oh, forgot to mention that it has a GeforceFX5500.
The good point of this machine is that the feeling of being a console-pc-hybrid because of the games, 90% is fast paced Arcade conversions and a great console RPG with AMAZING graphics, man, some textures are breath-taking.

[FxMercenary]

I actually just got done building a retro PC a few months ago!

Windows 98 SE Plus!
Intel P2 450mHz
512 MB Crucial pc 133
old audio64 sound card
Hercules 3D Prophet II Ultra ( GeForce 2's top of the line card )

I build it out of an old gateway p2 box, been playing duke nukem, doom and others like Tie Fighter and Mechwarrior 2!

Piece together an old PC while you can, 99.9% of the parts are recycled.

Ive got a feeling old gaming PCs are going to have a huge niche!

http://www.sharkyextreme.com/hardware/reviews/video/hercules_3d_prophet2_ultra/board.jpg

[natinh0]

Yeah Fx, this is the feeling, i have one question for you guys:
How do you manage to get the games, buy them or download the abandonwares?
For me abandonware is the way, it is simple too hard to find any retro pc games.

[NayusDante]

Does anybody know how to get Mechwarrior 2 3DFX edition to run on a VooDoo 3 or any other card, for that matter? I have 3 copies of the game (DOS, Win95, and 3DFX), and I'd much rather get the enhanced 3DFX version to run again without using my old VooDoo 2. My machine requires BIOS resets and junk every time I switch hardware, so it's a big pain.

[namzep]

I wouldn't mind getting a classic PC setup but don't really have the space for it. Will have to make it by with DOS Box for the time being, I guess. Though, I have at least half the parts from an old 586 sitting around here, somewhere.

[Jorpho]

Yeah Fx, this is the feeling, i have one question for you guys:
How do you manage to get the games, buy them or download the abandonwares?
For me abandonware is the way, it is simple too hard to find any retro pc games.There's still quite a selection at http://www.cdaccess.com , and I still find some curious items at Value Village (a Canadian Goodwill-style store). And of course there's eBay. So, no, it's not really that hard.


Does anybody know how to get Mechwarrior 2 3DFX edition to run on a VooDoo 3 or any other card, for that matter? I have 3 copies of the game (DOS, Win95, and 3DFX), and I'd much rather get the enhanced 3DFX version to run again without using my old VooDoo 2. My machine requires BIOS resets and junk every time I switch hardware, so it's a big pain.Is the 3DFX version for Windows or DOS? If you don't want to use the actual hardware, then you'll either have to use a Glide wrapper (if it's Windows) or dgVoodoo (if it's for DOS). See http://vogons.zetafleet.com/viewtopic.php?t=13805 and related threads at VOGONS.

[NayusDante]

The 3DFX edition is Windows only, to my knowlege.

[Blanka789]

So what's the sweet spot for these things as far as processors go? Something 486-ish? Pentium? Pentium II?

I'm mainly looking to run DOS and Windows 95, although if I could do a tri-boot and put 98 on there too, that'd be great. Possible? I know Pentium II's could handle both 95 & 98, but I don't wanna throw out support for the DOS games. Maybe if I used two different video cards?

[NayusDante]

Video card shoudn't matter for DOS, since DirectX is a Windows API. 3DFX Glide is supported in SOME DOS stuff, but not a whole lot.

A 486 might be fine for DOS stuff, but the later games might lag a bit. A Pentium would be pretty good for DOS, and reasonably good for Windows. I personally use a P2, which is excellent for Windows, and more than enough for DOS. Give MoSlo a try, you'll see that more speed is better for a DOS system since you can slow down DOS apps.

[Ze_ro]

I'd love to get 634k ram free, if you have the info on setting that up. As long as I have a decent mouse driver and my AWE64 works, I'm good.
I'll see if I can get the startup files off the computer and post them. I'm a little busy with work and Canadian Thanksgiving this weekend though. Having to have AWE64 drivers might hurt things though.


You do mean 6.22, right?

Last I heard, [Roland MT-32] were darned expensive.
Yeah, I did mean 6.22.... As for a Roland, I'm hoping I'll just eventually find one at the thrift store. That's how I got most of my other hardware.


I strongly suggest getting USB ports one way or another, because wrangling with constantly-failing floppies gets old real quick, and trying to configure a network with another PC is likewise frustrating.
I've never had much luck trying to get USB to work in DOS unfortunately (I generally rely on 3.5" disks for getting stuff to the machine, and burning CD's for the larger programs). But for those of you running "classic" systems with Win 98, definitely go for it. (Man, it makes me feel old when you guys aren't even running DOS on these machines!)


Yeah Fx, this is the feeling, i have one question for you guys:
How do you manage to get the games, buy them or download the abandonwares?
For me abandonware is the way, it is simple too hard to find any retro pc games.
I find them at the thrift stores once in a while... but mostly abandonware.


So what's the sweet spot for these things as far as processors go? Something 486-ish? Pentium? Pentium II?

I'm mainly looking to run DOS and Windows 95, although if I could do a tri-boot and put 98 on there too, that'd be great.
If you're just going to do DOS, I'd go with whatever can run Quake at a good framerate, as that's about the highest-end DOS game you'll get... I'd suggest around a mid-level Pentium is enough there. Anything faster won't really help at all.

If you're going to run Win 95/98, I'd probably go with something a little faster, as the extra speed and memory will be beneficial. Since old computers are all over the place, I'd just go with whatever is cheap and available. Also, I don't know if there's much point in having Win 95 *and* Win 98 available at bootup. Is there really anything that works in 95 but not in 98?


Video card shoudn't matter for DOS, since DirectX is a Windows API. 3DFX Glide is supported in SOME DOS stuff, but not a whole lot.
Oh yeah, I forgot I actually have a Voodoo 2 card in my DOS computer... but I don't think I ever set up any software to actually use it.

As for video cards, I wouldn't recommend using anything too modern for an older system. Some of the newer cards abandon older graphics modes and settings that are no longer used, but which you very well might hit on while playing old DOS games. In any case, if you buy an old Pentium, chances are you're getting an old video card with it. As long as it has a couple of megs of graphics RAM, I don't think you'll have much trouble.

--Zero

[Nophix]

I'm in the process of throwing one together now. I have an old Compaq Presario with a 500mhz AMD. Currently I have it running 384mb RAM, but I do have anoter 512mb chip in my desk at work from a scrap bin of parts I'll be using. I also have and old Savage S3 card(128mb) and an old GeForce 5500(256mb I believe).

I have a couple of sound cards ranging from a SB Audigy to a Yamaha card I loved in my old 1.2mhz rig.

It's running a 20gb drive main, with a 40gb secondary, and a DVD ROM.

Right now it's loaded with Windows 2k SP4, and I'm looking for drivers. If I have no luck with that, I'll go back to Win98. It originally had ME on it I think.

It's getting taken a step further than just old PC games, though. It's going to be loaded with a MAME emulator for retro arcade goodness. Then I just need to build the controllers.

[Jorpho]

Windows 2000? Sounds rather contradictory to the goal of running older games.


Also, I don't know if there's much point in having Win 95 *and* Win 98 available at bootup. Is there really anything that works in 95 but not in 98?Indeed, I have hardly heard of any such thing. Those who insist on getting rid of Internet Explorer can use 98lite (http://www.litepc.com/).

[Blanka789]

Windows 2000? Sounds rather contradictory to the goal of running older games.

Indeed, I have hardly heard of any such thing. Those who insist on getting rid of Internet Explorer can use 98lite (http://www.litepc.com/).

Well I'm sure there are a few things that run on 95 and not 98. More importantly though (and why I really want 98), I'm almost certain there are games that run on 98 and not 95. Particularly, I believe Grim Fandango is one.

[NayusDante]

That VooDoo 2 is either an accellerator card (requires another VIDEO card, and a passthrough VGA cable) or it's that standalone VooDoo 2 card, which was actually called something else (wasn't it the Banshee?). If it's the former, then you should be able to remove it from your system and not see any difference. To actually USE those cards, you need proper drivers and configuration.

The passthrough cable should be the same thing as any old VGA extension cable.

Look at the back of the card, is there both a VGA input and output?

[Push Upstairs]

Where can I get a copy of Win98 other than ebay? Amazon lists it but Win98 is hardly worth dropping nearly $50 for it (anymore).

[NayusDante]

If you just want to run Windows applications on a computer, google "ReactOS." It's still in testing phases, but it's close to running on real hardware.

Since it's so ancient, M$ should really release it to the public. Some kind of "Microsoft Legacy Software Support Initiative" would be wonderful. Imagine all the old versions of M$ software being free after so many years.

[mezrabad]

I've got a "Leading Edge" 386 portable computer. It has a lcd-half screen and no sound... I don't even think it "beeps". The last thing I used it for was to emulate a TRS-80 around 2002. I keep it around becuase it does have a place to hook up a monitor/keyboard. It's actually kinda cool to play an old text adventure game and hear the disk drive spinning away. Not that I've actually had time to do that lately.

I've got a Toshiba laptop, 486 DX4100 running Win 98 SE. I use it to play anything related to Ultima up to Ultima VI. It also comes in handy for emulation of older system, like TRS-80, PET or Apple ][. I've also gotten it to chug out a pretty decent running of Elder Scrolls: Arena, but that's "pushing it". What I love having this machine for, is the PC Card I put in it doubles as a Sound Card and a MIDI controller. It "plays" my Yamaha Clavinova for me. I'm pretty sure it would "record" what I play, too, I just haven't played anything worth recording lately.

I've got some kind of Pentium Laptop with no functional screen. It's currently outputting to an old 17" Monitor. My little girl uses it for all the 90's edutainment games we've accumulated from people who didn't want them anymore. The most important use of this system is for playing System Shock and Daggerfall.

Last of the oldies is a P2-400 which sits in my MAME cabinet but hasn't actually been hooked up for quite some time. I may drag it out again someday to play System Shock 2 or rig it to run Ultima 8. or maybe even hook it up to the MAME cab again.

Ideally, I would emulate all of the earlier system on a nicely quick newer system. The closest I was able to come to Daggerfall working well on a "modern" system was an iMac running DosBox back in 2006. My current PC, a Laptop from 2002, just doesn't have the muscle to run DOSbox at a speed higher than a 386. :(

Though, my main problem at playing PC games anymore, is that I spend all week typing in a chat interface (tech support) and sitting down and typing some more, even to play a game, just wears me out. :(

[cyberfluxor]

Where can I get a copy of Win98 other than ebay? Amazon lists it but Win98 is hardly worth dropping nearly $50 for it (anymore).

I agree. I have a few CD Keys from systems I've bought so I just reuse them and have just one Windows 98 SE install disc from years ago. Your best bet is to look through thrift stores where they have audio CDs and older PC stuff. I've come across quite a few in my time for a buck or two but pass them up. I have all the keys I need but if I see another disc at some point I may pick it up if someone needs it that bad.

[Jorpho]

Well I'm sure there are a few things that run on 95 and not 98.I wouldn't be so sure. The major compatibility issue that I'm aware of is FAT32, which isn't something you necessarily have to use and was already in Windows 95B anyway.

I'm almost certain there are games that run on 98 and not 95. Particularly, I believe Grim Fandango is one.O rly? Seems a bit odd, but I can't say I ever tried that myself.

that standalone VooDoo 2 card, which was actually called something else (wasn't it the Banshee?)That it was.

If you just want to run Windows applications on a computer, google "ReactOS." It's still in testing phases, but it's close to running on real hardware. Have you tried it yourself? I am curious.

Since it's so ancient, M$ should really release it to the public. Some kind of "Microsoft Legacy Software Support Initiative" would be wonderful. Imagine all the old versions of M$ software being free after so many years.You might have heard of "Windows Fundamentals for Legacy PCs", or "WinFLP", a stripped-down version of XP which is unfortunately not available to the general public.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Fundamentals_for_Legacy_PCs
Unfortunately, I don't think Microsoft would release something like that for free, because the haXors would probably find some way to make it run all kinds of new stuff, and the corporate folks would jump at the opportunity to lower their costs, and Microsoft would stand to lose plenty.

Where can I get a copy of Win98 other than ebay? Amazon lists it but Win98 is hardly worth dropping nearly $50 for it (anymore).There was an old version of Virtual PC for Macintosh that came bundled with a perfectly ordinary Windows 98 CD, but I reckon you'd be lucky to find that for cheap either.

[NayusDante]

I tried to install ReactOS on my AMD Athlon 1800+. Didn't boot. They used to supply preconfigured QEMU images to try it out, so check it out that way. They've gotten a lot running, such as Unreal Tournament, Windows Solitaire, etc.

I remember hearing about the WinFLP program. Still, that's a different idea. WinFLP is a NEW OS for OLD computers. I want to see availability of an OLD OS for OLD computers.

[Overbite]

I'm rather limited on space, so the monitor is going to have to be shared.

If I lived on a vast estate like you, I could have a separate monitor for a Win98 computer.

Do what I do and just throw out the bed. I can sleep on a chair just fine!

[Ze_ro]

Well I'm sure there are a few things that run on 95 and not 98. More importantly though (and why I really want 98), I'm almost certain there are games that run on 98 and not 95. Particularly, I believe Grim Fandango is one.
If you're looking to broaden the compatibility, I'd say instead of DOS+Win95+Win98 you might want to try DOS+OS/2+Win98. I'm not sure how many games there are for OS/2, but I'd venture a guess and say that the number is higher than the number that work exclusively on 95.


The passthrough cable should be the same thing as any old VGA extension cable.
All of the VGA passthrough cables I've seen used a round DIN connector on the 3dfx side, in fact, the same connector that the 32X video passthrough uses.


Where can I get a copy of Win98 other than ebay? Amazon lists it but Win98 is hardly worth dropping nearly $50 for it (anymore).
Frankly, I suggest piracy. It's not like Microsoft will be getting any money from a 2nd hand purchase anyways.


I wouldn't be so sure. The major compatibility issue that I'm aware of is FAT32, which isn't something you necessarily have to use and was already in Windows 95B anyway.
I guess the smart thing to do then would be to stick with FAT16... any attempt to dual boot with MS-DOS would require FAT16 anyways (I think there are FAT32 drivers for DOS, but that's just extra work and probably wasted memory... plus, I'm not sure if DOS can boot off FAT32. Does anyone know?).

--Zero

[Blanka789]

I remember hearing about OS/2, but never really understood what it was. Is it really compatible with more titles than 95? Also, does it use a similar interface? I don't want to be totally lost when using it.

[Push Upstairs]

If you just want to run Windows applications on a computer, google "ReactOS." It's still in testing phases, but it's close to running on real hardware.

I wonder how well it runs DOS games. I know their screenshots show "Day of the Tentacle", but I'm wondering more Duke3D/Shadow Warrior.


Do what I do and just throw out the bed. I can sleep on a chair just fine!

I'd have to run that past the girlfriend, and the answer is beyond impossible.

[Jorpho]

If you're looking to broaden the compatibility, I'd say instead of DOS+Win95+Win98 you might want to try DOS+OS/2+Win98. I'm not sure how many games there are for OS/2, but I'd venture a guess and say that the number is higher than the number that work exclusively on 95.But why would you want to play any of that vanishingly small number of OS/2 games?


I guess the smart thing to do then would be to stick with FAT16... any attempt to dual boot with MS-DOS would require FAT16 anyways (I think there are FAT32 drivers for DOS, but that's just extra work and probably wasted memory... plus, I'm not sure if DOS can boot off FAT32. Does anyone know?).Well, you could always have MS-DOS on a separate FAT16 partition. It might have to be a primary partition, though, which could make things even tricker than usual.

Anyway, I doubt MS-DOS could boot from a FAT32 partition, but DR-DOS or FreeDOS probably could. I snub claims of inferior compatibility.


I remember hearing about OS/2, but never really understood what it was. Is it really compatible with more titles than 95? Also, does it use a similar interface? I don't want to be totally lost when using it.

OS/2 basically runs OS/2-exclusive programs along with ancient 16-bit Windows programs. (It might also run a few 32-bit Windows programs compatible with the Win32s API add-on that Windows 3.x could likewise use.) Check out eComStation if you're curious; that's the current incarnation of OS/2.

[Ze_ro]

So, here's my startup files:

CONFIG.SYS:

[menu]
menuitem=qs,Use QEMM (All Drivers, 634k free)
menuitem=emm,Use EMM386 (All Drivers, 610k free)
menuitem=ultima7,No Memory Manager, Sound & Mouse Only (Ultima 7)
menudefault=default,5

[emm]
FILES=40
DOS=HIGH,UMB
LASTDRIVE=G
FCBS=4,0
STACKS=9,256
DEVICE=C:\DOS\HIMEM.SYS /V
DEVICE=C:\DOS\EMM386.EXE I=C800-CFFF D=64 RAM /V
REM For Sound Card
DEVICEHIGH=C:\SB16\DRV\CTSB16.SYS /UNIT=0 /BLASTER=A:220 I:5 D:1 H:5
DEVICEHIGH=C:\SB16\DRV\CTMMSYS.SYS
DEVICEHIGH=C:\DRIVERS\CDROM\VIDE-CDD.SYS /D:MSCD000
REM For Portfolio Card Drive
DEVICEHIGH=C:\DRIVERS\PCCARD\CD.SYS
REM Attempt to use USB mass storage (Works, but not with SD-card reader)
REM DEVICE=C:\DRIVERS\USB\USBASPI.SYS /v
REM DEVICE=C:\DRIVERS\USB\DI1000DD.SYS /dS

[ultima7]
FILES=40
DOS=HIGH,UMB
LASTDRIVE=F
FCBS=4,0
STACKS=9,256
DEVICE=C:\DOS\HIMEM.SYS /V
DEVICE=C:\SB16\DRV\CTSB16.SYS /UNIT=0 /BLASTER=A:220 I:5 D:1 H:5
DEVICE=C:\SB16\DRV\CTMMSYS.SYS

[qs]
DEVICE=C:\QEMM\DOSDATA.SYS
SET LOADHIDATA=C:\QEMM\LOADHI.RF
DEVICE=C:\QEMM\QEMM386.SYS RAM RF
DEVICE=C:\QEMM\DOS-UP.SYS @C:\QEMM\DOS-UP.DAT
DEVICE=C:\QEMM\LOADHI.SYS /RF C:\QEMM\QDPMI.SYS SWAPFILE=DPMI.SWP SWAPSIZE=1024
FILES=40
DOS=HIGH,UMB
LASTDRIVE=G
FCBS=4,0
STACKS=9,256
REM For Sound Card
DEVICE=C:\QEMM\LOADHI.SYS /RF C:\SB16\DRV\CTSB16.SYS /UNIT=0 /BLASTER=A:220 I:5 D:1 H:5
DEVICE=C:\QEMM\LOADHI.SYS /RF C:\SB16\DRV\CTMMSYS.SYS
DEVICE=C:\QEMM\LOADHI.SYS /RF C:\DRIVERS\CDROM\VIDE-CDD.SYS /D:MSCD000
REM For Portfolio Card Drive
DEVICE=C:\QEMM\LOADHI.SYS /RF C:\DRIVERS\PCCARD\CD.SYS
SHELL=C:\QEMM\LOADHI.COM /RF C:\COMMAND.COM C:\ /P

AUTOEXEC.BAT:


@ECHO OFF
REM SET ATI_NOEE_M64=C:\DRIVERS\ATI\EEDATA.EE_
REM C:\DRIVERS\ATI\CUSTOM.COM q
PROMPT $p$g
PATH C:\QEMM;C:\WINDOWS;C:\DOS;C:\BIN;C:\NC;
SET TEMP=C:\DOS

SET SOUND=C:\SB16
SET BLASTER=A220 I5 D1 H5 P330 T6
SET MIDI=SYNTH:1 MAP:E

C:\SB16\DIAGNOSE /S
C:\SB16\SB16SET /P /Q

goto %config%

:emm
REM LH C:\DRIVERS\CDROM\MSCDEX.EXE /E /D:MSCD000
LH C:\DRIVERS\CDROM\SHSUCDX.COM /D:MSCD000
LH C:\DOS\SMARTDRV.EXE /X
LH C:\DOS\DOSKEY.COM
LH C:\DRIVERS\MOUSE\CTMOUSE.EXE
goto exit

:qs
C:\QEMM\LOADHI /RF C:\DRIVERS\CDROM\MSCDEX.EXE /E /D:MSCD000
REM C:\QEMM\LOADHI /RF C:\DRIVERS\CDROM\SHSUCDX.COM /D:MSCD000
C:\QEMM\LOADHI /RF C:\DOS\SMARTDRV.EXE /X
C:\QEMM\LOADHI /RF C:\DOS\DOSKEY.COM
C:\QEMM\LOADHI /RF C:\DRIVERS\MOUSE\CTMOUSE.EXE
goto exit

:ultima7
LH C:\DRIVERS\MOUSE\CTMOUSE.EXE
ECHO ,-------------------------------------------------------------.
ECHO NOTE: Remember, use Moslo to slow things down for Ultima 7!
ECHO 'moslo /40 ultima7.com' should do the trick.
ECHO `-------------------------------------------------------------'
goto exit

:exit
I've tried to keep things as clean and readable as possible, so it shouldn't be too hard to see what's going on, as long as you can get past the menuing commands. SHSUCDX is a replacement for MSCDEX... it take up less memory, and in my EMM386 configuration it frees up enough high memory that all of smartdrv can fit up there, saving me about 8k in total. But when I tried to work it into my QEMM setup, it actually resulted in LESS space free! It had something to do with smartdrv again, I think it was allocating more buffers or something... in any case, I think my QEMM setup is about as lean as it can get anyways.

--Zero

[Ze_ro]

And here are the corresponding outputs of "mem /c" :

Using QEMM Setup:

Modules using memory below 1 MB:

Name Total = Conventional + Upper Memory
-------- ---------------- ---------------- ----------------
SYSTEM 4,189 (4K) 721,149 (704K) 4,294,25 (4,193,
QEMM386 928 (1K) 928 (1K) 0 (0K)
LOADHI 112 (0K) 112 (0K) 0 (0K)
COMMAND 3,008 (3K) 272 (0K) 2,736 (3K)
DOS-UP 224 (0K) 0 (0K) 224 (0K)
DOSDATA 5,424 (5K) 0 (0K) 5,424 (5K)
QDPMI 2,000 (2K) 0 (0K) 2,000 (2K)
CTMMSYS 10,368 (10K) 0 (0K) 10,368 (10K)
VIDE-CDD 5,088 (5K) 0 (0K) 5,088 (5K)
FILES 2,096 (2K) 0 (0K) 2,096 (2K)
FCBS 272 (0K) 0 (0K) 272 (0K)
WKBUFFER 528 (1K) 0 (0K) 528 (1K)
STACKS 3,024 (3K) 0 (0K) 3,024 (3K)
INSTALL 160 (0K) 0 (0K) 160 (0K)
1 3,552 (3K) 0 (0K) 3,552 (3K)
CTSB16 26,880 (26K) 0 (0K) 26,880 (26K)
CD 1,952 (2K) 0 (0K) 1,952 (2K)
LASTDRIV 640 (1K) 0 (0K) 640 (1K)
MSCDEX 15,712 (15K) 0 (0K) 15,712 (15K)
SMARTDRV 30,368 (30K) 0 (0K) 30,368 (30K)
DOSKEY 4,144 (4K) 0 (0K) 4,144 (4K)
Free 695,728 (679K) 649,616 (634K) 46,112 (45K)

Memory Summary:

Type of Memory Total = Used + Free
---------------- ---------- ---------- ----------
Conventional 655,360 5,744 649,616
Upper 4,294,411, 4,294,365, 46,112
Reserved 393,216 393,216 0
Extended (XMS) 16,284,320 3,046,048 13,238,272
---------------- ---------- ---------- ----------
Total memory 16,777,216 2,843,216 13,934,000

Total under 1 MB 99,680 4,294,371, 695,728

Total Expanded (EMS) 16,056,320 (15,680K
Free Expanded (EMS) 13,238,272 (12,928K
Largest executable program size 649,600 (634K)
Largest free upper memory block 45,744 (45K)
MS-DOS is resident in the high memory area.

Using EMM386 Setup:

Modules using memory below 1 MB:

Name Total = Conventional + Upper Memory
-------- ---------------- ---------------- ----------------
MSDOS 16,333 (16K) 16,333 (16K) 0 (0K)
HIMEM 1,168 (1K) 1,168 (1K) 0 (0K)
EMM386 4,320 (4K) 4,320 (4K) 0 (0K)
COMMAND 2,976 (3K) 2,976 (3K) 0 (0K)
SHSUCDX 5,808 (6K) 5,808 (6K) 0 (0K)
CTSB16 26,880 (26K) 0 (0K) 26,880 (26K)
CTMMSYS 10,368 (10K) 0 (0K) 10,368 (10K)
VIDE-CDD 5,024 (5K) 0 (0K) 5,024 (5K)
CD 2,000 (2K) 0 (0K) 2,000 (2K)
SMARTDRV 29,024 (28K) 0 (0K) 29,024 (28K)
DOSKEY 4,144 (4K) 0 (0K) 4,144 (4K)
CTMOUSE 3,552 (3K) 0 (0K) 3,552 (3K)
Free 636,368 (621K) 624,560 (610K) 11,808 (12K)

Memory Summary:

Type of Memory Total = Used + Free
---------------- ---------- ---------- ----------
Conventional 655,360 30,800 624,560
Upper 92,800 80,992 11,808
Reserved 393,216 393,216 0
Extended (XMS)* 65,967,488 2,708,864 63,258,624
---------------- ---------- ---------- ----------
Total memory 67,108,864 3,213,872 63,894,992

Total under 1 MB 748,160 111,792 636,368

Total Expanded (EMS) 33,947,648 (33,152K
Free Expanded (EMS)* 33,554,432 (32,768K

* EMM386 is using XMS memory to simulate EMS memory as needed.
Free EMS memory may change as free XMS memory changes.

Largest executable program size 624,464 (610K)
Largest free upper memory block 11,376 (11K)
MS-DOS is resident in the high memory area.

As you can see, I save a good bit of memory with QEMM, though it comes at the price of compatibility, as some programs don't work with it (Windows 3.11 is one of them). The Ultima 7 setup is pretty unimpressive... only results in about 580k free, since I can't load a high memory manager, but it's enough to run Black Gate and Serpent Isle, so whatever.

--Zero

[NayusDante]

Ooooh, nice. I'll be trying these soon.

[Ze_ro]

I wouldn't recommend just dropping them in, since most of your files are probably in different places... But feel free to apply some of the tricks to your own files and you might save some memory. You'll also need CuteMouse (http://cutemouse.sourceforge.net/) and SHSUCDX (http://www.geocities.com/jadoxa/shsucdx/index.html). QEMM can be downloaded from here (http://www.chsoft.com/dv.html) (I'm not sure if QEMM is free software or not, but Wikipedia links to that page).

--Zero

[Gapporin]

QEMM is A+. I've only used about 15K of conventional memory with QEMM installed and that's with a whole load of drivers and TSR's installed.

Similiar to Ze_ro, I've got three different start-up menus for running DOS:

1. All drivers loaded with QEMM
2. Base drivers (internal CD-ROM, mouse) with EMM386
3. Base drivers (external CD-ROM, mouse) with EMM386

1 is obviously the default startup. 2 is for programs that choke on QEMM or otherwise disagree with it. 3 is to load my external CD-ROM drive instead the internal one. Not that both of them can be run at the same time (they can), but whenever you load the external driver and it can't find the drive, it'll stop loading and wait for a prompt to either skip the driver or plug in the drive.

And I'm picky about that, I prefer the startup to run from Point A to Point B without any stops in the middle. And since I don't usually bring the external drive with me everywhere I go, I set it up so that it only loads the driver when I'm actually using said drive (through use of the different menus). Otherwise, it'll stay commented.

[Jorpho]

The Ultima 7 setup is pretty unimpressive... only results in about 580k free, since I can't load a high memory manager, but it's enough to run Black Gate and Serpent Isle, so whatever.UMBPCI supposedly works quite nicely with U7.

[natinh0]

tried to run Battle Arena Toshinden 2 but it is way fast, how can i fix it?

[Jorpho]

tried to run Battle Arena Toshinden 2 but it is way fast, how can i fix it?Depends on what kind of computer you're trying to run it on. If it's a Windows game and your computer is relatively new, get Throttle (http://www.oldskool.org/pc/throttle). If it's an old game and you're running it in DOS on an old computer, MoSlo is the ticket.

[NayusDante]

I kinda wanted my desk back, so I moved the Old+LeetBox(TM) to my TV.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3070/2943088400_65ce21584e.jpg?v=0


And I installed the MiniGL for Quake 2 from the 3DFX driver CD, runs a bit better now.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3001/2943111864_f4f1ec1af7.jpg?v=0

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3289/2943110184_1a339925c5.jpg?v=0

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3042/2943108362_2eea603281.jpg?v=0

I love 3DFX card image quality. They're just so... solid.

[JunkTheMagicDragon]

i tricked out an old dec workstation (celebris gl 6200) i got for free as as my dos/win98 machine. one spare hd and a copy of win98 and she was good to go. it's a beast of a machine, heavily built. it was also my first case mod, so i went a little wild and tried a bunch of things. i sanded it smooth and painted it in color-shifting paint, which isn't as dramatic as i thought it would be, since a light source is rarely moving in relation to the pc. live and learn i guess.

i also upgraded it as much as i could and even lit it with some red cathodes.

current specs:

333mhz pentiumII overdrive (socket 8)
160mb edo-ram
20gb wd hd
ati rageII (will probably throw in a geforce2 one day for shits and giggles)
creative awe64 sound

i mostly use it for mechwarrior 2, duke3d, quake, heretic, doom, and wolf3d.

i would take pics but my cameraphone takes sucky pics.

[NayusDante]

Do you have the soundfonts loaded on your Awe64? I'm using the one that uses all 512kb and all DOS stuff sounds great.

[JunkTheMagicDragon]

nope, but i'll try it next time i hook her up to the network .

thanks for the tip.

[Zap!]

having a widescreen lcd monitor on that computer is like having a $500 audio system in a 96 honda civic.

I can top that. I had an AVIC-D3 navigation ($700) in my beat-up 1989 Mustang LX. I took the D3 out and sold the 'stang. I got $1,050. I was lucky.