MVS SuperGun

[Tempest]

After selling my modest Neo Geo AES set up for a considerable profit (I think I spent $300 or so on it and sold it for $500) I find that I'm still itching for some Neo Geo action.

At first I thought I might be able to go the cheapo Neo Geo CD route, but the hideiously long load times and lack of many of my favorite games killed that idea. Then I thought I could substitute my Saturn for a Neo Geo, but once again many of my favs never made it to saturn and they aren't quite the same. Now I'm thinking Supergun.

First of all I know only a little about how they work, but as far as I can tell they're just a box that connects a JAMMA board to your TV. All I want to do is use it for Neo Geo MVS games so I really do care about how many other games it's compatible with (I don't want to keep loose boards around). So AFAIK I need a Supergun unit of some type, an MVS board (I was thinking a one slot since it's small and I don't mind changing cartridges) and some joysticks. Now here are my questions:

1. Who makes the best Supergun units? I don't really want to build my own since I don't have the time or skills, but I wouldn't dismiss someone building one for me. I guess I'm looking for reliability and quality controls. I've heard of units overheating and crappy controls being problems in the past. Further down on the list is the look of the unit, but that is important.

2. Do they make nice looking MVS specific ones? Maybe something like an all in one box with a cartridge slot out the top?

3. Other than the Irritating Maze which needed a special trackball controller, are there any MVS carts that wont work on a Supergun unit?

4. Do the support S-Video? I've heard some do and some don't.

5. Are there any AES games that were never released in MVS format? Can they be converted (I know you can do it the other way)? IronClad and Crossed Swords II are the only ones I can think of.


Tempest

[Captain Wrong]

1. Who makes the best Supergun units? I don't really want to build my own since I don't have the time or skills, but I wouldn't dismiss someone building one for me. I guess I'm looking for reliability and quality controls. I've heard of units overheating and crappy controls being problems in the past. Further down on the list is the look of the unit, but that is important.

http://www.digitpress.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11347

Trust me, if you're not color blind, building a Supergun is simple as can be. The MAS and GW Trading units I've heard bad things about, but I haven't had a single problem with mine and it's getting heavy use with a 2 slot MVS board. And the total cost for my gun and the controllers was half what the MAS and GW units cost.

If you get a 2-6 slot MVS board, it's got controller ports built in and you can use standard Neo sticks.


2. Do they make nice looking MVS specific ones? Maybe something like an all in one box with a cartridge slot out the top?

There's also a guy on the Neo-Geo board who makes "consolized" MVS boards. Basically what he does is take a MVS and soilder directly to the JAMMA connection.

The only thing special you need with a gun and a MVS board is that it has the right JAMMA connections made for the Neo. MVS uses the 4 button that isn't standard on JAMMA and the sound out is a little different than standard JAMMA. Nothing major, again, get a 2-6 slot board and you have built in controller ports and headphone jacks you can use for the sound.

So if you use a 2-6 slot board, you shouldn't have any problems at all (as long as your system puts out enough juice to handle the board. A 6 slot sucks more power than a standard JAMMA pcb.)


3. Other than the Irritating Maze which needed a special trackball controller, are there any MVS carts that wont work on a Supergun unit?

Nope.


4. Do they support S-Video? I've heard some do and some don't.

That depends entirely on how your supergun is built. Mine has composite and S-video outs, but I don't think the MAS and GW units do. The JAMMA board gives an analog RGB out, so it entriely depends on what the maker of your gun does with that signal.


5. Are there any AES games that were never released in MVS format? Can they be converted (I know you can do it the other way)? IronClad and Crossed Swords II are the only ones I can think of.

Crossed Swords II and IronClad were only released on CD. There were a couple of games that only came out on CD, but those aren't on cart at all. Every game that appeared on home cart, appears on MVS, and several that never made it home are on MVS too.

As for converting a CD game to cart, I've never heard of it. Converting a homecart to MVS wouldn't be necessary, because the MVS versions of rare titles are much more easier to find.

[Tempest]

There's also a guy on the Neo-Geo board who makes "consolized" MVS boards. Basically what he does is take a MVS and soilder directly to the JAMMA connection.

Which Neo Geo board? Got a name?



Trust me, if you're not color blind, building a Supergun is simple as can be. The MAS and GW Trading units I've heard bad things about, but I haven't had a single problem with mine and it's getting heavy use with a 2 slot MVS board. And the total cost for my gun and the controllers was half what the MAS and GW units cost.

I know building a supergun isn't hard, but I don't really have the time to do it. I've heard mixed reviews about almost all the companies that make superguns.



If you get a 2-6 slot MVS board, it's got controller ports built in and you can use standard Neo sticks.

It's my understanding that there are some 1 slot boards that also have the joyports. How much does one of these cost?


Tempest

[digitalpress]

I know building a supergun isn't hard, but I don't really have the time to do it. I've heard mixed reviews about almost all the companies that make superguns.

How much time do you think it takes, Matt? I'm guessing less time than to play through a few levels of Crossed Swords II. Worth the time and cost savings to do it yourself... but I'm sure Cap and Achika will tell you that.

[Captain Wrong]

Let's see...the guy at neo-geo.com you might want to look for is supergoose79. Guess I should have told you that, huh? Here's some pics of his work: http://www.sgrepository.com/modules.php?set_albumName=supergoose79&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php

And as for time involved, I'm telling you, if you're not building a controller like I did, you can probably assemble a Supergun in a couple of hours. I'm dead serious. My total time for the gun and controller was somewhere in the area of 8 hours, but easily 6 hours were spent on the controller. And I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer, so if I could put this thing together that fast, I know you could.

The only reason I keep pushing this is you seem like the kind of person who could easily do this yourself and trust me, not to speak ill of anyone who sells these things, but you gonna kick your self if you buy one when you see how little is actually in it. It's a good weekend project and with the money you save, you can buy a MVS and some games. :)

[Phantom]

Now I'm thinking Supergun.Have you considered getting a cabinet for the true arcade experience? :) No room for it maybe?

[Tempest]

Have you considered getting a cabinet for the true arcade experience? No room for it maybe?


No room.


The only reason I keep pushing this is you seem like the kind of person who could easily do this yourself and trust me, not to speak ill of anyone who sells these things, but you gonna kick your self if you buy one when you see how little is actually in it. It's a good weekend project and with the money you save, you can buy a MVS and some games.

Yeah I can I suppose. The hard part is wiring that RGB converter. I guess I should start rounding up parts.

Tempest

[Captain Wrong]

RGB encoder? Got you covered.

Option One, the Jrok: http://www.jrok.com/hardware/RGB.html It's not cheap at $80, but the quality from everything I've heard surpasses the encoders used in the MAS and GW Units. Plus rest of the parts are only going to be $40 aprox., so you're still saving money.

Option Two, there is a cable for the japanese PS2 that converts the RGB signal to composite/S-video. It was made for the early run models that output the DVD signal in RGB as a way to get around Macrovision. I used to have a bookmark to a company that was selling them for around $17. All you'd need to do is mod it (basically cut off the plug and wire it into your supergun) and you're golden. This is what I have. I got mine from a guy who did the mod for me. It cost about $50 total, and I'm pretty sure I could have done it myself. Works fine. Problem is finding this cable, as Sony wasn't too happy about it and since it only works on the first run JPN PS2, there isn't much of a market for it anymore. Lik Sang used to have them.

I can give you the guy's email address if you wish. He told me he had a few of these things left when I got mine. The quality is pretty good. I don't have a Jrok to compair with, but I've got no complaints.

Option Three, the famous X-RGB box. Like this: http://www.ps2modchip.com/flash/xrgb.htm You'd have to use a PC monitor and it's a bit pricey, but the up side is you can use all your consoles with it as well. If you ever thought about getting one, now's a great time. :)

And if you have any more questions, or are looking for ideas or resources, let me know. I'd be glad to help you out all I can.

[Tempest]

Hmm... That Jrok thing looks intersting. How hard is it to wire up to the rest of the system? Do any sites show how to hook up the Jrok to the JAMMA harness? I have no experience with this stuff.

Tempest

[Tempest]

Ok they tell you how to wire it up. I just found the page.

Tempest

[Tempest]

I read somewhere tht you can use a smaller power supply than the AT. Does anyone know about this? Should I just use a standard AT PS anyway?

Tempest

[Captain Wrong]

That's what I'm using and it works fine. I'm sure it's a bit overkill, but they're so cheap it doesn't matter.

[Tempest]

Ok here's another question I just thought of: Since the MVS pinout is slightly different from JAMMA (an extra button and such), how do you wire it correctly? Also what's the best type of board to use? I need one with joystick ports and a memory card slot.

Tempest

[Captain Wrong]

You should check this site out, it's truly must see if you're getting into MVS:

http://www.hardmvs.com

Here's a list of the difference between the MVs boards:

http://www.hardmvs.com/html/PCBcompare.htm

And here's a compairson of the standard JAMMA pinout vs. the MVS:

http://www.hardmvs.com/manuals/Jamma2NeoGeo4SlotPinout.pdf

Mind you, the one slot boards all use standard JAMMA, it's the multi slot boards that use the different pinout. But seeing as how you're looking for the extra features, you should go with a 2 or 4 slot board. You should be able to find either of those for under $150.

[Tempest]

Mind you, the one slot boards all use standard JAMMA,

How can that be? I thought the extra button needed more wires. How do you wire this thing up anyway?

It occurs to me, what do you do about the coins? Do you just set games to free play?

What's the going price for a 2 slot board?


Ok looking at the chart I have a few questions:

1. On Board Memory Slot: Is this the memory cart slot? No 1 Slot boards have them then right?

2. MV-IC Memory Board Support: What the heck is this?

3. Stereo Through PCB Connector: How do you use this to get stereo? I'm not quite sure what they mean by PCB Connector.


Tempest

[Captain Wrong]

How can that be? I thought the extra button needed more wires. How do you wire this thing up anyway?

Here's the JAMMA pin out:



PARTS SIDE SOLDER SIDE
---------------|---------------
GRD 1|A GRD
GRD 2|B GRD
+5V 3|C +5V
+5V 4|D +5V
-5V 5|E -5V
+12V 6|F +12V
KEY 7|H KEY
COUNTER 1 8|J COUNTER 2
C LOCKOUT 1 9|K C LOCKOUT 2
SPEAKER + 10|L SPEAKER -
N/C 11|M N/C
RED 12|N GREEN
BLUE 13|P SYNC
GRD 14|R SERVICE SW
TEST SW 15|S SLAM SW
COIN 1 16|T COIN 2
1P START 17|U 2P START
1P UP 18|V 2P UP
1P DOWN 19|W 2P DOWN
1P LEFT 20|X 2P LEFT
1P RIGHT 21|Y 2P RIGHT
1P FIRE 1 22|Z 2P FIRE 1
1P FIRE 2 23|z 2P FIRE 2
1P FIRE 3 24|b 2P FIRE 3
(Fire 4) N/C 25|c N/C (Fire 4)
N/C 26|d N/C
GRD 27|e GRD
GRD 28|f GRD


Kinda messy, but you get the idea, right?

OK, the easiest way to explain it is like this, the JAMMA standard includes support for 3 buttons. If you look at a diagram of the JAMMA pinout, you will notice two unused pins directly following the 3 fire button pins. The Neo board uses the next pin for it's fourth button, and that's labeled Fire 4 in this pic. When they set up the JAMMA standard, they left a few pins unused to give companies the freedom to add something if they wanted, and that's what SNK did.

All you'd need to do to wire it up is wire those three controller pins and the next unused one and there are your 4 buttons for the Neo.


It occurs to me, what do you do about the coins? Do you just set games to free play?

On my controller, I have a button for credit and a button for player start for each side. All you have to do is wire up Coin 1 like a button. It's simple as that.

All you have to do to wire up the controllers is wire all the pins for the 4 buttons, start, coin, and directions to the positive terminals on your controls. Then just run a common ground from one of the ground pins to all the negatives. You can daisy chain them, that's what I did.

Now, if you're planning on using the controller ports, you'll have to connect a switch for the coin pins or use freeplay. It's not a big deal, you can just go to Radio Shack, buy a cheap push button and wire that up.


What's the going price for a 2 slot board?

There's one on eBay with a BIN of $130. That's a fair price.


Ok looking at the chart I have a few questions:

1. On Board Memory Slot: Is this the memory cart slot? No 1 Slot boards have them then right?

Correct.


2. MV-IC Memory Board Support: What the heck is this?

That's an external card reader. You might need it in a cab depending on where the board was mounted. You won't need it for a Supergun though.


3. Stereo Through PCB Connector: How do you use this to get stereo? I'm not quite sure what they mean by PCB Connector.

They're talking about the JAMMA connector here. This is the main difference between Neo Geo pinout and standard JAMMA. Standard JAMMA uses pins 10 and L for mono audio out (one is +, the other is -). Neo Geo uses one of those for right + and the other for left +. All you have to do is run the correct positive to each speaker and run a ground to the negative terminal. The common ground works fine, audio doesn't need a special ground.

You can also run a Y-adaptor from the headphone jack to your stereo/TV or whatever if that's easier.

Whew! Hopefully that makes sence. It's really not as complicated as it seems, and it really makes sence when you're actually looking at the parts.

[Captain Wrong]

One other thing, you'll probably want to wire up a button for the test mode. That allows you to change the dip switch settings. Again, it's a simple matter of connecting the correct pin and a ground to a switch. Off the top of my head, I can't remember what the pin number is for the MVS test mode, but it's different than the standard JAMMA one.

You can also get fancy like I did and put a button to switch carts since you're getting a multi slot board. Again, you can find the pinout on HardMVS in the download section.

Stuff like this is why I built rather than bought. No pre made gun has this kind of flexibility!

[Tempest]

Ok more questions:

Is the 4X BIOS worth getting? What's the point of switching between AES and MVS mode? I can sorta see switching between Japanese and US for the blood, but other than that...

Is there a way to get stereo through your TV by using the JAMMA harness or do you have to use the headphone jack? I suppose the headphone jack would be easier anyway.

Is there a webpage that deals specifically with MVS supergun setups? All the pages I've seen so far are for generic superguns. I'm looking for case design ideas so I can have a reset button, US/Japanese switch, Coin button, game select switch, etc.


So far I have:

2 Slot MVS board (thanks to that ebay auction)
Jrok RGB to NTSC converter board
JAMMA wiring harness
AT power supply
Case (I'm making a nice one)

What other major parts am I missing? I don't want speakers in my main unit since I'm going to use the TV for that so I don't need those. Other than extra wires and switches am I set?

Tempest

[Captain Wrong]

Ok more questions:

Is the 4X BIOS worth getting? What's the point of switching between AES and MVS mode? I can sorta see switching between Japanese and US for the blood, but other than that...

This is something I'm considering myself. My board is a Europe board, so I get the blood and bounce and it's in English! Some of the newer games have extra options on home cart, such as training mode. I've been trying to track down more info on this myself, but basically what I've heard is it's mostly fighting games post 1997.


Is there a way to get stereo through your TV by using the JAMMA harness or do you have to use the headphone jack? I suppose the headphone jack would be easier anyway.

Yeah, if you wire the JAMMA pins I mentioned in the last post to RCA plugs you can do it. Keep in mine the sound coming off the JAMMA harness is amplified, not line level, so you'll need to turn the volume on the board way down. I just use a cheap pair of speakers for standard JAMMA or the headphone jack for Neo. I think that's the easiest way to go.


Is there a webpage that deals specifically with MVS supergun setups? All the pages I've seen so far are for generic superguns. I'm looking for case design ideas so I can have a reset button, US/Japanese switch, Coin button, game select switch, etc.

Check this guy's page out: http://web.njit.edu/~jal0737/ He's using a 4 slot, but it's the same physical size as a 2 slot board. He's got a pretty nice case for it all, and I used his info on building controllers to build mine.

Or, you can check mine out: http://www.sgrepository.com/modules.php?set_albumName=captainwrong&op=modload&name=gallery&file=index&include=view_album.php I made it universal, but the buttons on the front also correspond to MVS functions. It's very easy to do.


So far I have:

2 Slot MVS board (thanks to that ebay auction)
Jrok RGB to NTSC converter board
JAMMA wiring harness
AT power supply
Case (I'm making a nice one)

What other major parts am I missing? I don't want speakers in my main unit since I'm going to use the TV for that so I don't need those. Other than extra wires and switches am I set?

You're pretty much set, other than the wires and switches. As a suggestion, I'd get a couple of fuse holders and fuses to add to the power side. I put a 10A fuse on the +5V line and a 2A fuse on the +12V line just to be safe. Neither of those lines should put out more volts than that.

Also, one other thing I though of, you don't need to hook up the -5V line to use a MVS board. It won't hurt anything if you do, but the MVS board doesn't need it.

[Tempest]

One other thing I thought of: If I use the joystick ports on the board do I have to worry about wiring any of the control wires to the JAMMA harness? I wouldn't think so. If so then all I have to do is wire the harness to the coin slot, power, and video (assuming stereo through the headphone jack).

Tempest

[Phantom]

They're talking about the JAMMA connector here. This is the main difference between Neo Geo pinout and standard JAMMA. Standard JAMMA uses pins 10 and L for mono audio out (one is +, the other is -). Neo Geo uses one of those for right + and the other for left +. All you have to do is run the correct positive to each speaker and run a ground to the negative terminal. The common ground works fine, audio doesn't need a special ground.Yeah. I installed a switch in my MVS cabinet to switch between MVS (stereo) and JAMMA (mono using both speakers).

[Captain Wrong]

One other thing I thought of: If I use the joystick ports on the board do I have to worry about wiring any of the control wires to the JAMMA harness? I wouldn't think so. If so then all I have to do is wire the harness to the coin slot, power, and video (assuming stereo through the headphone jack).

Tempest

That should be right. I'm not 100% sure if you can start the game from the controller port or if you're going to need to wire up a button for that too. Otherwise, you won't need to wire up anything else.

[Tempest]

Parts are starting to arrive, I'm kinda excited. Now I need to figure out what last few parts I need. I don't know if the Neo Geo controller start button will work on the MVS board even though it has the joystick ports. I'll probably need a button for selecting between the two carts and one for the test mode. A reset button would be nice, but isn't critical. Do I just use standard arcade buttons for these? Come to think of it I also need a power button...

Tempest

[Tempest]

Ok here's another question. How do you access the setup menu on MVS carts (number of lives, difficulty, continues, etc.)? I assume it's just a dip switch so you just wire a switch to it right? Will these options let you set the language or do you need to buy a 4X or Debug Bios for that? Speaking of which, are the 4X and Debug Bios the same thing?

Tempest

[Captain Wrong]

OK, as for buttons, buttons are buttons. You can use arcade style buttons for "functions" if you wish, you you can get some cheap buttons at Radio Shack like I did. All you need to do is complete a circuit, so there's nothing special there.

The setup menu on the MVS is accessed through the test switch. You need to wire up a button to JAMMA pin M. When you push that, you get into the setup menu. All the "dipswitch" settings for MVS games are set through the operating system rather than physical dips.

The 4X and the debug are 2 different things, AFAIK. The 4X lets you change the region, the debug is more like a gameshark type thing. There's also the Universe BIOS which is basically both together. THe page for that is here: http://bios.cps2shock.com/

[Tempest]

Hey that Bios is pretty spiffy, I'm goingto have to get me one of those. It seems to solve all my problems. Hell I don't need to have any buttons on my system at all (other than power). Well maybe a reset or pause button would still be nice.

Tempest

[Tempest]

Ok I've got all the parts here (well the board should be here tomorrow). Now assuming I use that cool ass BIOS to handle all the extra functions like Coins, Start, Reset, etc I think all I need to do is wire the RCB converter and power supply to the JAMMA harness right? The joystick will be handled by the board and the sound will come from the headphone jack (I assume they make a headphone to Stereo RCA jack adapter right?).

I'm still not 100% sure on how to wire that power supply up though. Is there a good place to look? I don't want to fry this thing.

Tempest