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The 1 2 P
11-18-2008, 04:40 PM
Thats just a leet way of saying they are finally going to attempt to appease the hardcore gamers next year: http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com/2008/11/17/nintendos-plans-for-attracting-halo-gamers/

A whole article and not one mention of any new games that will appease us next year? Doesn't look good to me. But then again, they did wait until the tail end of this year to announce Punch Out and Sin and Punishment 2.

GrandAmChandler
11-18-2008, 05:10 PM
Seriously, why isn't Cammie fired yet? Someone punch her in the face.

maxlords
11-18-2008, 05:20 PM
and stuff like No More Heroes and Mad World isn't good enough? Yeesh.

The 1 2 P
11-18-2008, 05:26 PM
Seriously, why isn't Cammie fired yet? Someone punch her in the face.

http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr306/THE-1-2-P/FacePalm_picard.jpg

djbeatmongrel
11-18-2008, 05:33 PM
Thinking about it. Cammie is the Sarah Pailin of Nintendo, she's bangable but she's also an idiot that's bringing everyone close to her down.

chicnstu
11-18-2008, 05:35 PM
Thats just a leet way of saying they are finally going to attempt to appease the hardcore gamers next year: http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com/2008/11/17/nintendos-plans-for-attracting-halo-gamers/

A whole article and not one mention of any new games that will appease us next year? Doesn't look good to me. But then again, they did wait until the tail end of this year to announce Punch Out and Sin and Punishment 2.

So the VP of sales is supposed to make new game announcements to an interviewer for MTV?

I'm confused about what type of game people mean when they ask for a "hardcore" game. Is it only a game where you shoot everything you see? The last few years I've thought that a main Mario game, Zelda, Animal Crossing, RPGs, and FPS were "hardcore" games because they are addicting and popular among people online. But it seems that only FPS and RPGs (?) are considered "hardcore".

And what is a "casual" game? Is the definition a simple game that is designed to be played for short or long amounts of time? So that with a casual game, people that don't have the time (working adults, elderly), or the attention span (girls that haven't been into games, elderly), to play games for 5 hours a day. If so, that definition sounds exactly like a game from the PS2 all of the way back to Atari. And remember, this is a classic gaming site (that just happens to have a modern gaming board).

Bojay1997
11-18-2008, 05:37 PM
and stuff like No More Heroes and Mad World isn't good enough? Yeesh.

Those are beautiful, artistic games which are not published by Nintendo nor are they aimed at the Halo fan. Citing the Conduit which Nintendo passed on is ridiculous. While they might be very financially successful as a company, I am constantly disappointed with what Nintendo chooses to release for the more mature gamers out there. Oh well, I guess that's why most of us have multiple consoles nowadays.

chicnstu
11-18-2008, 05:42 PM
I am constantly disappointed with what Nintendo chooses to release for the more mature gamers out there.

Disney is also a family company, so tell them to make horror movies or pornography.

BHvrd
11-18-2008, 05:44 PM
How about not focusing on hardcore so much as games that don't suck.

I already would have bought a Wii, but the Pokemon game was weak as shit, Zelda was nothing but a port of a Gamecube game and Animal Crossing looks to offer nothing new except (voice chat, OoOoOoo), multiplayer nes games would have been.....keen as fuck.

Seriously I consider myself a Nintendo fan. I've owned all their consoles except this one as it just seems they are half-assing everything....except Mario Galaxies and Smash Bros., those rock.

Three of my biggest gripes with the Wii is limited hard drive space, the fact that they aren't touting DS---Wii connectivity nearly like the Gamecube/Gameboy connectivity was touted. I loved connecting and using my Gameboy with my Cube!!! Lastly, friend codes............nope sorry, friend codes just don't cut it.

Great solid Big N games and connectivity would get me to buy one. I just don't like the general direction they have taken, they have strayed too far from what I wanted and it seems a bit early to be saying they are going after the "hardcore" gamers, they usually pull that at the end of the consoles life cycle, at least that's what the past has proved.

Fuyukaze
11-18-2008, 05:46 PM
and stuff like No More Heroes and Mad World isn't good enough? Yeesh.
Neither are Baroque, Resident Evil, Trauma Center, Zelda, Metroid Prime, House of the Dead, Tales of Symphonia, Fire Emblem, or the slew of other games aimed at "hardcore" gamers. Us older gamers who've come to love great games have become a thing of the past. We want great gameplay, not just pretty visuals. Hardcore gamers these days are all about the graphics, and a huge throbing e-penis. Nothing about how fun a game is anymore.

Rob2600
11-18-2008, 05:49 PM
A whole article and not one mention of any new games that will appease us next year? Doesn't look good to me. But then again, they did wait until the tail end of this year to announce Punch Out and Sin and Punishment 2.

So far, over a dozen upcoming "hard-core" games have been announced for the Wii:

Cave Story
The Conduit
Cursed Mountain
Dead Rising: Chop 'Til You Drop
Deadly Creatures
Fatal Frame: Mask of the Lunar Eclipse
Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles: Crystal Bearers
The House of the Dead: Overkill
MadWorld
No More Heroes: Desperate Struggle
Punch-Out!!
Sin and Punishment 2
Tenchu 4: Art of the Ninja


Those are in addition to the "hard-core" games that are already out:

Battalion Wars 2
Bully: Scholarship Edition
Call of Duty: World at War
Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn
The House of the Dead 2 & 3 Return
The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess
Medal of Honor Heroes 2
Metroid Prime 3: Corruption
No More Heroes
Okami
Resident Evil 4
Resident Evil: The Umbrella Chronicles
Super Mario Galaxy
Super Smash Bros. Brawl
Tales of Symphonia: Dawn of the New World


I know, I know...the Wii doesn't have any "hard-core" games.

Graham Mitchell
11-18-2008, 05:53 PM
You know, the first of the three current-gen machines that I bought was a Wii, so it impressed me at the time. But controls be damned, the PS3 and 360 are just capable of so much more both in the area of graphic detail and processing power, but of unique features brought about by stable and well-supported online connectivity.

No More Heroes is pretty cool compared to the majority of the Wii library, but by the time it was released I had already begun playing through Bioshock and Mass Effect in 1080p, and all I could think of was how much better NMH could have been on more advanced platform. The fucking Wii controls are an afterthought in that game (save for the cell-phone sequences, which are quite cool) and I think actually even serve to slow down the action. At this point, for me, it's all just going to be too little too late. I will of course investigate Sin & Punishment and Punch-Out, as well as any further Zelda or Metroid installments but only because I have sentimental ties to those franchises and I'm curious to see what they do with them. But I strongly suspect that the next genre-defying, mindblowing "big thing" probably won't be on the Wii because developers just have to pull punches due to hardware limitations. And if it is on the Wii, it'll probably be cross-platform with the Wii version being the weakest of the bunch.

Rob2600
11-18-2008, 06:01 PM
You know, the first of the three current-gen machines that I bought was a Wii, so it impressed me at the time. But controls be damned, the PS3 and 360 are just capable of so much more both in the area of graphic detail and processing power, but of unique features brought about by stable and well-supported online connectivity.

No More Heroes is pretty cool compared to the majority of the Wii library, but by the time it was released I had already begun playing through Bioshock and Mass Effect in 1080p, and all I could think of was how much better NMH could have been on more advanced platform.

Which game is better, Super Mario Galaxy or Banjo-Kazooie: Nuts & Bolts?

Processing power isn't the only factor in producing a great game.

heybtbm
11-18-2008, 06:50 PM
So no new Mario or Zelda games for the Wii next year? Is that really a surprise to anyone? Nintendo is obviously making tons of money. They can take as much time as they want.

I think most people who have a clue would say Nintendo is preparing those A-list sequels for the "Wii HD" or whatever it ends up being called. Does anyone doubt this? How much of an improvement over Mario Galaxy, Smash Brothers and Twilight Princess is the Wii capable of? Those franchises are not coming back to the original Wii.

The 1 2 P
11-18-2008, 06:57 PM
Hardcore gamers these days are all about the graphics, and a huge throbing e-penis. Nothing about how fun a game is anymore.

As a hardcore gamer I don't throw money at games just because they have the best graphics, nor do I want anything to do with an e-penis(whatever that is). For me, fun is number one(quote me on that). While graphics and story are part of the complete package, a game has to be fun to keep me coming back for more.


So far, a dozen "hard-core" games have been announced:

Cave Story
The Conduit
Cursed Mountain
Dead Rising: Chop 'Til You Drop
Deadly Creatures
Fatal Frame: Mask of the Lunar Eclipse
Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles: Crystal Bearers
The House of the Dead: Overkill
MadWorld
No More Heroes: Desperate Struggle
Punch-Out!!
Sin and Punishment 2


So tell me, which of those games did we NOT know about already? My point was that this was a new article centered around how Nintendo was going to release a bunch of games next year to appeal to the hardcore gamer and yet there were no new announcements of said games. Maybe they are waiting for a show to announce more but it would have been nice if in this article they illustrated their point more precisely by a new game announcement or two.

tomaitheous
11-18-2008, 08:44 PM
This obviously isn't going to attract any new customers to the Wii of that 'hardcore' crowd. When it comes to the Wii, you need to adjust for translation: hardcore gamer = normal gamer, casual gamer = non gamer. I don't think it's Nintendo fault directly, it's that 3rd party companies don't want to risk releasing such games for majority 'non-gamer' audience of the system. Well - maybe it is Nintendo's fault for advertising the system as such.

Iron Draggon
11-18-2008, 08:47 PM
well for my money, Speed Racer did the trick, I just don't have the money for a Wii yet, and no telling if anyone will buy me one for Christmas or not... but if they want to keep me interested, they need some sort of roller coaster simulator with lots of inversions like Speed Racer, but on rails instead of roads... so basically Speed Racer on rails... I want more high speed games... now there's an idea... High Speed Pinball meets Need for Speed... HMMM...

YEP... I'd buy that too...

but games are more easy for me to afford than consoles...

so I sure hope I get a Wii for Christmas... we'll see if Santa brings me one...

maxlords
11-18-2008, 10:48 PM
Yeah, I think the problem here is definitely the definition of a 'hardcore' gamer. I suspect that Nintendo doesn't realize what hardcore gamers are anymore. Sega used to make a lot of games for the real hardcore...stuff that didn't sell for peanuts but met with phenomenal critical acclaim. That's my idea of hardcore....a QUALITY game with quality gameplay like Fuyukaze said.

I don't care about graphics. They're a nice bonus. I care about gameplay and FUN. If a game isn't fun...who cares how it looks (*cough* Halo 3 *cough*). And regardless of reviews....who cares what people think of the game as long as you have fun playing it? That being said...Nintendo doesn't make hardcore games...except for maybe the Marios and Zeldas...which regardless of popularity...are designed first and foremost for gamers. Galaxy was hardcore for sure. Wind Waker too...and Phantom Hourglass.

Anyway...most of the releases I buy these days are either stuff like Bioshock (from the former Lookingglass Studios which has ALWAYS made hardcore stuff) or Fallout 3, or obscure Atlus releases, or things like Okami. In other words...artistic, well controlled fun games. Dont' even bother to argue against any of those titles...those are just MY preferences. Hardcore is the small stuff that no one plays that's amazing...but it's also the big releases...the GOOD ones that suck ya in and don't let go. Stuff like Condemned 2, or Time Hollow, or Professor Layton and the Curious Village, or Patapon. That's my hardcore.

Graham Mitchell
11-18-2008, 11:21 PM
Which game is better, Super Mario Galaxy or Banjo-Kazooie: Nuts & Bolts?

Processing power isn't the only factor in producing a great game.

Right, which is why I said I'd check out Punch-Out and Sin and Punishment. I'm also curious about the new Alien Crush, but I have a feeling I'm gonna regret spending the money.

Bear in mind that a huge amount of the "hardcore" games people are citing are ports of PS2 game. I can't laud the Wii for having Okami. But like I said before, nobody's really treading successfully into bold new territory on the Wii. Not that it doesn't have some great games, mind you. I just don't feel like it's cutting-edge. Even Super Mario Galaxy or my personally beloved Twilight Princess are reiterations of a theme designed in 1996 and 1998, respectively.

maxlords
11-19-2008, 12:05 AM
But does it MATTER if it's cutting edge? As long as the game is fun...does it have to be new? Or can it just be extremely well done? Bioshock is a good example of this. I know FPSs aren't exactly hardcore, but just as an example.

Aside from the setting....Bioshock is essentially a 100% rehash of System Shock 1 and 2 for the PC. Essentially every concept in the game was carried over from those two titles. And I mean EVERYTHING. Does that make Bioshock innovative or curring edge? I'd say no. Yet the reviews all lauded it as such. And it's a GREAT game. But it's nothing new or curring edge at all.

Another game (also an FPS) that's getting mixed or lower reviews is Mirror's Edge. Just came out...innovative new use of FPS technology to simulate parkour, right? Yet everyone is saying it's meh. And it IS cutting edge. It's new...it's different, and it's unique. It's "cutting edge". Yet it's getting passe reviews.

I'd say that the fun factor, as hokey as that sounds, is much more important than the innovation in a title.

j_factor
11-19-2008, 12:48 AM
I remember when Ikaruga came out, people said that was hardcore. I don't remember anyone calling the first Halo hardcore at the time. When did "hardcore" come to mean mainstream FPS games?


So tell me, which of those games did we NOT know about already? My point was that this was a new article centered around how Nintendo was going to release a bunch of games next year to appeal to the hardcore gamer and yet there were no new announcements of said games. Maybe they are waiting for a show to announce more but it would have been nice if in this article they illustrated their point more precisely by a new game announcement or two.

This isn't a "new article", it's a brief interview with a marketing person by MTV. Not exactly a prime platform for new announcements.

Press_Start
11-19-2008, 12:49 AM
You know what's funny? What most gamers fail to realize Nintendo is the most hardcore company out there? Think about it. The big N started out as a game company producing playing cards and more for over a century. Sony started as an electronics company creating products for the casual consumer. Microsoft was a software giant teaching the "technologically-challenged" how to use operate a computer before XBox.

Let me ask you. Who's more hardcore?

-An electronics business providing appliances for non-gamers.
-A software tycoon catering to the casual necessities of it consumers.
-A company, whose purpose for existing is making games and fun, 24/7, 7 days a week, 356 days a year, for over 100 years.

Now think hard. ;)


This obviously isn't going to attract any new customers to the Wii of that 'hardcore' crowd. When it comes to the Wii, you need to adjust for translation: hardcore gamer = normal gamer, casual gamer = non gamer. I don't think it's Nintendo fault directly, it's that 3rd party companies don't want to risk releasing such games for majority 'non-gamer' audience of the system. Well - maybe it is Nintendo's fault for advertising the system as such.

Growth is always the key factor to the success of any business. In video games, its always been the non-gamers. For nintendo, it was kids. For sony, it was teenagers. etc. Anyway you look at it, it was persuading to non-gamers that got these companies to where they are today. Too many game companies have forgotten that fact and believe their "hardcore" audience always be their golden goose. It may work for lesser-known companies, like Atlus, but for the bigger ones, like Konami and Capcom, they're shooting themselves in the foot and don't know it yet.

Half Japanese
11-19-2008, 12:54 AM
Thinking about it. Cammie is the Sarah Pailin of Nintendo, she's bangable but she's also an idiot that's bringing everyone close to her down.

http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/cammiedunaway.jpg

She looks like an elementary school teacher. Best case scenario, you're at the DMV and the only other women there have mouth sores, a moustache, a meth habit, or a gunt (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=gunt) the size of a sleeping toddler, and you decide that if for some reason the folks inside the DMV were the only people left in the world, she's the one you'd probably fuck to kickstart civilization again. Other than that, she would never cross my mind as "bangable".

Bojay1997
11-19-2008, 01:09 AM
Disney is also a family company, so tell them to make horror movies or pornography.

You're kidding, right? Disney has multiple divisions which produce adult fare because they understand that going after a single audience is not the way to maximize profit. They don't get involved in porn, but their Miramax Division, ABC Television and Hyperion Press push boundaries with many of their releases. There's nothing to stop Nintendo from doing the same thing.

While I applaud Nintendo for their success with the Wii, I am reminded of the failure of the Gamecube which relied on essentially the same 1st party game content business model and ultimately disappointed many of us who grew up on Nintendo and loved it for opening the door to so many innovative franchises. Nowadays, all they seem to be able to do is repackage stuff (Wii versions of Gamecube games are coming soon with motion control as the only addition.) and crank out sequels. There's a reason the Wii has such a low software attach rate compared to the 360.

tomaitheous
11-19-2008, 02:38 AM
Growth is always the key factor to the success of any business. In video games, its always been the non-gamers. For nintendo, it was kids. For sony, it was teenagers. etc. Anyway you look at it, it was persuading to non-gamers that got these companies to where they are today.

Way to state the obvious, there. Next you going to say something crazy like game companies are only really in it for the profit ;)



Too many game companies have forgotten that fact and believe their "hardcore" audience always be their golden goose. It may work for lesser-known companies, like Atlus, but for the bigger ones, like Konami and Capcom, they're shooting themselves in the foot and don't know it yet.

I dunno. Game companies do what they do to survive. If they can't evolve with the times, then they get left behind. This isn't the first gaming generation and it's not the last. But I don't think the lack of investment into wonder magic waving wand software is going to be their downfall. I just don't. Paint me skeptical.

Cryomancer
11-19-2008, 03:28 AM
You know what's funny? What most gamers fail to realize Nintendo is the most hardcore company out there? Think about it. The big N started out as a game company producing playing cards and more for over a century. Sony started as an electronics company creating products for the casual consumer. Microsoft was a software giant teaching the "technologically-challenged" how to use operate a computer before XBox.

Let me ask you. Who's more hardcore?

-An electronics business providing appliances for non-gamers.
-A software tycoon catering to the casual necessities of it consumers.
-A company, whose purpose for existing is making games and fun, 24/7, 7 days a week, 356 days a year, for over 100 years.

Now think hard. ;)



Sega.

koster
11-19-2008, 04:15 AM
Thats just a leet way of saying they are finally going to attempt to assimilate the hardcore gamers next year: http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com/2008/11/17/nintendos-plans-for-attracting-halo-gamers/
Fixed. :)

Nintendo - "Wii are the Borg. Resistance is futile. Hardcore gamers, you will be assimilated."

Frankie_Says_Relax
11-19-2008, 08:25 AM
As far as the Wii getting a rep of not having any "hardcore" games, it has less to do with what's already out / what's been announced and more to do with the fact that this holiday season there is only ONE 1st party title launching during the holiday window for the system.

Animal Crossing.

Have you seen the commercial with the two 40 something women playing it talking about shopping? If you haven't, here they are, but seriously, prepare to be anywhere from embarrassed to ashamed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6t4pPHmSU0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Pia7KkuFAE

Even if Animal Crossing was the most hardcore game in the universe (and in the Nintendo lexicon ... on the Gamecube and DS in some ways it WAS a hardcore core Nintendo title) those ads are enough to completely ruin it's image for LIFE.

Additionally the absolutely non-stop ratio of awful shovelware to AAA titles shows no signs of slowing down. It's got to be somewhere in the market of 20 to 1 these days.

I have no qualms with Nintendo or the Wii ... but it's things like that that can cause a shift in public opinion and for Nintendo to have to publicly declare that they'll "appease" the portion of the market that they're "alienating" with behavior like that.

Press_Start
11-19-2008, 08:48 AM
Sega.

Sega?! They're no longer hardcore since they punked out of the console war with their little yellow tail between their legs.

heybtbm
11-19-2008, 09:35 AM
We should have a dedicated forum for just this topic. It seems to come up in one form or another every month or so.

Graham Mitchell
11-19-2008, 10:25 AM
But does it MATTER if it's cutting edge? As long as the game is fun...does it have to be new? Or can it just be extremely well done? Bioshock is a good example of this. I know FPSs aren't exactly hardcore, but just as an example.

Aside from the setting....Bioshock is essentially a 100% rehash of System Shock 1 and 2 for the PC. Essentially every concept in the game was carried over from those two titles. And I mean EVERYTHING. Does that make Bioshock innovative or curring edge? I'd say no. Yet the reviews all lauded it as such. And it's a GREAT game. But it's nothing new or curring edge at all.

Another game (also an FPS) that's getting mixed or lower reviews is Mirror's Edge. Just came out...innovative new use of FPS technology to simulate parkour, right? Yet everyone is saying it's meh. And it IS cutting edge. It's new...it's different, and it's unique. It's "cutting edge". Yet it's getting passe reviews.

I'd say that the fun factor, as hokey as that sounds, is much more important than the innovation in a title.

Did I ever say it mattered? Bioshock is probably one of my favorite games of all time. If not possibly the best video game I've ever played. (But I find nobody outside of Digitalpress even thinks it's worth spending more than an hour with. What gives?)

The truth is that to ME, Wii games look shit because I've been spoiled by other consoles, and it's difficult for me to tread backwards to the Wii. I don't know why. I can play Gradius II Gofer No Yabao and think it looks fantastic and have a great time with it, or Final Fantasy IV. But for some reason, the Ps2-Wii-Gamecube-Xbox-era games just leave a bad taste in my mouth. Maybe it's a personal problem, maybe it's transferance because a lot of nasty things happened to me during that era; maybe it's resentment because I didn't have time to play anything when those machines were in vogue, and now I'll never catch up because the games are too complex. I don't know, but it's how I feel.

Tantrum edited.

Oobgarm
11-19-2008, 10:41 AM
Nintendo is NOT targeting the 'hardcore' crowd. The hardcore buy games that are fun, regardless of pedigree. Platform, series lineage, publisher, developer, cover art, format-those things are generally disregarded if a game is enjoyable. Unless someone's being a stubborn ass for the sake of being one. (fanboys)

The groups Nintendo is targeting with the T/M-rated game releases are either of these individually:

1. The 'I want something that's not a kiddie game' people. The folks that come into Best Buy/GameStop and want to know what kind of 'adult' games the Wii has so they'll have something to play when not entertaning guests/family with Wii Sports or some other causal game.

2. The nostalgic crowd. Those who have fond memories of past Nintendo franchises/consoles and would possibly find a new outing of a cherished character to be interesting if word gets to them about it being a good game.

3. The die-hard Nintendo fanatic. You know, THOSE people (http://cad-comic.com/comics/20080721.jpg).

Casual gamers are easily grouped in with 1 and 2.

The term 'hardcore' doesn't really apply anymore. The industry is too large and lucrative now-unique titles that would appeal to the once 'hardcore' crowd don't have much of a place in a market where maximimum profit is the deciding factor in concept approval. Hence the stream of me-too games, re-hashes, and too-similar sequels.

swlovinist
11-19-2008, 11:01 AM
I am very confident that when 2009 acutally comes around, Nintendo will have a solid lineup for us. With that being said, the "hardcore" game is is one of debate, and one that I feel all three consoles have. Sure The Wii has a alot of crap, but they also have enough games that I enjoy to play. Like others have said, that i why I play all three systems. The Wii has its place, and does things that the other two consoles stuggle at(multiple family oriented games). I look at the Wii as a different gaming console, one that I play with my family and my wife. I dont look at the Wii to have to make M rated games, FPS, and RPGs in mass quanities. If that is something people are looking for, then just go buy a 360. I think that we need to remember that Nintendo is a business. They are looking at the bigger picture. If they just made hardcore games, then they would be in third place right now. They made a smart and profitable business decision. I think that they do what Nintendo has always done, good family game fun. Expecting hardcore M rated stuff from them is like asking them for something that they have never focused on.

heybtbm
11-19-2008, 11:15 AM
Like others have said, that i why I play all three systems. The Wii has its place, and does things that the other two consoles stuggle at(multiple family oriented games). I look at the Wii as a different gaming console, one that I play with my family and my wife. I dont look at the Wii to have to make M rated games, FPS, and RPGs in mass quanities. If that is something people are looking for, then just go buy a 360.

There is so much common sense in this statement that it should be the default response whenever this topic comes up.

Frankie_Says_Relax
11-19-2008, 12:31 PM
There is so much common sense in this statement that it should be the default response whenever this topic comes up.

Unfortunately, for various reasons - console "universalists" are in the minority.

There is far more console "bigotry" (ie: I hate console X and there's nothing you can do or say to make me think otherwise) to be found in message board discussions of this type.

The DP forums probably have the lowest instances of this type of thing across the board that I've ever seen (one of the many reasons it's my favorite forum ever), but you will inevitably find people who can not accept that there's something to be enjoyed on/about all platforms whenever there's a discussion of this type to be had.

j_factor
11-19-2008, 01:50 PM
As far as the Wii getting a rep of not having any "hardcore" games, it has less to do with what's already out / what's been announced and more to do with the fact that this holiday season there is only ONE 1st party title launching during the holiday window for the system.

Wait a minute. I distinctly remember the Wii being criticized for its library being too oriented towards first-party games. Now we're criticizing Nintendo for easing up?

Personally, I don't understand this dichotomy of first- and third-party games. I don't care if a game is first-party or third-party. My brain barely registers the fact that it is one or the other. I just buy the games that interest me. I don't get why people always separate games this way in conversation.

I don't care if Nintendo passed on The Conduit. It's still coming out, and it still looks damn good. Actually, if anything, it's better when Nintendo doesn't publish it, because Nintendo games are always slower to drop in price.

Bojay1997
11-19-2008, 04:01 PM
Wait a minute. I distinctly remember the Wii being criticized for its library being too oriented towards first-party games. Now we're criticizing Nintendo for easing up?

Personally, I don't understand this dichotomy of first- and third-party games. I don't care if a game is first-party or third-party. My brain barely registers the fact that it is one or the other. I just buy the games that interest me. I don't get why people always separate games this way in conversation.

I don't care if Nintendo passed on The Conduit. It's still coming out, and it still looks damn good. Actually, if anything, it's better when Nintendo doesn't publish it, because Nintendo games are always slower to drop in price.

As one of those aforementioned console agnostic, multi-platform gamers, I agree with you to some extent. Where I disagree is that it does matter to a lot of developers how much first party product Nintendo is planning to put out. Of the "big three" console makers, Nintendo has been the hardest for most of the good mid-size developers to work with because they see themselves as getting squeezed out of the market by both all the crap Nintendo lets in at the low end and at the high end by all the 1st party titles Nintendo puts huge marketing muscle behind and which generally kill sales of other titles released during that 4-6 week period. It means that rather than taking risks and innovating, third party developers play it much safer than they ordinarily would or in some cases avoid Nintendo consoles altogether.

The thing that excites me about the Wii is that it is a less-costly system to develop for and theoretically, this should mean lots of niche titles similar to the PS2 in its later years. In reality, that's not happening much right now with the exception of a couple of upcoming Sega titles and some other third party stuff which may or may not be good. Frankly, with its huge installed base, the list a number of posts up in this thread should be multiple pages long, but instead its maybe 12 titles long with one being a sequel (Sin & Punishment 2) and one being a game that is really unlikely to be innovative at all (Punchout? Really?).
Heck, the only two games on that list that seem to have a truly unique style are both by Sega which has always been an innovator. I guess what I want is more choice and good choices and that goes for not only the Wii, but the PS3 and Xbox 360 as well.

The 1 2 P
11-19-2008, 05:52 PM
Fixed. :)

Nintendo - "Wii are the Borg. Resistance is futile. Hardcore gamers, you will be assimilated."


Sega?! They're no longer hardcore since they punked out of the console war with their little yellow tail between their legs.

http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr306/THE-1-2-P/FacePalm_picard.jpg

j_factor
11-19-2008, 06:25 PM
As one of those aforementioned console agnostic, multi-platform gamers, I agree with you to some extent. Where I disagree is that it does matter to a lot of developers how much first party product Nintendo is planning to put out. Of the "big three" console makers, Nintendo has been the hardest for most of the good mid-size developers to work with because they see themselves as getting squeezed out of the market by both all the crap Nintendo lets in at the low end and at the high end by all the 1st party titles Nintendo puts huge marketing muscle behind and which generally kill sales of other titles released during that 4-6 week period. It means that rather than taking risks and innovating, third party developers play it much safer than they ordinarily would or in some cases avoid Nintendo consoles altogether.

They do generally play it safer. The way they do that is by not giving Wii games very much of a budget. Wii is supposed to be twice as powerful as Xbox or whatever, but a lot of the games look mediocre to poor by Gamecube/Xbox standards. I guess the logic is that since Wii isn't "about" graphics, they just don't have to care at all.


The thing that excites me about the Wii is that it is a less-costly system to develop for and theoretically, this should mean lots of niche titles similar to the PS2 in its later years. In reality, that's not happening much right now with the exception of a couple of upcoming Sega titles and some other third party stuff which may or may not be good. Frankly, with its huge installed base, the list a number of posts up in this thread should be multiple pages long, but instead its maybe 12 titles long with one being a sequel (Sin & Punishment 2) and one being a game that is really unlikely to be innovative at all (Punchout? Really?).

Oh, it's happening. My personal "Wii 2009" list is 25 games long (and doesn't include Punch Out). There are quite a few "little games" that people aren't really paying attention to, that I think could be great.


Heck, the only two games on that list that seem to have a truly unique style are both by Sega which has always been an innovator. I guess what I want is more choice and good choices and that goes for not only the Wii, but the PS3 and Xbox 360 as well.

If you're referring to The Conduit and Mad World, those aren't actually by Sega, Sega's just publishing them. Sega's own dev teams don't make very many good games these days. :(

Frankie_Says_Relax
11-19-2008, 07:07 PM
Wait a minute. I distinctly remember the Wii being criticized for its library being too oriented towards first-party games. Now we're criticizing Nintendo for easing up?

Personally, I don't understand this dichotomy of first- and third-party games. I don't care if a game is first-party or third-party. My brain barely registers the fact that it is one or the other. I just buy the games that interest me. I don't get why people always separate games this way in conversation.

I don't care if Nintendo passed on The Conduit. It's still coming out, and it still looks damn good. Actually, if anything, it's better when Nintendo doesn't publish it, because Nintendo games are always slower to drop in price.

Well, I sure as heck never criticized it for having TOO many 1st party titles.

Nintendo 1st party titles are the life-blood of ANY Nintendo system, they often find ways to utilize the hardware in ways that 3rd party developers don't and they help Nintendo maintain their popularity in the marketplace when things get a bit lean (ala the later years of the N64 and the Gamecube).

Which is why in the Wii's 3rd holiday season, it's lack of new 1st party software (even new entries in existing franchises) is shocking to me (and many others) not only from a financial standpoint, but from an image-maintaining one - which is why we've seen multiple communications from Nintendo to their quote-unquote "hardcore" fanbase "not to worry, there are still many more games coming down the pipeline that are not marketed strictly to the casual-only audience".

I suppose between the DS and the Wii Nintendo can afford to experiment with this type of behavior now more than ever.

Press_Start
11-19-2008, 07:25 PM
http://i494.photobucket.com/albums/rr306/THE-1-2-P/FacePalm_picard.jpg

Thanks for proving my point, 1_2_P. ;)

DeputyMoniker
11-19-2008, 07:36 PM
She didn't say anything. She just responded, the way you would expect her to, when the interviewer walked her through the questions. How else would she respond? "Nope. No hardcore stuff coming up." She also sounded like she was defending the system...probably not the best way to represent the best selling console. I don't know anything about her but I dug the Sarah Palin comparison.

kedawa
11-19-2008, 11:00 PM
Nintendo...often find ways to utilize the hardware in ways that 3rd party developers don't...
Not really. They just do a lousy job of sharing technical information about their hardware with third-parties.
One of the biggest problems with the N64 is that Nintendo refused to share any data about the systems microcode with anyone outside of their own first- and second-party development teams. Most of the third-party N64 games ended up looking like trash compared to Nintendo's own stuff.

Frankie_Says_Relax
11-19-2008, 11:23 PM
Not really. They just do a lousy job of sharing technical information about their hardware with third-parties.
One of the biggest problems with the N64 is that Nintendo refused to share any data about the systems microcode with anyone outside of their own first- and second-party development teams. Most of the third-party N64 games ended up looking like trash compared to Nintendo's own stuff.

Not surprising.

Rob2600
11-20-2008, 12:24 PM
with its huge installed base, the list a number of posts up in this thread should be multiple pages long, but instead its maybe 12 titles long with one being a sequel (Sin & Punishment 2) and one being a game that is really unlikely to be innovative at all (Punchout? Really?).

So now all of a sudden ports and sequels don't count as games to look forward to? I don't understand these rules that people make up about which video games are worthy and which aren't.

Years ago, people were excited for a version of a game like Donkey Kong to get ported to their console. They didn't care that it was already released on another machine first. Why would that matter? A good game is a good game.

Anyway, I don't see what the big deal is. You're complaining about the lineup of games for next year, but next year isn't even here yet. Naturally, other games will be announced as time goes on. I feel silly for having to point that out.

And the list I posted earlier was of announced "hard-core" games only. I didn't include games like Wii Sports Resort, Ghostbusters, etc.


Nintendo 1st party titles are the life-blood of ANY Nintendo system...

Which is why in the Wii's 3rd holiday season, it's lack of new 1st party software (even new entries in existing franchises) is shocking to me

I think Nintendo isn't pushing a huge, "hard-core" game this holiday season because sales of Super Smash Bros. Brawl, Mario Kart Wii, and Wii Fit are still really strong. In a way, those are the huge "hard-core" holiday Wii games this year. With sales of those games still so high, why would Nintendo compete with itself?

Also, there are some huge third-party games for the Wii right now, like Guitar Hero: World Tour, Call of Duty: World at War, Shaun White Snowboarding, Skate It, WWE SmackDown vs. RAW 2009, de Blob, and the upcoming Rock Band 2. Maybe Nintendo is sitting back right now and giving those third-party games a chance to sell...after so many developers complained that third-party games don't sell well on the Wii (which, by the way, has proven to be untrue).


One of the biggest problems with the N64 is that Nintendo refused to share any data about the systems microcode with anyone outside of their own first- and second-party development teams. Most of the third-party N64 games ended up looking like trash compared to Nintendo's own stuff.

I agree that Nintendo should've offered more support with N64 development. As far as I know, the only third-party companies that were allowed to customize the N64's microcode were Factor 5, Boss Game Studios, and, if I'm not mistaken, Acclaim.

Still, a bunch of other third-party N64 games looked fantastic...Mortal Kombat 4, Rayman 2, Star Wars Episode I Racer, Sin and Punishment, FIFA '99, International Superstar Soccer 2000, etc.