One of those moments where I have clarity over the hatred of "fanboys"

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

Or "fanPEOPLE" to be more politically correct.

Anybody who knows me well knows I'm a universal supporters of any company, console, portable, hardware or software developer who wants to throw their hat in the ring and give this whole thing a go for the benefit of my entertainment.

Often times I'm perplexed by the behavior of "fanboys" to the point of frustration.

Last night I had a moment of clarity where I could, in the moment see the POV of somebody who truly "hates" a company as if said company was a sentient being capable of independent thought.

Here's the backstory, I'll try to keep it in broad strokes so stay with me.

I bought a 360 at launch.

Well, technically I PURCHASED one unit. I had to RETURN the 360 three times in one day to get one that had properly shielded audio output that didn't make awful "buzzing" noises on my LCD tv.

After about a year of ownership, the disk tray stopped functioning on my first 360. This was before MS had fessed up to any major hardware flaws and extended EVERYBODY'S warranties across the board, so, I didn't call them for assistance (not to mention that my initial calls to their service department regarding the audio issue had resulted in a lot of confused Indian service technicians who didn't have any real answers) I simply swapped the unit out at a close friend's GameStop for another used unit.

At approximately one and a half years of ownership of the new (used) 360 my credit card was stolen. After canceling the card I attempted to remove it from any device that had stored information on it for that card. Wii? No problem as it doesn't store the data. PS3? No problem delete the old card info and type in the new card info. 360? No dice. You can't "remove" credit card information manually from YOUR OWN CONSOLE.

At that point I was at an unwanted crossroad, I had to call the MS customer service line. I'll save you the details of a total of THREE calls over the course of the next year regarding this issue in which EVERY CASE I was PROMISED that they had "removed" the card from their system and that it would in 30 days be removed from my 360 dashboard. It never was and it never did.

Then, earlier this year MS introduced the Digital Rights Transfer system which will allow you to transfer the purchase license for all of the XBLA games that you've purchased online to another console so you can actually PLAY those games when you're not connected to XBL (have you switched 360 consoles this year and not used the tool? guess what? 90% of your downloaded XBLA software on your HDD won't work unless you're connected to XBL with the associated GamerTag!) I confirmed through the official XBOX forums that using the tool will give the user an opportunity to REMOVE/CONSOLIDATE old/expired credit cards on your dashboard (YEAH ... you can't even remove EXPIRED credit cards manually) and even though I had full knowledge that you could ONLY use this tool once a year I so FOOLISHLY used the tool on a nearly 2 year old used 360 (I know I know, WHAT was I thinking?).

For a compulsive guy like myself, getting that old credit card info off my system was enough to make using the tool attractive for that feature ... so I did it and all was right in my 360 universe, AND since the tool is completely automated and works via Microsoft's website I didn't even have to speak to an operator in India for an hour trying to explain what I wanted in terms that they could understand.

FAST FORWARD (I know, too late) to yesterday. I was giddy that I had run across a used copy of Left 4 Dead at Gamestop because I had a 20% off coupon that put the game just under $40. The axiom that your 360 will break/RROD just when you buy a game that you're looking forward to is very very true as as soon as I got home to try it out, my disc drive (and disk drive board, which is an essential part of the console's identity) went POOF, it literally blew/smoked/arced out ... no power, no tray action, no nothing. Props to Murf at the DP store for trying everything down to re-soldering the joints on the motor to try to resurrect it. It was dead to the world for who KNOWS what reason.

So. Yet another crossroads. What to do. Send this system back to MS for repairs and have to deal with them potentially telling me that they won't touch it because its out of warranty and was opened up and fiddled with, OR buy a new arcade unit which would net me a brand new console with an HDMI port, a 2nd wireless controller (which I didn't previously have) and a copy of Sonic Superstar Tennis which I could immediately sell (lol).

The choice was clear ... new console ... and the knowledge that having used the DRM transfer tool once in the past year that I'd have to see how much of a no-break policy it was if I called MS.

Turns out they won't budge on it. At all. Regardless of the logic that you put forth to them.

The process is curious to me to begin with, and I now can see why so many PC gamers (who aren't flat-out software pirates) go NUTS when DRM is unexpected in major releases.

Let's look at some of the logical arguments why I should be able to, at my request DE-AUTHORIZE my old, dead, 360 in MS's computer bank and transfer my DRM to my new 360, some of these reasons may be subjective/debatable, but just humor the LOGIC contained within please. Thanks.

1.) I pay $50 a year for XBLA, there's a sense of entitlement that goes along with that service. Sony doesn't charge me ANYTHING for use of their online service, and I can transfer Mega Man 9 to up to FIVE PS3 systems. How does that work?

2.) If it is a matter of authorization/rights for ONE console and ONE console only, MS can see the ID of my console the moment it goes online. If I request that the console ID of my old console be DE-AUTHORIZED to have the DRM removed from that ID and transferred to my new console that should LOGICALLY constitute maintaining what they're looking to accomplish with their service ... which is to not allow people to transfer XBLA games to multiple consoles and play them whenever they please (notably when they're not connected to XBLA).

3.) Even in the case of rigid rules - CUSTOMER SERVICE should prevail in this situation, as I had clearly cited that what LED me to this conundrum was that Microsoft's customer service department REPEATEDLY promised to deliver on something that they did not. Ever. What I was asking for was not punitive, it wouldn't cost them any money, it wouldn't take up any more of their time than having a service tech type a console ID into his computer, HELL they have an AUTOMATED service set up for the process that requires NO human interaction ... yet they flatly refused to do so for me even in the case of "good customer service" (of which I've never received ANY from Microsoft for my 360. Ever.).

So. I'll need to be tethered to my XBLA account for about a year if I want to play an XBLA game ... not too big of a deal in the big picture as my connection is usually fine and never goes out for any extended period ... however at the core of this issue is illogical policy and terrible customer service, which for a moment gave me some clarity into why SOME people may "hate" Sony, Sega, Nintendo (and most importantly) Microsoft ... moments of "human" interaction with people representing that company that make you feel as if they're genuinely going out of their way to hurt you on a personal level.

Of course I still love my 360 (I wouldn't feel so passionately about this situation if I didn't want it to all work perfectly) but it was truly a moment of clarity in an arena that often confuses me, and I hope a shared experience that will make some people think twice about DRM and their 360 consoles.

[Hwj_Chim]

this is why I hate drm and have yet to buy a 360

[nintendoeats]

I think you are giving fanboys too much credit. Speaking as a former Nintendo Fanboy (the most rabbid of them all during the GCN era) I can tell you that most of them are just post-rationalising when we say things like that. the reasons for fanboysim play alot more into cognative dissonance, and other psychological stuff.

One part of it is the investment issue. "I bought this, so I need to know that its the best thing ever and convince everyone else that its the best thing ever."

There are real practical aspects to that, but they are far outweighed by the suffering that it brings to fanboys and those that they berate. Oh yes, fanboys are suffering. They are angry all the time, and they don't get to do things that everyone else does (in my case this was playing Halo, though in retrospect that wasn't such a great loss) just on the principle that "its on the Xbox."

Really what it boils down ot though, is our inate tendancy for tribalism. Its all for the same reason that people form activists groups, defend their countries failed polocies (:deadhorse:) and follow the same religion that they grew up with. People like bieng part of their group, and any admition that their tribe might be, oh i don't know, retarded in some way is just more than a person can handle most of the time.

That said, sucks about your 360 man. What a bunch of jackasses.

[Xander]

That whole story comforts me into my decision to completely ignore Microsoft's products when it comes to console gaming.

[XYXZYZ]

Damn, I miss the days where you bought a game console, you stick a game in it, turn it on and play it. And that was it.

[scooterb23]

There's usually a lot less logic that goes into a fanboy's way of thinking.

[Kid Ice]

Now that I have all three systems, I will no longer purchase any disc based software for the 360. I'm actually afraid to use the damn thing, but I can't live without the occasional XBLA download. PSN is making strides though, so...who knows.

[swlovinist]

As owner of all three newest systems, I find myself mostly

Playing all the previous gamecube games that I ignored on the wii
Playing Blu Ray movies on the PS3 20gig/along with PS2 games
Praying to God my initial run 360 keeps on trucking, randomly playing some COD4

With that being said, it is only a matter of time before my 360 goes out I fear

[CosmicMonkey]

Damn, I miss the days where you bought a game console, you stick a game in it, turn it on and play it. And that was it.

Indeed. I was saying this exact same thing to a young lady working in Game Station a couple of months ago. Plug SMW in the Super Fami, turn it on and off we go. No arsing about with firmware upgrades, dashboards/XMBs or wondering if you have the best version of the console. It really was so much simpler.

As for the whole fanboy thing, I'm just a fan of stuff that's well designed and works how it damn well should. Xbox 360s simply will die no matter what, and Windows is a bag of absolute toss. And that's why I'll sticking with my Mac, iPhone and PlayStation3.

But this goes for things other than electrical home entertainment goods. I'd rather spend the cash and get the best make/model of whatever I'm buying. I've never seen the point in wasting cash on cheap crap as it really doesn't save any money in the long run.

[ProgrammingAce]

the reason MS won't allow more then one activation per year is due to the publishers. You could, in theory, transfer all your shit to a console, transfer the DRM to that console then leave it off the internet and do it to another console. Basically it would give you infinite copies of any game you want.

Instead, here's what should have happened, Never let anybody open your 360 for any reason. They can't fix it, they're not customer serviceable and you get screwed in the long run. If you had sent the console in to MS for repair, the most it would have cost you is $125 and they'll transfer your DRM rights over for free. It doesn't count against your single transfer per year.

With a max repair cost of $125 (out of warranty), there's no reason to buy more then one 360 per year unless you're being an idiot and opening them up.

So the gist of the story is that you used the Rights management tool for astethic reasons, and then had someone void your warranty and you're mad at microsoft because they refuse to grant you special privledges?

[Daria]

I'd keep calling. Different support employees are going to react to your call differently. And it stands to reason that if you're persistent they will eventually get sick of your calls and push through the console activation just to be rid of you.

It worked well when I wanted to be refunded all the MS points I spent on my husbands account. Which I'm amazed worked. He had his console repaired and suddenly I couldn't play any of the games I bought through his account. So I bitched. And three months later I was refunded all the points. Then I promptly spent them on other games because half the shit I bought on his account was... shit. :P

[ooXxXoo]

I'm the biggest hater when it comes to things that just don't work properly (for short periods of time or as they should/suppose to, anyway).....Big companies CEO's don't really care.....But still yet, we are the keepers of their destiny....

[kedawa]

It's actually pretty easy to open the 360 without ruining the warranty sticker. I used to do it all the time at my old job. We'd just save all of the stickers in case a system we 'serviced' got RRoD and had to be replaced.
Not once did any of our customers have trouble getting their system replaced.

[Melf]

I used the transfer when I got my 360 back from MS. It eventually died on me, so I bought an arcade system. I used the transfer on it without any problem, and it had been less than a year between the two.

[Leo_A]

You get a free transfer that doesn't count towards the 1 per year of the new tool they have when you get your 360 serviced.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

Thanks for the responses all.

I know that's a huge wall of text, but it's moments like this when I'm really thankful for the DP forums. A place where somebody can grouse about a console and not get their throat jumped down about being some kind of hater or fanboy.

And as far as fanboys go ... I certainly didn't mean that the ONLY reason that they hate a console/company is because of a situation like this ... but a situation like this certainly could be the genesis of hating one.

And, of course now that I actually have some FREE TIME to sit down and enjoy Left 4 Dead ... I play through an offline campaign to really get a feel for the game ... and JUST as I'm about to jump online - XBOX LIVE begins to encounter "network issues" (the kind where they change the outgoing message on the support line) and a large portion of users (everybody on my friend list included) get kicked off and can't get back on.

*SIGH*

I can't win this week.

[SegaAges]

Some fanboys are different than others. I see myself as a Sega fanboy, and don't mind saying it. I just, generally, like the games they put out, loved the consoles, and have a strange fetish man crush on sonic the hedgehog.

[boatofcar]

Instead, here's what should have happened, Never let anybody open your 360 for any reason. They can't fix it, they're not customer serviceable and you get screwed in the long run.

I've gotta agree. Never, ever do this.

[Sabz5150]

I bought a 360 at launch.


You poor, unfortunate soul.

Welcome to why I have despised Microsoft for over a decade... long before they introduced any sort of gaming console. This sort of crap is usual business for RedmondCo. They always leap before looking... hell, just follow the history of their operating systems.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

I've gotta agree. Never, ever do this.

A good point, but it was well out of warranty, and it did NOT RROD as a point of failure - so MS would have needed an equally long and frustrating "arguing session" on the customer service line to possibly give me an extended warranty.

And regardless of what any of you may or may not believe, Murf has serviced many 360s back to complete working order at the DP store, so I trust him enough to TRY.

It was a nothing to lose situation at that point, and again, it's not so much about the money as it is about the logic (and lack thereof) behind the DRM transfer policy.

[smork]

With a max repair cost of $125 (out of warranty), there's no reason to buy more then one 360 per year unless you're being an idiot and opening them up.

I've had a 360 for 2 years and have about 40 games. This statement makes me greatly reconsider the wisdom of that investment...

Out of some 40 or so consoles I own or have owned, i've only ever had to get two replaced -- an original PS2 (which I screwed up) and my 360. Why is it that others can make consoles that just work, and work well (I'm looking at you, Nintendo) and MS coughs up a pile of substandard glue, clamps that warp, and ruin?

If my Elite goes out -- screw getting a new one, I'll just sell the games and play the PS3. No point in encouraging their shoddy hardware, no matter how much I like the games.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

the reason MS won't allow more then one activation per year is due to the publishers. You could, in theory, transfer all your shit to a console, transfer the DRM to that console then leave it off the internet and do it to another console. Basically it would give you infinite copies of any game you want.

Instead, here's what should have happened, Never let anybody open your 360 for any reason. They can't fix it, they're not customer serviceable and you get screwed in the long run. If you had sent the console in to MS for repair, the most it would have cost you is $125 and they'll transfer your DRM rights over for free. It doesn't count against your single transfer per year.

With a max repair cost of $125 (out of warranty), there's no reason to buy more then one 360 per year unless you're being an idiot and opening them up.

So the gist of the story is that you used the Rights management tool for astethic reasons, and then had someone void your warranty and you're mad at microsoft because they refuse to grant you special privledges?

Re read my initial post.

I understand the reason the DRM is in place.

I acknowledge that I used it for aesthetic reasons.

My frustration lies in the fact that MS failed to deliver on repeated customer service PROMISES.

Additionally, I clearly detailed the monitary value of purchasing the arcade unit.

For the cost of repairs for this uint (which would have likely maxed out at $125) I purchased a new arcade unit which included HDMI output which my previous unit didn't have, a new wireless controller, and a game immediately worth trade-in credit. When all was said and done with some trade-in merch, my total cost out of pocket was $128 in cash ... considering that a wireless controller retails for $40, and I'm not even sure what those HDMI add-on ports cost (I'll assume ABOUT as much as the controller) ... that's really not that drastic a difference cost-wise, with no wait for shipping (AND I now have a console with a fresh RROD warranty).

... even though I had to think on my toes in the moment regarding the decision, I resent being called an idiot - or being lumped into some category with those you'd consider to be.

I'm not "mad" at Microsoft. I'm very self aware of the decisions I made and I'll stand by them as reasonable ones.

I'm only "frustrated" that every single "customer service" experience I've had with them has been disasterous in terms of them not being able to be reasoned with logically.

I've been in customer service for many many years, and in management for the lions share of those years - and it goes without saying that in some cases, especially ones where there is ANY evidence that the corporation has failed to make the consumer satisfied/happy - rules are made to be bent and/or broken. With the amount of "free" extended warranties and MS points cards/codes that I've heard stories of MS giving away due to long, bad, customer service experiences, I'm just frustrated that I couldn't get them to help me out ONE TIME based on what was largely THEIR initial failing.

And, if you think about it. Technically speaking you can still put your software on a quote-unqoute "infinite" amount of offline 360s ... if you do it ONCE A YEAR via their automated tool.

And as far as "not opening up consoles" ... I think that the Technical and Restoration segment of this site would disagree with that sentiment. For the most part, most console "repair" work consists of simply "replacing" defective parts. If someone is familliar enough with what parts break, and the proper way to replace them, it's simply a matter of doing just that. There are probably a hundred DP users that can do repair work from replacing a flat ribbon cable to re-soldering a processor chip on a 360 without batting an eye. Yeah, it doesn't say "MS repair tech" on their pay-check ... but 10 years from now, once Microsoft STOPS servicing 360's those are the people that I'll be bringing my console to for repairs.

You can't send a JVC X-Eye or a 3D0 in for repairs, can you?

[mailman187666]

sorry to kinda switch the subject, but I've never actually found out where the "tool" is to switch the DRM to a new console. I need to do this to my 360 so that I don't have to be online to play my XBLA games. I've heard of it but never knew what I had to do to get all this set up on my new console (my 3rd console). Anybody have a link or anything they can throw in here?

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

sorry to kinda switch the subject, but I've never actually found out where the "tool" is to switch the DRM to a new console. I need to do this to my 360 so that I don't have to be online to play my XBLA games. I've heard of it but never knew what I had to do to get all this set up on my new console (my 3rd console). Anybody have a link or anything they can throw in here?

http://www.xbox.com/en-US/support/systemuse/xbox360/licensemigration/default.htm

In the immortal words of Family Guy Spider-Man "everybody gets ONE" (per year).

[TonyTheTiger]

The whole "hating a company" thing actually extends to a philosophical argument. The fact that an entity that's essentially a legal fiction, that is not capable of really doing anything, can earn either respect or hatred is pretty interesting to me. This goes into pretty serious matters, too. Think about how corporations can face criminal charges. The cynical person might think of criminal liability for corporations as a way to punish the wholly innocent stockholders because of all the fines that the company has to pay out while the real bad guys who actually made the decisions get to walk away because the corporation was the criminal, not the people who made it up.

So when something like this happens, who is to blame? Who is the "bad guy"? That's not an easy question because what you end up with are a whole bunch of people who concoct a corporate policy while at the same time the people who deal with the customers might actually believe something should be done but cannot bend out of either fear of losing his or her job or just because the option isn't available.

Because these individual decision makers and/or people in middle management who have limited power are all generally "faceless" to the public, it is much easier to declare "I hate Microsoft" as opposed to "I hate...John Doe #1, John Doe #2, John Doe #3, et. al."

I remember not too long ago I had a big problem with Mass Effect. There is a glitch rather late in the game that if you save at a certain point you can't progress upon reloading. Essentially, I had to restart from the beginning. BioWare was more or less useless. I don't even know if they fixed the problem in the PC version. I didn't really expect anything in return. How do you value time lost in a video game? It's not like I would have been working during those hours or anything. But I basically just felt like being a pest to see what kind of responses I'd get and if I could be loud enough to get a patch released that would fix the save file.

That didn't happen but I did manage to find the phone number for the Vice President at Microsoft Game Studios. I spoke to his secretary and was using vague terms like "I think some equity is in order" because I honestly didn't know what I could or should get for my troubles and needed an "in" so to speak. His secretary gave me his email address and let's just say he was rather surprised I managed to contact him so directly at his office. He requested my phone number so he could call me directly. Much to my surprise I received a phone call shortly after.

Now imagine someone who had called just about every number he could find for both BioWare and Microsoft (both public and intentionally well hidden) and emailed just about everyone I could all the while being met with either no answers or transfers to foreign service people who kept asking me if my disc was defective. I was not exactly happy but this was an ongoing excursion so I wasn't enraged, which I rarely get anyway. My mood was more of a tempered frustration than anything else. But by the time this phone call ended, I became surprisingly content.

You see, it was very clear from the outset that this man I spoke with had virtually no PR experience. He didn't try to bullshit me or anything and more or less said "that royally sucks but I can't help." He was clearly nervous during the early parts of the conversation. I guess he was afraid I was going to scream at him or something. Halfway through the call I realized something that made me relax to the point that I didn't care about the save file. Here I was talking to someone who not only had nothing to do with my problem but probably didn't even know the glitch existed in the game at all. I obviously wasn't being mean but I was more or less calmly bullying an innocent person who doesn't know me from Adam. It was the first "human" moment I had since as far as I was concerned, all the my previous conversations were failed attempts at speaking with "the corporation." In a way, being able to contact someone beyond the corporate line you get fed at 1-800-4MY-XBOX was its own form of "equity."

This isn't to say that everyone should walk away empty handed but with some phantom bluebird on his or her shoulder like I did but I find it makes more sense that if I'm going to hate anything it should probably be BioWare and/or Microsoft Game Studio's QA rather than the companies as a whole. I can hate this policy or that oversight but to lump the entire company into one big ball of hatred bothers me. Forgive me for being a little inflammatory at the moment but it reeks of the same kind of thought process that drives people to say, "A member of X minority wronged me so therefore the entirety of X minority is vile." We make more allowances for "EA corporate heads did X number of bad things so therefore EA sucks" because it's a faceless corporation and not a human being so the analogy to racism doesn't come into play as strongly but I don't see how the thought process isn't the same. It might not be nearly as serious a moral offense but when a corporation is just a name and a name alone and exists solely because a large number of people are employed under that banner, it just sounds backwards to hate the banner itself. Which is even more philosophically relevant because I'm not sure anyone who says "I hate (insert company)" will necessarily say the same about any individual employee of that company. So what are they really hating?

[blue lander]

I think this thread just convinced me not to get a 360 this Christmas...

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

I think this thread just convinced me not to get a 360 this Christmas...

well...the faulty hardware has been a persistent issue since day 1 and really isnt a reason not to get a 360 (and certainly noy my intention in terms of making this thread).

you get a decent warranty for hardware failure (rrod) these days too.

like I said... I love the thing, but dealing with MS customer service? Not so much.

[MarioMania]

I want a 60 Gig PS3 & SC4..They don't sell the 60's no more :(

[RyanMurf]

I feel like programmingace is hating on me:(

[kupomogli]

I want a 60 Gig PS3 & SC4..They don't sell the 60's no more :(

If it wasn't for the Ad-hoc party about to be released, I'd sell you my 60GB. Sorry, but Ad-hoc party is going to make my PSP much more awesome than it already is.

[lazyhoboguy]

"Instead, here's what should have happened, Never let anybody open your 360 for any reason. They can't fix it, they're not customer serviceable and you get screwed in the long run. If you had sent the console in to MS for repair, the most it would have cost you is $125 and they'll transfer your DRM rights over for free. It doesn't count against your single transfer per year.

With a max repair cost of $125 (out of warranty), there's no reason to buy more then one 360 per year unless you're being an idiot and opening them up.

So the gist of the story is that you used the Rights management tool for astethic reasons, and then had someone void your warranty and you're mad at microsoft because they refuse to grant you special privledges?"

any1 else see the problem with this? Why in the hell should you have to even replace a sytem once a year. They are supposed to work , that is what you are paying for. If you just keep buying flawed hardware every year what is the company's incentive to make their hardware work?

[s1lence]

I'm going to say also that the DRM issue is crap. I've had 3 systems replaced and they don't transfer the DRM, they DON'T....period.

I had to do the DRM fix and then of course I had an E-74 error. I get the letter that the licenses transferred when I get another system back. Tried it....nope. DRM was not transferred. I still have to wait another 4 months to fix this problem.

I hate DRM.......hate hate.

[blue lander]

like I said... I love the thing, but dealing with MS customer service? Not so much.

No video game console is worth that amount of hassle to me. I spend enough time on the phone with ineffective customer servants at work, I don't want to have to do the same thing when I'm trying to relax at home.

[Sabz5150]

No video game console is worth that amount of hassle to me. I spend enough time on the phone with ineffective customer servants at work, I don't want to have to do the same thing when I'm trying to relax at home.

Preach it, brotha!

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

No video game console is worth that amount of hassle to me. I spend enough time on the phone with ineffective customer servants at work, I don't want to have to do the same thing when I'm trying to relax at home.

Gotcha.

[RyanMurf]

Uh OH!!! it looks like this thread attracted all of the die hard nintendo and sony Fanboys hating on the Ole Xbox! The bottom line is IMO that the xbox 360 has the best games out rite now. The reason why people go through all of the hassles is because they like the games. Id much rather go through the hassle of getting my 360 fixed over buying a ps3 or wii that will sit on a shelf forever and have nothing but shitty games to play except for a very few exceptions.

[nintendoeats]

But...we aren't talking about the games here, just the terribleness of MS customer service and Quality control. In case you hadn't noticed, most of the posters OWN xboxes (plural). Nobody is saying that all the games suck, just that the hardware is infuriating.

And don't you dare call me a nintendofanboy, because I exited that stage of my life 2 years ago.

P.S. I loves my PS3 AND my Wii. so nyaah.

[RyanMurf]

But...we aren't talking about the games here, just the terribleness of MS customer service and Quality control. In case you hadn't noticed, most of the posters OWN xboxes (plural). Nobody is saying that all the games suck, just that the hardware is infuriating.

And don't you dare call me a nintendofanboy, because I exited that stage of my life 2 years ago.

P.S. I loves my PS3 AND my Wii. so nyaah.

Hey buddy listen you probably misread my post. I was talking about about how people are complaining about xbox 360's because of the defect rate and the hassles to get them fixed. If you spend the time to re read my post all I talk about is how it is worth it IMO to go through the hassles because of the fact that the games are great for the system. I was also trying to throw some humor and sarcasm in the post also so cool your guns pal.

[SegaAges]

But...we aren't talking about the games here, just the terribleness of MS customer service and Quality control. In case you hadn't noticed, most of the posters OWN xboxes (plural). Nobody is saying that all the games suck, just that the hardware is infuriating.

And don't you dare call me a nintendofanboy, because I exited that stage of my life 2 years ago.

P.S. I loves my PS3 AND my Wii. so nyaah.

No need to get all defensive if you get called a fanboy. Everybody who has seen more than 3 of my posts knows that I am a Sega fanboy. I am proud. Whether you are or not, be proud either way.

[nintendoeats]

I'm kind of less angry about being called a fanboy (which I wasn't directly, nor do I infer that I have been called one, so in fact I was being preventive rather than defensive). It just that every time people criticise something they called a fanboy for the other thing. It's like the ID-evolution war: so much mudslinging that nothing ever gets accomplished.

[RyanMurf]

I'm kind of less angry about being called a fanboy (which I wasn't directly, nor do I infer that I have been called one, so in fact I was being preventive rather than defensive). It just that every time people criticise something they called a fanboy for the other thing. It's like the ID-evolution war: so much mudslinging that nothing ever gets accomplished.

http://www.goodnessdirect.co.uk/detail/955193b.jpg

[RyanMurf]

I'm kind of less angry about being called a fanboy (which I wasn't directly, nor do I infer that I have been called one, so in fact I was being preventive rather than defensive). It just that every time people criticise something they called a fanboy for the other thing. It's like the ID-evolution war: so much mudslinging that nothing ever gets accomplished.

Again I was trying to be funny I guess I failed. I hope my post is more clear to you now.

[nintendoeats]

Your link is busted. Yes, your post is more clear. But does the word fanboy seriously have to come up in every discussion? I think we have another Godwin.

[Sabz5150]

Uh OH!!! it looks like this thread attracted all of the die hard nintendo and sony Fanboys hating on the Ole Xbox! The bottom line is IMO that the xbox 360 has the best games out rite now. The reason why people go through all of the hassles is because they like the games. Id much rather go through the hassle of getting my 360 fixed over buying a ps3 or wii that will sit on a shelf forever and have nothing but shitty games to play except for a very few exceptions.

Let's say you buy a car... let's call our car the Fjord El-Capimpage. Fast as hell, looks great, has the best accessories and mods. You decide to take your El-Capimpage out for a spin one day and BAM, the block cracks in half thirty seconds after you start it. You call the Fjord dealer and they tell you "No sweat! Bring it in and we'll fix it!"

One week (and several bummed rides to work) later, your El-Capimpage is back in your hands, brand new block installed. Three weeks later... BAM! Block cracks itself in half AGAIN. Same deal... you spend a week watching other people drive their Oldsmoghettos and Bukes while you wait for the third engine to be installed in your El-Capimpage. After this happening its fourth time, you find out that there''s a NEW version of the El-Capimpage, one that Fjord says fixes the block cracking problem that *they were aware of from the start*. You sell your old version and buy the new hotness.

BAM! Cracked block.

Now, would you buy another car from Fjord again?

Put simply, the only people willing to put up with the hell that is the 360... are fanboys. No two ways about it. Any other product with that failure rate would have been in the trash and forgotten regardless of how "elite" it may be.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

Hey buddy listen you probably misread my post. I was talking about about how people are complaining about xbox 360's because of the defect rate and the hassles to get them fixed. If you spend the time to re read my post all I talk about is how it is worth it IMO to go through the hassles because of the fact that the games are great for the system. I was also trying to throw some humor and sarcasm in the post also so cool your guns pal.

It's worth it to go through whatever hastles one needs to to keep gaming on a 360 ... but the crux of the discussion here is how most of the "hastle" provided BY MS's customer quote-unquote "service" department is absolutely needless considering the admissions they've made regarding their own substandard build quality.

I mean ... who came up with a 1 year limit on DRM transfers?

When the system launched there was NO DRM.

Then it was added via a firmware update without much of a full explanation/disclosure in the public eye.

Now they allow it once a year ... or allegedly automatically when you send a console in for repairs.

Why one year?

Why not two years? Why not six months? Why not ten years? Why not NEVER?

One year is a nonsensical logistical number that doesn't really mean ANYTHING if you think about it.

Sure, I SUPPOSE as far as an "automated process" with online web tools running the whole thing - having a solid number to work with in terms of volume and tracking is understandable ... but when you call and speak to a human being, explain your situation and the logic surrounding your needs/reasons - considering that the act doesn't really cost ANY time or money to MS (no shipping, no tracking, no repairs, no labor, no person having to extend any effort beyond typing a number into a computer) ... they should make at the very least a one-time exception to a rule like that. That's just how good customer service works. If you can do something, ANYTHING that won't cost your company money to make a dedicated consumer happy - DO IT!

*sigh*

[nintendoeats]

maybe they hope that you will rebuy your XBLA stuff?

[mailman187666]

Let's say you buy a car... let's call our car the Fjord El-Capimpage. Fast as hell, looks great, has the best accessories and mods. You decide to take your El-Capimpage out for a spin one day and BAM, the block cracks in half thirty seconds after you start it. You call the Fjord dealer and they tell you "No sweat! Bring it in and we'll fix it!"

One week (and several bummed rides to work) later, your El-Capimpage is back in your hands, brand new block installed. Three weeks later... BAM! Block cracks itself in half AGAIN. Same deal... you spend a week watching other people drive their Oldsmoghettos and Bukes while you wait for the third engine to be installed in your El-Capimpage. After this happening its fourth time, you find out that there''s a NEW version of the El-Capimpage, one that Fjord says fixes the block cracking problem that *they were aware of from the start*. You sell your old version and buy the new hotness.

BAM! Cracked block.

Now, would you buy another car from Fjord again?

Put simply, the only people willing to put up with the hell that is the 360... are fanboys. No two ways about it. Any other product with that failure rate would have been in the trash and forgotten regardless of how "elite" it may be.

I like your car names you came up with. Where the hell did you come up with that? ha ha.

don't forget about people who love videogames and people who want to get what they paid for will also be dealing with the hassle of the 360. I'm not a fanboy of any game system, but I've tried to maintain a working 360 next to my TV and consider myself under those two categories. What I am a fanboy of is Captain Morgan's rum.....because you're not actually drunk....until you've blacked out.

[Sabz5150]

maybe they hope that you will rebuy your XBLA stuff?

http://www.officialpsds.com/images/thumbs/Cigar.png

You win.

[nintendoeats]

...wtf?

[Sabz5150]

I like your car names you came up with. Where the hell did you come up with that? ha ha.

Those were the names of the cars my buddy and I came up with playing Driver 2 on the PSX.


don't forget about people who love videogames and people who want to get what they paid for will also be dealing with the hassle of the 360. I'm not a fanboy of any game system, but I've tried to maintain a working 360 next to my TV and consider myself under those two categories. What I am a fanboy of is Captain Morgan's rum.....because you're not actually drunk....until you've blacked out.

I love videogames and I want to get what I paid for. Unfortunately IMHO, the 360 gives me neither because when I'm on my fourth console and its out for repairs, I'm neither loving videogames nor getting what I paid for. "Track the Package" by UPS isn't a very good game.

Now, I'll give the 360 its credit... it has good games and excellent online capabilities. However until they have this Red Ring issue completely out of the way, it'll be nothing more than the Windows ME of consoles... always crashing, never being productive. You shouldn't have to "maintain" a working console beside your TV... it should just work.

[Sabz5150]

...wtf?

A cigar was generally a prize given to a winner of amusement park games a long time ago. Hence you get a cigar for correctly answering the question :)

[RyanMurf]

Let's say you buy a car... let's call our car the Fjord El-Capimpage. Fast as hell, looks great, has the best accessories and mods. You decide to take your El-Capimpage out for a spin one day and BAM, the block cracks in half thirty seconds after you start it. You call the Fjord dealer and they tell you "No sweat! Bring it in and we'll fix it!"

One week (and several bummed rides to work) later, your El-Capimpage is back in your hands, brand new block installed. Three weeks later... BAM! Block cracks itself in half AGAIN. Same deal... you spend a week watching other people drive their Oldsmoghettos and Bukes while you wait for the third engine to be installed in your El-Capimpage. After this happening its fourth time, you find out that there''s a NEW version of the El-Capimpage, one that Fjord says fixes the block cracking problem that *they were aware of from the start*. You sell your old version and buy the new hotness.

BAM! Cracked block.

Now, would you buy another car from Fjord again?

Put simply, the only people willing to put up with the hell that is the 360... are fanboys. No two ways about it. Any other product with that failure rate would have been in the trash and forgotten regardless of how "elite" it may be.

I see where your going with this but you have to remember that we are not talking about a car. A car is a necessity a videogame system isnt. So im sure that some people can go a few weeks without their fix of xbox live. When it comes to a car its a little different. If you can come up with a better analogy ill be able to admit that I agree with you but as of rite now i dont sorry. As long as the system has great games I will continue to buy/repair my xbox 360!!!

[nintendoeats]

I see where your going with this but you have to remember that we are not talking about a car. A car is a necessity a videogame system isnt. So im sure that some people can go a few weeks without their fix of xbox live. When it comes to a car its a little different. If you can come up with a better analogy ill be able to admit that I agree with you but as of rite now i dont sorry. As long as the system has great games I will continue to buy/repair my xbox 360!!!

Go a few weeks without my PS3/semi-decent gaming PC? The last time that happened was when my mom took away the N64 for a month. I almost died. A true gamer you are not. also, its the principle of the thing. I paid for it. it shouldn't break if I use it properly. period.

sometimes I wish you could pirate game consoles just to stick it to companies.

[Sabz5150]

I see where your going with this but you have to remember that we are not talking about a car. A car is a necessity a videogame system isnt. So im sure that some people can go a few weeks without their fix of xbox live. When it comes to a car its a little different. If you can come up with a better analogy ill be able to admit that I agree with you but as of rite now i dont sorry. As long as the system has great games I will continue to buy/repair my xbox 360!!!

However they are both products that I as a consumer EXPECT to work. I don't spend my money on something that doesn't work. If you want a better analogy, how about televisions? If (insert brand) television broke and needed to be shipped back CONSTANTLY, would you buy from that maker again? Why does Microsoft get a pass on something that would literally drive any other company selling any other product out of business?

Microsoft should be glad that they aren't cars... because the lemon laws would have bankrupted them a good while ago.

[nintendoeats]

A cigar was generally a prize given to a winner of amusement park games a long time ago. Hence you get a cigar for correctly answering the question :)

As if these forums didn't ALREADY make me feel young.

[RyanMurf]

Go a few weeks without my PS3/semi-decent gaming PC? The last time that happened was when my mom took away the N64 for a month. I almost died. A true gamer you are not. also, its the principle of the thing. I paid for it. it shouldn't break if I use it properly. period.

sometimes I wish you could pirate game consoles just to stick it to companies.

First of all you dont know shit about me. Secondly if you almost died from not playing games for a week then your a very sad individual. I almost pity you but then again I cant because I don't know you either. Third of all you really must not know me because you called me a (NON GAMER) but I wont even go there.

[nintendoeats]

First of all you dont know shit about me. Secondly if you almost died from not playing games for a week then your a very sad individual. I almost pity you but then again I cant because I don't know you either. Third of all you really must not know me because you called me a (NON GAMER) but I wont even go there.

It is now your turn to miss my point. I obviously didn't almost die, but I think that most hard-core gamers would be immensly displeased to lose their primary console for a month. Also, you are obviously a gamer. I mean, your on a retro gaming forum for monkey's sake! However, you clearly have no qwams about losing your 360 for a few weeks, which means that gaming probably isn't as big a part of your life as it is mine.

[RyanMurf]

However they are both products that I as a consumer EXPECT to work. I don't spend my money on something that doesn't work. If you want a better analogy, how about televisions? If (insert brand) television broke and needed to be shipped back CONSTANTLY, would you buy from that maker again? Why does Microsoft get a pass on something that would literally drive any other company selling any other product out of business?

Microsoft should be glad that they aren't cars... because the lemon laws would have bankrupted them a good while ago.

Well if there was 3 brands of TV's lets say Microsoft made one TV Nintendo another And Sony another. If Microsoft made the absolute best looking TV and the best viewing experience then hell yeah! As long as the warranties were decent like the current Xbox 360's warranties of course I would keep getting a Microsoft TV.

[RyanMurf]

It is now your turn to miss my point. I obviously didn't almost die, but I think that most hard-core gamers would be immensly displeased to lose their primary console for a month. Also, you are obviously a gamer. I mean, your on a retro gaming forum for monkey's sake! However, you clearly have no qwams about losing your 360 for a few weeks, which means that gaming probably isn't as big a part of your life as it is mine.

The fog has cleared

[nintendoeats]

Well if there was 3 brands of TV's lets say Microsoft made one TV Nintendo another And Sony another. If Microsoft made the absolute best looking TV and the best viewing experience then hell yeah! As long as the warranties were decent like the current Xbox 360's warranties of course I would keep getting a Microsoft TV.

Speaking as someone who seems to own a never-ending supply of things that break for reasons completely beyond my control, I have to disagree. I mean, I wouldn't mind a smaller fridge if the damn thing didn't condense NO MATTER WHAT DAMNED SETTING I PUT IT ON.

[RyanMurf]

Speaking as someone who seems to own a never-ending supply of things that break for reasons completely beyond my control, I have to disagree. I mean, I wouldn't mind a smaller fridge if the damn thing didn't condense NO MATTER WHAT DAMNED SETTING I PUT IT ON.

People have different opinions this thread proves it. some people can be patient and some people cant. Some people will settle for something others wouldnt. Its all a matter of personal opinions.

[nintendoeats]

Yes it is, but just because things are a matter of opinion doesn't mean that we can't debate those opinions.

After all, nothing is true and everything is permitted (by the way, that line was one of the best things about Assassin's creed.)

[RyanMurf]

Yes it is, but just because things are a matter of opinion doesn't mean that we can't debate those opinions.

After all, nothing is true and everything is permitted (by the way, that line was one of the best things about Assassin's creed.)

I agree I never said we couldnt debate Ive been debating for the past hour on the same thread.

[nintendoeats]

Yeah, but saying that we have different opinions when we are debating our opinions is kind of...silly...

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

Play nice in my thread please peoples.^^;

[RyanMurf]

Yeah, but saying that we have different opinions when we are debating our opinions is kind of...silly...

Haha we are getting pretty deep into this. I dont know about everyone else but I think people always think that their opinion is the rite one. That is the reason why we are debating them. BTW im starting to get confused with the whole debating and opinion things.

[nintendoeats]

Sometimes I find it hard to keep track of too. heres my rule: you are entitled to your opinion, but the moment you try to convince someone else of it I have the right to try as hard as I can to convince you/everyone else of other viewpoints.

[RyanMurf]

Sometimes I find it hard to keep track of too. heres my rule: you are entitled to your opinion, but the moment you try to convince someone else of it I have the right to try as hard as I can to convince you/everyone else of other viewpoints.

Sounds fair

[Sabz5150]

Well if there was 3 brands of TV's lets say Microsoft made one TV Nintendo another And Sony another. If Microsoft made the absolute best looking TV and the best viewing experience then hell yeah! As long as the warranties were decent like the current Xbox 360's warranties of course I would keep getting a Microsoft TV.

I'd prefer to know my TV would work every time I cut it on... I wouldn't want to sit down to watch a movie with the missus and have it explode on me. That definitely puts a kink in my evening.

[RyanMurf]

I'd prefer to know my TV would work every time I cut it on... I wouldn't want to sit down to watch a movie with the missus and have it explode on me. That definitely puts a kink in my evening.

Woah exploding..........Thats a different story I thought the TV would just die like the xbox not EXPLODE:onfire:

[Sabz5150]

Woah exploding..........Thats a different story I thought the TV would just die like the xbox not EXPLODE:onfire:

From Frankie:

"my disc drive (and disk drive board, which is an essential part of the console's identity) went POOF, it literally blew/smoked/arced out"

Exploding is more of a metaphorical term, however I'd be equally disappointed of my television simply died.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

From Frankie:

"my disc drive (and disk drive board, which is an essential part of the console's identity) went POOF, it literally blew/smoked/arced out"

Exploding is more of a metaphorical term, however I'd be equally disappointed of my television simply died.

Speaking of exploding TV sets...

I own a Panasonic 52 inch LCD TV that uses a replaceable bulb.

I've had to replace the bulb twice over the life of the set (it's about 6 years old) at around $300 a pop - and the pop is both figurative and literal (in the case of the bulb burning out with a nice loud bang).

If one more bulb goes I'll be upgrading to a plasma, or an LCD with a non-bulb setup.

[Rob2600]

the only people willing to put up with the hell that is the 360... are fanboys. No two ways about it. Any other product with that failure rate would have been in the trash and forgotten

You are exactly right. If my Wii broke four times within two years, I'd stop buying and supporting Nintendo products completely. The same goes for any other product I own.

When I buy a gadget, whether it's $100 or $1,000, my expectation is that it will last me upwards of 10 years, if not more. So far, everything I own has met that expectation.


Some people will settle for something others wouldnt.

Evidently.


EDIT: Keep in mind, I think there are different types of fanboys. There are typical immature fanboys who type "OMG teh Halo rulez!!!1!!" on every message board...and then there are intelligent, rational fanboys like Frankie, SegaAges, me, etc. who are genuine fans of certain products or design philosophies and provide valid, logical reason why.

[TonyTheTiger]

If one more bulb goes I'll be upgrading to a plasma, or an LCD with a non-bulb setup.

And therein lies the conundrum. In most cases, if something breaks you can buy something else that serves the same purpose. If I keep buying Fjords and they keep needing a new engine every so often, I can buy a different car and drive anywhere I want just the same. If my fridge doesn't work I can buy a different brand and it'll chill my food with no problems. But if I want to play "Xbox 360 game #1" then I must own an Xbox 360.

So if people put up with these hardware disasters it's out of necessity more than anything. A video game console isn't like a DVD player where you have different brands to choose from that do essentially the same thing. I doubt that people would be as willing to buy a second or third Panasonic DVD player if they had the same problems the 360s do. Most would just go out and buy a Sony or Philips or something.


Keep in mind, I think there are different types of fanboys. There are typical immature fanboys who type "OMG teh Halo rulez!!!1!!" on every message board...and then there are intelligent, rational fanboys like Frankie, SegaAges, me, etc. who are genuine fans of certain products or design philosophies and provide valid, logical reason why.

Fanboy is effectively a derogatory word. I think what you're thinking of is "supporter," "loyal customer," or just "fan."

[RyanMurf]

From Frankie:

"my disc drive (and disk drive board, which is an essential part of the console's identity) went POOF, it literally blew/smoked/arced out"

Exploding is more of a metaphorical term, however I'd be equally disappointed of my television simply died.


I wish people could recognize a joke. And im pretty sure if frankies xbox literally went poof then he wouldn't be typing away on a forum. I think he would be typing away to his lawyer?