Can I sell homebrew ROMs?

[ballpointgames]

Does anyone happen to know if its legal or not to sell original homebrew ROMs for use on emulators of things like NES, SNES, Genesis?

Would Nintendo or Sega want a cut if they knew about it? Are licenses or such required?

[Ze_ro]

Making money off someone elses hard work is not cool. Especially when it's someone in our own community of classic gaming nerds.

--Zero

[Muscelli]

You will have your ass sued unless you own the licenses to the games.

[Octopod]

They could be talking about their own home brews. Geez.

[ballpointgames]

Thanks for the replies.

I see now I was very unclear. I meant to refer to games that I might make myself, and not something someone else made.

It raises a good point though that I shouldn't try to make money out of emulators.

After having a think I suppose if anyone made a homebrew game, and they didn't want to sell it on cartridges, the best way they could profit from it would be advertising space on the webpage people can download it from.

[skaar]

Or www.retrousb.com - I think most of the games on there get a cut of sales.

[ballpointgames]

I feel like im stretching this thread a little thin here.

But my main curiosity is, whether it is legal or not to develop and sell software for the NES machine(hardware or emulated), without contacting nintendo or paying anyone any money.

Or similar question about machines like genesis, SNES, etc.



Clearly there is a larger "market" of people with emulators than people with retro machines.(anyone can download an emulator within 5 minutes)

To put it a different way i'm wondering if Nintendo could say "No you can't profit off the NES platform without a license"

Sorry, this question is probably something which doesn't need to be asked but I have the curiosity.

[DeputyMoniker]

I feel like im stretching this thread a little thin here.

But my main curiosity is, whether it is legal or not to develop and sell software for the NES machine(hardware or emulated), without contacting nintendo or paying anyone any money.

Or similar question about machines like genesis, SNES, etc.



Clearly there is a larger "market" of people with emulators than people with retro machines.(anyone can download an emulator within 5 minutes)

To put it a different way i'm wondering if Nintendo could say "No you can't profit off the NES platform without a license"

Sorry, this question is probably something which doesn't need to be asked but I have the curiosity.

No, it's a valid question and if you manage to get an answer, the rest of us may end up with a new game to play. I understood your original post, "original homebrew" is pretty easy to understand. I wish I could answer your question. Someone should be able to, and I'll link them to this thread. Good luck.

[tom]

You know I read in Game Over that Nintendo stated, 'anybody can make a game for NES', meanwhile suing Tengen :-)

Actually there's a homebrew scene alive and well for NES, Genesis, DC, 2600, 5200, Colecovision, Vectrex, 7800, Jaguar, PC, C64, A8 etc...you name it, you can make a game for it.

[ballpointgames]

ok last bump... :-s

I don't have any particular plans, and I don't have some homebrew project ready to unleash.

But console emulators are a wonderful platform. All the standardisation of a console, without the trouble of needing people to own the console. It's a bit like the Java virtual machine, except that I imagine ROMs are even more portable than Java programs.

*huff huff* ok i'm done thanks everyone

[DeputyMoniker]

ok last bump... :-s

I don't have any particular plans, and I don't have some homebrew project ready to unleash.

But console emulators are a wonderful platform. All the standardisation of a console, without the trouble of needing people to own the console. It's a bit like the Java virtual machine, except that I imagine ROMs are even more portable than Java programs.

*huff huff* ok i'm done thanks everyone

Goo luck getting someone ot pay for a ROM though. If they knew enough to steal hundreds of other games...they'll steal that one too. Just my opinion.

[AB Positive]

I don't know the legality, but I do know that the repro scene is alive and kicking without much suing going on - it may simply be a 'gray matter' deal that Nintendo would probably not want to deal with. Simply put the code is yours - regardless of the machine it's being used on.

I am not a lawyer, but on the practical side of things... I don't see how it'd cause problems. You'd be better off working out a hardware solution though.

nesreproductions.com and retrousb.com both have plans for people that have made their own games to work with.

[DeputyMoniker]

Btw, I think you meant to say EPROM, not ROM :)

Nah. He wants to sell a download, not a cart. How would you play an EPROM on an emulator? Do people do that?

[DeputyMoniker]

So you want to sell (?) other people's homebrew binaries? You'd need permission from the creators.

Btw, I think you meant to say BIN, not ROM :)


Right you are. It's too early for me yet :) Post edited.

Regarding emulation, ROM is as much a file extension as it is a piece of hardware...so in the context of the conversation, "ROM" is fine. ;)

[Flack]

I know everybody is jumping on the guy but the way I read the question was, is it legal for him to write new programs for those old consoles and then sell them. If you write them, then yes, that's legal. There are people writing and selling homebrew for those systems still. Search the forums for "Beggar Prince," among other titles.

[Zebbe]

It would be illegal if the ROMs contain code by Nintendo, Sega etc. That code would be the TMSS code in the Mega Drive or lockout chip in SNES. It belongs to the original owner and is needed to launch a game on the console. There are some ways to avoid it and it is probably even easier to do it with emulators, but it is still a very grey area. Whatever you do, most big companies won't care, since these old consoles don't mean much to them nowadays and the money you can earn is very limited.

[RCM]

If you're really serious about this and think it's a worthy venture, consult a lawyer, not classic game forum members.

[108Stars]

First of all I am no coder, so I do not know the technical details.
But you can code and sell your own games for such platforms as long as you don´t violate any Nintendo or Sega-patents. For the NES as well as for the Genesis games can be developed bypassing the simplistic security measures without a problem, (like the infamous´"10NES" chip)....for the SNES it seems to be somewhat more difficult, I have no idea if it´s security measures can be bypassed.

But since you go for an emulator you don´t even have to worry about that.

There is nothing illegal about that. They can only forbid you to use their own way of disabling the lockout, if you don´t steal their patented measures it´s all fine.

Companies like Accolade or Wisdom Tree did that back in the day too.

[Press_Start]

You are right there is a bigger audience with emulators, because it easily associate itself with the word 'FREE'. Plans to financial capitalize are kaput when free distribution of your products reach bitorrent and peer-to-peer transfer. My suggestion is go with what some of the above people suggested: carts, but if you're content with digital distribution, why not contact Nintendo and put it on WiiWare?

[skaar]

It's a development platform the same as any other. As long as you're using original assets and not "borrowing" any information from other software out there, you're subject to the same rules as development for the PC. No, they won't sue you for developing "compatible" software for one of their old platforms. They MAY sue you if you re-use sprites/music/sound and make enough of a stink about it - you might want to read up on the whole Donkey Kong 2 fiasco.

Your best bet if you're looking to develop and profit from making games/software on a console is probably to arrange hardware rather than software distribution of your titles. Sure people will dump it later, but those who actually respect the work that goes into it will pick up your titles... I've bought a few games from RetroUSB myself as well as some reproductions of fan translated titles.

Just don't put a banner on IGN ;)

[Zap!]

If you can make the game from scratch, it's 100% legal to sell for any system. Nintendo tried to pull some crap in the 80's where they have to be licensed, but thankfully it failed. A system is like a DVD player. Do you need a license for the player if you want to market your own DVD's? Of course not.

[kupomogli]

It's a development platform the same as any other. As long as you're using original assets and not "borrowing" any information from other software out there, you're subject to the same rules as development for the PC. No, they won't sue you for developing "compatible" software for one of their old platforms. They MAY sue you if you re-use sprites/music/sound and make enough of a stink about it - you might want to read up on the whole Donkey Kong 2 fiasco.

So how come Studio Archcraft, the fans creating Blade of the Sigil haven't been sued yet? If reusing backgrounds, then Squaresoft could sue them on multiple counts(FF6, SoM, CT.) There's alot of background layers that look like they're taken straight from those games.

[Zap!]

So how come Studio Archcraft, the fans creating Blade of the Sigil haven't been sued yet? If reusing backgrounds, then Squaresoft could sue them on multiple counts(FF6, SoM, CT.) There's alot of background layers that look like they're taken straight from those games.

Maybe they don't know about it yet. A better answer is they might think it's a waste of time to sue, since it's a homebrew and not a huge money-maker.

[Muscelli]

If you want to sell games that you made yourself, then it is legal, though just be aware that certain console makers may be stingy if you make the game using their official software development kits. In that case, you may need their permission. I don't think many companies would mind at this point, but its better to be safe then sorry.

If possible, I would just make the games not using the official SDKs if you are planning on selling them. I think you are in luck though, as there are plenty 3rd party SDKs available for the older systems you mentioned if I remember correctly.

I am in the process of getting a few homebrew Sega Saturn and Dreamcast games published myself, so I would love to see how things pan out for you if you want to pursue getting a few games published yourself.

[Chainclaw]

This is the wrong place to ask this, there is a lot of misinformation in here.

I'm no expert either, but I'll just point out what has been happening.

If you are using someone else's IP, you will probably get cease and desist letters. See what happened to countless mods for games, and original projects like the Chrono Trigger remake project.

Very few people charge for the actual roms nowadays, there's no use. One guy will pay for it, and then he'll share it for free with everyone else. There is a market for putting homebrew on actual cartridges. Not a lot of money to be made doing this, the people I've talked to who make maybe one or two homebrew games a year, and let sites like AtariAge sell them, said that they make less than a couple hundred a year. It's a labor of love sort of thing, and they are lucky they aren't losing money.

Here are example sites:
http://retrousb.com/ (already mentioned) - NES
http://www.nesreproductions.com/ - NES
http://atariage.com/store/ - Atari of all kinds, and Colecovision
http://www.songbird-productions.com/ - Atari Lynx / Atari Jaguar
http://www.superfighterteam.com/index.html (the above mentioned Beggar Prince) - Genesis
People also sell on auctions sites.

There are plenty more places that do this, so if it's illegal, no one is really doing anything about it.

[kupomogli]

It's being released the the DS. It was going to be released to the GBA is how long they've been working on it. They got some company to put a DS release out.

I'll admit though. The game does look pretty good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PioZ3ievw-c

[108Stars]

So how come Studio Archcraft, the fans creating Blade of the Sigil haven't been sued yet? If reusing backgrounds, then Squaresoft could sue them on multiple counts(FF6, SoM, CT.) There's alot of background layers that look like they're taken straight from those games.

If that is the case they will surely be sued when SE finds out. It is insane to use ripped graphics, and they are just asking for trouble if it is true they use graphics from Square-games.

[c0ldb33r]

It's my understanding that if you prepare your own work from scratch, you will own the copyright to it yourself. You don't need to take any special legal steps to obtain copyright protection, it's automatic when you create the work. In the USA, you can register your copyright to gain some additional technical protection, but this isn't necessary.

Since you own the copyright, you can sell your work, give it away, licence it however you wish. However, your work must be entirely your own. Don't include anything owned by someone else.

My only concern is how are you going to get your code to boot on an actual piece of hardware? I understand that some systems are designed so that they will not boot a game unless the software provides some particular code, which itself is copyrighted or trademarked. For instance, a gameboy won't boot further code unless the game cartridge flashes "Nintendo" onto the screen. Nintendo won't let you use their trademark without their permission, which costs money.

So, I imagine that if you didn't force it to flash something trademarked onto the screen for boot purporses, you'd be fine. But this will likely prevent your code from running on actual hardware.

Although, I'll be honest, this isn't a great idea. You're probably not going to make any money at it, you probably wouldn't break even. If you did make any money, it wouldn't be enough to be worth it.


So how come Studio Archcraft, the fans creating Blade of the Sigil haven't been sued yet? If reusing backgrounds, then Squaresoft could sue them on multiple counts(FF6, SoM, CT.) There's alot of background layers that look like they're taken straight from those games.
Just because they haven't yet been sued doesn't mean that they can't be sued, or won't be sued in the future.


If you're really serious about this and think it's a worthy venture, consult a lawyer, not classic game forum members.
This is the best advice in this thread. Speak with legal counsel in the jurisdiction where you will be preparing the work and also where you will be selling it.

[MrSparkle]

If you're really serious about this and think it's a worthy venture, consult a lawyer, not classic game forum members.

This is the most sound advice i've seen yet in this thread, and probably the advice to follow.

If you actually do develop a game lets say for the NES and commercially release the rom and start raking in some real money then you might run into a problem. Nintendo has a vested financial interest in control of the software for these "dead" platforms even years later because they still rerelease old games on consoles today,with nintendo for example you have the virtual channel on one hand and ds/gba ports on the other. However tons of other people have released their own roms in commercially available formats with very little documented harassment. That being said if one of the old platform developers wanted to they could probably shut you down with a strongly worded cease and desist letter. Such is the power of expensive scary sounding lawyers.

but here are a few examples of people who have for awhile been selling repros without a problem it would seem:

http://www.nesreproductions.com/

http://www.gamereproductions.com/

http://www.retrousb.com/index.php?categoryID=84

[Kitsune Sniper]

If you make your own game then you own the copyright. Nintendo won't care, you're selling software for use on emulators (or homebrew carts if you get them made.) They only care when people sell chinese famiclones loaded with pirated games.

Selling a rom isn't very ... smart. Once someone buys it all it takes is five seconds for someone to upload it to the internet and poof go your profits. You're better off selling carts if you want to make some money back.

[Singapura]

If you want to make money, develop a game for mobile phones or make a flash game. If you want to establish your name in the retro gaming community, make a game and distribute it for free. If you're making a commercial game for an existing platform you're entering potential very dangerous legal waters. Most developers won't be sued because it's not commercial viable for Nintendo or other platform owners to do so (legal costs>potential damage). However, if it turns out to be a hit they may decide otherwise. For most platforms you need a devlopment licence. That's why every game on the NDS starts with "Licenced by Nintendo".

[Blitzwing256]

nintendo only sued tengen because they illegally used thier chips (i beleive they reverse engineered it?)

[c0ldb33r]

there's a reported decision about it. it was about bypassing their lockout chip and thus breaching their patent.

[slapdash]

nintendo only sued tengen because they illegally used thier chips (i beleive they reverse engineered it?)


there's a reported decision about it. it was about bypassing their lockout chip and thus breaching their patent.

Reverse engineering would have been legal, at the time; however, the problem was that they first signed up as a licensee, got the chips, and didn't do clean reverse engineering. The courts found them guilty because they decided that Tengen had used its time as a licensee to learn the technology WITHOUT reverse engineering it.

[Zap!]

Reverse engineering would have been legal, at the time; however, the problem was that they first signed up as a licensee, got the chips, and didn't do clean reverse engineering. The courts found them guilty because they decided that Tengen had used its time as a licensee to learn the technology WITHOUT reverse engineering it.

So what was Tengin's punishment? They still made unlicensed NES games, they just couldn't sell Tetris anymore (although that's probably a seperate lawsuit).

[slapdash]

Boy, howdy, they had to take Tetris off the market entirely, which is why it was so pricey for a while -- everyone wanted it as soon as you couldn't get it.

[Gameguy]

Reverse engineering would have been legal, at the time; however, the problem was that they first signed up as a licensee, got the chips, and didn't do clean reverse engineering. The courts found them guilty because they decided that Tengen had used its time as a licensee to learn the technology WITHOUT reverse engineering it.


So what was Tengin's punishment? They still made unlicensed NES games, they just couldn't sell Tetris anymore (although that's probably a seperate lawsuit).

Not exactly, Tengen illegally obtained patent documents regarding the lockout chip and was sued for copyright infringement.

More information here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo_Entertainment_System#Unlicensed_games) and here (http://digital-law-online.info/cases/24PQ2D1015.htm).



Tetris was a separate lawsuit. I found it interesting to read up on the history of Tetris, so far just a Wikipedia entry but still informative. It talks about what happened with Tengen somewhere in the middle of the history section. The variations section is also pretty interesting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetris#History

[bunnyboy]

Not exactly, Tengen illegally obtained patent documents regarding the lockout chip and was sued for copyright infringement.


Not exactly, they illegally obtained copyright documents from the US Copyright Office, not patents. Patents are completely public and it is not possible to steal the documents. The CIC patent (http://www.google.com/patents?id=81EWAAAAEBAJ&dq=4799635) doesn't give nearly enough information to crack it anyways. Becoming a licensee also gave them exactly zero information about how it worked. It wasn't patents, or bypassing, or licensing, or reverse engineering. It was all copyright infringement.

When the Ciclone was (completely legally) made, the Tengen Rabbit CIC was an integral part of figuring out the algorithm.

[atreyu187]

I don't see a problem for charging for a game you developed that was put to a cart. As for a ROM for emulation I would simply give a donation link as if someone is happy with your work I know I would give a donation for your hard work. Making someone pay for a ROM that will be distributed elsewhere by someone else will just turn most away as every other ROM in the world is free, but this is my opinion.

[refan]

This dude is getting sued quick!!!

[SegaAges]

If you are doing it to make money, you ever think about trying your hand at, instead, making it for xml or wiiware or psn or something?

If you want to make a profit from just code (and not produce carts), that is another good option.

[darkslime]

Or you could put advertising on the site you have people dl it from.