Dune II really the progenitor?

[TVs Hasselhoff]

http://www.edge-online.com/magazine/the-making-dune-ii

I'm not even stating whether this was or wasn't a good game, but is his argument that Dune II created the template for all modern RTS games valid?

And is creating a user interface as important, or equal to, being the first "popular" game to establish a genre?

I remember a lot of hours spent playing Utopia on my Intellivision, and despite its fun game play and easy interface, did its lack of exposure (not on the VCS) make it not an important or influential game?

(and I'm waiting to see who will be the first to throw in a discussion of Pikmin with reasons as to why it might be the first RTS in a long time to try to advance the genre)

Discuss. Be curteous. Go forth and multiply.

[blue lander]

A lot of people say Herzog Zwei for the Genesis was the first RTS.

[fahlim003]

A lot of people say Herzog Zwei for the Genesis was the first RTS.

Yeah, a lot of people say Herzog Zwei for the Genesis was the first RTS.

[Giskard]

I don't think the argument is what came first but rather what was the earliest major influence on the future of the genre.

[Trebuken]

I'd take Military Madness (TG-16) over Herzog Zwei.

Also for the PC there was a game called Warlords which predates Dune II (I believe), and was fantastic...I'm sure there are yet earlier games but I wanted to add these to the mix...

[roushimsx]

I'd take Military Madness (TG-16) over Herzog Zwei.

But Military Madness was a turn based strategy game. That and wasn't Warlords turn based strategy as well?

I've never really considered Herzog Zwei to be a forefather of RTS games in the way that Dune II was, though I do feel that it was a major influence on later games like Battlezone and Uprising. Similarly, Ancient Art of War (http://www.mobygames.com/game/dos/ancient-art-of-war) was a real time strategy game that tackled things in a completely different manner than what the genre would eventually become with the influence of Dune II.

Shit, look at Warcraft, for instance. That game was Dune II w/ less variety, modem multiplayer and bridges (important!). Blizzard never has been very good at making the most original games, just making sickeningly well balanced ones.

Shame Emperor: Battle For Dune was such a weak followup. I was really looking forward to that game, especially given how much I absolutely loved Dune II (first game I picked up when I upgraded from a 286 to a 486!). Curse you, Intelligent Games!

[Trebuken]

Yeah it was turn based. Didn't catch that. Yet can we consider turn-based strategy as the progenitor or Realtime strategy?

An early turn-based strategy game that could also have inspired RTS would be Defender of the Crown.

[roushimsx]

Yeah it was turn based. Didn't catch that. Yet can we consider turn-based strategy as the progenitor or Realtime strategy?

Oh yea, no doubt. Just like how early first person dungeon crawlers eventually spawned first person shooters and all sorts of offshoots (Under a Killing Moon, System Shock, Terra Nova, etc), I don't see why we can't also considering real time strategy to be an offshoot of turn based strategy. It just took a couple of attempts before Dune II came around and created a system that "stuck" (and that other companies shamelessly ripped off of left and right).

Hey, speaking of RTS games, anyone remember War Wind? I loved that title and was always bummed that I missed out on War Wind II. Back in '01 there was a dude on eBay selling cases of them for like $10+shipping (which really wasn't that much) and I've always regretted not jumping in on it. I keep saying, "one of these days...".

Hrm...I think I may as well hit eBay right now and do some christmas shopping for myself.

War Wind fucking rocked.