A new TV for christmas.

[Xander]

Hey guys,

This christmas I've finally decided to give in and buy a "modern tv". Bear in mind the last TV I bought was in 1993, and if the RCA plugs didn't die on me I would have kept it. All in all, I'm completely out of the loop on the TV technology topic.

So anyway, I remember reading about issues with new televisions versus video games in general and it's making me nervous. I want my TV to be able to play my NES up to the new generation of console without any problems, is that possible?

I'm looking towards small TVs, like 17 to 29 inchs. It appears I can only buy LCD Flat-Panel type at this kind of size. Is there known issues with video games for that kind of TV? What brands should I avoid and what specs are important?

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

If you're inclined to play any type of music, rythm or karaoke game - EVER - I'd research what type of audio lag/delay have been reported with the specifc makes/models of sets you're looking at.

In some cases audio lag can't be adjusted on the console/title enough to make the music/rythm game playable and it's all the fault of the TV.

[shopkins]

Also use the term "input lag" in your searching. I see that a lot.

I have a really nice 32-inch Samsung HDTV and I have to tell you, anything less than component looks bad on it and even using component on my PS2 I went back to my CRT because it still looked better. You also have to realize that when you buy a widescreen TV to play SD games, you're really buying a much smaller 4:3 TV than what is reported in the widescreen length. My 32 inch widescreen is actually about an inch smaller than my 27 inch CRT if I play games in their correct aspect ratio. I could play them stretched, I guess, but I hate the way that looks.

But with HD content like an Xbox 360 it looks gorgeous. Totally worth it for newer systems.

[NES_Rules]

Also keep in mind your NES Zapper will not work on anything but a CRT. So, if you want to play Duck Hunt ever again, don't get a LCD/Plasma.

[NickyT]

I have had problems on my widescreen tv getting PSX games to work correctly using component cables, but they work fine using the normal audio/video cables. That is really the only problem I have had with them.

[aclbandit]

You may want to check into a solution similar to mine: You really will want TWO televisions if you're a classic AND modern gamer.

You will want a nifty 720p or 1080p LCD or Plasma HDTV for all your new awesomeness (PS3, 360, and *maybe* Wii). You will want something with at least two HDMI inputs, so that you can hook in both of the current-gen systems that support it.

However, you will also want an old CRT monitor for your classic consoles.

My NES and Famicom are okay on the LCD I have, but SMB2j is next to impossible due to the (milliseconds-long) lag, simply because it's such a precise game and LCDs seem to lag (very slightly) on anything less than component video. There's also the plain and simple fact that NO light guns (except, I think, the new Guncon4 (Which is, subsequently, incompatible with any older gun games anyway)) will work on an LCD-- that's the main reason having a CRT around is a good idea.

[shopkins]

You may want to check into a solution similar to mine: You really will want TWO televisions if you're a classic AND modern gamer.


This is what I do. Call me picky, but the degradation of image quality from upscaling isn't acceptable to me when I have a better option, so I kept my old TV and use it for my old consoles.

[MachineGex]

For classic gaming, you can get really nice TVs on Craigslist for about $40-80. Then, you can do the two TV solution.

[Xander]

Yeah I was afraid you guys would tell me to consider keeping a CRT around for my older systems. I try to always keep in mind time in the equation and I'm worried what will be the CRT situation in 30 years.

[shopkins]

It's likely that LCDs will probably be obsolete in 30 years, too, replaced by some other technology.

[Xander]

And that new technology may probably be even less compatible with old consoles.

[FxMercenary]

get a sharp aquos for an lcd.
get a 27" Sony off craigslist for oldschool games.

[MrSparkle]

This article is about laserdisc players and getting a good looking picture on a newer TV but it applies pretty well to some of the issues youll run into trying to make your older consoles look good on a modern TV.

http://www.mindspring.com/~laserguru/digitalage.html

To quote "Back in the day, engineers knew all the limitations of an analog composite video signal and designed their televisions to work around them as best as possible, in such ways as hiding low resolution scan-line structure. Today's televisions are more concerned with getting the most out of a digital component video source, which has different needs. Backwards compatibility with analog equipment is barely an afterthought."

[shopkins]

Heck, didn't game makers even exploit the limitations of old-style televisions to make the games look better on them? I thought I read something once about using color bleeding or mixing to get more colors on the Genesis.

[MarioMania]

What happened witth your RCA Plugs..why did it die out

[TheDomesticInstitution]

Also keep in mind your NES Zapper will not work on anything but a CRT. So, if you want to play Duck Hunt ever again, don't get a LCD/Plasma.


Not entirely true.


If you want to play any kind of older Light gun games at all (unless the gun was specifically designed for HD sets) do not buy any HDTV set, they will not work. Even a CRT HD set. I have a CRT HD set, and I've tried it.

While the term "lag" is often thrown around, and some HD sets DO have a lag that affects other types of games, the reason a light gun game will not work is not because of lag. It's because modern HDTV's (plasma, DLP, LCD, CRT) refresh the image in a different way than an analog NTSC based television.

Here's how a traditional light gun works.

http://www.howstuffworks.com/question273.htm



Keep an analog set around, if you want to play light gun games from the 8bit and 16bit era.

[Xander]

Thx MrSparkle for the URL. I've read this article and it blows my mind how many loop one guy must jump thro to get new TVs to work with old stuff.

MarioMania, one day the rca plugs in the back of my TV ceased to work. I tried different cables, different consoles. I opened the beast and got a friend who knows electronic to take a look. It was old TV manufactured by Bay Crest. He never found the diagrams online for the circuitry. After a few hours of work he gave up and I proclaimed it dead when I moved. A sad story. I received this TV as a gift when I was 5.

[DreamTR]

Even with newer games more than likely there is going to be some degree of input lag, especially with 2D fighters. Always fun.

[The Clonus Horror]

I suggest going the middle route and buying a 27" Flat Screen RCA SDTV from Wal-Mart. It cost me $250. Yes, it's only 480i, but the older consoles look great, the PS2 and Xbox look great, and the 360 looks just fine, too. So, yes, you are sacrificing High Def, but you are gaining functionality for your older consoles. I've tried the LCD route and I just can't justify owning one just for one of my consoles to look high-def.

[SegaAges]

My roommate has a samsung 56 inch, and I play SNES on it every once in awhile without a hint of lag.

Don't listen to those others, the bigger the better. Sonic the Hedgehog who stands as tall as you is totally worth it.

I suggest samsung simply because my roommate has it and I have not had any problems playing genny or snes with it

[sylvestor]

Does upgrading the output of your older consoles to s video or component solve this problem? Also I run all my classic and modern systems on the same CRT HD 1080i and everything looks great. It is HD with PS3 but still uses a flat screen tube.

[jb143]

MarioMania, one day the rca plugs in the back of my TV ceased to work. I tried different cables, different consoles. I opened the beast and got a friend who knows electronic to take a look. It was old TV manufactured by Bay Crest. He never found the diagrams online for the circuitry. After a few hours of work he gave up and I proclaimed it dead when I moved. A sad story. I received this TV as a gift when I was 5.

It might just be bad solder joints. Resoldering the jacks might fix that. Anything that is plugged and unplugged caused stress on the board and the solder can eventually get cracks that you can't really see..

[MrSparkle]

yea i was thinking bad solder points too rca plugs are notorious for dying as a result of these. Also in response to the question about using old tv technology to sidestep color limitations yes.

http://www.digitpress.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1447563

this thread covers that in regard to the sega genesis. Any of these dithering techniques would not work on a modern high def screen and may result in odd discoloration in the event that a game uses them. If I'm not mistaken it was also a popular technique to use dithering to give the illusion of a more rounded edge akin to a lazy mans anti-aliasing. Instead of having to do all sorts of complex math and at the same time using several times more processing power they would just let the pixels intentionally bleed into one another. Which is why games on older systems 8 bit especially tend to look more pixelated on modern displays.

[SegaAges]

Does upgrading the output of your older consoles to s video or component solve this problem? Also I run all my classic and modern systems on the same CRT HD 1080i and everything looks great. It is HD with PS3 but still uses a flat screen tube.


I will seriously make a video or something showing you guys. It is your tv itself that is broken. My roommate's tv can push out 1080p. Throw on Sonic 2 on there, and it does not distort Sonic at all, no slow down, no lag, nothing strange with the audio. It is Sonic, just uber f'ing huge!

If your tv acts like it is broke, your tv itself either sucks, or your tv itself is broke.

either that or the only company on the planet that has figured out how to get retro stuff to play on 1080p sets is samsung. sure, they have nice tv's, but i highly doubt they have some magical formula so that only their tv's do retro.

sure, this won't do light gun games, but it will do everything else.

The bigger and higher the resolution, the better. Just shop around to get a high quality tv.

[MrSparkle]

well a magical formula they might not have, but they might have excellent analog display circuitry. whereas most new tv's have pretty poor analog display circuitry because nothing new uses analog video signals. In the end it will be one of those legacy enthusiast features that you see on uber expensive tv's which 99% of the population would just write off as the same thing but overpriced.

[TheDomesticInstitution]

I'm gonna chime in again to agree with SegaAges... I highly recommend an HDTV for just about all classic games. The only drawback is the light gun issue I mentioned earlier. All my classic systems look great and play great on our HDTV's. We have a 46 inch sony LCD and a 30 inch tube Sony HDTV, and experience no lag. While I don't doubt that some people here have experienced problems with certain models of HD sets, there are many more that don't experience any problems at all. A little bit of research goes a long way.

[FxMercenary]

Not entirely true.


If you want to play any kind of older Light gun games at all (unless the gun was specifically designed for HD sets) do not buy any HDTV set, they will not work. Even a CRT HD set. I have a CRT HD set, and I've tried it.

While the term "lag" is often thrown around, and some HD sets DO have a lag that affects other types of games, the reason a light gun game will not work is not because of lag. It's because modern HDTV's (plasma, DLP, LCD, CRT) refresh the image in a different way than an analog NTSC based television.

Here's how a traditional light gun works.

http://www.howstuffworks.com/question273.htm



Keep an analog set around, if you want to play light gun games from the 8bit and 16bit era.


interesting, because i have a 26" HD CRT widescreen flat, and the nes zapper works perfect, but the virtua cop sega saturn zappers do not. Makes noooo sense to me, i am picking up a 27" Sony Triniton this thursday just for virtua cop to work, and ditching this pos hdtv! For some reason the speakers died after a year on it.

I got a new 32" sharp aquos lcd hdtv and it works great with rock band 1 and 2. No delay here ( reccomend hdmi )

[TheDomesticInstitution]

interesting, because i have a 26" HD CRT widescreen flat, and the nes zapper works perfect, but the virtua cop sega saturn zappers do not. Makes noooo sense to me, i am picking up a 27" Sony Triniton this thursday just for virtua cop to work, and ditching this pos hdtv! For some reason the speakers died after a year on it.

I got a new 32" sharp aquos lcd hdtv and it works great with rock band 1 and 2. No delay here ( reccomend hdmi )

Who makes your TV? What's it's model number? I've never heard of a Zapper working on an HD set. There are plenty of posts on forums all over the internet with people complaining this won't work. You do realize that there are a few tube widescreen sets that were released, that aren't HD. Is it possible you have one of these sets? In any case, I would like to know it's model # so I can check out it's user manual online, and do some research on it.

I'm not trying to negate what you say, but this is the 1st I've heard of this anomaly. This would be a good set to recommend to people looking for an HD set, if this turns out to be true.

[MrSparkle]

the resolution of the screen shouldnt effect the light guns functionality only the refresh rate and method should. Since its a CRT if it operates at the normal NTSC 60Hz i cant think of a good reason for it to not work.

[cyberfluxor]

Since they haven't been discussed in detail in the thread, what are the suggestions towards DLPs? What are some feedback from DPers that own this technology and play older systems on them?