360 Rapid Fire Control Mods = TONS OF CHEATERS ON XBOX LIVE

[GrandAmChandler]

I am quite frustrated because recently there has been a ton of cheaters on XBOX Live with modded controllers for rapid fire mode. The can be purchased at numerous sites and on eBay. This stuff is unreal, and very unfair.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ez8cGBUNEcY

Activision had a patch go out for CoD: World at War, but these people still found a way around the patch and are riding the leaderboards to the top. Anyone else seen this recently? CoD4? Halo 3? CoD:WoW? Other Games?

-GAC-

[FxMercenary]

i just grilled him on it.

"Any Form of Hardware or Software modification that gives 1 player an advantage over another is considered cheating. It is an exploitation of the game to gain the advantage.

So yes, you are infact, a hacking cheater.

Im sorry, anyone that cheats at a game does it because they arent any good at it."

[MrSparkle]

cheating in an online game!? I refuse to believe it. *loads wallhacks and aimbots before playing cs* Seriously though multiplayer gaming has always been plagued by cheating just ask the 9000th guy you see rockin that godly plate of the whale ;).

[G-Boobie]

There's a wee problem with folks using macros and turbo settings on Super Street Fighter II Turbo HD Remix online. It sucks, but there's not much you can do...

It's almost as bad as people who disconnect to avoid a loss.

[DKTheArcadeRat]

Whenever I see someone with it or someone admits to me that they have one, I file a bunch of complaints, but we know how much those do.

Bill Gates, curb stomp some bitches!

[Vinnysdad]

Im sorry, anyone that cheats at a game does it because they arent any good at it."



Agreed. I hate these damn controllers and you can tell right away when someone is using one.

[Ponyone]

Never actually seen someone use it (suspected some.. I mean some of these people on Halo 3 or Gears of War 2 are a little quick on the trigger) but I was accused one time of using one on Halo 3.

I hate cheaters.

Reminds me of this one time I used to go to this lazer tag place, and I swear to god there was this father with his son (father had to be in his late 30's - mid 40's and the son about 13) and the father was putting tape over their sensors. The guy was cheating at lazer tag. Why? Who the hell knows.

[jb143]

i just grilled him on it.

"Any Form of Hardware or Software modification that gives 1 player an advantage over another is considered cheating. It is an exploitation of the game to gain the advantage.

So yes, you are infact, a hacking cheater.

Im sorry, anyone that cheats at a game does it because they arent any good at it."

Exactly. I used to play in online chess contests where you could win cash and people would always be using computer chess programs to tell them what to do. It was usually easy to tell because a computer doesn't play like a human. It was incredibly annoying anytime they'd win.

[alxbly]

I've never experienced a game where people have used autofire or whatever to cheat but, then, I don't play online deathamatches much, I prefer co-op, etc. I used to be really into Team Fortress 2 but stopped playing that when people started using glitches to cheat; building turrets in mid-air above the opponents base, etc. That really pissed me off and I lost interest in the game shortly after because the game had lost any sense of balance... cheating was how people won. :(

Out of curiosity though, are the modded controllers any different from third party controllers, such as this Hori one:

http://www.games-asia.com/images/xbox360-horipad-bluebig.jpg

It seems to have tri-speed autofire/turbofire for A/B/X/Y, I'd imagine the triggers have autofire as well. I seen a few ebay auctions for modded controllers but I thought it was just ebay sellers ripping people off.

[Nintendo Gamer]

.....

[The 1 2 P]

I've hated online cheaters since Halo 2. Modded controllers are retarded. Like I can't tell that you just shot me 8 times with one button press.

[Leo_A]

If they're using store purchased controllers with autofire like that picture above, I don't understand how its cheating. Though I'd consider it poor sportsmanship to use it to gain an advantage.

Its no more cheating than using a arcade stick or a steering wheel is when others are using standard gamepads.

[Sosage]

There's a wee problem with folks using macros and turbo settings on Super Street Fighter II Turbo HD Remix online. It sucks, but there's not much you can do...

It's almost as bad as people who disconnect to avoid a loss.

Do you have an example of a macro controller for 360? I've never seen one, yet I hear people claim macro controller use all the time on STHD.

btw...needing macro for STHD is beyond fucking weak. They simplified the command input for all the characters!

[s1lence]

The Hori and Madcatz turbo controllers do not have a turbo on the trigger buttons. I believe one of them has it on the bumpers bot not on the trigger.

Its just the evolution of in game cheating, just like the various glitches and cheats that were exploited in Halo 2 on the xbox 1.

[djbeatmongrel]

/me buys Chandler a waah burger and some french cries next South Jersey Classic

[jcalder8]

Meh, this is one of the many reasons I manly play online games that are no longer popular. Who is going to cheat at PDZ?

[G-Boobie]

Do you have an example of a macro controller for 360? I've never seen one, yet I hear people claim macro controller use all the time on STHD.

btw...needing macro for STHD is beyond fucking weak. They simplified the command input for all the characters!

Actually, I admit that I play on PS3. Problems with turbo use are more common than macros, but macro use is still an issue.

My Hori fighting stick 3 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/B000MWE3BI/sr=8-10/qid=1230181981/ref=dp_otherviews_0?ie=UTF8&s=videogames&img=0&qid=1230181981&sr=8-10) has a turbo function built right into it, and it's a pretty common stick(though of course, only sissies use it). As for the 360, look at Alxbly's post above for a picture of one. Then of course there are converter boxes that let you use any controller you want on your Xbox, or even a keyboard if that's your thing. Here's the link. (http://forums.maxconsole.net/showthread.php?t=4068) They say that some third party controllers don't go, but I've seen one in action using a PC arcade stick with macro function built in, and it works fine... The cheating scum.

Also, don't disregard custom sticks with macro functions and controller mods; they're out there(not as many as losing people would like, but more than I personally care for)

Next time you play a marathon session of HDR, watch for fools pulling off a second sonic boom less than a second after firing off the first one, instant rolls for dictator, honda and blanka, and Balrog traversing the entire goddamn screen with rapid fire buffalo headbutts: no charge time required. It's not skill or timing, it's not buffering or 'storing': it's a jackass with illicit equipment. As much as I hate dropping matches, the instant I see stuff that Alex and Daigo can't do performed by someone with a user name like "W33dCaptain420", I pull out.

[Poofta!]

evolve or die. im sure the japanese samurai considered guns cheating too. lol. enginuity will get you ahead, not catering to the lowest common denominator.

djbeatmongrel, lemme throw in on that.

for the record: i dont cheat. but then again i dont whine nor do i play shooters on xbox.

[savageone]

My Hori fighting stick 3 (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/B000MWE3BI/sr=8-10/qid=1230181981/ref=dp_otherviews_0?ie=UTF8&s=videogames&img=0&qid=1230181981&sr=8-10) has a turbo function built right into it, and it's a pretty common stick(though of course, only sissies use it). As for the 360, look at Alxbly's post above for a picture of one. Then of course there are converter boxes that let you use any controller you want on your Xbox, or even a keyboard if that's your thing. Here's the link. (http://forums.maxconsole.net/showthread.php?t=4068) They say that some third party controllers don't go, but I've seen one in action using a PC arcade stick with macro function built in, and it works fine... The cheating scum.

Where can these converter boxes for the Xbox 360 be bought?? Despite rampant bitching about the 360's D-pad I've never seen such a thing mentioned. I assume these things are fairly new? I would LOVE to use a Sega Saturn pad on my 360, even if only for SF2HDR.

You linked to a post on maxconsole but it seems to be a dead link.

[G-Boobie]

My bad. Heres' that link again.

Naughty! (http://forums.maxconsole.net/showthread.php?t=40681)

[Icarus Moonsight]

evolve or die. im sure the japanese samurai considered guns cheating too. lol. enginuity will get you ahead, not catering to the lowest common denominator.

There is a difference here. It's not ingenuity at all. It boils down to lame assed players seeking a crutch rather than paying their dues. Then again, if all they are doing is using a turbo controller I can't really see the complaint. They've been around for years... It's lame cheese yes, but I wouldn't call it cheating. I wouldn't be playing with them either so, there you go.

[G-Boobie]

evolve or die. im sure the japanese samurai considered guns cheating too. lol. enginuity will get you ahead, not catering to the lowest common denominator.

djbeatmongrel, lemme throw in on that.

for the record: i dont cheat. but then again i dont whine nor do i play shooters on xbox.


There is a difference here. It's not ingenuity at all. It boils down to lame assed players seeking a crutch rather than paying their dues. Then again, if all they are doing is using a turbo controller I can't really see the complaint. They've been around for years... It's lame cheese yes, but I wouldn't call it cheating. I wouldn't be playing with them either so, there you go.

I'm with Icarus on this one, Poofta. Of course it's 'just a game', but there are a lot of people who take certain games (and their skills earned through practice) very seriously.

The logical conclusion of your 'better technology' argument is to just let the computer fight for you since it's reactions are so much better than yours anyway. In fact, jb143 mentioned just that: using Chessmaster on a separate computer while playing for cash online: the worst kind of lame, since it removes the 'human competition' angle completely: which is entirely the point of playing games online. I'm not much for shooters personally, but there's nothing more satisfying than pulling off a close and hard fought win in a fighting game.

Having someone just waltz into a lobby and start trouncing people with macros and turbo functions is essentially the same as allowing folks who pop anabolic steroids and painkillers like they were dinner mints compete in professional sports: it's unfair and undermines the hard work and talent of people who've practiced long and hard to play as well as they do. And yeah, a skilled player can compensate for the other person using macros and so on, but it's still a serious disruption: it causes the game to flow in ways that I, for one, have a hard time adjusting for.

PS: SOSAGE: I acquired a stick for the 360 this Christmas(macro free!), so I picked up HDR for 360 too. I'm open to a throw down if you're interested.

[Garry Silljo]

evolve or die. im sure the japanese samurai considered guns cheating too. lol. enginuity will get you ahead, not catering to the lowest common denominator.


And sports players who use performance enhancing drugs are AWESOME!!!!!! (sarcasm)

[Sabz5150]

Using cheats and hacks means you are less of a player. If you can't stand like everyone else, get out. I've had to deal with cheating asshats since Quake 3 and I had no problem banning an entire IP range if I found you aimbotting or wallhacking. That, or I'd join your team and constantly screw you up (friendly fire might be off, but I can still shove a BFG up your ass and watch you fall into oblivion).

If you have to rely on things like this, you have no skill. Get out of my face.

[Icarus Moonsight]

Reread the thread and, well, I didn't mean to sound like an elitist blowhard up there... But, it's truth. If you're not good at a game, play the hell out of it if you wanna get better. Look to/for players that are much better than you and watch them, see how they do what they do. Find players that are better than you but, you have a fighting chance with. Those guys are going to be the most helpful. Keep playing with them and you will all get better together. Just don't lay out the cheese and start trash talking 'cause you bought a controller.

I have a feeling the guys that do this in online FPS are the same guys who needed a slo-motion featured pad to beat Gradius III on the SNES 15 years back. LOL

No, I don't play many online games anymore... This scenario is just one of many reasons. Say no to cheese folks, for your health and well being. :)

[The 1 2 P]

Turbo controllers, while giving an unfair advantage, is something I'd tolerate alittle more than those that mod their regular controllers to shoot 2, 4 or 8 times with every single button press. People that do that are beyond lame and have no skill at all.

[Slate]

When someone cheats to win everyone loses. There is no loss, The time spent playing the game is empty. I'd take losing over that. I recently encountered this in Left 4 Dead, The elevator exit was blocked and nobody could get out of the elevator. And no, what was blocking the exit wouldn't move at all so someone modified the game.

[kedawa]

Next time you play a marathon session of HDR, watch for fools pulling off a second sonic boom less than a second after firing off the first one, instant rolls for dictator, honda and blanka, and Balrog traversing the entire goddamn screen with rapid fire buffalo headbutts: no charge time required. It's not skill or timing, it's not buffering or 'storing': it's a jackass with illicit equipment. As much as I hate dropping matches, the instant I see stuff that Alex and Daigo can't do performed by someone with a user name like "W33dCaptain420", I pull out.
This just doesn't add up. A hacked controller can't magically override charge requirements that are built into the game engine.

[G-Boobie]

This just doesn't add up. A hacked controller can't magically override charge requirements that are built into the game engine.

I don't know what else it could be, and the guys at Shoryuken are calling 'macro'.

I have no real idea of how macro functions work from first hand experience, but I'm told that you can program a macro to take charge time into consideration and it cuts the onscreen time in half. So I guess it would go 'press button to start recording, input your charge and special, end recording'.

I don't mind losing(which is probably a good thing considering my skill level), and I don't ragequit, drop matches, or otherwise throw tantrums, so I'd like to think that I'm not just being a child for getting whupped. I've also been playing the game for years and have a pretty good idea of whats possible to do with any given character. When I've got two sonic booms onscreen at the same time nowhere near me, or I get hit with a flash kick without Guile crouching(and it's not on wakeup or at the beginning of the match), then something is fishy.

[R.Sakai]

I took a picture for everyone.

[Sabz5150]

I took a picture for everyone.

Sweet! Now plug one of those controllers into its respective console and play against me online with it.

What's that you say? ;)

[Slate]

I may have an answer to how people mod on the 360. People use the XSATA device or the 360 transfer cable, Apparently it works to connect your hard drive to your computer too.

See 5:14 or later in this video (This mod has been patched up since this was uploaded)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0901AKAE6hk

[skaar]

Couldn't find it the other day, but was on one of the laptops:

http://www.shoryuken.com/wiki/index.php/PonderCheapness

:D

This topic made me think of it.

[G-Boobie]

Couldn't find it the other day, but was on one of the laptops:

http://www.shoryuken.com/wiki/index.php/PonderCheapness

:D

This topic made me think of it.

Skaar, you crazy! :)

Here's another SRK link for all of ye. It's topical. (http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=171153)

[DreamTR]

I don't know what else it could be, and the guys at Shoryuken are calling 'macro'.

I have no real idea of how macro functions work from first hand experience, but I'm told that you can program a macro to take charge time into consideration and it cuts the onscreen time in half. So I guess it would go 'press button to start recording, input your charge and special, end recording'.

I don't mind losing(which is probably a good thing considering my skill level), and I don't ragequit, drop matches, or otherwise throw tantrums, so I'd like to think that I'm not just being a child for getting whupped. I've also been playing the game for years and have a pretty good idea of whats possible to do with any given character. When I've got two sonic booms onscreen at the same time nowhere near me, or I get hit with a flash kick without Guile crouching(and it's not on wakeup or at the beginning of the match), then something is fishy.

I want to see a You Tube if this stuff you are talking about.

[Chainclaw]

Since when are turbo controllers cheating?

[Tupin]

Since when are turbo controllers cheating?
Since people started using them online. They are just as bad as people who use aimbots.

[Graham Mitchell]

I'm a little late to the party here, but I remember when Track and Field came on XBLA last year...I couldn't beat anybody. I would watch the power meter climb to max in less than a second and think "you fucking dildo."

Now nobody plays it, so when I am lucky enough to find a challenger, I tend to win. The cheaters raped up all their achievements and moved on. Much more satisfying now.

[Chainclaw]

Since people started using them online. They are just as bad as people who use aimbots.

That's BS. Turbo controllers are really common, and they used to be packed in on some old systems. Do you get upset when someone's using a premium Guitar Hero controller when you play that online? Do you get pissed when you're playing a fighting game online with a standard controller, and the other player is using an arcade stick? What about when you are playing a FPS on the PS3 with the Dualshock, and the other person is using keyboard and mouse?

[GrandAmChandler]

That's BS. Turbo controllers are really common, and they used to be packed in on some old systems. Do you get upset when someone's using a premium Guitar Hero controller when you play that online? Do you get pissed when you're playing a fighting game online with a standard controller, and the other player is using an arcade stick? What about when you are playing a FPS on the PS3 with the Dualshock, and the other person is using keyboard and mouse?

That's not the point. If EVERYONE had a packed in turbo controller, it's not an issue. The point is, these people want to specifically mod their controllers TO CHEAT. Which is ridiculous. I have no problem losing, I have a big problem losing to someone who has to cheat to win.

Also, the whole alternate controller thing? I don't see it as an issue if the controller has the same features. If you want to use an arcade stick or control pad for a fighting game, go right ahead! As long as it does not have MACRO or TURBO or another cheating method.

-GAC-

[Chainclaw]

That's not the point. If EVERYONE had a packed in turbo controller, it's not an issue. The point is, these people want to specifically mod their controllers TO CHEAT. Which is ridiculous. I have no problem losing, I have a big problem losing to someone who has to cheat to win.

Also, the whole alternate controller thing? I don't see it as an issue if the controller has the same features. If you want to use an arcade stick or control pad for a fighting game, go right ahead! As long as it does not have MACRO or TURBO or another cheating method.

-GAC-

I come from playing a lot of PC games online, and the general rule is, it's up to the player to take every advantage they can, within the rules of the tournament they are playing.

I don't think you can actually argue that, in a fighting game, someone using a regular 360 controller with turbo functionality against a standard 360 controller has a larger advantage than someone using a nice arcade stick against someone with a standard controller.

I don't think there are any first party turbo controllers for sale, but if Microsoft offered a "Pro Controller" with turbo and limited macro functionality, how would your argument change, then?

I've had plenty of friends who play games pretty competitively, and part of that is to augment your skills any way possible within the confines of the tournament rules. Halo players would often have stop watches for timing powerup spawns, Counterstrike players would buy expensive surround sound headphones, and mice with adjustable sensitivity. In older shooters, players would adjust their game settings to make all player characters use the same model, the easiest to see model against the backgrounds.

The issue here seems to be you are using the built-in matchmaking to find games. If you want to play a game online following what you define as fair rules, you have to find an online community of like minded people, add them to your friendslist, and play private games.

[Graham Mitchell]

I come from playing a lot of PC games online, and the general rule is, it's up to the player to take every advantage they can, within the rules of the tournament they are playing.

I don't think you can actually argue that, in a fighting game, someone using a regular 360 controller with turbo functionality against a standard 360 controller has a larger advantage than someone using a nice arcade stick against someone with a standard controller.

I don't think there are any first party turbo controllers for sale, but if Microsoft offered a "Pro Controller" with turbo and limited macro functionality, how would your argument change, then?

I've had plenty of friends who play games pretty competitively, and part of that is to augment your skills any way possible within the confines of the tournament rules. Halo players would often have stop watches for timing powerup spawns, Counterstrike players would buy expensive surround sound headphones, and mice with adjustable sensitivity. In older shooters, players would adjust their game settings to make all player characters use the same model, the easiest to see model against the backgrounds.

The issue here seems to be you are using the built-in matchmaking to find games. If you want to play a game online following what you define as fair rules, you have to find an online community of like minded people, add them to your friendslist, and play private games.

So, you think using macros is okay? Personally, I don't care if the controller is a legit product or not--using macros against unsuspecting people in the "recreation" zone on XBL is unsportsmanlike. If someone wants do that, go to the "underground" or some equivalent for whatever network you're using. I really wish people wouldn't predate on me on my one day off in the past 26 just so they can extend their e-penis.

I've actually gotten messages from people I've met online asking me to let them kill me repeatedly so they can get achievements. If it's your friend that may be an acceptable request, but I don't know these people. Why should I waste my time doing that for them? I don't need online interaction that badly.

[G-Boobie]

That's BS. Turbo controllers are really common, and they used to be packed in on some old systems.

So your argument here, if I'm reading you correctly, is that since turbo controllers are common, and USED TO BE packed in with old systems, they're legit. The takeaway from that is since they're easy to find, they aren't cheating. That doesn't make any sense at all.


Do you get upset when someone's using a premium Guitar Hero controller when you play that online? Do you get pissed when you're playing a fighting game online with a standard controller, and the other player is using an arcade stick? What about when you are playing a FPS on the PS3 with the Dualshock, and the other person is using keyboard and mouse?

The important difference that you're missing here is that, in the case of the premium guitar hero controller and arcade stick, the inputs are the same. You push a button, you get one input: the one input the game was designed for. If someone wants a controller that is better made or in a different configuration, that's fine: it doesn't allow the person using it access to set-ups and actions that are contrary to the game as originally coded.

While we're at it, the only game on PS3 that allows keyboard and mouse support is Unreal Tournament III, and no one plays it. Hard to judge the benefits of K&M with one game, though a K&M combo would dominate against a Dualshock.

Let's tackle a few more of your arguments real quick.


I don't think you can actually argue that, in a fighting game, someone using a regular 360 controller with turbo functionality against a standard 360 controller has a larger advantage than someone using a nice arcade stick against someone with a standard controller.

Bullshit. Here's the difference: turbo functions allow someone to buffer and stack moves without the kind of windup that was part of the game's original balance. Instant hundred hand slaps and instant electricity for Blanka are just two examples. It won't make much of a difference for someone who isn't into the tournament side of things, but at high-level, the difference is huge. That's just one example. Someone who puts in a lot of practice can use turbo functions to buffer specials and counters. Macros take the skill out of executing specials and supers. You get the gist.

The game was not designed for turbo functions or macros. At tournaments, turbo functions and macros are not allowed. Therefore, using turbo functions or macros are cheating. Now, as to your Xbox Live point, yeah. I agree. Random matches are dangerous territory, because the community is full of douchebags and idiots. I constantly get purposefully dropped matches when I win, or hate mail from idiots, or negative feedback because I got a perfect round. I now play only with the folks on my friends list, as you recommend, but some people don't spend enough time online to develop a healthy friend's list: they just want to play a few quick rounds or maps, and have a good time. Assholes who cheat detract from that. End of story, and nevermind the 'do everything it takes to win' crap. If that's your attitude, play YOUR friend's list and leave the rest of the community alone.

OK... Have to go to dinner with some friends. I'll finish this later.

[Chainclaw]

Again, even if you consider it cheating, not everyone does. Some people consider it just another tool, some people consider it necessary to the experience.

My argument with the pack-in wasn't that "it can't be cheating if it's easy to find", it was "If the developers and publishers of these games support it, then is it cheating?"

There are no rules if you are playing online on the 360, aside from whatever Microsoft deems a bannable offence. Everyone has a different mental picture of what a fair fight in online gaming. For some people, this includes turbo controllers. Some people consider it unfair if they don't have a turbo controller, usually putting carpal tunnel or something else in their excuse for using it.

Everyone defines what the test of skill within a match is about, differently. One person might consider a turbo controller necessary because to them, the match is about choosing the right action at the right time, and any flaws in executing the action are flaws in the system, and not in their gameplay. Using a turbo controller ensures that they can unleash Blanka's electricity at the proper time. Other people consider the execution of actions just as important as the selection of the proper action. Some people feel that if they are able to do something without altering the game, then it's fair game. If the game recognizes input at a speed only turbo controllers could deliver, then they will argue that the developers don't care, or even intended the user to use a turbo controller. Some people feel because they aren't very good at a game, using a turbo controller to catch up to other players skill levels is fair. Usually these people will use an argument along the lines of "Those guys spend all day practicing, and I don't have that kind of time."

I think that an argument similar to the turbo controller argument is the broken move / broken character argument. If you are playing an unbalanced fighting game, where one character has a distinct advantage over every other character in the roster, play groups and tournaments will always make rules about this. Even if the rule allows use of whatever is broken, you will always know before playing what to expect. You don't get that on Xbox Live.

The way Xbox Live is setup is terrible for actually generating a game that all users will accept as fair. This sort of issue was much smaller when PC gaming was the only way to go online, because even in public matches, you would often at least have a one line description of what the game host expected, and the game host usually had control to remove people from the game that were not playing how they defined fair.

It's unfortunate for the users that want to just hop into a quick, fair, game, but that is Microsoft's (and Sony's, and the individual developers, and Nintendo's) fault for providing deeply flawed interfaces for finding online matches.

I'm not saying turbo controllers don't offer an advantage, I'm arguing the semantics of that advantage, and that not everyone considers an advantage like that cheating.

Hell, some people even consider practicing a game to get better cheating.

[G-Boobie]

Again, even if you consider it cheating, not everyone does. Some people consider it just another tool, some people consider it necessary to the experience.

Irrelevant. The vast overwhelming majority of people do not use a turbo controller or macro functions, because it fundamentally undermines the game, especially in the case of fighting games and multiplayer FPS games. While it isn't explicitly stated in, say, the manuals or documentation, it's widely understood that competition in these games is designed to be a skill-based affair.

The surest method of determining whether something is considered to be unfair in a competitive game is observing how the community for that game responds to it. If using macros and turbo functions were an acceptable thing within the communities, then they wouldn't be dirty words within that community. Of course, they are, because they confer an advantage(or possible advantage) that not everyone has, and that undermines the whole 'skill oriented' premise that these games represent.


My argument with the pack-in wasn't that "it can't be cheating if it's easy to find", it was "If the developers and publishers of these games support it, then is it cheating?"

Consider that those controllers were used primarily for shmups and arcade beat 'em ups, not competitive shooters or fighting games.


There are no rules if you are playing online on the 360, aside from whatever Microsoft deems a bannable offence. Everyone has a different mental picture of what a fair fight in online gaming. For some people, this includes turbo controllers.

This is true. It sucks, but it's true and unarguable.

Again, we should look at how we define 'cheating'. Next time you play a competitive shooter online, accuse someone of using a turbo controller. Watch the expletives fly. If even the people USING THEM are aware of the stigma they're courting, then surely we can agree that their use falls outside of fair play.


Everyone defines what the test of skill within a match is about, differently. One person might consider a turbo controller necessary because to them, the match is about choosing the right action at the right time, and any flaws in executing the action are flaws in the system, and not in their gameplay. Using a turbo controller ensures that they can unleash Blanka's electricity at the proper time. Other people consider the execution of actions just as important as the selection of the proper action. Some people feel that if they are able to do something without altering the game, then it's fair game. If the game recognizes input at a speed only turbo controllers could deliver, then they will argue that the developers don't care, or even intended the user to use a turbo controller. Some people feel because they aren't very good at a game, using a turbo controller to catch up to other players skill levels is fair. Usually these people will use an argument along the lines of "Those guys spend all day practicing, and I don't have that kind of time."

There's a community for every competitive game that takes pride in the honestly earned and well-honed skills they've developed. How an individual feels about that ends up being irrelevant, because the community will decide whether or not that something is fair play. In fighting games and competitive shooters, turbo controllers and macros are considered unfair advantages. The reason? The people who have put in hundreds of hours on those games have earned their skills: they don't need a turbo controller to play well, and they balk at someone trying to use a cheap out to undermine that skill.

You said you play competitively on PC games. Do you consider wall hacks and aimbots cheating? They're available for free for almost any game. They certainly give you an 'edge' against people who 'don't have lives/practice too much/whatever". Yet they're universally reviled, and for good reason: they undermine everyone else's experience, and everyone else's hard won skill.

You're forgetting that, in the end, how YOU feel about it ends up being irrelevant, because it's how every person YOU play feels that will ultimately decide for the community whether or not something is unfair or cheating.


I think that an argument similar to the turbo controller argument is the broken move / broken character argument. If you are playing an unbalanced fighting game, where one character has a distinct advantage over every other character in the roster, play groups and tournaments will always make rules about this. Even if the rule allows use of whatever is broken, you will always know before playing what to expect.

Actually, you're wrong, especially if you're playing with serious players. The only character banned in official EVO tournaments, EVER, for ANY game, is Akuma in Super Turbo. Japan has a 'soft ban' on Old Sagat, but it's not enforced except in the lower level of respect you'll end up with in the eyes of the community over there.

A lot of people take great pride in mastering 'low tier' characters. T. Hawk, DeeJay, and Elena have all been known to whup 'high tier' characters in the right hands. It just takes practice.


The way Xbox Live is setup is terrible for actually generating a game that all users will accept as fair. This sort of issue was much smaller when PC gaming was the only way to go online, because even in public matches, you would often at least have a one line description of what the game host expected, and the game host usually had control to remove people from the game that were not playing how they defined fair.

It's unfortunate for the users that want to just hop into a quick, fair, game, but that is Microsoft's (and Sony's, and the individual developers, and Nintendo's) fault for providing deeply flawed interfaces for finding online matches.

Again, you're right on this one. It's the wild west, and individual tastes will vary. That doesn't invalidate the arguments made by other individuals that using turbo or macro is unfair, though. You might not agree, but just by the nature of your stance that 'some people might not agree with you', you have to allow that other people's opinions are just as valid as yours.


Hell, some people even consider practicing a game to get better cheating.

Those people are idiots.

Look: games are, at their very basic foundations, systems designed to allow the player to win. Some people take that far more seriously than others, and will use any means necessary to get that win. Some people think that just because they're playing the game, they're entitled to the same level of skill and understanding as someone who's put in a hundred hours. Too bad.

In the end, all that turbo controllers, macros, hacks and bots do is ruin other people's experience and stunt the dumbass using them. He's not getting any better at the game. He's not learning anything, other than 'Hey, I found a solution that let my lazy ass get away with playing as well as people who've actually put in the time!". The negative reputation they develop usually surprises them too, which never fails to amaze me.

It's too bad that some people put their own e-penis in front of learning to play the game properly, but as you pointed out, there's not much that can be done about it. On SRK we have a 'bad games' thread where folks who macro/turbo/hate mail/talk mad shit get posted so that other folks who play nice can put them in their ignore list. That's about all that can be done.

[Chainclaw]

You are way too idealistic. A significant amount of people don't play for fair competition, they play to win. We've caught people cheating at lan parties, where nothing is at stake. A lot of people don't care what other people think is fair or not.

Other users complaining in the game about using a turbo controller is not a reason to not use it. Otherwise I would not be able to use any weapon in Halo, and I would not be able to use any character in Soul Calibur. People complain about anything and everything when you play online.

I know very few official tournaments for games ban characters, but casual playgroups often do. Playing on Xbox Live is akin to being in these casual playgroups. For example, when Soul Calibur 4 came out, for low level play, the game was completely unbalanced. If played as a character like Cervantes, you would have people quit early on you, or bitch at you the whole match.

If you've played an RTS online, you're probably familiar with all the weird rules people come up with in their game titles. "5 min no rush". If you've played Magic Online in the casual rooms at all, you've seen all the weird definitions of what casual play is that people have. The difference here is these people can filter their games and who joins them, so they can hopefully get the games they want.

If you accuse anyone of anything on Xbox Live they are going to get defensive.

Wall hacks and aimbots are very easy to define as cheating because any halfway decent developer will attempt to implement functionality to ban users who use this. If you use an aimbot on Xbox Live, you will get banned.

I think you're completely fair in not wanting to play against people using turbo controllers, but not everyone sees them as cheating.

[unwinddesign]

I don't see how you could call it legit or acceptable when Activision added a sensing mechanism into Call of Duty WaW to check for turbo fire.

Obviously, it's cheating, and the game companies and players don't want it. There are no rapid fire controllers available on the market that can fire off 18 pistol shots in like 1.4 seconds. Otherwise, why would people pay like $80 or $100 to a controller modder? They'd just go buy the $50 official one.

I don't play Call of Duty, so it doesn't really affect me; turbo doesn't help that much in Halo 3. It's just lame to be cheated. Everyone super bouncing, standbying and modding in Halo 2, the glitched roadie run in Gears of War 1 -- it's lame.

I have played Halo 2 with a modded Xbox to see what it was like, and it was funny for a few games. Then it gets boring. There's no challenge and you're ruining the experience of others. Lame. Boosting your rank through modding is a waste of time and proves nothing.

On another note, using a K&M adapter to play online is lame as well. If you want to use those, play on PC. If you want to play single player with them, then fine. Don't use it to own everyone in Halo with super quick headshots that are impossible with a gamepad.

Ranked matches ARE competitive, and while you don't win anything besides satisfaction and leaderboard position, people are willing to spend hundreds of hours to do so. If I wanted to play with cheats and shit I would play a custom game with my friends.

[G-Boobie]

You are way too idealistic. A significant amount of people don't play for fair competition, they play to win. We've caught people cheating at lan parties, where nothing is at stake. A lot of people don't care what other people think is fair or not.

You're been taking this weird stance that since some people think it's OK to cheat to win, and that there's nothing that can be done to stop them, then obviously it's an acceptable practice. I call bullshit, but I have no control over how you play your games.


Other users complaining in the game about using a turbo controller is not a reason to not use it. Otherwise I would not be able to use any weapon in Halo, and I would not be able to use any character in Soul Calibur. People complain about anything and everything when you play online.

See, you missed my point about how turbo controllers and macros are not taken into consideration when companies develop competitive games. They sure as hell considered weapon balance and character balance. They are not comparable concepts. Your point here is invalid.


I know very few official tournaments for games ban characters, but casual playgroups often do. Playing on Xbox Live is akin to being in these casual playgroups. For example, when Soul Calibur 4 came out, for low level play, the game was completely unbalanced. If played as a character like Cervantes, you would have people quit early on you, or bitch at you the whole match.

See response above(and it wasn't imbalanced. People are just to lazy to learn the systems. They don't actually want competition: they want to WIN, and those are the folks who end up with turbo and macro mods).


If you've played an RTS online, you're probably familiar with all the weird rules people come up with in their game titles. "5 min no rush". If you've played Magic Online in the casual rooms at all, you've seen all the weird definitions of what casual play is that people have. The difference here is these people can filter their games and who joins them, so they can hopefully get the games they want.

This is true, but does not excuse the behavior. Just because there are casual playgroups who impose limitations on play does not mean that anything goes in groups that don't impose limitations.


If you accuse anyone of anything on Xbox Live they are going to get defensive.

Because the accused understands that he's bing accused of CHEATING. If using turbos and macros were A-OK, then they wouldn't get defensive. They'd just acknowledge it openly.

And that's pretty much where I define cheating. If I join a room and everyone, or even a majority, of people are using turbo controllers, then I have no one to blame but myself if I choose to stay and play with them. That never happens though, because it's a very small group of people looking to boost their leaderboard rankings who are using them. They can't do it by playing the game as it was designed and intended to be played, so they seek alternative methods. If they chose to form one of the 'casual play' groups you mentioned, no one would care. They don't though: they force their bullshit on other people, people who universally despise their methods, and then hotly deny using those methods. They hope that people playing them won't notice that something is suspicious: they hope to look like a GOOD PLAYER.

Of course, they're not, cowboy wild west attitude aside, and it's my argument that that kind of play does no one any good. The people on the receiving end of it are pissed off because they've had their skills and experience negated, while the person using the offensive controller never gets any better at the game. Sure, they might win, but so what? It doesn't mean anything because it isn't earned.

the only real consolation here is that eventually the people using turbo and macro controllers get bored and move on, leaving the real community to play their game the way they want to. It's a small consolation, but it's all we have.


Wall hacks and aimbots are very easy to define as cheating because any halfway decent developer will attempt to implement functionality to ban users who use this. If you use an aimbot on Xbox Live, you will get banned.

I think you're completely fair in not wanting to play against people using turbo controllers, but not everyone sees them as cheating.

And that's perfectly fair. I do, and I drop the banhammer on folks who are widely known to use them. I don't mind losing to someone better than me. I DO mind losing to a cheater, because I don't learn anything and neither do they. It's a complete waste of my time.

[Chainclaw]

You mentioned that using turbo controllers does the user no good. You claim they aren't getting better at the game (which is arguable) when they defeat an opponent normally outside of their skill level using these methods. However, they are often getting something that a lot of people feel is really really important (for some reason)... Achievements. Some people compulsively NEED to have every achievement in a game. I know plenty of people who run on achievement points the same way a chain smoker needs nicotine. Lots of games have multiplayer only achievements, usually having a couple achievements like "win 10 matches." For some reason a lot of people view multiplayer achievements as unfair on the developer's part for including them, and will go through whatever means necessary to get these achievements.

Personally I'm a fan of the really difficult to get multiplayer achievements, they mean way more than a gamerscore boosted a thousand points by an Avatar rental.

[jupitersj]

On another note, using a K&M adapter to play online is lame as well. If you want to use those, play on PC. If you want to play single player with them, then fine. Don't use it to own everyone in Halo with super quick headshots that are impossible with a gamepad.


Have you ever even used a K&M adapter on a console? They don't allow "super quick headshots" as you claim. They have to obey the laws of the analog control the same as the controller as the games were designed for a system controller. Infact it can take extensive setup per game because of differences in control between modes(first person, vehicle, etc). Ontop of this many games have joystick acceleration after a few moments causing further aim troubles...

I have used a few over the years because the "Playstation" crowd became programmers and decided that the normal oldschool "southpaw" control should not exist anymore in many games since most mainstream twits calling you n00b in Halo are right-handed. They love to tell you to relearn muscle control with the precision of a Navy Seal in 5 minutes otherwise you're a scrub also. I can plow through single player on hard with right-handed controls after years of practice but I'll be damned if I'm going to gimp myself playing online.

Infact many games with southpaw controls forget to swap zoom and crouch or other such features on the click sticks causing left-handed people the inability to crouch and aim at the same goddamn time because the 1 hour it takes to program in customizable controls and/or toggable controls isn't important enough to the bottom line.

I'll play wherever I please even if it means mingling with the "live" crowd with my ghetto left-hand on a "fake" mouse/kb combo. :guitar:

[G-Boobie]

You mentioned that using turbo controllers does the user no good. You claim they aren't getting better at the game (which is arguable) when they defeat an opponent normally outside of their skill level using these methods. However, they are often getting something that a lot of people feel is really really important (for some reason)... Achievements. Some people compulsively NEED to have every achievement in a game. I know plenty of people who run on achievement points the same way a chain smoker needs nicotine. Lots of games have multiplayer only achievements, usually having a couple achievements like "win 10 matches." For some reason a lot of people view multiplayer achievements as unfair on the developer's part for including them, and will go through whatever means necessary to get these achievements.

Personally I'm a fan of the really difficult to get multiplayer achievements, they mean way more than a gamerscore boosted a thousand points by an Avatar rental.

Last response, since we're simply not going to see eye to eye on this and you broke out the 'achievements' argument.

You play the games in your way, and I'll play in mine. We obviously aren't convincing each other of anything.

[calthaer]

I am clearly in G-Boobie's camp, and therefore I only play online games with friends...largely real-life friends, actually.

I have way more fun that way. There are idiots everywhere; I define leisure time as that part of the day when I don't have to endure their antics.

[Therealqtip]

It's bullshit alright but can you be banned for that?

[kedawa]

I have used a few over the years because the "Playstation" crowd became programmers and decided that the normal oldschool "southpaw" control should not exist anymore in many games since most mainstream twits calling you n00b in Halo are right-handed. They love to tell you to relearn muscle control with the precision of a Navy Seal in 5 minutes otherwise you're a scrub also. I can plow through single player on hard with right-handed controls after years of practice but I'll be damned if I'm going to gimp myself playing online.

Infact many games with southpaw controls forget to swap zoom and crouch or other such features on the click sticks causing left-handed people the inability to crouch and aim at the same goddamn time because the 1 hour it takes to program in customizable controls and/or toggable controls isn't important enough to the bottom line.

I'll play wherever I please even if it means mingling with the "live" crowd with my ghetto left-hand on a "fake" mouse/kb combo. :guitar:
I don't really understand the problem. I'm right handed, and I have no problem using either hand to aim or walk. Maybe it's because I've been playing games long enough to have encountered every conceivable control scheme, but I just don't see how a largely symmetrical controller that you use with both hands could possibly favor right-handedness.
Besides, in console FPS, strafing is as much a part of proper aiming as camera control is.

[unwinddesign]

Have you ever even used a K&M adapter on a console? They don't allow "super quick headshots" as you claim. They have to obey the laws of the analog control the same as the controller as the games were designed for a system controller. Infact it can take extensive setup per game because of differences in control between modes(first person, vehicle, etc). Ontop of this many games have joystick acceleration after a few moments causing further aim troubles...

I have used a few over the years because the "Playstation" crowd became programmers and decided that the normal oldschool "southpaw" control should not exist anymore in many games since most mainstream twits calling you n00b in Halo are right-handed. They love to tell you to relearn muscle control with the precision of a Navy Seal in 5 minutes otherwise you're a scrub also. I can plow through single player on hard with right-handed controls after years of practice but I'll be damned if I'm going to gimp myself playing online.

Infact many games with southpaw controls forget to swap zoom and crouch or other such features on the click sticks causing left-handed people the inability to crouch and aim at the same goddamn time because the 1 hour it takes to program in customizable controls and/or toggable controls isn't important enough to the bottom line.

I'll play wherever I please even if it means mingling with the "live" crowd with my ghetto left-hand on a "fake" mouse/kb combo. :guitar:

I've played people with them. I've used [borrowed] the SmartJoy Frag, and I couldn't get it set up correctly. It's hard as shit to set up in a way that suits you, but if you want to tweak it for a couple hours, you can own people much easier. You can play on like 7 or 8 sensitivity with ease, and yes, that means you can bust out super quick headshots. I've seen it, and it's lame. Perfect? No. Much more precise than a gamepad? Yes. Allows for ungodly ownage in sniping and long range fire? Si.

If they program support into the game for it, fine. Use it online. If it's not programmed in, then keep it offline. Is it cheating? No. Lame? Yes; gamepad v. K&M in an FPS is a total mismatch, even with the keyboard controls slightly gimped. It's pretty much a moot point, since I haven't encountered anyone with a K&M setup on the 360, but whatever.

[jupitersj]

Once again, the smartjoy frag is limited to the controller input. Anything you can do on it can be done on a controller, period. Don't assume when you couldn't even get it setup correctly? Playing on very high hori/vert settings in games that allow it(like Halo) make circle strafing more difficult than on a controller due to analog speedup that kicks in. You'd have this trouble too if you played at higher settings on the official xbox controller of which many players do(sensitivity is learning and choice). If it gave any tangible advantage high level players would stop using controllers; yet it is what they use.

When game designers stop being lazy and doing bare minimum with controller configurations I'll stop using it; online and offline.

[spoon]

@GBoobie- About the Double charge moves. From what I understand, it is possible to store and or charge two charge moves at once on 360. One on the d-pad and one on the control stick. I've never tried it, but, I've heard of it being used. Although not as intended, that could lead to different combos and strategies. Probably be kinda hard to pull off as well.

I do know what you are talking about though. I've played a few players that would only do special moves the entire round and not fuck up. Even tournament players mess up inputs in matches. It was as if the guy had the moves mapped to one button. Like those controllers my friends and I would use back in the day to program Mortal Kombat finishers into.

Also, anyone who wants to play SF on 360 my tag is Spoontoss . My brother is better than I, although I taught him everything he knows. His tag is Trillz 2K .

[G-Boobie]

Well, a popular arcade stick mod has just been made a genuine consumer product. Macro storage up to twenty steps. Can't do a special or super? Why not cheat?

Behold. (http://kotaku.com/5133967/super-ps3-stick-makes-combos-muuuuuuch-easier)

*sigh*.

[Mr Mort]

As far as fighting games go, Turbo and Macro functions are cheating. End of story.
Some combos take very specific and precise timing to pull off, and having one button do all the work for you is cheating, pure and simple. If the makers of the game intended to have macros, they would be an option in the button config menu, would they not?
You're intended to manually enter the commands to get your move/combo/attack to come out. Using turbo or macro functions against an unsuspecting or unwilling opponent is the act of a coward and a lazy slob.

At high level play, turbo and macro functions give you an unfair advantage you were never meant to have, and give you the ability to do things you were not intended to, and that your opponent cannot.

[kedawa]

It may be cheating, but there's not much you can do about it.
It'll always be a part of online gaming, so if it really bothers you that much, just stick to playing with people you trust or play offline.

As far as I'm concerned the only acceptable macros are the simple 3K and 3P macros in Street Fighter, because those button combinations are prohibitively difficult to perform on a pad and the developers clearly know this.

[Graham Mitchell]

Well, a popular arcade stick mod has just been made a genuine consumer product. Macro storage up to twenty steps. Can't do a special or super? Why not cheat?

Behold. (http://kotaku.com/5133967/super-ps3-stick-makes-combos-muuuuuuch-easier)

*sigh*.

This must be why I've never won an online match of SFII Turbo.

[Chainclaw]

Bumping an old topic here, but this is relevant.

The official Street Fighter IV arcade sticks have turbo functionality built in. Considering that these are official product intended for sale alongside the game, would you people then consider it cheating to use turbo in SFIV?

[Oobgarm]

Don't know if I'd call it cheating, but folks can be reported after matches...which I assume will happen to cut down on it.