Do you think a systems limitations can sometimes make games better?

[kupomogli]

This is sortof a logical question as when developers create games they have to actually work around the limitations of a system to make the game work.

I'll give an example of a recent game I've played. Star Wars Battlefront Renegade Squadron based on the other Battlefront titles. Because the PSP doesn't have a second analog stick, they worked around it and made a unique lock on system. While I wouldn't say Renegade Squadron is better than the others, it adds a different style of gameplay than what you'd play otherwise and it's a really good game.

There are other examples, but I've used an obvious one.

I think since this generations systems can do all this stuff they don't try to push what they can do, they do what they know they can do and just end it right there than trying to really get the best gameplay possible.

Wonder what everyone else here thinks?

[Tupin]

I always find it interesting when systems try to bite off more than they can chew and still make a good game, like Dragon's Lair on Gameboy Color.

I also find the demos that developers make that push the system just to push it. Like this GBA demo:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxxX3mXSD8I

[Cambot]

I sort of think that Perfect Dark was asking too much of the N64 when you switched on Hi-Res. But is was still pretty good.

[Cryomancer]

Definately, since it forces the game to get creative sometimes. Games nowadays can do whatever they want, and somehow end up doing the same stuff as everyone else. There are some games that would benefit from extra breathing room, but many of them are simply products of their own limitations and that's what makes them unique.

[Kitsune Sniper]

Yes, sometimes.

If the programmer is a good one then he'll try to trick the system into doing other stuff. Just look at all the stuff that's possible on the old Atari systems! Unfortunately most programmers are lazy these days and don't even bother to apply themselves enough.

[suppafly]

Well the slowdown in a lot of the snes games makes it easier to play......

Just try Gradius 3...its like playing it with a slo mo controller

[Matt-El]

David Crane believes in this. In fact, such is the reason why he won't develop for modern systems. With limitless capacity, how do you strive for perfection?

[Gunface]

So many games these days rely on graphics too much. Picross for DS has totally boring graphics but it's so much fun! Like Cryomancer said, the developers have to get creative to express their idea, whether it's in gameplay or the depiction of something complex using more primitive graphics. That kind of innovation is what helps the industry evolve. I think in the right hands, that system's limitations will yield awesome games.

[swlovinist]

Absolutely. I think that limitations on a system can really push certain developers to go the extra mile to make a game work. A "new example" of this is Moon on the DS. A system not known for its 3D engine is pushed to a limit by having a 60fs game with decent graphics. While older systems did force programmers to be more creative on what a system could do, I would not call programmers these days lazy, it just depends on who is making the game. Some problems with some of todays games is that they are made often of large teams of people, often in which a single person on the team has a very controlled and compartmentalized task with the game.

[2Dskillz]

I think limitations in sound are why we always remember early game themes. Modern games rarely have any kind of music that sticks with you (good job to Little Big Planet in this catagory though)

[grahf!]

I think a lot of games on the DS prove this theory. It can't push that many polygons, so I think a lot of games rely on really detailed textures and artwork. In the end, I think the effect is awesome! Powerful systems that can render everything in 3D usually tend to do so, just because they can. But I personally feel that the more realistic graphics become, the more they start to look like plastic models. Its kind of the same situation as a lot of 3D effects in movies. They look so real.... but you know in your brain something is odd.

[Graham Mitchell]

Some trivia for you...

When Compile developed Gun Nac for the NES/Famicom they put a feature in the options menu that lets you pick whether you want speed to be the priority or whether you want the game to shower you with bullets, regardless of slowdown. I always pick bullets.

[emceelokey]

I don't necessairly think it can make some games batter but with limitations there can be better games. The op's example was taking a game that was on a home console and had to be restructured for the portable systems and that's one thing but that's like saying you have a house made of 100 boards of wood and now you just need to take that and size it down to 80 boards opposed to having 40 boards of wood to work wit in the beginning and you have limitations off the bat to make a house.

What I don't like about not having the limitations of the past is that there is a loss of art direction. It seems like a bunch of games now are just taking real life cities and either doing an exact recreation or just blowing them up and derstoying the landscape (Fallout, Resistance, Fracture... I think) I can probably name a level to any screenshot to the first mega man game but you can give me videos of dozens of first person shooters and I pobably won't be able to make one out.

Speaking of FPS, it seems like that's the modern day equivelant of the platformer so pretty much every company has some money in a FPS project but on the other hand I've spent many more hours on games like Geometry Wars, Puzzle Quest, and a bunch of the DS type of games like Layton or Ace that should be fairly simple to make compared to the FPS' and those few games that though more about how to play a game rather than what they can put into the game graphically. Just those games were more than possible to make 10 years ago. That's what I don't like the most about not having as many limitations.

Also, when the hell is there going to be a new Zoop game?

[roushimsx]

Depends on the dev team. I absolutely love how games like Double Dragon, Bionic Commando and Strider were overhauled and reworked to the NES' hardware limitations, but more often than not less powerful hardware results in crummy, second rate ports or overly ambitious titles that suffer from horrible framerates (Perfect Dark, Goldeneye) and/or tiny levels (Deus Ex: The Invisible War).

[TonyTheTiger]

I don't think that limitations encourage better game development. A good/bad concept is always going to be that. Better hardware allows for a larger variety of concepts, though. There's no way a game like Call of Duty 4 could have been effectively done on the Genesis, for instance.

I do think, however, that when better hardware drops into the laps of development teams sometimes they suffer from what I like to call "let's do it because we can" syndrome. Things like the long winded summon spells in Final Fantasy VIII or the blinding lens flare in Grand Theft Auto: Vice City. They don't destroy the games but they don't particularly help. Granted, these weren't the first times the two series appeared on the respective consoles but it's clear that somebody was tech happy.

[icbrkr]

I'll go with anything in the twilight years of the C64 (1991-1994). The games that came out at the time pushed the hardware harder than they ever should have and I found myself playing all the latest games just to see what they could pull off. I guess they weren't always better, but they did make you wonder how they did that. Today, everything is expected so it's pretty rare that you see an effect that makes you wonder how that is possible.

[ubersaurus]

Of course. Solar Fox comes to mind, on the Atari 2600 vs the Arcade. No gun makes all the difference.

[sidnotcrazy]

I agree!

When the hardware wasn't quite up to par, developers had to go other routes. Take for example Strider for the nes. There is no way the arcade classic could be done. Instead they made a key and lock game, that I feel holds up quite well on its own.

[squirrelnut]

Good topic!

One point of intrest though, if it wasn't for graphical limitations, who knows what mario would have looked like today

[jdc]

I like to take a break every once in a while and play the first two Gran Turismos on my PSX. It's truly amazing how much quality and performance that Polyphony was able to squeeze out of that Playstation. Those games were light years ahead of what the average racing developer was able to do. Codemasters wasn't far behind with TOCA and the first Colin McRae Rally.

Speaking of frustration due to limitations, my friend and I were always wishing that the PSX could give us just a little bit more in the way of storage when we were creating music on the Codemasters MTV Music Generator. Using that program, we did manage to publish an entire album though!!!

[ButtonMasher123]

I think limitations in sound are why we always remember early game themes. Modern games rarely have any kind of music that sticks with you (good job to Little Big Planet in this catagory though)

Agreed, my friends laugh at me when I say the music was better on old games, but its true. The way the music loops over and over in old games gives them a hypnotic feel that gets the music stuck in your head for sure. Even the crappy music gets stuck in your head, lol.

Also the low quality instruments used in old games influenced a certain style of music that wouldn't of happened otherwise.

[roushimsx]

I don't think that limitations encourage better game development. A good/bad concept is always going to be that. Better hardware allows for a larger variety of concepts, though. There's no way a game like Call of Duty 4 could have been effectively done on the Genesis, for instance.

Well I don't think Call of Duty 4 would have been approached the same way on the Genesis. Like, remember when EA released that horrifically awful GBA port of Medal of Honor Underground and everyone was like, "WTF, NIGGAH?" and EA was like, "oh yay lolz sorrz!"? Their followup (Medal of Honor Infiltrator) was a nice top down action game (with a little Operation Wolf thrown in) and managed to work out really dang well. The mobile phone Call of Duty games have taken a pretty similar approach for the most part (including having a dreadful FPS attempt on the ngage).

That said, n-Space did some pretty impressive stuff with the DS versions of Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare and Call of Duty: World at War. Instead of doing halfassed ports of the console and PC versions, they developed unique games that played to the strengths of the DS hardware. Great control and some sickeningly impressive graphics (smooth framerates, too!).

[eskobar]

There are always limitations .... and not necessarily a system's limitations encourage developers to get something better done.

Take for expample the ATARI JAGUAR, the hardware was quite limited and there wasn't more than 2 games that really shined.

Sega saturn was not very limited but required too much knowledge and skill to get something spectacular, too many saturn games are really outstanding; Panzer Saga is a good example.

An excellent and commited developer will do something great in any hardware... shitty ones, always give shit.

[Mobius]

A Retro Gamer "Making Of" article about Alien vs. Predator on the Jaguar mentioned that they originally wanted to do a move-like score for the game's soundtrack. But memory limitations meant they couldn't do it, so they ended up going for a creepy background "soundscape" instead, which made things more tense worked out better.

[Orion Pimpdaddy]

I can't explain why, but I enjoy listening to the music in Sega Genesis games. Even though the SNES kills it, technologically, in the sound department, there's something about the bass in the Genesis games. They have a common flavor, almost like a form of art.

Well, I'm not sure if this makes sense.

[Graham Mitchell]

I can't explain why, but I enjoy listening to the music in Sega Genesis games. Even though the SNES kills it, technologically, in the sound department, there's something about the bass in the Genesis games. They have a common flavor, almost like a form of art.

Well, I'm not sure if this makes sense.

Well, the sound in the Genesis comes from an FM Synthesis chip. If you go back and listen to a lot of pop from the late '80s and early '90s, you'll hear some songs that actually sound like a Genesis game. Examples--"Dressed in Black" by Depeche Mode, "How Can You Expect to be Taken Seriously" by the Pet Shop Boys, "The Ballad of Dorothy Parker" by Prince. Hell even "Ivo" by the Cocteau Twins has chimes that sound like they came right out of Phantasy Star III. I think the reason for this is that a lot of commercial high-end synthesizers around that time were probably using a very similar FM chip--probably a more expanded one, mind you, but still similar.

On the other hand, while the SNES did use wavetable synthesis for its sound chip, there were a lot of games that just abused it and it ends up sounding fake and even ridiculous at times. (Ever played Syndicate or Ultima 6 on the SNES? Yuk. Cover your ears if you do.)
But, for every game like that there was something like Zelda: ALTTP or Super Metroid, which just blew the doors wide open on using sound effectively to enhance a game. (Remember the first time you heard the rain pounding on the roof at the beginning of Zelda? Pretty cool for the time.)

[rpepper9]

Yes, sometimes.

If the programmer is a good one then he'll try to trick the system into doing other stuff. Just look at all the stuff that's possible on the old Atari systems! Unfortunately most programmers are lazy these days and don't even bother to apply themselves enough.

I wouldn't say that they are lazy, I think the VG business is so competitive, that it doesn't pay to make the best game on the system, it pays to get the games out and on time. Games seem to be Quantity over Quality.

Why put all the polish on your games, max out the system, and only release 2 games a year, when you could make games that are status quo, and put out 10 games a year? All come down to the monies!

[TheGam3r]

Look at most of the console games that were ported GB/GBC/GBA/DS and you will see that these games were also good on the portables:

-Tony Hawks pro skater 2,3,4
-Call of duty 4 And world at war (DS)
-Tony Hawks underground (GBA)
-Doom (GBA)
-The Simpsons Game (DS) Great cutscenes for The DS Version
-Dragons Lair (GBC)
-Tetris (GB)
-Dr Mario (GB)

See how these Games are also good on portables

[Lady Jaye]

Isometric Tony Hawk games are unplayable...

[tom]

I always liked Star Wars on original GB, better than the big brother console versions

[Iron Draggon]

I miss the days when polish was preferred over gloss... if that makes sense... some developers were simply artistically driven to produce games that outshined everything else, which is how alot of modern developers became famous, but either it all went to their heads or publishers are stifling the industry's true creativity... in the old days, all games were art, but nowadays most games are junk art, which is a term my artist cousin uses to describe the difference between her art and her commercial art... she hates her commercial art, but it pays her bills and allows her to create her personal art... a luxury that most developers lack these days... they really have allowed themselves to become whores for the publishers... so they don't have the priviledge of producing games independently without sacrificing their ability to pay all their bills... and that's why they all just churn out sequels

hopefully the new trend among emerging developers and new approaches to publishing their work will help make all games art again, but first somebody is gonna have to bitch slap EA and their ilk, or it's just gonna get even worse... I think this is why I prefer retro games over modern games now... the former were amazingly artistic, but the latter are usually just amazingly technical... there's art for art's sake, and then there's art for the masses... and that's what we have now... eye candy to entice little boys and girls to buy whores

oh and that lens flare thing, in the right context, it works, but in the wrong context, it suspends my disbelief of reality, and ruins the immersion for me... it makes sense in racing games, when you're driving into the sun, but that's about it... the rest of the time it's like WTF? am I looking through any glass? if you are, like looking out a window, that's fine, but otherwise it should be understood that your character is wearing glasses, and that's causing it!

maybe this is part of why I prefer the Wii over the other modern consoles now too... since it's far more underpowered than the XBOX360 & PS3, it has more of a retro appeal for me... it's a modern system, and yet its games harken back to the previous generation of Gamecube, XBOX, & PS2, which I largely missed out on due to my inability to collect for all of those systems while still collecting for all my other retro systems... so it's a chance to go back and check out all the Gamecube games that I missed out on, now with new controls even, and enjoy some of the rest of what that generation had to offer, since otherwise I can only play PC ports of XBOX & PS2 games, or resort to emulation, which I don't like doing if I don't own the original ROM... I'll still do it, just out of curiosity, but I don't like it, so I usually avoid it... so far I've only briefly checked out Phantasy Star on an SMS emulator, that's it

I really enjoyed collecting for the GBA, and would like to get into collecting for the DS, but I've fallen way behind on that now, and a DS is still $130... not too bad, but not too good either... I thought $80 for a GBA was a bit steep, but it wasn't too steep... however, going over $100 was a bad idea for a handheld... it sets up a mental block in alot of people's minds that prevents them from being able to see how they could ever afford it... I know I spend alot more than that on games, but that's games, and that's the point... over $100 will buy alot of games, vs buying just one system that you'll be spending $100's on games for it as well? it becomes very hard to justify such things when you're already $100's behind in new releases for systems that you already own... I'm getting alot closer to being able to afford it now that I'm wrapping up most of my retro collecting, but I still have the Wii & PC to collect for now, so adding a DS wouldn't make it any easier... although it is very tempting, since Wii & DS games are mating with each other like the Gamecube and GBA did now... but I'd really rather have a Gamecube and a GBA Player for it, just so I could play all my GBA games on a big screen... I wish they'd make a GBA & DS player for the Wii or something!

I know I'm rambling a bit, but it does seem that limitations do enhance some developer's creativity alot more than they restrict it... for example, I loved some of the GBA ports that were unique to the GBA, but still held up on their own and didn't disgrace the series... and that was because they were simply ingenious... they played to the GBA's strengths, and overshadowed its weaknesses... so they were great games that harkened back to the glory days of gaming... ever notice how Nintendo systems ahead of their time don't do as well as Nintendo systems behind the times? does that make any sense? the VB, N64, and Gamecube were ahead of their time, but they didn't do as well as the GBA, DS, and Wii... their truly portable handhelds always do well because as advanced as they are, they still harken back to the generation before them, and now they're doing the same thing with the Wii... I think that's a huge part of why it's doing so well... there's alot to be said for backwards compatibility and downloadable retro content... gamers tend to cling to the past, despite generally pushing ahead into the future, which is also why there's so many sequels nowadays... it's all new, and yet it feels old and familiar, which is alot more appealing than gaming in an uncertain future... that's why even the consoles themselves are sequels now... the industry wants us to remain nostalgic, while pushing us ahead just enough to keep us buying all their products... so those who do the best at exploiting that will be the ones who do the best in the system wars... modern retro is king... be new, yet old and familiar... harken back to generations past, and succeed in a new generation... that's when creativity shines its brightest

[Pezcore343]

Well, the sound in the Genesis comes from an FM Synthesis chip. If you go back and listen to a lot of pop from the late '80s and early '90s, you'll hear some songs that actually sound like a Genesis game. Examples--"Dressed in Black" by Depeche Mode, "How Can You Expect to be Taken Seriously" by the Pet Shop Boys, "The Ballad of Dorothy Parker" by Prince. Hell even "Ivo" by the Cocteau Twins has chimes that sound like they came right out of Phantasy Star III. I think the reason for this is that a lot of commercial high-end synthesizers around that time were probably using a very similar FM chip--probably a more expanded one, mind you, but still similar.

I was just about to mention the Genesis's sound capabilities. I remember reading a while ago that the inspiration for Toejam and Earl and the music in it was based on the ability of the Genesis to play very funk-styled music because of its sound chip. While things like explosions might have sounded kinda crappy on the Genny, TJ and E and definitely Panic on Funkotron never would have had that same soul to it otherwise. As a side note, I still have the theme song to Panic on Funkotron on my Zune.