How Can I Win This Paypal dispute?

[Sph1nx]

Ok, so I sold some old Magic The Gather cards I had lying around online. A couple of them sold to the same bidder for around $45.00.

Unfortunately, I did not offer insurance in the auction (an oversight by me) but it does state no insurance is offered. They shipped via regular lettermail, so tracking wasn't even an option.

A week after they've sent I get an email asking why they haven't shown up even though it's been three week (despite the fact it's actually been under two weeks). I told them when they shipped and never heard a reply.

Today (around three weeks since sale) I get a Paypal email stating that he opened a dispute.

Since he never bothered to email before opening one, I decided to take a look at his feedback. Dispute his high positive feedback I can find a good 10-20 references that he claims things have never arrived within the past six months.

So, my guess is he actually got them but I have no way to prove it.

Is there any possible way I can win this and not lose my money?

[Sph1nx]

Just read his feedback left for other. It looks that in just about every auction for these type of cards he decides to claim he never got them and leaves negative feddback. Looks worse than I though and a more common tactic too.

[c0ldb33r]

I doubt it. Paypal will side with him unless you can prove otherwise - which really isn't fair :(

[megasdkirby]

Yeah, you pretty much lost the case, unfortunately. :(

I suggest sending it in a way you can always add tracking (Delivery Confirmation). Even if it's in a slightly larger envelope protected with cardboard...SOMETHING to be able to add DC onto a package.

[Bratwurst]

Consider this a lesson learned.. always use some form of tracking in a Paypal transaction.

[Sniderman]

I use Delivery Confirmation for Every. Paypal. Transaction. I don't care if it's 50 cents or $100. Without it, you will lose the dispute. Period. Consider this a lesson learned.

[ryborg]

I doubt it. Paypal will side with him unless you can prove otherwise - which really isn't fair :(

Come on, we should all know by now that Paypal's motto is "Guilty until proven innocent."

I noticed you're located in Canada. A lot of bidders target auctions like yours because they know the cost of tracking will be too much, so they pay, receive the item, click the mouse twice, and blammo free money and free item and there's absolutely nothing the seller can do at that point.

Paypal has taken zero steps to stop scam artists like this, so unfortunately, the only recourse is to use tracking/delivery confirmation for EVERY transaction that you don't feel safe risking.

[Joe West]

you better take your money out of your paypal account, paypal mite freeze it until its resolved

[c0ldb33r]

I noticed you're located in Canada. A lot of bidders target auctions like yours because they know the cost of tracking will be too much, so they pay, receive the item, click the mouse twice, and blammo free money and free item and there's absolutely nothing the seller can do at that point.
Yeah that's why I never sell shit online, just buy (for the most part). The border is slow and people will blame me for it. Not worth it. I will sell to people that I "know" online (like fellow DPers), but not auctions. Screw that.

Sph1nx, as was said, your only choice is to remove your money from your PP account ASAP or they'll nab it.

[Cornelius]

It is too late to withdraw your funds, I'm sorry to say. They freeze the funds as soon as the dispute is filed, at least according to their 'user agreement'. I would probable compile the list you have of complaints for this same MO and shoot that off to Paypal and eBay. I don't think you'll win your case, but you might help someone else down the line.

[Sph1nx]

I figured this was the case. As for money, PP will take you into the neagive if the have to and unless you update your account it can get sent to a collections agency.

I knew from the get go that I would most liekly lose this, but I was wondering if anyone has any expereicne with this when they're obviosuly being scammed. Looks like I'll collect as much information as possible and email other sellers and include this in the dispute center and hope for the best.

[atreyu187]

Had the same thing just happen to me around Thanksgiving and had a chargreback and funny enough the games I sold actually came back to me abou ttwo days ago. Little late but better than never.

[jb143]

Unfortunately, I did not offer insurance in the auction (an oversight by me) but it does state no insurance is offered. They shipped via regular lettermail, so tracking wasn't even an option.


It's kind of funny that Ebay sets up insurance as though it's for the buyer but the only person insurance protects is the seller. Paypal works as the buyers insurance and will almost always side with them in cases like this. If this is the only time something like this happened consider yourself lucky. It's really not a whole lot different than if you owned a brick and mortar store and had been shoplifted. You just count your losses, learn from it, and move on. Hmmm...I wonder if losses due to being scammed are tax deductable?

[Videogamerdaryll]

When if questioned about a shipped package..

I provide the buyer with a picture of the package,picture of the postal reciept and tracking number,..insurance slip if offered.

[JohnnyA]

When if questioned about a shipped package..

I provide the buyer with a picture of the package,picture of the postal reciept and tracking number,..insurance slip if offered.

You need to have proof of delivery, so no, that won't be good enough.

[ryborg]

It's kind of funny that Ebay sets up insurance as though it's for the buyer but the only person insurance protects is the seller.

Yep. Before ebay became mainstream, and before Paypal's existence, that's simply how insurance worked. As a buyer, if you wanted to be absolutely covered, you'd buy insurance, and if you didn't and something went wrong, most buyers shrugged it off as their fault. When I started selling in '98, a few packages never arrived (two overseas), and the buyers even admitted they were partially to blame for not purchasing insurance.

Now, absolutely, yeah, insurance is only for the seller. I still offer it on every item I sell, but there are very few takers. I purchase insurance myself for expensive items I ship out, mostly for those going to fishy locations like huge apartment complexes.

[backguard]

The best way to "win" this dispute may not be to try to win it at all. From the looks of things, you didn't comply to the letter with paypal's seller protection policies. They will automatically reject your claim based on that. It won't be subject to review because this is basically an automated process.

BUT your second, and probably best option, is to talk with paypal directly, let them know that you sent it, have been a good seller, haven't had problems like this before etc. etc. etc. Your goal is to convince some customer service person to be nice and give you a credit. It may take a few tries with different customer service reps, but eventually you should find someone who will be sympathetic and send you a credit.

You can always try a variety of approaches too, from the nice user to the really p'd off user who threatens not to use paypal again. Someone will listen to you if you are persistent.

[Daft Punk]

I use Delivery Confirmation for Every. Paypal. Transaction. I don't care if it's 50 cents or $100. Without it, you will lose the dispute. Period. Consider this a lesson learned.

Snider is 100% correct on this one. With PayPal's screwy policy's you will loose since there is no tracking info . You can always try and show them that he has a feedback history of doing this,but you probably wont have much luck.

[Sph1nx]

After posting a nice message to Paypal refrenceing all the auctions where there have been prevous issues, I get this:

"He has been sending me multiple messages threatening me and is now contacting sellers i have dealt with via my feedback, which according to Ebay is a violation and will result in account suspension. Look at the message he sent on this forum, he admitted he has been doing this"

Now the first part it obviously a lie, the only message I sent was a sob story about how I needed the money - suprise he could have cared less.

Can I really get suspended though for asking other sellers about their issues with him?

[megasdkirby]

Wait, you mean this forum? DP?

If so, I would love to see who it is...

[Sph1nx]

No through PP, it's actually not a video game related item.