DRM Shuts Down PC Version of Gears of War [Slashdot]

[DP ServBot]

carlmenezes writes "It seems that the DRM on the PC version of Gears of War came with a built-in shut-off date; the digital certificate for the game was only good until January 28, 2009. Now, the game fails to work unless you adjust your system's clock. What is Epic's response? 'We're working on it.'"http://games.slashdot.org/slashdot-it.pl?from=rss&op=image&style=h0&sid=09/01/30/0556251 (http://games.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/01/30/0556251&from=rss)
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[Nebagram]

This is the single most retarded gaming-related thing I have heard all frickin' decade. 'How to cripple sales of GoW2 PC before it's even released.'

[heybtbm]

This is the single most retarded gaming-related thing I have heard all frickin' decade. 'How to cripple sales of GoW2 PC before it's even released.'

GoW2 isn't coming out on PC, but your point still stands. This is why media-based PC gaming will be extinct in the very near future.

[demen999]

Well that went well for GoW. I still think PC gaming has some time left, but they keep shortening its time with more crap like this.

[exit]

It's reasons like this that people decide to pirate in the first place.

[TonyTheTiger]

This isn't going to kill PC gaming. But I do think this is the beginning of the end for DRM. DRM has gone from just an ordinary bad idea to completely batshit insane. At this point, nobody anywhere can sanely conclude that DRM prevents piracy. It outright encourages it.

[Sabz5150]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA!!!!!!! !!!

...breathe...

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAH AAAA!!!!!

Okay, okay, I'm do-- HAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!

So, DRM supporters... developers... publishers... is THIS what you expect us to pay for?

[Fuyukaze]

This is the reason to pirate. For years people have tried using every single crappy excuse and finaly, one has been provided. Thanks Epic, your failure to appreciate your customer has finaly given justice to those who never would have supported you in the first place. Screwed over everyone who did but that didnt matter aparently.

[GM80]

Best comment read on the web:

"Of course, the pirated copies are still working."

[skaar]

hahahahaha
http://foreveranoob.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/brilliant.jpg
BRILLIANT!

[Sabz5150]

http://www.roflronjon.net/images/Other/drm.jpg

[Oobgarm]

That picture is fail, we're not getting a reacharound.

[Sabz5150]

That picture is fail, we're not getting a reacharound.

The pirates are :)


EDIT: Fine, how's this :D

http://www.enginevoodoo.com/images/drm-iq.jpg

[Ze_ro]

It's crap like this that makes me stick with console games. Playing games on computers is just a giant mess these days.

The sad thing is, consoles aren't much respite these days... crap like this (http://www.xbox.com/en-US/support/systemuse/xbox360/licensemigration/) should never have been necessary in the first place :(

--Zero

[Push Upstairs]

Like I needed another reason to hate DRM.

I won't pirate games with DRM, but I won't buy them either.

[MarioMania]

What's DRM??

[Sabz5150]

What's DRM??

A way for developers to squeeze more money from the consumer by controlling when, where and for how long you play your video games under the guise of stopping piracy.

It's similar to buying a car and finding out that it comes with a person that drives it for you and has the ability to refuse to take you somewhere because the manufacturer thinks you'll commit a crime with the car since so many other crimes involved cars.

[The 1 2 P]

It's similar to buying a car and finding out that it comes with a person that drives it for you and has the ability to refuse to take you somewhere because the manufacturer thinks you'll commit a crime with the car since so many other crimes involved cars.

You mean like a chauffer?

Although this sucks for pc gamers, they seem to be getting less and less titles these days anyway. I suppose people say that every year, but Gears of War 2 and Halo Wars are definitely not coming to the pc. Oh, neither is Mortal Kombat Vs DC(not that anyone cares about that last one). But from an outsider who doesn't game on his pc, I think that the developers need to treat their pc customers better with the games they actually "do" release.

[Sabz5150]

You mean like a chauffer?

A chauffer takes me where I tell him to or I fire his ass. DRM Driver just laughs at me and floors it into oncoming traffic.

I can choose to have a chauffer. DRM Driver is there regardless if I want a chauffer or want to take the wheel myself.

[TonyTheTiger]

Good thing the protection is unsophisticated enough that changing the system clock works. This still obviously sucks for people with the PC version of Gears of War but there is a silver lining here. Before this event, it was relatively easy (though still a stretch) for people to brush off the criticisms of DRM and defend the measure by saying "Well, piracy is still a problem and who needs to install the game on so many computers anyway?" But now there is rock solid proof that while anti-piracy measures can be legitimate, DRM is the most ass backwards way to do it.

DRM is on its way out. This will be the last straw for even the most tolerant consumers. While it's conceivable that a person could deal with installing the game on just one computer and fumbling with online confirmations and the like, once you tell them that at X point in time their game will actually stop working, the world will look very different.

[walrusmonger]

If scumbags didn't pirate in the first place we wouldn't need DRM. Yes, I said it- scumbags. People work hard making the games, anyone who downloads them sucks.

<flamesuit on>

I don't really mind DRM- I own GoW on the PC and this doesn't bother me- crap happens, I'm sure there will be a fix for it sometime in the near future.

The worst pirates are the ones that say, "I wasn't going to buy it anyway, so they're not really losing a sale!" Jesus, if you weren't going to buy it.. why the hell are you downloading it? If you want it, pay for it.

</offtopic>

I do agree that this is stupid, but it's not the end of the world. Ok, sorry guys, post is done :)

[Sabz5150]

If scumbags didn't pirate in the first place we wouldn't need DRM. Yes, I said it- scumbags. People work hard making the games, anyone who downloads them sucks.

<flamesuit on>

I don't really mind DRM- I own GoW on the PC and this doesn't bother me- crap happens, I'm sure there will be a fix for it sometime in the near future.

The worst pirates are the ones that say, "I wasn't going to buy it anyway, so they're not really losing a sale!" Jesus, if you weren't going to buy it.. why the hell are you downloading it? If you want it, pay for it.

</offtopic>

I do agree that this is stupid, but it's not the end of the world. Ok, sorry guys, post is done :)

For those of us who DO put our money on the table, the fact that this happens makes the developers and publishers look like the scumbags.

I don't pay for a car that doesn't start unless GM says so. I don't pay for a toilet that doesn't flush unless American Standard says so. I don't pay for a PC that won't turn on unless Averatec says so.

I don't pay for a game that doesn't play unless $DEVELOPER says so. If this kind of shit is pulled, either you give me my money back and stick your game where only good health insurance will remove it, or I crack your game and show everyone else how NOT to deal with your crap.

The people that LEGALLY PURCHASED THIS GAME are being screwed, and given the "Oh we'll fix it." schpeel. I don't care if I can set my clock to fix it, that is NOT why I buy a game! I buy a game to play it, not jump through hoops in hopes that the gods on high will grant me the permission to play it.

I do not pirate, however for the developers who pull these stunts: I do not pity you, and I will dance around the flames of your failed work and piss on the ashes with a smile on my face. YOU are stealing MY money by not providing the goods and services I paid for, and I will treat you as the criminal you are.

Good thing you had a flamesuit on. /rant

[roushimsx]

This is why one of the first things I do after I install a game is crack it. DRM only hurts legitimate users.

There's some DRM that I can handle better than others. Valve's copy protection (via Steam) is actually pretty damn acceptable to me. Very non-intrusive and the Steam platform actually adds a couple of layers of convenience (I can download and play my game anywhere I feel comfortable logging into Steam).

Good ol' Games has pretty much the best of both worlds, though. Good old games with no DRM, unlimited downloads and tons of bonus materials? Fuck yea.

[Gameguy]

I kind of find it ironic that the company's name is Epic. It just seems right to call this an Epic failure. LOL

Piracy is just a part of doing business, it will never go away entirely. Just accept it and move on, rather than waste money and time creating this crap that doesn't work anyway.

It's really not just games and software that are like this, it's time to accept it as a part of business and find a way to work with it.
http://www.wired.com/techbiz/it/magazine/16-03/ff_free?currentPage=all


"Freemium"
What's free: Web software and services, some content. Free to whom: users of the basic version.

This term, coined by venture capitalist Fred Wilson, is the basis of the subscription model of media and is one of the most common Web business models. It can take a range of forms: varying tiers of content, from free to expensive, or a premium "pro" version of some site or software with more features than the free version (think Flickr and the $25-a-year Flickr Pro).

Again, this sounds familiar. Isn't it just the free sample model found everywhere from perfume counters to street corners? Yes, but with a pretty significant twist. The traditional free sample is the promotional candy bar handout or the diapers mailed to a new mother. Since these samples have real costs, the manufacturer gives away only a tiny quantity — hoping to hook consumers and stimulate demand for many more.
Photo Illustration: Jeff Mermelstein

But for digital products, this ratio of free to paid is reversed. A typical online site follows the 1 Percent Rule — 1 percent of users support all the rest. In the freemium model, that means for every user who pays for the premium version of the site, 99 others get the basic free version. The reason this works is that the cost of serving the 99 percent is close enough to zero to call it nothing.

Advertising
What's free: content, services, software, and more. Free to whom: everyone.

Broadcast commercials and print display ads have given way to a blizzard of new Web-based ad formats: Yahoo's pay-per-pageview banners, Google's pay-per-click text ads, Amazon's pay-per-transaction "affiliate ads," and site sponsorships were just the start. Then came the next wave: paid inclusion in search results, paid listing in information services, and lead generation, where a third party pays for the names of people interested in a certain subject. Now companies are trying everything from product placement (PayPerPost) to pay-per-connection on social networks like Facebook. All of these approaches are based on the principle that free offerings build audiences with distinct interests and expressed needs that advertisers will pay to reach.




And allowing some things for free on the internet can increase sales. Seriously.

Free Monty Python Videos on Youtube Lead to 23,000% DVD Sale Increase
http://www.slashfilm.com/2009/01/23/free-monty-python-videos-on-youtube-lead-to-23000-dvd-sale-increase/

[ProgrammingAce]

I don't pay for a game that doesn't play unless $DEVELOPER says so. If this kind of shit is pulled, either you give me my money back and stick your game where only good health insurance will remove it, or I crack your game and show everyone else how NOT to deal with your crap.

Or you could... i dunno... Not play games which use copy protections you don't agree with.

You have 3 option. Buy the game, pirate the game, or don't play the game at all.

If you buy the game, you show the publishers you are fine with the copy protection system they're using, and they're free to keep using it.

If you pirate the game, the developers are going to keep licensing harsher DRM schemes to try and stop you. In which case, you're just making it worse for yourself. Unfortunately this path requires a sacrifice on your part.

If you don't buy it or pirate it, publishers will start to see that they need to make drastic changes in how they treat their customers.

" A strange game. The only winning move is not to play. How about a nice game of chess?"

[Sabz5150]

Or you could... i dunno... Not play games which use copy protections you don't agree with.

Show me ANY modern system that does not include some sort of copy protection.


You have 3 option. Buy the game, pirate the game, or don't play the game at all.

Or crack it and get the product I paid for.


If you buy the game, you show the publishers you are fine with the copy protection system they're using, and they're free to keep using it.

That doesn't change their ways.


If you pirate the game, the developers are going to keep licensing harsher DRM schemes to try and stop you. In which case, you're just making it worse for yourself. Unfortunately this path requires a sacrifice on your part.

I. DO. NOT. PIRATE. That is the antithesis of this hobby.


If you don't buy it or pirate it, publishers will start to see that they need to make drastic changes in how they treat their customers.

Or they will be horribly embarrassed by things like this and show the community where their true allegiances lie.


" A strange game. The only winning move is not to play. How about a nice game of chess?"

"The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will slip through your fingers."

Answer this ONE question: Why are the people who LEGALLY PURCHASED this game not allowed to play it? I don't want this "there's a workaround", I want to know why this developer is stealing money from the consumer by not allowing them to play the game they LEGALLY PURCHASED. The pirated and cracked versions are unaffected, so why are the ones that kept their nose clean the ONLY ones that are harmed?

[ProgrammingAce]

Answer this ONE question: Why are the people who LEGALLY PURCHASED this game not allowed to play it? I don't want this "there's a workaround", I want to know why this developer is stealing money from the consumer by not allowing them to play the game they LEGALLY PURCHASED. The pirated and cracked versions are unaffected, so why are the ones that kept their nose clean the ONLY ones that are harmed?

The publisher is a douchebag and you should punish them by not buying, or playing, any of their products anymore.

As for the "Why", i'm not actually convinced it has anything to do with DRM. Your digital rights aren't being managed here, Microsoft's certificate expired and they forgot to renew it. I'm guessing the certificate has nothing to do with the DRM engine, more likely it has to do with the anti-cheating protection. End result is the same though.


Show me ANY modern system that does not include some sort of copy protection.

There aren't any. Which either means, you can enjoy not being able to use the things you buy, or you can do something about it by boycotting the product.




I. DO. NOT. PIRATE. That is the antithesis of this hobby.

But you do apply cracks to the games you buy, which makes you part of the problem. You continue to buy the things they sell, even though you don't like the product. Why should they change if they're still getting your money?




Or they will be horribly embarrassed by things like this and show the community where their true allegiances lie.

Their true allegiance is not to their customers, that's pretty much a given.

[Iron Draggon]

and they wonder why people are concerned that they may not be able to play the games they paid for someday, after the developer has finally gone bankrupt due to their bullshit policies of screwing over their customers with things like DRM? this is why... what if this happened and there was no one left at the company to tell everyone that all they have to do is roll back their clocks? not everyone knows that's an old trick for extending your use of DRM licensed software... I used to do it to avoid paying for the newest version of Norton, until I could afford to buy it... until they made doing that impossible, and then I started using Windows Live One Care... interesting that next I'll be using One Care software for free, cause MS is discontinuing their One Care licensing... perhaps this is another good sign that DRM is on its way out... I hope they follow critics advice to make Windows 7 free too... it should be free... people are starting to call it Windows Fixta now... that says alot... the evidence against DRM and draconian policies for selling software is mounting

[Sonicwolf]

If scumbags didn't pirate in the first place we wouldn't need DRM. Yes, I said it- scumbags. People work hard making the games, anyone who downloads them sucks.

I agree, but what about games that are no longer on sale and are getting harder and harder to find? Lots of old computer games are outsourced from the shelves to the bargain bins and the back room quickly. Are you saying that, say, if I wanted to play Empire Earth or Jedi Academy, I would have to just sit and wait for the random chance to purchase it? There are lots of games I would love to buy that are no where to be found. I dont believe it is fair to expect everyone to dive into the overpriced retroinflated center of commerce called eBay if they want to play a hard to find, older computer game.

[walrusmonger]

I agree, but what about games that are no longer on sale and are getting harder and harder to find? Lots of old computer games are outsourced from the shelves to the bargain bins and the back room quickly. Are you saying that, say, if I wanted to play Empire Earth or Jedi Academy, I would have to just sit and wait for the random chance to purchase it? There are lots of games I would love to buy that are no where to be found. I dont believe it is fair to expect everyone to dive into the overpriced retroinflated center of commerce called eBay if they want to play a hard to find, older computer game.

If the game is old and not for sale, that is a different story- while I would personally buy a legit copy from ebay, my feelings are not the same towards those who pirate these games.
If you can't buy the game new at a store, or download it from the maker's sites, then they are not really losing out on a sale. If you can only buy the game used, they are not losing out on a sale.

The problem is that pirates don't pirate old stuff that doesn't get sold retail anymore, they pirate stuff that hasn't even hit the market- this is why there are DRM lockdowns now.

[Sonicwolf]

If the game is old and not for sale, that is a different story- while I would personally buy a legit copy from ebay, my feelings are not the same towards those who pirate these games.
If you can't buy the game new at a store, or download it from the maker's sites, then they are not really losing out on a sale. If you can only buy the game used, they are not losing out on a sale.

The problem is that pirates don't pirate old stuff that doesn't get sold retail anymore, they pirate stuff that hasn't even hit the market- this is why there are DRM lockdowns now.

The funny thing is that by putting harsh DRM in new games, they are eliminating the ability to properly play or buy these games in the near or distant future. Games like Spore arent really even rentable or resellable.

[Sabz5150]

The publisher is a douchebag and you should punish them by not buying, or playing, any of their products anymore.

Or driving them out of business. Any means necessary. I do it by not buying the product. Others pirate. Different means, same result. I could care less either way.


As for the "Why", i'm not actually convinced it has anything to do with DRM. Your digital rights aren't being managed here, Microsoft's certificate expired and they forgot to renew it. I'm guessing the certificate has nothing to do with the DRM engine, more likely it has to do with the anti-cheating protection. End result is the same though.

Why are the people not allowed to play a game they legally purchased? It's a simple question. Is it because of something the user did or is it because of the DRM mechanism?

Why did the game cease to work? Looks like the DRM mechanism is at fault. Again, why are you stealing my money? I paid for this game, you are now obligated to allow me to play it. Or are you about to violate your own EULA?


There aren't any. Which either means, you can enjoy not being able to use the things you buy, or you can do something about it by boycotting the product.

Or I can do what I please with the product I paid for. You cannot tell me what to do with what I own.


But you do apply cracks to the games you buy, which makes you part of the problem. You continue to buy the things they sell, even though you don't like the product. Why should they change if they're still getting your money?

No, I am part of the solution. If I owned GoW, my copy would still work. If I pass my method on to others who have purchased the game legally, they then have the solution to the problem. "We're working on it" is NOT a solution.

The only people harmed here are the ones that did everything the way you wanted. That's a lesson they will not soon forget, and one you shouldn't either.

Those that do not have that solution will either get it and/or never buy your product again.


Their true allegiance is not to their customers, that's pretty much a given.

Not everyone is that way. Just because your blood has been tainted by the Redmond beast does NOT mean all companies are like that. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

The more this happens, the more money you will lose. So much the better.

[Gameguy]

The funny thing is that by putting harsh DRM in new games, they are eliminating the ability to properly play or buy these games in the near or distant future. Games like Spore arent really even rentable or resellable.
That's another reason why they're doing this, they don't like their games being sold second hand as they would lose sales(in theory). Companies may start renting their games to people instead of selling them, like you'll need a subscription to them to keep playing the game(even if it's a single player game). Maybe a subscription to be able to play any of their games whenever you want, but if you stop paying for the subscription you can't play them anymore. Kind of like cable TV. Another way to keep getting more money from a product.


http://img299.imageshack.us/img299/4870/stealthiscomicck6.png

[ProgrammingAce]

Why are the people not allowed to play a game they legally purchased? It's a simple question. Is it because of something the user did or is it because of the DRM mechanism?

They purchased a product designed to stop them from enjoying it. I have no sympathy when it works as advertised. Which is why i recommend against purchasing PC games.



Why did the game cease to work? Looks like the DRM mechanism is at fault. Again, why are you stealing my money? I paid for this game, you are now obligated to allow me to play it. Or are you about to violate your own EULA?

EULA says i can wipe all of the files off your hard drive, and you're not allowed to sue me for it. It's unlikely an EULA would stand up in court on it's own, it doesn't appear to be a legally binding contract.

Once again, i suggest not buying from companies who use it as a defense mechanism.




Or I can do what I please with the product I paid for. You cannot tell me what to do with what I own.

Sure i can, it's called DRM. And if you try to bypass it, you're breaking the law. And if the publisher doesn't like you for whatever reason, they could prosecute you for it.

Personally, i write a letter to my congresscritters every 6 months asking that the modify the DMCA. What have you done to help put an end to this madness?





The only people harmed here are the ones that did everything the way you wanted. That's a lesson they will not soon forget, and one you shouldn't either.

Those that do not have that solution will either get it and/or never buy your product again.


I'm in complete agreement. Notice i'm recommending people not buy products that use DRM?




Not everyone is that way. Just because your blood has been tainted by the Redmond beast does NOT mean all companies are like that. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

The more this happens, the more money you will lose. So much the better.

In this economy, any company that doesn't strive to make a profit will soon go out of business. Venture capitol only lasts for so long...

[chicnstu]

Epic needs to get themselves straightened out. Glitchy engine, 10 minute matchmaking in GoW2, and now this.

All of those are a few of the reasons that when I'm done with school, even though they are right here in North Carolina, I won't apply for a job there.

[TonyTheTiger]

DRM does not and will not ever help the developer. It isn't "copy protection" in the traditional sense.

Case in point: Actual copy protection. Nobody complains that developers and publishers put in protections that restrict end users from renting/borrowing a game, putting it in a computer, and burning a functional copy. There are of course ways around that but nobody is complaining about having to jump through that hoop. The reason is because it doesn't hinder the experience for people who actually do purchase the product. Most sane people understand, expect, and outright condone companies protecting their interest in digital media.

Another example is something like downloadable content that requires a legitimate copy. Most of the time, if you want the extras you have to actually own the game. This does not hinder people who buy the game. It punishes pirates but does not hurt the customers.

DRM is different. It does not punish pirates. It doesn't hurt pirates one bit. It does, however, hinder people who actually put down the money for the real thing. It's backwards. You can argue piracy this, piracy that all day long but the end result of all of this is that the pirated copies of Gears of War still work and the legitimate ones don't without manipulating the system clock. I'm all for anti-piracy measures. DRM is not one. It's something different. It was thought to be anti-piracy at first but it's become plainly obvious that it does not work. How can anything that encourages legitimate customers to seek out exploits be called "anti-piracy" with a straight face? There are better options out there.

[Nikademus1969]

If we're not supposed to buy PC games that have DRM...that's fine. But, the flip side to that is that companies will take that as a sign that PC gaming is "dying" because no one is buying the games since most all of the high profile games have DRM of some sort. I sometimes wonder if the companies are maybe using DRM as an excuse to ditch the PC as a gaming platform?

[rbudrick]

With DRM, first I was like :grrr:,and then I was like ROFL.

-Rob

[robotriot]

Very non-intrusive and the Steam platform actually adds a couple of layers of convenience (I can download and play my game anywhere I feel comfortable logging into Steam).


Not if you're behind a firewall. And then there's the problem that a lot of apps won't start if you haven't been online yet at least once. This was really annoying when we worked on our HL2 mod and Hammer would refuse to run. Add to this that it's really buggy and sometimes even won't start if you *were* online with it. I hate Steam :(

[Garry Silljo]

and they wonder why people are concerned that they may not be able to play the games they paid for someday, after the developer has finally gone bankrupt due to their bullshit policies of screwing over their customers with things like DRM?

Meanwhile you think PC gaming is totally frugal, but you forget to mention those people you think paid too much money for a 360 version of Gears can still play it.

[Sabz5150]

They purchased a product designed to stop them from enjoying it. I have no sympathy when it works as advertised. Which is why i recommend against purchasing PC games.

As I have no sympathy when it is circumvented.


EULA says i can wipe all of the files off your hard drive, and you're not allowed to sue me for it. It's unlikely an EULA would stand up in court on it's own, it doesn't appear to be a legally binding contract.

The EULA says that upon purchase, the user has a non-refundable, non-transferrable license to operate the software purchased. If the user is not able to utilize the license they have purchased (i.e. are not allowed to play the game), then the company is in violation of the EULA.

The EULA is a legally binding contract. If it's not, then I challenge you to strip from your own all references to reverse engineering, copying, circumvention of protection methods and likewise.

You seem to believe that a shield is only a shield depending on which side you are standing on. It works both ways.

The EULA in NO WAY allows a developer the ability to destroy the contents of a user's hard drive. It has a liability clause that says should that happen by freak accident, the company is not responsible. I promise you this, if you were found to be intentionally deleting content of a user's hard drive, there'd be some jail time in your future. That, or you'd be buying a dozen Ferraris for guys in Russia. Daily.


Once again, i suggest not buying from companies who use it as a defense mechanism.

The clueless 18 year olds won't listen. DRM and those that support it feed off of ignorance. Stupidity is what makes the product sell. Now, put a big warning label on the game (as was the case with music CDs... see how long THAT lasted?) and things will change. But oh no, can't do that... profits and all.


Sure i can, it's called DRM. And if you try to bypass it, you're breaking the law. And if the publisher doesn't like you for whatever reason, they could prosecute you for it.

Likewise, if you do not provide me with the goods and services which we agreed upon when the game and license were purchased, you are breaking the law. You are stealing the customer's money. You are, at that point, a criminal.

Worry not, this will end up in court one day.


Personally, i write a letter to my congresscritters every 6 months asking that the modify the DMCA. What have you done to help put an end to this madness?

I support the circumvention of DRM methods. It's like putting rat poison in a wound. It doesn't kill you... but you bleed to death constantly paying to make new methods which will only be circumvented again. Lather, rinse, bloodbath.

The DMCA will not be modified. People like you make too much money for that to happen.


I'm in complete agreement. Notice i'm recommending people not buy products that use DRM?

So you are basically saying don't buy your product? Cool. Can I advertise this fact?


In this economy, any company that doesn't strive to make a profit will soon go out of business. Venture capitol only lasts for so long...

Again, so much the better. Put your hand on that stove enough times and not only will you find out it burns, you'll quickly realize that your hand is injured beyond the ability to heal properly.

[Sabz5150]

DRM does not and will not ever help the developer. It isn't "copy protection" in the traditional sense.

It helps the developer get paid. After the money's in their hands, they do not care.


DRM is different. It does not punish pirates. It doesn't hurt pirates one bit. It does, however, hinder people who actually put down the money for the real thing. It's backwards. You can argue piracy this, piracy that all day long but the end result of all of this is that the pirated copies of Gears of War still work and the legitimate ones don't without manipulating the system clock. I'm all for anti-piracy measures. DRM is not one. It's something different. It was thought to be anti-piracy at first but it's become plainly obvious that it does not work. How can anything that encourages legitimate customers to seek out exploits be called "anti-piracy" with a straight face? There are better options out there.

Ding, ding, ding! We have a winner!

DRM is a money making scheme, plain and simple.

[roushimsx]

Not if you're behind a firewall. And then there's the problem that a lot of apps won't start if you haven't been online yet at least once.

To be fair, an internet connection is listed as being one of the minimum requirements (http://store.steampowered.com/app/220/) and expecting it to work through a firewall without specific exemptions set is like complaining about losing frames while gaming with a full AV scan running in the background. Bonus points for making it easy to backup games and for having a fairly easy to run offline mode (https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=3160-AGCB-2555).

Steam has come a long way in the last few years. I remember when it was in beta I thought it was a pile of shit. Hell, even after HL2 came out it was pretty spotty. I got lucky and was able to unlock my game right on time, but I knew some dudes that had to wait a few days before they could play. For a while now though, it's been wonderful.

Never having to hunt down patches is an especially nice feature.

[monkeychemist]

If you pirate the game, the developers are going to keep licensing harsher DRM schemes to try and stop you. In which case, you're just making it worse for yourself. Unfortunately this path requires a sacrifice on your part.

Wrong. $Developers have no way of figuring out how many or who is pirating their games. Furthermore, they have no way of proving that the people pirating would actually buy their game. The statistics they throw out are always gross estimates with no conclusive proof. Piracy is just an excuse for failing companies...when really it was a bad game or retarded DRM, like in this case, that brings on the failure.

[Sabz5150]

There are certain DRM copy protection methods that I do not mind. The Nintendo Wii's is one of these. The method prevents copying and play on another console. It doesn't get in the way of me playing my game and it doesn't prevent me from making a copy of my DLC for backup purposes.

Also of importance, it doesn't remove my Homebrew Channel. Yes, I could in fact use it to pirate Wiiware and VC games. But I don't. I even let the Nintendo Channel watch my playing stats, so Shig KNOWS I am playing the HBC. But he also knows that I legally purchase his wares.

He leaves me alone, I support him by buying his product.* It's rather simple. See how that works?


(*The exception is the Wii Speak thing. That's a slap in the face of used game stores and I refuse to support it.)

[heybtbm]

Wrong. $Developers have no way of figuring out how many or who is pirating their games. Furthermore, they have no way of proving that the people pirating would actually buy their game. Statements made in my posts are always Anecdotal hyperbole with no conclusive proof. Piracy is just an excuse for failing companies...when really it was a bad game or retarded DRM, like in this case, that brings on the failure.

FTFY.

[Sabz5150]

FTFY.

Alright... you've made a claim, provide your evidence.

[monkeychemist]

Likewise, if you do not provide me with the goods and services which we agreed upon when the game and license were purchased, you are breaking the law. You are stealing the customer's money. You are, at that point, a criminal.

Worry not, this will end up in court one day.

It would be cool to have a big class-action suit against DRM on a specific game. All the PC GoW customers should get together and sue Epic. They purchased a game for lifetime use, not for a set amount of time. It's like the check you give epic suddenly gets withdrawn from their bank account and goes back to the buyer. You bet Epic would sue within weeks.

I just don't get how DRM is legal. Seriously, you have examples like this and what about giving a game or trading with a friend. I own MGS4 for my PS3. My friend wants to play it but doesn't have the money. So I lend it to him and he plays it through then gives it back. If you replace the PS3 references with a new PC game with DRM then we committed a crime. Kinda also kills places like this forum where people buy, sell and trade games all the time...

[monkeychemist]

FTFY.

wow you're so cool! I'm so happy that you did that

[Sabz5150]

It would be cool to have a big class-action suit against DRM on a specific game. All the PC GoW customers should get together and sue Epic. They purchased a game for lifetime use, not for a set amount of time. It's like the check you give epic suddenly gets withdrawn from their bank account and goes back to the buyer. You bet Epic would sue within weeks.

I just don't get how DRM is legal. Seriously, you have examples like this and what about giving a game or trading with a friend. I own MGS4 for my PS3. My friend wants to play it but doesn't have the money. So I lend it to him and he plays it through then gives it back. If you replace the PS3 references with a new PC game with DRM then we committed a crime. Kinda also kills places like this forum where people buy, sell and trade games all the time...

Neither of us support piracy. However I think our complaint with DRM methonds and their issues (such as the ones in articles like this) can be summed up in five words:

We are not collateral damage.

[monkeychemist]

Neither of us support piracy. However I think our complaint with DRM methonds and their issues (such as the ones in articles like this) can be summed up in five words:

We are not collateral damage.

I 100% agree. It is after all why we are part of this forum/community. We like to see those games on the shelf. While I can play nes/snes on my cell phone, I much prefer playing the way it was meant on the proper console.

[roushimsx]

Wrong. $Developers have no way of figuring out how many or who is pirating their games.

1) $Yes they do (http://2dboy.com/2008/11/13/90/)
2) $Yes they can (http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=204136)
3) It's normally the $Publisher that insists on the inclusion of copy protection / DRM schemes, not the $Developers.

It's also very telling when an expansion pack that does have copy protection (such as Incubation: The Wilderness Missions or Duke Nukem: Plutonium Pak sells more than the base game that didn't have copy protection.

[Sabz5150]

1) $Yes they do (http://2dboy.com/2008/11/13/90/)
2) $Yes they can (http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=204136)
3) It's normally the $Publisher that insists on the inclusion of copy protection / DRM schemes, not the $Developers.

It's also very telling when an expansion pack that does have copy protection (such as Incubation: The Wilderness Missions or Duke Nukem: Plutonium Pak sells more than the base game that didn't have copy protection.

Awesome. Show me how you arrived at those numbers.

[Icarus Moonsight]

I think he did explain how he arrived there. Expansions with protection selling more copies than the game it expands...

This whole mess is unfortunate, but I hope it's the Oak Stake driven through the heart of DRM or at least the beginning of the end.

Only thing that bothers me is that I thought it was legal to crack programs you legally purchased. I did this with ReBirth when my disk met a grisly end (disk drive snap!). It's academic now since it's free/abandonware now. :/

[Sabz5150]

I think he did explain how he arrived there. Expansions with protection selling more copies than the game it expands...

Those were not the titles described in the articles referenced. Also, the articles (and numbers) automatically assume a sale per pirated copy. If I were to pull a number out of the same place they did, I'd say around 80% of the people who play a pirated copy would not purchase a copy legally... either because they're cheapasses, they are doing it to Damn the Man(TM), or they just can't afford it because they're 13 years old and found this bittorrent thing.


This whole mess is unfortunate, but I hope it's the Oak Stake driven through the heart of DRM or at least the beginning of the end.

One can only hope so.


Only thing that bothers me is that I thought it was legal to crack programs you legally purchased. I did this with ReBirth when my disk met a grisly end (disk drive snap!). It's academic now since it's free/abandonware now. :/

Circumvention is not permitted thanks to the DMCA. Overhyped claims of ZOMG TEH PIRATEZ KILL MAH BUZINESS has let them do things that were once illegal to do. Not to mention the EULAs make you sign your life away.

You USED to be able to make a copy for backup purposes... but that means that you'd rely on your backup should "aww snap" happen instead of forking over cash for yet another license.

Devs... wanna fix THAT? Give me a free (or low cost... 2 bucks or so) replacement for my disc should it be damaged. I can even send you the pieces if you'd like.

[TonyTheTiger]

It helps the developer get paid. After the money's in their hands, they do not care.

DRM is a money making scheme, plain and simple.

Are you sure about that? I'm not being flippant here, either. I'm genuinely doubtful that DRM actually helps increase a publisher's/developer's profits in any significant way. Look at what happened with Spore on Amazon. I think that debacle convinced at least a few people who would have bought the game to either not spend the money at all or seek out an exploit. So in the case of Spore, DRM either pushed away potential customers or created more pirates. How does either result help increase revenue?

You could argue that DRM forces people to buy a legit copy but I get the impression that the number of people who would have pirated the game if DRM were not present who now, because of DRM, end up actually going out to buy the game make up an infantesimal percentage. I would certainly venture a guess that it makes up a smaller percentage than the above scenarios.

If DRM were horrible for the end user but amazingly good for the publisher then I could at least understand why it would stick around. But DRM doesn't appear to be good for anybody. And because it's still relatively new publishers haven't entirely gotten the memo yet but they're gradually growing more privy to the problems. EA did sort of address the Spore fiasco.

[monkeychemist]

1) $Yes they do (http://2dboy.com/2008/11/13/90/)
2) $Yes they can (http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=204136)
3) It's normally the $Publisher that insists on the inclusion of copy protection / DRM schemes, not the $Developers.

It's also very telling when an expansion pack that does have copy protection (such as Incubation: The Wilderness Missions or Duke Nukem: Plutonium Pak sells more than the base game that didn't have copy protection.

As stated in my post earlier, those numbers are estimation with no factual information. Also, the expansion pack selling more than the base product mens nothing. My little brothers are fanatical about blizzard games. They will buy multiple copies of the expansion packs to make multiple characters.

[monkeychemist]

If I were to pull a number out of the same place they did, I'd say around 80% of the people who play a pirated copy would not purchase a copy legally...

I would agree with that estimate. I think most people that play the pirated game would not purchase it to begin with. People will then say, why would you play a game that you wouldn't pay for? The answer is probably that they wouldn't pay $50 for it, but maybe $10 or $20. Or they expect it to suck but want to give it a chance...then realize that it sucks and delete it. I know that playing demos off the PSN has VERY much encouraged me to stay on the good side of the law...and then if I like the game I wait until it sells for $20-30.

[roushimsx]

My little brothers are fanatical about blizzard games. They will buy multiple copies of the expansion packs to make multiple characters.

You obviously don't understand the difference between an expansion pack for a mid-late 90s tactical game and an expansion pack for a modern day MMORPG.

[Skelix]

All this talk about this makes me want to play GoW on the PC even more, and now I can't.

I wonder when they'll fix this, and when they do. Will we lose all our saves etc? Last time they updated the Games for Windows dashboard I lost all my GoW single player saves.

[walrusmonger]

It would be cool to have a big class-action suit against DRM on a specific game. All the PC GoW customers should get together and sue Epic. They purchased a game for lifetime use, not for a set amount of time. It's like the check you give epic suddenly gets withdrawn from their bank account and goes back to the buyer. You bet Epic would sue within weeks.

I just don't get how DRM is legal. Seriously, you have examples like this and what about giving a game or trading with a friend. I own MGS4 for my PS3. My friend wants to play it but doesn't have the money. So I lend it to him and he plays it through then gives it back. If you replace the PS3 references with a new PC game with DRM then we committed a crime. Kinda also kills places like this forum where people buy, sell and trade games all the time...


In some instruction manuals (for console games) they state it's illegal to loan out your copy of the game to anyone else- I kind of remember reading this in my Rune: Viking Warlord manual for PS2, but I'm not sure if it's being used in manuals today since I don't read them.

And there was a comment by someone about "ignorant 18 year olds who support DRM." Since I am one of the few/only people in support of this, you must have been targeting me. I have been anti-piracy for many years and am not basing my opinions off of a childish "what's good" mentality. While my friends were burning PS1 games for their chipped systems, I was buying them legit because I find piracy one of the most disgusting things someone with a computer can do. I understand your view, but my view is that DRM is just the next level of anti-piracy measures. Sure, it's harsh, but it's just the next evolution of protection in a world that's making it easier and easier to steal content. I am not 18 or ignorant, and I don't care if anyone agrees with my viewpoint- I realize that DRM can be annoying, but it's just the way things are at the moment.

I used to have a Zune pass which allowed for unlimited music downloads, but the content was highly protected with DRM- once you stopped paying $15 a month for the pass, you lost your music. I didn't mind since we're paying to borrow the music, not keep it. Now they let you keep 10 songs a month if you have a Zune pass- they are changing it based upon customer feedback (I guess). I stopped the Zune pass because for $15 a month I would rather buy 1 hard copy of a CD and keep the media, I didn't try and crack my DRM files and keep them, despite paying for many months of service.

Game DRM will evolve eventually, it's a newish method of protection, there will be hiccups in getting the right balance between free use and control. We own the disc, the manual, and the box, not the content. People are used to downtimes in cable tv service, phone service, internet service- now we have to worry about downtimes in our paid for content. Just another thing to have to deal with, but it will be fixed, and if our lives are so dependant on being able to play a game 24 hours a day throughout the year, then I think it's time we all find a new hobby.

[monkeychemist]

In some instruction manuals (for console games) they state it's illegal to loan out your copy of the game to anyone else- I kind of remember reading this in my Rune: Viking Warlord manual for PS2, but I'm not sure if it's being used in manuals today since I don't read them.

I don't see how that would be legal. You purchase something fair and square, you can do whatever you want with your copy. What if your friend bought that game and didn't like it but knew that you liked it? So now he got screwed with a shiny paperweight and you would have to buy your own copy? This DRM crap is a slippery slope.

Also, I think for the instructions manual thing to stick they would have to make you sign something saying that you read and understood, otherwise, who's to say you read the manual...not many people do these days.

[monkeychemist]

You obviously don't understand the difference between an expansion pack for a mid-late 90s tactical game and an expansion pack for a modern day MMORPG.

obviously I don't. But what about the situation where you bought SC: Brood wars and the disk broke? You can no longer play the game and have to buy another disk. What do you think of that smart guy?

[Push Upstairs]

In some instruction manuals (for console games) they state it's illegal to loan out your copy of the game to anyone else- I kind of remember reading this in my Rune: Viking Warlord manual for PS2, but I'm not sure if it's being used in manuals today since I don't read them.

So this means that rental stores are committing a crime?

[walrusmonger]

So this means that rental stores are committing a crime?

No, I believe rental stores (at least big, legit chains) have a different method of purchase than regular stores, since they are buying items with the sole intent of rental. I don't own Rune anymore, but I will see if I can find something similar in another booklet.

[calthaer]

Ha...what a piece of garbage. This isn't the only reason PC gaming is dying - I think the "release-then-patch" method of making the games (creating lots of shovelware) and the silly hype over super-high graphics (leading to lots of games that 80+% of computers can't run decently) are just as, if not more, responsible for this nonsense than DRM.

Still, though, I'm building my first super-system in about 7 years so that I can play some of the more recent games on it. I saw Gears of War in Best Buy the other day, saw that it didn't require Vista, and considered it for inclusion in my library once the parts get here. Then this happens, and now - no way.

Besides the fact that I remember Mark Rein from Epic running his mouth about Nintendo and how stupid their new Wii console was going to be. Look who's laughing now. Anyways.

I had a thought while reading this: game design has got to be contributing to this whole piracy problem. Back in the day, it seems to me that more games used to be re-playable - you could finish them in the span of 2-3 hours, or sit down for half hour play sessions on random or pre-generated maps, or head into multiplayer for a few rounds.

In recent years it seems there is an increasing focus (especially on the PC) on the single-player experience, with little or no focus on re-playability or multiplayer modes. There have been some great single-player games to come out of that focus, like the Thief / Deus Ex series, but it still seems like the PC has completely missed the ball on what has historically been its strength - internet connection and the ability to play with / against others. They had this capability YEARS before the consoles, which are only now beginning to catch up. And yeah - there are MMOGs, and the ability to play against others, but multiplayer coop has gotten really gotten the short end of the stick.

I also predict that it's only a matter of time before MMOGs make the leap to consoles as well. In addition, MMOGs aren't everyone's cup of tea - I'd rather play with a few friends than with a bunch of strangers I've never met. Playing System Shock 2 multiplayer coop with...it was SoulBlazer and I believe EdOscuro - that was legendary. The real strength of a computer is that you always have an opponent to play against, regardless of whether a person is there or not. Multiplayer cooperative (non-MMOG) is something that is a unique strength, especially on the PC which has had internet connection for over a decade, that they just haven't capitalized on that much.

If game companies made games that were more like a board game (multiple ways / styles to play, different paths to victory, multiplayer, lots of replayability) and less like a book or movie (read / seen once, no need to read / see again for a while, at least for most people), maybe this would discourage some of the pirates. It's also easier with a multiplayer mode to do some kind of license verification a la Steam, which I've also become more of a fan of lately.

[monkeychemist]

So this means that rental stores are committing a crime?

Yes, that's why DRM is retarded. It has no intelligent ideas, just bad solutions to a piracy problem that they really substantiate. It prevents rental stores and buy-sell-trade stores from doing business and violates your American right of ownership to lend an item you own to who you want, when you want. Anyone who supports DRM is either a publisher, or illogical, thus you can't reason with someone who is making money off it or someone who is illogical.

[monkeychemist]

I'd rather play with a few friends than with a bunch of strangers I've never met. Playing System Shock 2 multiplayer coop with...it was SoulBlazer and I believe EdOscuro - that was legendary.

A little off-topic but I agree with you. I would much rather play side-by-side with a friend or two a la Secret of Mana as opposed to with strangers online. Playing with your real friends online sucks too IMO, it is the trend of more and more internet socializing and less and less personal experiences.

[walrusmonger]

They don't want their games resold, they want it to be 1 license to 1 customer- I don't blame them! If I produced games I would want everyone to buy it 1st hand so I saw part of the action, clearly our society is not ready for it, but it hardly makes someone illogical for thinking it's not "retarded."

[monkeychemist]

They don't want their games resold, they want it to be 1 license to 1 customer- I don't blame them! If I produced games I would want everyone to buy it 1st hand so I saw part of the action, clearly our society is not ready for it, but it hardly makes someone illogical for thinking it's not "retarded."

It's illogical to expect a different outcome from the same repeated idea. It's just plain retarded that after 35 years of video gaming people will want to stop renting, trading and buying used games and suddenly want to pay full price for it. Just because YOU like that idea doesn't make it law.

[TonyTheTiger]

They don't want their games resold, they want it to be 1 license to 1 customer- I don't blame them! If I produced games I would want everyone to buy it 1st hand so I saw part of the action, clearly our society is not ready for it, but it hardly makes someone illogical for thinking it's not "retarded."

It's entirely possible to outlaw second hand sales. Pawn shops can be outlawed. Used car sales can be outlawed. Used anything can be outlawed. I'm sure GM isn't all that happy people can go and buy a used but well kept Chevy from somebody. But one staple of our social and economic society is the concept of autonomy. I buy something and therefore I can do with it what I want. If I buy a one of a kind Picasso, nobody can tell me that I can't cut it in half if I want. That might be a stupid thing to do but the principles of autonomy allow me to do that. Picasso, were he alive, isn't allowed to come to me after the purchase and stop me from doing that. There are some finer legal details surrounding whether or not his name is on the painting and such, but that's not relevant here.

The point is that if you buy something from me, then I have very little legal standing to stop you from doing what you want with that item. DRM might not be illegal. We'd have to see it go to court first. But the desire to control the buyer's use of the product is completely contradictory to the current state of contract and copyright law.

[walrusmonger]

It's illogical to expect a different outcome from the same repeated idea. It's just plain retarded that after 35 years of video gaming people will want to stop renting, trading and buying used games and suddenly want to pay full price for it. Just because YOU like that idea doesn't make it law.



I said in many of my posts that people aren't ready for it and that I understand most people wouldn't agree with me, I'm just trying to explain why I think the way I do about the situation. Obviously you're right in the fact that most people (if not all) who buy the product will not be in favor of this, and that the only ones who like it will be the producers; but if the producers aren't happy, will they continue to make PC games? Will PC gaming turn into MMORPGS and other pay-to-play services that rely on online-only subscriptions that you would have trouble pirating? DRM is probably the last ditch effort to try and keep PC gaming as a "walk into the store, buy game, play game" industry, because if the market keeps shrinking (again, minus MMORPGS) who will put their game on the PC except for small indie developers?

If this were to happen to console disc games, I would probably not feel the same way- but you can't trade in or buy used PC games from the major national chains. As long as console games remain on discs, there will not be a DRM system like this set up- and if they move to digital download, then the stores have a lot more to worry about than any of us.

PC games are different than console games- sure there is piracy on the consoles, but it takes more than a few google searches to play a pirate console game for any of the modern systems (minus handhelds). There needs to be strict protection- either digital download only or DRM.

I don't see the problem with DRM. Do I like it? No, why the hell would I like it. I am, however, in favor of the publishers doing what *they* think they need to do in order to continue putting out PC games. Would you rather no PC games come out, or PC games with DRM?

I hardly feel my view is ignorant or retarded.

[roushimsx]

obviously I don't. But what about the situation where you bought SC: Brood wars and the disk broke? You can no longer play the game and have to buy another disk. What do you think of that smart guy?

You're really grasping for straws here, man. Just quit.

[TonyTheTiger]

I hardly feel my view is ignorant or retarded.

I won't say it's ignorant or retarded but I will say it's more fatalist than it needs to be. "DRM has problems but tough noogies cuz it's all downhill from here."

Remember that DRM is a catch all term for a slew of various protections, not all of which are created equal. People weren't up in arms over things like CD verification and stuff. But when it gets to the point that the copy of the game you bought can only be used on one or two computers, requires an active internet connection for verification each time, the game actually stops working at a future date...well, you can't blame people for thinking that's taking a jackhammer to a thumbtack.

And, still, like I said 100 times...it encourages piracy. So how are the more draconian measures of DRM good for anybody?

[Iron Draggon]

if DRM is really so effective, then why is it that all it takes to get around not being able to play GOW right now is to simply roll back your system clock? this indicates to every sane person aware of it just how retarded DRM really is... it's effective at nothing but pissing off the few who actually buy games for their PC's, instead of pirating them... which eventually ends up supporting piracy, not eliminating it, because people who get burned like this enough times will either start pirating the games or they'll just stop buying them altogether... which eliminates legitimate business for the very developers and publishers who still don't understand why more people aren't buying their games... so it sounds to me like the only retards are developers & publishers

I'm beginning to wonder if DRM isn't just an excuse to stop supporting the PC platform myself... that's about the only way they MIGHT convince people like me to go back to doing all their gaming on consoles, instead of on the PC... and it's obvious that most developers & publishers would prefer that I have to pay 2 - 3 times more for all my games than I do for all my PC games... why else would they support all the consoles over the PC? there's far more money in it for them on the consoles, so it's not really a big surprise why they keep beating the piracy drum whenever they talk about PC gaming... it's the most convenient excuse they can come up with for not developing for the PC over the consoles... nearly everyone who owns a console also owns a PC, but not everyone who owns a PC owns a console... so if they can piss off all the PC gamers badly enough, they'll be forced to do all their gaming on consoles, or just stop gaming altogether... and apparently, that's what they want... every PC gamer paying console game prices to continue playing games