who chooses which xbox games are given BC for the 360?

[c0ldb33r]

Obviously its Microsoft who has the final say - but how do they choose?

I ask because I noticed today that Capcom vs SNK 2 does NOT work, but the gem the Guy Game works perfectly.

Is there anything that can be done to get non-BC working games to work on the 360?

[Vlcice]

If I recall, it's at least partly based just on what games happen to work in their emulator. If The Guy Game or Barbie Horse Adventures happens to play as a result of what they did to make other, more popular games work they'll mark them compatible; they don't necessarily design the emulator for those games specifically.

[Leo_A]

There's nothing that can be done to get a non working title to play. The emulator is programmed to either run or not run titles, you're not given any choice in the matter.

Something like The Guy Game works because in the process of getting something people do want to play compatible, it makes titles that operate similarly from a programming standpoint possible to be compatible. If your work to get game A working also lets you get game N and S working with minimum effort, even though interest isn't as high for those two titles, why not enable their play anyways?

I doubt any resources were expended on going out of their way to make The Guy Game work. They did the easiest games first, working until they reached the point of diminishing returns in regards to difficulty/cost in emulating titles versus the interest of gamers. I suspect demand from gamers pushed a few titles further up the priority list, but I think its safe to assume that's basically how they made those decisions.

[ProgrammingAce]

They worked on games using a scale that judged popularity and ease of porting. Along the way, getting halo 2 to work may have enabled barbie horse adventures to work.

Microsoft gave publishers the ability to fix emulation for their own games as well. As far as i'm aware, no publisher took them up on that offer. It's actually possible to stamp an xbox1 game with it's emulation files already on the disc so they can be played on a 360. It was never actually done though.

[eugenek]

From what I understand, outside of priority titles (like the Halos), as they've been developing the emulator, during the process if they can get a game to work with minimal extra work, they do it...so it's not like they sit there and think, well, should we do Barbie Horse Adventures or Beyond Good and Evil.

[eugenek]

I swear that Barbie Horse Adventures was the first example that came to my mind, but when I pressed submit, I was the third person to mention it!

[Leo_A]

Microsoft gave publishers the ability to fix emulation for their own games as well. As far as i'm aware, no publisher took them up on that offer. It's actually possible to stamp an xbox1 game with it's emulation files already on the disc so they can be played on a 360. It was never actually done though.

That's not what several developers, such as Bizarre Creations, have publically stated on their message boards and such when responding to questions on why a game wasn't emulated, or why the emulation wasn't 100%.

[Oobgarm]

Satan.

[ProgrammingAce]

That's not what several developers, such as Bizarre Creations, have publically stated on their message boards and such when responding to questions on why a game wasn't emulated, or why the emulation wasn't 100%.

I said publishers, not developers.

Remember, microsoft published bizarre's games anyway.

[heybtbm]

I'm still waiting for Mercenaries to work properly (unfortunately, I'll be waiting forever).

It seems that Microsoft's criteria for listing a game as backwards compatible consisted of a quick 15 minute play through. If anyone would've played Mercenaries for more than the first few missions...they never would've given it a pass. Anyway, I'll quit bitching now.

[Trumpman]

Recently got a 360 and was looking at backwards compatibility. I loved TimeSplitters 2 and to a lesser extent Future Perfect on Gamecube and was going to pick them up for Xbox until I looked at the BC list. I sure wish they would make those two compatible, but the chance of us seeing another update looks slim to none.

[c0ldb33r]

...I sure wish they would make those two compatible, but the chance of us seeing another update looks slim to none.
That's an understatement. They won't "waste" any more money on additional BC games. This is especially true given that Sony has completely, and unapologetically, removed PS2 BC from the PS3, so there are no market forces requiring MS to add more BC games. The only way a non-compatible game will be made compatible from this point-on is if they plan to release it as an xbox original title and therefore have to fix it anyway.

[BHvrd]

I'm still waiting for Mercenaries to work properly (unfortunately, I'll be waiting forever).

It seems that Microsoft's criteria for listing a game as backwards compatible consisted of a quick 15 minute play through. If anyone would've played Mercenaries for more than the first few missions...they never would've given it a pass. Anyway, I'll quit bitching now.

Yeah quite complaining and bow down, Jedi scum. :D

[j_factor]

Microsoft gave publishers the ability to fix emulation for their own games as well. As far as i'm aware, no publisher took them up on that offer. It's actually possible to stamp an xbox1 game with it's emulation files already on the disc so they can be played on a 360. It was never actually done though.

Wasn't that done with the Burger King games? :D

[bangtango]

Who cares about BC?

Is it that much trouble to keep around (or buy) a $50 Xbox, a few hookups and a $10-12 controller?

Why on earth does someone need to wear out a higher priced system which is already delicate (360) playing stuff that can be played on a less expensive console?

[DigitalSpace]

I recently posted this PA strip in another thread, and can't resist posting it here:

http://www.penny-arcade.com/images/2006/20060109h.jpg

[Leo_A]

Who cares about BC?

Is it that much trouble to keep around (or buy) a $50 Xbox, a few hookups and a $10-12 controller?

Why on earth does someone need to wear out a higher priced system which is already delicate (360) playing stuff that can be played on a less expensive console?

Because it's neat if it can do it, gives you a backup if your original console dies, lets you save space if needed, and lets you run widescreen and/or 480p or hd titles without sacrificing visual quality on the rest of your Xbox library by moving your Xbox away from a sd crt.

I don't use the BC myself and never will outside of a few Xbox Originals I've purchased, but I can see reasons why someone could appreciate it.

[c0ldb33r]

Who cares about BC?
My problem is that I don't have any more room near my television for yet another game console, so if I can get one console to do double duty I will.

I've still got my original xbox but I'd prefer not to have to unpack it and hook everything up every time I want to play an original xbox game.

[j_factor]

Who cares about BC?

I wish the Wii was compatible with Gamecube imports and the Game Boy Player, so I could get rid of my Gamecube. As it is, I use a Power Base Converter rather than a normal Master System, a Super 8 rather than an NES unit, and I am in the process of seeing if I can get rid of my PS2 in favor of using my PS3 for all my PSX and PS2 games (having gotten rid of the original Playstation long ago). And yet, my setup is still a disgusting stack of systems with a gross conglomeration of wires behind the TV. I have a Wii, Xbox, Gamecube, PS2, Dreamcast, Saturn, SNES, Genesis, Turbo Duo, Atari 7800, and Colecovision all in the same area (my PS3 is connected to my monitor instead). I have a Commodore 64 that just sits in its box because I simply have nowhere to put it. Any new system that can completely replace one of my old systems is one I'm more likely to buy.

[dendawg]

I find it hard to believe that with 3 cores, that they can't program a 100% compatible emulator. :roll:

[PapaStu]

I find it hard to believe that with 3 cores, that they can't program a 100% compatible emulator. :roll:

It's not that they can't, but its more of the problem of having to pay someone to create an emulator for each game. They arn't making any more money on those old games, that are all OOP and no longer being produced. MS doesn't care about the original XBox releases now (save for potential Xbox Originals that might be offered on XBL).

[ButtonMasher123]

What I don't understand is if they are not going to be updating backwards compatibility any more then why don't they just put out the most requested titles left like Beyond Good and Evil as Xbox original downloads on Xbox Live instead of giving us crap no one wants like Halo 1 for $15.

That way everyone wins because they make their money and we get to play quality Xbox games on our 360. I guess that's just too logical for them though. I swear Mircosoft hates us sometimes.

[ProgrammingAce]

It's not that they can't, but its more of the problem of having to pay someone to create an emulator for each game.

Part of it is that they can't. They run into the same problem every other emulator on the planet runs into. Developers usually stress the hardware to the edge of it's performance by using tricks the system was never designed to do. Without the source code, it can be a giant pain in the ass to run through the assembly code to see what every instruction does. You make a best guess effort, and be done with it. Even with all it's horsepower, i don't believe the 360 could do an instruction per instruction emulation of the Xbox1.

Mind you, i don't think the PS3 could do the same for the PS2 either, but it is more likely just due to how the MIPS worked on the PS2.


What I don't understand is if they are not going to be updating backwards compatibility any more then why don't they just put out the most requested titles left like Beyond Good and Evil as Xbox original downloads on Xbox Live instead of giving us crap no one wants like Halo 1 for $15.

That has very little to do with microsoft. Microsoft allows slots for only a few xbox originals per week. It's up to the publishers to offer their games and request it to be put on the list. I would expect Beyond Good and Evil to show up sometime closer to when the sequel comes out.

Rights to games can be difficult these days. Sometimes developers and publishers share the rights to an Intellectual Property. When the publisher doesn't own the developer, and the developer has games with several publishers, one party generally has to buy out the other's share in order to continue the franchise.

[Leo_A]

Beyond Good & Evil was never emulated afaik, so I doubt we'll be seeing it as a Xbox Original.

[Greg2600]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Xbox_games_compatible_with_Xbox_360

Nearly every NTSC (North American) Xbox game is listed as working on wikipedia. There are also many comments about glitches, games freezing, etc. Is that list no good?

[ButtonMasher123]

That has very little to do with microsoft. Microsoft allows slots for only a few xbox originals per week. It's up to the publishers to offer their games and request it to be put on the list. I would expect Beyond Good and Evil to show up sometime closer to when the sequel comes out.

Rights to games can be difficult these days. Sometimes developers and publishers share the rights to an Intellectual Property. When the publisher doesn't own the developer, and the developer has games with several publishers, one party generally has to buy out the other's share in order to continue the franchise.

I understand what you are saying and that could be a problem when dealing with specific requests, but I think the point I was making is that if Microsoft is going to put up a game as a Xbox original download thats already backwards compatible then why bother at all.

I mean its not like their giving you new features or something. Charging $5 more for Halo 1 when you could buy a physical copy for $10 at Gamestop is just stupid and benefits no one. Give us something we don't already have.

And I don't completely buy the fact that its some complicated license issue thats holding up the rest of the games from being backwards enabled. PS2 managed to get 95% of PS1 games working. Microsoft is at about 50% right now after stating they were going to try to make every Xbox game compatible.

[ProgrammingAce]

I understand what you are saying and that could be a problem when dealing with specific requests, but I think the point I was making is that if Microsoft is going to put up a game as a Xbox original download thats already backwards compatible then why bother at all.

I mean its not like their giving you new features or something. Charging $5 more for Halo 1 when you could buy a physical copy for $10 at Gamestop is just stupid and benefits no one. Give us something we don't already have.

And I don't completely buy the fact that its some complicated license issue thats holding up the rest of the games from being backwards enabled. PS2 managed to get 95% of PS1 games working. Microsoft is at about 50% right now after stating they were going to try to make every Xbox game compatible.

They didn't, and they're not going to. Even the SNES doesn't have 100% emulation, i'm not sure if the NES is completely emulated or not. It's not really a worthwhile goal for a company trying to make a profit.

At this point, they're emulated most of the official system calls. Everything left are games that used "cute little tricks". At this point, they're going to have to take a team of programers and reverse-engineer each remaining game one by one. Unless there's some huge public outcry for some specific game, it ain't gonna happen.

[Leo_A]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Xbox_games_compatible_with_Xbox_360

Nearly every NTSC (North American) Xbox game is listed as working on wikipedia. There are also many comments about glitches, games freezing, etc. Is that list no good?

Read your link more carefully, and you'll see that it states "the latest update for Xbox 360 backwards compatibility in North America was 2007-11-27, raising the total number of Xbox games compatible with the Xbox 360 to 478. Approximately 51% of the original Xbox library is now compatible with the Xbox 360 (as of the 2007-11-27 update). "

So no where close to nearly every title. They just barely got to halfway. :)

As for the quality of the information, it seems accurate and is the list I always refer to when I have a question on a title being backwards compatible or not.


I understand what you are saying and that could be a problem when dealing with specific requests, but I think the point I was making is that if Microsoft is going to put up a game as a Xbox original download thats already backwards compatible then why bother at all.

I mean its not like their giving you new features or something. Charging $5 more for Halo 1 when you could buy a physical copy for $10 at Gamestop is just stupid and benefits no one. Give us something we don't already have.

And I don't completely buy the fact that its some complicated license issue thats holding up the rest of the games from being backwards enabled. PS2 managed to get 95% of PS1 games working. Microsoft is at about 50% right now after stating they were going to try to make every Xbox game compatible.

Then the service is obviousily not for you. I've enjoyed it, I've purchased 5 titles I missed out on when new that I've enjoyed playing. It's also a nice convenience, not having to go track down a copy of a uncommon game and always having it there available to play at a press of a button.

As for your last paragraph, I've seen no one say anything about licensing being the reason why titles didn't become BC, just that emulation is a complicated thing that made it difficult to emulate a lot of games. Nor did they ever say they were going to try for 100% emulation, they always carefully selected their words to say things like "top selling Xbox titles" and so on.

[c0ldb33r]

At this point, they're emulated most of the official system calls. Everything left are games that used "cute little tricks". At this point, they're going to have to take a team of programers and reverse-engineer each remaining game one by one.
What sort of cute little tricks does Capcom vs SNK 2 use? I would think that that would be a relatively easy one to get working. It's nothing more than a simply 2D fighter.

[ProgrammingAce]

What sort of cute little tricks does Capcom vs SNK 2 use? I would think that that would be a relatively easy one to get working. It's nothing more than a simply 2D fighter.

Could be anything. They might have used a weird method of reading and writing save files, or used a unique method of storing the sprites in ram, they might have used triple-screen-buffering to create a transparency effect that the emulator can't reproduce at speed. Any "cute little trick" may have thrown the emulator. All the engineers have is a bunch of compiled assembly code and a debug console.

I've seen games that relied on the speed of the DVD-Rom drive in order to process functions. If you speed up or slow down the DVD drive, the game crashes.

In some cases, it may be that the game itself has a programming bug that had no effect on actual hardware, but causes the emulator to crash.

[ButtonMasher123]

Then the service is obviousily not for you. I've enjoyed it, I've purchased 5 titles I missed out on when new that I've enjoyed playing. Its also a nice convenience, not having to go track down a copy of a uncommon game and always having it there available to play at a press of a button.



I agree it can be a quality service for uncommon Xbox games. I almost purchased Psychonauts from them for that exact same reason. I'm more refering to those games that they put up that are extremely common.

I mean you can find like 5 copies of Crash Bandicoot and Halo at every Gamestop for 5 dollars cheaper than what Microsoft is trying to charge you on Live.

It just boggles my mind when they pull stuff like that when there are original Xbox games that me and lot of others want so badly to play on our 360's.

[makaar]

Yeah I made the mistake (not really a "mistake") of re-purchasing Oddworld: Stranger's Wrath the other day, only to find out it doesn't work on 360. Munch's Oddyssey works fine, but they never got around to Stranger's Wrath, I guess...I had sold my old xbox long ago in the hopes that 360 would pick up the remaining games but it looks like they haven't even done anything with the BC list in years. I guess nothing really does beat the original consoles...will be picking up an original xbox this month.

I wonder if a USB-to-Xbox controller adapter will let me play 360 Controllers on the original xbox?

[ProgrammingAce]

I wonder if a USB-to-Xbox controller adapter will let me play 360 Controllers on the original xbox?

No. Get a logitech wireless Xbox controller. Make sure it takes 2 batteries instead of 4.

[c0ldb33r]

No. Get a logitech wireless Xbox controller. Make sure it takes 2 batteries instead of 4.
what? why? were there two different versions of the Logitech xbox controller?

My Logitech ps2 version only takes two.

[ProgrammingAce]

Yeah, there's a slightly larger, slightly crappier 4 battery version. It doesn't automatically shut off like the 2 battery version.

[Poofta!]

ProgrammingAce, do you (or anyone) know if there will be any more BC updates?

[Greg2600]

Read your link more carefully, and you'll see that it states "the latest update for Xbox 360 backwards compatibility in North America was 2007-11-27, raising the total number of Xbox games compatible with the Xbox 360 to 478. Approximately 51% of the original Xbox library is now compatible with the Xbox 360 (as of the 2007-11-27 update). "

So no where close to nearly every title. They just barely got to halfway. :)

As for the quality of the information, it seems accurate and is the list I always refer to when I have a question on a title being backwards compatible or not.

Oh I see, they didn't list a game at all if it wasn't compatible in any region. Wow, 51%, yeah that is pathetic. Combine that with the slew of hardware failures, and no wonder the Wii is so popular!

[ProgrammingAce]

ProgrammingAce, do you (or anyone) know if there will be any more BC updates?

I don't know. But i think it's safe to assume there won't be. Sony was really Microsoft's biggest motivator for updates. Now that they've dropped BC, microsoft doesn't have the pressure. If sony were to bring back BC and start throwing it in Microsoft's face again, they might start putting out new updates.

At this point, i think Sony and Microsoft have an unwritten agreement that if neither one pushes BC right now, neither of them has to spend money on the development.