Will DS games eventually suffer from bit rot?

[guitargary75]

Just wondering?

[crazyjackcsa]

Nope. Carts don't suffer bit rot. Optical media does.

[TheDomesticInstitution]

Nope. Carts don't suffer bit rot. Optical media does.

That was my kneejerk reaction when I 1st read this thread last night. So I went to Wikipedia and searched just to make sure. And according to the entry, carts can get bit rot too and may need to be re-flashed.

Now I have not heard of a single instance, where someone has used "bit rot" in reference to anything other than optical media- but apparently they can.

Since it's early, and I'm tired- here's the Wikipedia link that explains how it happens to carts. Take it for what it's worth. I don't know if I agree with it or not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bit_rot

[crazyjackcsa]

Reading the article, it depends on what you call "bit rot" Since it's a slang term, it doesn't have a hard and fast definition. I've always defined it as a physical degredation of the media. However, it seems to be a catch all for any decay in grogramming, be it a flash card or otherwise. And yes, DS games due to the way the game is stored on the flash card will degrade over time and cease to work.

[Bratwurst]

According to Wikipedia the DS cards use a solid state ROM format, with a small amount of flash memory for saving game data. I would not worry about bit rot.

[Bratwurst]

We go through this discussion every year and there's always someone who doesn't catch it the first time around so here is a primer:

Most commercial video game carts use ROM chips, they have the data physically 'burned' into the substrate of the chip and never suffer bit rot. For the most part they will outlast your grandchildren's grandchildren so long as you don't store your games in the toilet water tank.

Most video game prototypes and development kits use or used EEPROMs, these are like ROM chips but they have a little window on their face. EEPROMs retain data by means of an electrical charge introduced during programming. Exposure of UV light to these windows erases the data on the chip, consequently due to the nature of the data storage they do eventually suffer from bit rot, individual bits losing their electrical charge and causing data corruption. However, EEPROMs can always be 're-flashed' with the original data to refresh the data's lifespan. Most EEPROMs have an advertised retention rate of 10 years but they usually hold it for around 20. (This is why people who collect unreleased prototype games and never back up their contents are retarded.) During the 80s and 90s, EEPROMs were very expensive compared to making a batch of ROM chips and were not viable for use in mass-producing game cartridges. Nowadays, EEPROMs are obsolete because of the Flash format and generally not used.

Flash memory is a variation of the EEPROM and a little more stable, there is no window for UV erasure, they can be written and rewritten to electronically, and are usually used for holding save game data which tends to be small. This is because for the most part, flash memory is more expensive than producing a hard coded ROM chip for the main program. Flash memory has an advertised retention rate of 10 years but I would not be surprised to see it hold stuff for decades. Nobody really knows because the format hasn't been around that long.

Bit-rot as it applies to disc based media is a physical degradation of the foil layer sandwiched between the clear plastic. There's nothing electrical involved, just good old mother nature oxidizing the fuck out of some sweet sweet metal.

[megasdkirby]

Most video game prototypes and development kits use or used EEPROMs, these are like ROM chips but they have a little window on their face. EEPROMs retain data by means of an electrical charge introduced during programming. Exposure of UV light to these windows erases the data on the chip, consequently due to the nature of the data storage they do eventually suffer from bit rot, individual bits losing their electrical charge and causing data corruption. However, EEPROMs can always be 're-flashed' with the original data to refresh the data's lifespan. Most EEPROMs have an advertised retention rate of 10 years but they usually hold it for around 20. (This is why people who collect unreleased prototype games and never back up their contents are retarded.) During the 80s and 90s, EEPROMs were very expensive compared to making a batch of ROM chips and were not viable for use in mass-producing game cartridges. Nowadays, EEPROMs are obsolete because of the Flash format and generally not used.


I really like this post for two reasons:

1)There is a sentence in there that I REALLY love. :)

2) It reminded me of Tank Command, and I pressume Water Ski (maybe other Froggo games?). I heard that these games suffer from bit rot as well, and needs to be reflashed. Don't know if this is correct, though.

[Ed Oscuro]

I would point out that there is a big difference between, say, a CPU, where the process of putting the data (pathways) in is a permanent process where only one configuration is physically present, i.e. "burning," and Flash, where it's not. Even so, this isn't a worry with the DS; you can't overwrite the game data (at least not very easily); it's not degraded by normal ambient conditions like magnetic disks.

The major worry about flash is in write endurance, i.e. the number of times you can write to a specific part of the memory, and again that has no apparent impact on the number of times you can turn the game on and just reading data. However, this endurance is multiple millions of times for every part of the flash, individually. It's probably the case that a save file on a DS game card is set to occupy just one location, but even so it's highly unlikely anybody will wear out this memory. The technology used for the flash in DS cards is probably a bit worse than modern flash hard drives, but the fact people are buying Flash for servers and the like shows that it's not a major issue anymore.

[DreamTR]

EPROM thing is a bit overrated. You forget most arcade games pre 1995 use EPROMS and we're running 25-30 on some of those, but it's rarely talked about.


Yes, it can happen, but not as likely as you think it would.

[Bratwurst]

EPROM thing is a bit overrated. You forget most arcade games pre 1995 use EPROMS and we're running 25-30 on some of those, but it's rarely talked about.

The difference is that most of those arcade games are left on (or should be, leave any PCB in storage long enough and there's degradation of the high voltage caps and other components, etc) and being played frequently. Putting current through the circuit regularly helps prolong the EEPROM's ability to hold data. It's still an inevitability.


you can't overwrite the game data (at least not very easily);

Can you point to an example where someone has done this to a Nintendo made DS card?

[DreamTR]

The difference is that most of those arcade games are left on (or should be, leave any PCB in storage long enough and there's degradation of the high voltage caps and other components, etc) and being played frequently. Putting current through the circuit regularly helps prolong the EEPROM's ability to hold data. It's still an inevitability.



Can you point to an example where someone has done this to a Nintendo made DS card?


A lot of people would disagree about leaving games on all the time. Leaving 1980s era games on 10-12 hours a day is not exactly a good thing in this day and age. They are more likely to break with age.

What's the difference between that and turning on protos once in awhile then?

[A Black Falcon]

We go through this discussion every year and there's always someone who doesn't catch it the first time around so here is a primer:

Most commercial video game carts use ROM chips, they have the data physically 'burned' into the substrate of the chip and never suffer bit rot. For the most part they will outlast your grandchildren's grandchildren so long as you don't store your games in the toilet water tank.

Most video game prototypes and development kits use or used EEPROMs, these are like ROM chips but they have a little window on their face. EEPROMs retain data by means of an electrical charge introduced during programming. Exposure of UV light to these windows erases the data on the chip, consequently due to the nature of the data storage they do eventually suffer from bit rot, individual bits losing their electrical charge and causing data corruption. However, EEPROMs can always be 're-flashed' with the original data to refresh the data's lifespan. Most EEPROMs have an advertised retention rate of 10 years but they usually hold it for around 20. (This is why people who collect unreleased prototype games and never back up their contents are retarded.) During the 80s and 90s, EEPROMs were very expensive compared to making a batch of ROM chips and were not viable for use in mass-producing game cartridges. Nowadays, EEPROMs are obsolete because of the Flash format and generally not used.

Flash memory is a variation of the EEPROM and a little more stable, there is no window for UV erasure, they can be written and rewritten to electronically, and are usually used for holding save game data which tends to be small. This is because for the most part, flash memory is more expensive than producing a hard coded ROM chip for the main program. Flash memory has an advertised retention rate of 10 years but I would not be surprised to see it hold stuff for decades. Nobody really knows because the format hasn't been around that long.

Bit-rot as it applies to disc based media is a physical degradation of the foil layer sandwiched between the clear plastic. There's nothing electrical involved, just good old mother nature oxidizing the fuck out of some sweet sweet metal.

Sorry, but you're making some significant errors here that must be corrected. First, the things you are describing are EPROMs, NOT EEPROMs. EEPROMs are completely different -- they are a type of flash memory. EPROMs are the ones that have windows, bit rot, etc. EEPROMs are flash memory. Simple enough. :)

EPROMs have only seen limited use in game cartridges. Aside from some games for second generation systems (Atari 2600, etc), some arcade stuff, the rewritable test carts that programmers would use to play their games during development (eg. the prototype carts you mention), and many homebrew releases on cartridge systems (because EPROMs are cheaper and easier to deal with than masked roms), essentially no games use the EPROMs you describe there. Normal cartridges for every cart-based system since at least the NES and perhaps before use standard, extremely long-lived masked roms to store the game data. These chips can only be written once, but last a really long time and don't suffer from bit rot to any significant degree.

EPROMs do indeed suffer from bit rot exactly as you say, however... they have 10-20 year estimated lifespans, etc. However, virtually all game cartridges do NOT use them and do NOT suffer from bit rot. EEPROMs do NOT get bit rot like that!


Flash memory is a variation of the EEPROM and a little more stable, there is no window for UV erasure, they can be written and rewritten to electronically, and are usually used for holding save game data which tends to be small. This is because for the most part, flash memory is more expensive than producing a hard coded ROM chip for the main program. Flash memory has an advertised retention rate of 10 years but I would not be surprised to see it hold stuff for decades. Nobody really knows because the format hasn't been around that long.

No, EEPROMs are flash memory, and they're a variation of EPROMs. But I said that already. A couple of things... Flash memory is a major advance over EPROMs simply because the system itself can reflash the chip -- no UV light is required. As a result, flash memory is used for things that needs to be rewritable -- game save chips, memory cards, etc. Game cartridges with internal saving use one of two methods for saving that data, either battery-backed RAM or flash memory. Battery-backed RAM has no write limit, but the batteries will eventually die and after that you cannot save on the cartridge until you replace the often-soldered battery. Flash memory has a write limit and 'bit rot', but nonetheless is in general by far the better system.

First, note that with flash memory, all you need to do to reset that "10+ years" switch is just turn the cartridge on and save again. Presto, it's back to the beginning of that cycle. :) With a battery, the thing is slowly dying away the whole time, whether or not you are using it. With flash, this is not the case... and batteries seem to die sooner than flash has bit rot data erasure issues.

Second, however, there is one significant thing about flash memory types, which is the write limit. That is, all types of flash memory, from EEPROMs to Flash RAM to FRAM and beyond, will eventually hit that limit and will not be able to be written to again. Each type of flash memory has a different write limit, varying anywhere from the tens of thousands to a million and above. How much of an issue this is depends on what the limit is for the type of memory and how often you are reflashing (saving to) the chip.

Flash memory chips are now used widely, in USB flash drives and cards, in systems like the Wii, in all kinds of flash-based memory cards (SD, Memory Stick, etc), and in some game cartridges that support saving, as the save mechanism.

For game systems, I've done a pretty comprehensive guide of which systems use which save types. Read it here: http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5965


The major worry about flash is in write endurance, i.e. the number of times you can write to a specific part of the memory, and again that has no apparent impact on the number of times you can turn the game on and just reading data. However, this endurance is multiple millions of times for every part of the flash, individually. It's probably the case that a save file on a DS game card is set to occupy just one location, but even so it's highly unlikely anybody will wear out this memory. The technology used for the flash in DS cards is probably a bit worse than modern flash hard drives, but the fact people are buying Flash for servers and the like shows that it's not a major issue anymore.

It's definitely an issue, but a lot less of one than the dying batteries in battery-backed SRAM cartridges, for sure... and the bit rot issue with them is even less of an issue than that. But it is something worth mentioning, and thinking about, particularly for types with lower, tens-of-thousands write limits.

[Bratwurst]

A lot of people would disagree about leaving games on all the time. Leaving 1980s era games on 10-12 hours a day is not exactly a good thing in this day and age. They are more likely to break with age.

Powering up and shutting off electronic equipment is actually harder on the components than simply leaving it running. But if you leave it off for prolonged periods of time, that's no better than letting a car sit around letting the brake pads rust out.


What's the difference between that and turning on protos once in awhile then?Not sure what you are attempting to convey or dispute but it actually would be a good thing for you to play your prototypes once in a while.


Sorry, but you're making some significant errors here that must be corrected. First, the things you are describing are EPROMs, NOT EEPROMs. EEPROMs are completely different -- they are a type of flash memory. EPROMs are the ones that have windows, bit rot, etc. EEPROMs are flash memory. Simple enough. :)

Yes, you're correct, it was early in the morning for me when I wrote the post and I threw in an extra 'E'. Much of what you went on to say is just rehashing what I've already laid out because I erroneously applied an extra vowel.


EPROMs do indeed suffer from bit rot exactly as you say, however... they have 10-20 year estimated lifespans, etc. However, virtually all game cartridges do NOT use them and do NOT suffer from bit rot. EEPROMs do NOT get bit rot like that!I never said virtually all games used them, when I said 'ROM' in the first statement I was referring to mask roms. Kindly regard the post preceding my dissertation you are manically masturbating over to observe my correlation between 'mask rom' and lack of bit rot as it pertains to the DS card format.

Also EEPROM flash data does degrade over time similarly to windowed EPROMS. I have seen it happen personally, it is exacerbated by extreme conditions, usually in automotive applications with heat buildup.

Regarding your statement about homebrews (this also applies to reproductions) nowadays EPROMS are the cheap alternative compared to having mask roms but that's because they're obsolete technology, in 1985 it was a heck of a lot cheaper to make a run of 10,000 mask roms than use 10,000 EPROMS. Today it is the opposite.


No, EEPROMs are flash memory,For the love of Christ, you should have enough sense to be aware I made the distinction when I described what flash memory was, to not have to make this clarification. How long did it take you to write this post? Because all you had to do was say 'Excuse me Bratwurst, but you mean 'EPROM' in place of 'EEPROM.'

[A Black Falcon]

Powering up and shutting off electronic equipment is actually harder on the components than simply leaving it running. But if you leave it off for prolonged periods of time, that's no better than letting a car sit around letting the brake pads rust out.

Not sure what you are attempting to convey or dispute but it actually would be a good thing for you to play your prototypes once in a while.

Yeah, leaving it on all the time or off all the time is best; things are worn the most during power on and power off, for sure. But leaving something on all the time isn't realistic for most people, so you just have to live with it pretty much.

As for protos with EPROMs, though, powering them up more would matter, lifespan-before-erase-wise?


Yes, you're correct, it was early in the morning for me when I wrote the post and I threw in an extra 'E'. Much of what you went on to say is just rehashing what I've already laid out because I erroneously applied an extra vowel.

It's an easily made mistake, I wasn't sure if it was intentional or accidental, so I corrected it...


I never said virtually all games used them, when I said 'ROM' in the first statement I was referring to mask roms. Kindly regard the post preceding my dissertation you are manically masturbating over to observe my correlation between 'mask rom' and lack of bit rot as it pertains to the DS card format.

You're right, I thought you were implying that many game cartridges used them, but you don't say that, just that protos, etc. do. You didn't say specifically what does and what doesn't, though; just referring to DS games using masked roms doesn't mean anything for other systems, really... though it does help with the original question.


Also EEPROM flash data does degrade over time similarly to windowed EPROMS. I have seen it happen personally, it is exacerbated by extreme conditions, usually in automotive applications with heat buildup.

True. But rewriting it to the chip is so much easier (just flash it again through the system) that it's much less of an issue as long as you just use the game or card, say, once every ten years. :) Until it hits the write limit that should do it, I'd think. That's a big difference there in how big of a problem bit rot should be.

On the issue of how big a problem write limits are, until fairly recently, flash data was only used for things like cart savegames, etc; we're relatively early in the era of widespread use of flash memory in common use, really. How well will all those flash cards, etc, hold up... flash-based things like PSX or Saturn memory cards or certain N64 carts are still fine, but what about things being written to more than that, like frequently-used memory cards in a PC or a flash-based hard drive or the Wii's internal memory, or things like that? How long will those last until they start to hit write limits?


Regarding your statement about homebrews (this also applies to reproductions) nowadays EPROMS are the cheap alternative compared to having mask roms but that's because they're obsolete technology, in 1985 it was a heck of a lot cheaper to make a run of 10,000 mask roms than use 10,000 EPROMS. Today it is the opposite.

It is too bad though, all these homebrew carts are out there, but they're on EPROMs, so they won't last... homebrews would be better if they could be on masked roms. :(


For the love of Christ, you should have enough sense to be aware I made the distinction when I described what flash memory was, to not have to make this clarification. How long did it take you to write this post? Because all you had to do was say 'Excuse me Bratwurst, but you mean 'EPROM' in place of 'EEPROM.'

I could have, but it was just half a line in a long section, so I left it in... as for the rest of that part, I wanted to add some more info for the original 'bit rot' question. I think it's definitely pertinent -- the various pluses and minuses of SRAM, flash memory (write limits vs. batteries...), hard drives, etc. I had more to say than just that... and like writing long posts anyway.