Atari Jaguar or Sega Saturn

[FrankLee]

I want to buy a new console to get my video game collection going. So I looked up prices for Atari Jaguar, Sega Saturn, Panasonic 3DO and Neo Geo. Neo Geo is to expensive for a college student and there was only like 1 page of 3DO stuff so im going to bid on a Jaguar or Sega Saturn. What are the Pros and Cons of both and what do you think would be better

[digitalpress]

Personally, in order of how I like 'em:

1. Neo-Geo
2. Saturn
3. 3DO
4. Jaguar

Neo-Geo is very expensive but the games are of generally high quality. Considering that most of them are the same code as the arcade counterparts, that's probably a given. I'd do it if you've got bucks to burn.

Saturn stuff is much more common and for the most part very affordable. There are about a dozen games released in the US that are "pricey". The system has a lot to choose from, and even moreso if you expand into the import world, where many great titles are available but not released in the US.

3DO is getting hard to find but it's also not very much in demand. The games have, on the whole, become rather dated but it's still an interesting footnote in the history of gaming. The good news is that what you find you'll surely find CHEAP.

Jaguar - of the systems you listed here - is the one I play the least. It's got a handful of top notch games but an awful lot of duds. I don't really like anything on the CD format (Battlemorph is "ehh"). The good news is that the system can be fairly easily developed for, and a few new titles have come out over the past few years with likely more to come.

[Vroomfunkel]

Definitely the Saturn - the Jaguar has a very small library of decent games. The Saturn has loads! Plus, even though the Jaguar was "64-bit", Saturn games still looked better for the most part. I was very disappointed with the Jaguar when I tried it out. Oh, and the controllers are crap.

Plus you can extend your horizons almost indefinitely on the Saturn. There are plenty of really good, really cheap, really easy to find games to suit a student budget (I know!!). But there is the potential to get a lot more if you find you have a bit more money to spare .... and of course, there is the outstanding range of import titles to think of.

Saturn all the way!

Vroomfunkel

[FrankLee]

Thanks for the input

[Arcade Antics]

No-brainer: Saturn all the way.

I play LOTS of Defender 2000 on the Jag, but that's about all I use it for these days. The Saturn has a nice library and a lot of good exclusives.

[AB Positive]

If you like RPGs and/or Anime, it's Saturn all the way. Even if you don't like either you'll find stuff you'd like on it, but there's tons of fun stuff for the RPG/Anime fan in particular.

-AG

[Tetsu]

Saturn is also good if you like fighting games and shooters, even more so if you include the imports, although some of the good ones command good money and some are insanely pricey. Lots of good ports of the Neo Geo stuff on the Saturn, too, including Metal Slug, King of the Fighters 95-98, Art of Fighting, Fatal Fury Special, and Samurai Showdown.

[AB Positive]

Ahhh, the joy of King of Fighters. The reason I need to get my Saturn region switch modded.

-AG

[Captain Wrong]

Yeah, Saturn over Jag easily.

Great system for fighters and shmups. Truly a "arcade expirence at home" system.

[davidbrit2]

It's super easy to run imports on the Saturn, too. You stick in your 4 in 1 Action Replay cartridge, and. . . Well, that's it, actually. I've heard CDRs are more of a stunt, though.

[Rogmeister]

I have both and would go with the Saturn as well. As mentioned, there are some good Jag games but only a couple that near greatness...mainly Tempest 2000 and Alien Vs. Predator. For some reason, I never bought many Saturn games. I need to get out there looking...is there a good source for import games? I actually have 2 copies of the Saturn version of Duke Nukem 3D so if anyone's looking for one...

[ManekiNeko]

The ONLY choice in this equation is the Saturn. It's got great games (especially the Japanese ones) AND an excellent translation of Tempest 2000 that's smoother than the Jaguar version.

JR

[tynstar]

The reason have already been stated. Saturn is what you should get.

[hamburgler]

Go with the saturn instead of the jaguar.

[swlovinist]

Quoting Return of the Jedi...."There is no conflict" Saturn is by far the superior choice and is a great system to collect. The Atari Jaguar is a neat additon to have in a collection, but is a big pile of stinking poo to play. The Saturn has a bunch a great games to collect(espically the working designs games). Try the imports if you are going to go with the Saturn, there are a ton of games that are available on import!!!

[Gunstarhero]

The safest route is to go with the Saturn, because it's too hit-and-miss with the Jaguar. Either you'll be able to appreciate Atari's efforts and fall in love with the Jag, or you'll think its a paper weight. The Saturn has more games to choose from anyway, their not necessarily better than their Jag counterparts(tempest 2000, Doom, Alien Trilogy don't make me laugh!), but at least you'll have more variety.

I wouldn't dive into Saturn believing your going to get games dirt cheap either, unless you plan on getting CDR's of them. The good shit on Saturn is far and away more expensive to get, as compared to the best of Jagaur. Any of the Working Designs games on Saturn will average a minimum of $50, and thats for the lower end titles like Iron Storm. Panzer Dragoon Saga, well over $100...$100 for a USED CD game? No thanks! Might as well collect NEO GEO, your investment would be more sound.

Clockwork Knight rocks, don't know the average price of that one, but if you get a Saturn, I recommend this platform game.

[Gamereviewgod]

I ahve honestly never seen such a unanimous vote in the history of this board.....wow. O_O And yes, go with the Saturn..I hate the Jag, especially that god damn controller.

[anagrama]

One word. NiGHTS.

[EnemyZero]

yeah saturn definitely... one of my fav systems , guardian heroes baby, saturn is a 2D powerhouse..oh yeah if u like horror/adventure stuff ENEMY ZERO lol :P

[scooterb23]

Put one more log on the Saturn fire...worth it for Panzer Dragoon, Nights, and World Series Baseball 98 alone...

[maxlords]

Yep...Saturn, no question. Most of the titles are fairly cheap, unless you want the US RPGs and a couple of other rarities. And as stated, easy to play imports, and almost ALL the imports are cheap. There are a few import beat em ups and shmups that are spendy, but aside from those, most of it is very affordable!

Persoanlly, I also think the 3D0 has a bad rep. I LOVE that system...but you're right, getting games, especially complete ones, is well nigh impossible sometimes. That 76 game lot that's up now is the best pickings I've seen in a LONG time. And the only really expensive games for the US 3D0 are Lucienne's Quest and Star Control 2. The one thing that's good about the 3D0 that not many people know......it's region free. You can play all sorts of imports on it...just pop em in and they work...and there are a TON of Japanese 3D0 games that never made it here and most are very cheap if you can find em. Jaguar..forget it..it's more of a novelty with minimal good games.

[Sauron2k3]

While your particular situation would require me to recommend the Saturn over the Jag, don't listen to what most of these idiots are saying. The Jag is a great system with some awesome gems outside of the standard top games like T2K and AvP. Most of the people who bitch about the Jag are doing so mainly because they haven't played much of it, because it's popular to diss the Jag, or both. Sure, the Jag has some real duds, but so does the Saturn (moreso, due to the larger library). Somehow the Saturn has become a collector's "elitist" system, meaning that you simply aren't respectable unless you have one. I personally think that many collectors have overhyped the Saturn, as I certainly didn't remember it to be nearly as good as many people make it out to be. Not saying it's a bad system, because that wouldn't be true. Just don't believe all of the hype.

P.S. Joe, you're smoking crack if you think the 3DO is better than the Jag. :P

[zmeston]

While your particular situation would require me to recommend the Saturn over the Jag, don't listen to what most of these idiots are saying. The Jag is a great system with some awesome gems outside of the standard top games like T2K and AvP. Most of the people who bitch about the Jag are doing so mainly because they haven't played much of it, because it's popular to diss the Jag, or both. Sure, the Jag has some real duds, but so does the Saturn (moreso, due to the larger library). Somehow the Saturn has become a collector's "elitist" system, meaning that you simply aren't respectable unless you have one. I personally think that many collectors have overhyped the Saturn, as I certainly didn't remember it to be nearly as good as many people make it out to be. Not saying it's a bad system, because that wouldn't be true. Just don't believe all of the hype.

P.S. Joe, you're smoking crack if you think the 3DO is better than the Jag. :P

I must've been sharing the pipe with Joe and the other idiots, since I'd also rank the 3DO above the Jaguar. Both systems have a healthy percentage of total crap, but I've enjoyed many more 3DO games than Jaguar games. Also, I wrote the one and only official Jaguar strategy guide, so I have (too) much experience with the Jaguar library. I'm not slamming the system to be cool, but because it has, pound-for-pound, the weakest software library of any post-Golden Age system. "Awesome gems" outside of AvP and T2K (a better version of which can be had for the PS1)? Do tell.

-- Z.

[Kid Fenris]

I think you'll be pleased with a Saturn. Though its best titles are often costly ones, you can still get a lot of decent games at low prices, and the system's extensive library ensures that you'll be able to find something you really enjoy.

And yes, the 3DO is, I think, a better system than the Jaguar. For all of its mediocre moments, the 3DO's library is larger and offers a superior variety of good games. Heck, even in the often negligible field of RPGs, the 3DO's selection of Lucienne's Quest, Blue Forest Story, and Guardian War outclasses the Jag's choices of . . . uh, I'll get back to you on that.

[Gunstarhero]

Ugh...Tempest3X...cheap copy of original masterpiece. No meltovision, not even the same great soundtrack, and the control didn't even feel the same. I bought T3X in hopes of repleneshing some of my Jag collection, when I had sold the Jag to get a PSX, then promptly sold T3X after a few weeks. Graphically, its close, but too many small differences made for a big disappointment overall.

The Jaguar is an acquired taste, its for the gamer who wants to be a little eccentric, and non-conformist. It has one of the most unique game libraries to be found, and despite what others are saying, the Jaguar has a very comfortable controller, especially for us big handed Americans. It was the first controller designed to give the player a nice 'grip' to hold, and the only real problem you'll come across with the Jaguar Pad, is you'll get a sore thumb from playing too many good games!

3DO vs. Jag? Please, this must be a joke. You wanna talk about your standard uncomfortable joypads, look no further than 3DO. 3DO flopped just as bad as Jaguar, and the Saturn, but tell me, which game system has the biggest support aftermarket right now? JAGUAR! If 3DO, and the Saturn are such awesome killer machines over the Jag, why is the Jag still being supported by a very large contigent of people who are making and producing professional quality games? I don't see this in the 3DO market, or the Saturn market.

However I still say go for the Saturn, because its the safest bet, due to its larger library, you'll more likely be able to find a game you like. Even though given the chance, the Jaguar can satisfy your needs in certain areas better than the other machines.

[davidbrit2]

Even though given the chance, the Jaguar can satisfy your needs in certain areas better than the other machines.

Hell yeah. The physics model in Club Drive will have you in stitches. I honestly love that game, mostly because of the insane physics. I don't think I've ever laughed so much while playing a video game.

[NoahsMyBro]

"Awesome gems" outside of AvP and T2K (a better version of which can be had for the PS1)? Do tell.

-- Z.

Well, I had refrained from joining in on this thread, simply because I have such little experience with the Saturn I didn't think I could fairly judge it. But it was annoying to see such a consistent slamming of the Jaguar, and I think I can easily offer up several worthwhile Jaguar games:

* Defender 2000 - the reason I got the Jag. I never really played much of Plus or 2000, but the Defender Classic was outstanding.
* Battlemorph - I thought this was pretty good, myself.
* Atari Karts - Played against a friend, this game is a blast.
* Cannon Fodder - I understand this is an old Amiga port. I only ever played it on the Jag, and it may not be hugely impressive technologically, but it is also a damn fun & challenging game.
* Battlesphere - Certain notorious personalities aside, this is a very, very good game, in pretty much all respects.
* Worms - excellent
* Doom - I never really liked Doom myself, but every time I've read a comparison of the different Dooms, the Jag version is always declared the best version available.
* Zero 5 - Like 3-D Galaga. Very hard, and pretty fun.
* Rayman - this game is also fantastic.
* Protector - I haven't played Protector:SE, but Protector took my all-time favorite game & a widely appreciated classic, Defender, and did an excellent job souping it up, so to speak. Consider this a different take on 'Defender Plus'.

And of course there's Tempest 2000, but you've already mentioned that one. Also, I actually liked Highlander a lot. I never figured out how to get past a certain point (& I don't like to use strategy guides as it feels like cheating), but until I got stuck I was enjoying myself thoroughly.

[zmeston]

Ugh...Tempest3X...cheap copy of original masterpiece. No meltovision, not even the same great soundtrack, and the control didn't even feel the same. I bought T3X in hopes of repleneshing some of my Jag collection, when I had sold the Jag to get a PSX, then promptly sold T3X after a few weeks. Graphically, its close, but too many small differences made for a big disappointment overall.

We must have played radically different versions of Tempest 3X, as I would call it an improvement upon T2K in every aspect, rather than a "cheap copy": better graphics (texture-mapped webs, et cetera), a better soundtrack, and better controls (although anything is an improvement over the Jaguar's horseshoe-crab controller).


The Jaguar is an acquired taste, its for the gamer who wants to be a little eccentric, and non-conformist. It has one of the most unique game libraries to be found, and despite what others are saying, the Jaguar has a very comfortable controller, especially for us big handed Americans. It was the first controller designed to give the player a nice 'grip' to hold, and the only real problem you'll come across with the Jaguar Pad, is you'll get a sore thumb from playing too many good games!

What is "conformist" about playing and enjoying a system other than the Jaguar? Please explain.

And what is "unique" about the Jaguar library, other than its total lack of RPGs and its overall lack of quality? Please elaborate.


3DO vs. Jag? Please, this must be a joke. You wanna talk about your standard uncomfortable joypads, look no further than 3DO. 3DO flopped just as bad as Jaguar, and the Saturn, but tell me, which game system has the biggest support aftermarket right now? JAGUAR! If 3DO, and the Saturn are such awesome killer machines over the Jag, why is the Jag still being supported by a very large contigent of people who are making and producing professional quality games? I don't see this in the 3DO market, or the Saturn market.

While the 3DO controller had its notorious difficulty hitting diagonals, it was certainly more comfortable to hold than the nightmarish bulk of the Jaguar horseshoe-crab controller. The closet modern analogy to the Jaguar pad was the Xbox hamburger controller, which the public also hated, and Microsoft wisely shipped a smaller version for use by the majority of "big-handed Americans."

Being a cartridge-based and less sophisticated system than the 3DO and Saturn, it's easier for homebrewers and garage-kit developers (certainly not a "very large contingent," however) to produce games for the Jaguar. Also, the Saturn and 3DO have protection schemes that renders CD-R homebrews, at least until someone discovers a workaround, impossible to run on consumer systems. A workaround for the Dreamcast has been found, which explains that system's robust homebrew market.

I don't know that I would call the fruits of homebrewers' labors "professional-quality," except in the Golden Age market, since a single programmer/designer can equal or better the efforts of that era, what with 20 years' worth of research and knowledge to draw from.


However I still say go for the Saturn, because its the safest bet, due to its larger library, you'll more likely be able to find a game you like. Even though given the chance, the Jaguar can satisfy your needs in certain areas better than the other machines.

In which areas? Please elaborate. In what category of gaming does the Jaguar win out over the Saturn, or even the 3DO? RPGs? Nope. Driving games? Nope. Shooting games? Nope. Sports games? Nope. FPSes? Debatable, although I'd side with the 3DO (I enjoyed Killing Time as much as AvP, and 3DO also had Escape from Monster Manor, Wolf 3D, Doom, and a few others). Fighting games? Nope.

-- Z.

[Abe Honorable]

This thread is way too long for the topic, isn't it?:D
I am in the same boat as you as far as getting started on collecting (actually, this is my second go-round). I had a small collection, and just by chance the last two consoles I sold was a Jag and a saturn (actually I think there was a PSOne in there too).

But I find it strange for such a group of collectors to give a unanimous decision. I believe you used the term "collecting" somewhere in your op, is that correct?

Well if that is the case, I'll agree with each reply individually and disagree with the group's unanimous vote as a whole (man, I should run for public office!)

Boxed Adventurevisions don't cost $1500 because of their fantastic library of 4 games! Its because someone figured out that a row of LED's and a spinning mirror makes a very cheap display unit. Thus, the console is unique and highly desirable.

Likewise, the Jag machine has a loyal collector following for a reason. The motherboard on the Atari console is a micro-city of processors. It's the most technically interesting console of the last 20 years IMO. And you can get the whole cart collection pretty cheap. The great ones are Tempest 2000, AvP, and of course Battlesphere (CD) . Then there are a few good games (I actually liked Val d'Isere Skiing & Snowboarding). Later you can add the cd unit and expand your collection even more.

All new consoles today follow the same cookie cutter design. In fact, console design really became standardized with the NES/SMS/7800, I think. Now consoles are made by the generation (16-bit generation/32-bit generation, etc). Before standardization how you designed a console was hit-and-miss (vectrex? Adventurevision? VFD tabletops?)

The Saturn most certainly has better games and a far better library. And If this is going to be your only gaming console, you really don't have a choice, do you?

But since ask which console to start collecting, I'll vote Jag. O_O

[zmeston]

"Awesome gems" outside of AvP and T2K (a better version of which can be had for the PS1)? Do tell.

-- Z.

Well, I had refrained from joining in on this thread, simply because I have such little experience with the Saturn I didn't think I could fairly judge it. But it was annoying to see such a consistent slamming of the Jaguar, and I think I can easily offer up several worthwhile Jaguar games:

* Defender 2000 - the reason I got the Jag. I never really played much of Plus or 2000, but the Defender Classic was outstanding.
* Battlemorph - I thought this was pretty good, myself.
* Atari Karts - Played against a friend, this game is a blast.
* Cannon Fodder - I understand this is an old Amiga port. I only ever played it on the Jag, and it may not be hugely impressive technologically, but it is also a damn fun & challenging game.
* Battlesphere - Certain notorious personalities aside, this is a very, very good game, in pretty much all respects.
* Worms - excellent
* Doom - I never really liked Doom myself, but every time I've read a comparison of the different Dooms, the Jag version is always declared the best version available.
* Zero 5 - Like 3-D Galaga. Very hard, and pretty fun.
* Rayman - this game is also fantastic.
* Protector - I haven't played Protector:SE, but Protector took my all-time favorite game & a widely appreciated classic, Defender, and did an excellent job souping it up, so to speak. Consider this a different take on 'Defender Plus'.

And of course there's Tempest 2000, but you've already mentioned that one. Also, I actually liked Highlander a lot. I never figured out how to get past a certain point (& I don't like to use strategy guides as it feels like cheating), but until I got stuck I was enjoying myself thoroughly.

Defender 2K: emulated version of original available on PS1 (and Saturn, I think), and more fun than the updated version.

Rayman: also available for PS1.

Atari Karts: here is the one category in which the Jaguar beats the 3DO by default, unless there was a 3DO kart-racer I'm forgetting. (BC Racers?) Also, were there any Saturn kart-racers? Still, AK was an awful game by comparison to other kart-racers.

Cannon Fodder: great Brit-developed game that didn't sell for shit in America, and also available for 3DO.

Worms: great game Brit-developed game that didn't sell for shit in America, and also available for Saturn.

Doom: Jag version beats 3DO version; don't know about a Saturn version; would rather play the PS1 version.

Battlemorph: decent stuff, although I was more fond of the 3DO's Shock Wave series.

BattleSphere: a fine homebrew, but stoopid expensive.

Zero 5: second-rate shooter.

Protector: haven't played it.

Believe me, I wish the Jaguar had been a success; maybe then my strategy guide would've sold more than five copies. But its library, even including the post-demise homebrews, is still horrendous, and many of the better games are available in equal/better versions on "conformist" platforms.

-- Z.

[Gunstarhero]

We must have played radically different versions of Tempest 3X, as I would call it an improvement upon T2K in every aspect, rather than a "cheap copy": better graphics (texture-mapped webs, et cetera), a better soundtrack, and better controls (although anything is an improvement over the Jaguar's horseshoe-crab controller).

I just don't understand whats so wrong with the Jag controller. It's comfortable, with a great grip. The real legitimate complaint would be the sometimes hard-to-access-during-gameplay keypad, which even I get annoyed with, but as far as functionability of the standard buttons and d-pad, I get far less cramps with the Jag pad over the rectangle pads produced previous.


What is "conformist" about playing and enjoying a system other than the Jaguar? Please explain.

Nothing is conformist about it as long as the reasons for buying the system aren't because everyone says Jag sucks. However, if one wants to go against the popular opinion and take a chance on the Jag, your showing a little anti-conformism. I like to go against the grain sometimes, its a little GenX thing.


And what is "unique" about the Jaguar library, other than its total lack of RPGs and its overall lack of quality? Please elaborate

Well, I can tell you its not cut-n-paste library which we have today between GC,PS2, and Xbox. It has games, and you should know this, which can't be found on other machines, even if you don't like them. AvP has no equivelant on consoles, and you can't experience the thrill of this game anywhere else but on Jag. It's not just a FPS, its one of the first truly scary survival horror games. Jaguar has superior Video Pinball titles, which you may scoff at, but it truly does have the best ones IMO. Some wacky puzzlers that aren't Tetris clones, even though they aren't the greatest games, they are unique.


In which areas? Please elaborate. In what category of gaming does the Jaguar win out over the Saturn, or even the 3DO?

FPS hands down, even over the Saturn. The Jag does the FPS better when it probably shouldn't. Saturn wins out in most areas, as it should since it was produced well after Jaguar was released, and I even pointed out multiple times now that Saturn is the better choice. 3DO however, lets see it had Return Fire, Road Rash, BurnCycle and SFII:CE as its premier games, which are all awesome, no doubt but I don't think it makes it better overall than Jag. Jaguar isn't near as bad as everyone here is making it out to be. It's probably got the same good-games-to-bad-games ratio as most every other system out there. The small library seems to enhance a false perception that the Jag has more bad games than any system ever.

[Ed Oscuro]

I'd say Saturn...lots of good Capcom coin-op conversions like the Capcom Generation series (from 1-5, 1 is a 1941-1942 and that other 1942 compilation; CG2 is Makaimura/Ghouls'n Ghosts stuff, not sure if anything later than 2 was released on the Saturn,) Vampire Savior, heck even Cyberbots is on the Saturn. You've got the famous shooter Batsugun and lots of other stuff as well.

3DO and Jaguar I don't even really consider game consoles...meh.

[FrankLee]

One word. NiGHTS

YES...My old neibhor used to have a saturn and he had nights, bug, bug too, and mr. bones so those are the games ive actually got to play for the saturn. But i just bid on one on ebay thats done in 2 days so hopefully ill have a saturn in like a week. :-D

[Sauron2k3]

We must have played radically different versions of Tempest 3X, as I would call it an improvement upon T2K in every aspect, rather than a "cheap copy": better graphics (texture-mapped webs, et cetera), a better soundtrack, and better controls (although anything is an improvement over the Jaguar's horseshoe-crab controller).

Graphics, maybe you can have that one. Controls? Are you insane? Or were you born with a deformed hand? TX3 has horrendous controls compared to T2K. And I surely hope that the completely useless AI bot in TX3 isn't something else you consider an "improvement". TX3 simply does not hold a candle to T2K in the gameplay department, no matter which way you look at it.


What is "conformist" about playing and enjoying a system other than the Jaguar? Please explain.

And what is "unique" about the Jaguar library, other than its total lack of RPGs and its overall lack of quality? Please elaborate.

What's conformist is dissing the Jag for the same tired arguments that everyone else spews out on a daily basis. No one is claiming the Jag to be the greatest system ever, yet you act like it's heresy to say anything positive about it.


While the 3DO controller had its notorious difficulty hitting diagonals, it was certainly more comfortable to hold than the nightmarish bulk of the Jaguar horseshoe-crab controller. The closet modern analogy to the Jaguar pad was the Xbox hamburger controller, which the public also hated, and Microsoft wisely shipped a smaller version for use by the majority of "big-handed Americans."

So total hand comfort comes first before responsiveness and accuracy of the controller? Don't blame Atari for your undersized hands. I've seen kids have far fewer problems with the Xbox controller than what you're claiming you had with the Jag controller. And don't even try convincing anyone that daisy-chaining controllers is a good idea.


Being a cartridge-based and less sophisticated system than the 3DO and Saturn, it's easier for homebrewers and garage-kit developers (certainly not a "very large contingent," however) to produce games for the Jaguar. Also, the Saturn and 3DO have protection schemes that renders CD-R homebrews, at least until someone discovers a workaround, impossible to run on consumer systems. A workaround for the Dreamcast has been found, which explains that system's robust homebrew market.

Before reading this, I only thought you had no idea what you were talking about. Now I KNOW you have no clue. If you think the Jag is easier to develop for than the 3DO, let alone just about any other console in existence, then you really must be smoking some high dollar crack. Your entire argument just fell apart.


In which areas? Please elaborate. In what category of gaming does the Jaguar win out over the Saturn, or even the 3DO? RPGs? Nope. Driving games? Nope. Shooting games? Nope. Sports games? Nope. FPSes? Debatable, although I'd side with the 3DO (I enjoyed Killing Time as much as AvP, and 3DO also had Escape from Monster Manor, Wolf 3D, Doom, and a few others). Fighting games? Nope.

-- Z.

Killing Time even in the same league as AvP? Are you out of your mind? Have you even played AvP? Have you played the Jag and 3DO versions of Doom and Wolf3D? You really must be nuts if you think that the 3DO's pathetic library of FPS can even touch the Jag's, even if it has a larger selection. Oh yeah, where's the 3DO's homebrew library again?

[zmeston]

We must have played radically different versions of Tempest 3X, as I would call it an improvement upon T2K in every aspect, rather than a "cheap copy": better graphics (texture-mapped webs, et cetera), a better soundtrack, and better controls (although anything is an improvement over the Jaguar's horseshoe-crab controller).

Graphics, maybe you can have that one. Controls? Are you insane? Or were you born with a deformed hand? TX3 has horrendous controls compared to T2K. And I surely hope that the completely useless AI bot in TX3 isn't something else you consider an "improvement". TX3 simply does not hold a candle to T2K in the gameplay department, no matter which way you look at it.

I'm not insane (at least, not yet legally declared as such), and my hands are, thankfully, not deformed. I simply found TX3 to have better control than T2K.

As for the AI bot, while I didn't notice a drastic difference between them, you've inspired me to go back and play the two versions again to look for this.



What is "conformist" about playing and enjoying a system other than the Jaguar? Please explain.

And what is "unique" about the Jaguar library, other than its total lack of RPGs and its overall lack of quality? Please elaborate.

What's conformist is dissing the Jag for the same tired arguments that everyone else spews out on a daily basis. No one is claiming the Jag to be the greatest system ever, yet you act like it's heresy to say anything positive about it.

So you'd like to hear an entirely different set of reasons as to why the Jaguar's game library is atrocious? Personally, I think the "tired" reasons are more than enough.

It's not heresy to like the Jaguar despite its faults. We all have our guilty gaming pleasures. I do, however, think it's silly to represent the Jaguar's software library as anything but mostly crap.



While the 3DO controller had its notorious difficulty hitting diagonals, it was certainly more comfortable to hold than the nightmarish bulk of the Jaguar horseshoe-crab controller. The closet modern analogy to the Jaguar pad was the Xbox hamburger controller, which the public also hated, and Microsoft wisely shipped a smaller version for use by the majority of "big-handed Americans."

So total hand comfort comes first before responsiveness and accuracy of the controller? Don't blame Atari for your undersized hands. I've seen kids have far fewer problems with the Xbox controller than what you're claiming you had with the Jag controller. And don't even try convincing anyone that daisy-chaining controllers is a good idea.

I blame Atari not for my average-sized grasping appendages -- credit for those goes to my ancestors -- but for releasing an absurdly large controller that was very uncomfortable for a considerable majority of players to use, myself included. Microsoft's Xbox controller had the same size issues, and Microsoft, to its credit, quickly addressed the issue with the S-Controller, while keeping the hamburger controller in circulation for the large-mitted players who prefer it. If the size problem was strictly a Japanese-gamer issue, why is Microsoft now bundling the S-Controller with the hardware instead of the original model? Because it's much more inclusive.

Daisy-chaining controllers was a clever cost-cutting idea, but certainly not a good one. No argument there.



Being a cartridge-based and less sophisticated system than the 3DO and Saturn, it's easier for homebrewers and garage-kit developers (certainly not a "very large contingent," however) to produce games for the Jaguar. Also, the Saturn and 3DO have protection schemes that renders CD-R homebrews, at least until someone discovers a workaround, impossible to run on consumer systems. A workaround for the Dreamcast has been found, which explains that system's robust homebrew market.

Before reading this, I only thought you had no idea what you were talking about. Now I KNOW you have no clue. If you think the Jag is easier to develop for than the 3DO, let alone just about any other console in existence, then you really must be smoking some high dollar crack. Your entire argument just fell apart.

By virtue of my three-year stint at a game-development company, I don't consider myself uneducated on this topic. If you have development experience with the Jaguar, please enlighten me as to the particulars. One of our in-house programmers at WD insisted that the Saturn was far more challenging to program than the Jaguar, and he showed me many vivid examples of this. I'm always willing to admit when I'm wrong, so please prove me wrong.



In which areas? Please elaborate. In what category of gaming does the Jaguar win out over the Saturn, or even the 3DO? RPGs? Nope. Driving games? Nope. Shooting games? Nope. Sports games? Nope. FPSes? Debatable, although I'd side with the 3DO (I enjoyed Killing Time as much as AvP, and 3DO also had Escape from Monster Manor, Wolf 3D, Doom, and a few others). Fighting games? Nope.

-- Z.

Killing Time even in the same league as AvP? Are you out of your mind? Have you even played AvP? Have you played the Jag and 3DO versions of Doom and Wolf3D? You really must be nuts if you think that the 3DO's pathetic library of FPS can even touch the Jag's, even if it has a larger selection. Oh yeah, where's the 3DO's homebrew library again?

I mentioned in my previous post why the 3DO has no homebrew library; its CD protection hasn't yet been worked around. I should have also mentioned, however, that the Jaguar also has a homebrew market for the simple fact that it's an Atari console, and the Atari name naturally inspires a great deal of passion in hardcore games and homebrewers. (Sega is another company with passionate fans, which explains the Dreamcast's bustling homebrew/hack scene.)

Yes, I've played AvP to completion several times, as I wrote a chapter on the game for the Atari Jaguar Official Gamers Guide. And, yes, I've played the Jaguar and 3DO versions of Doom and Wolf 3D; as I mentioned in an earlier post, the Jag Doom was indisputably superior to the 3DO. (Wolf3D was about even.) Of course, the PS1 version that shipped two years later was indisputably superior to the Jaguar version, which is one of my earlier points; most of the good Jaguar games are available on other consoles with better overall libraries. I certainly wouldn't call AvP, by itself, reason enough to purchase a Jaguar.

-- Z.

[Kid Fenris]

What is "conformist" about playing and enjoying a system other than the Jaguar? Please explain.

And what is "unique" about the Jaguar library, other than its total lack of RPGs and its overall lack of quality? Please elaborate.

What's conformist is dissing the Jag for the same tired arguments that everyone else spews out on a daily basis. No one is claiming the Jag to be the greatest system ever, yet you act like it's heresy to say anything positive about it.


Then again, those "tired" arguments are accurate. The Jaguar's library is replete with awful stuff, including some of the biggest gaming embarrassments of the past ten years, and nearly all of the system's decent titles are either dated or, as zmeston has pointed out, available in an improved form on another console. The Jag isn't the worst system ever, of course, but it almost looks like it when compared to the Saturn and its well-rounded share of excellent games.

The allure of non-conformity is hardly a good reason to like a system, and I've always thought it the sign of a weak argument when someone starts accusing the opposition of being "sheep" or "conformists." If you can't find more sensible grounds on which to defend a system, you're not really doing your side a favor by resorting to such inane tactics.

Still, it's interesting to learn that someone actually enjoys Atari Karts. I'll just sit back and see if anyone admits to liking Trevor McFur in the Crescent Galaxy.

One more thing: On the FPS front, the Saturn has Powerslave as well as amazing translations of Quake and Duken Nukem 3D. Those are equal to, if not better than, the Jag's examples of the genre.

[K3V]

Well I've got three Jags but no Saturn, so I guess I'm in the minority here. :)

But that's not to say that the Saturn isn't a fantastic system - it is. It's got a library of great games that is much more diverse than the limited library (80 or so games) of the Jaguar. Nights is a masterpiece and the 4MB cart allows some fantastic 2D gaming, most notably in the Capcom arcade fighters that were released. Not to mention excellent games like Panzer Dragoon Saga (which I sold for $40 back in the day - D'oh!), Saturn Bomberman, and Burning Rangers. Man, I really need to pick up a Saturn again one of these days :)

That said, I've just gotten into the Jaguar scene much more than I ever did with the Saturn and feel more a part of what has happened and is happening with the Jag (playtesting, hosting JagFest, etc, etc) which has kept me much more involved with the Jag over the years. My roots are much deeper in the Jag community than it could ever possibly be with the Saturn, which would explain the abundance of Jaguar lack of Saturn in my collection.

To be fair, the Jaguar does have it's fair share of stinkers, and has been lambasted all over the media for it. But if you look past the bad, there is quite a bit of good to be had in the Jaguar library. Battlesphere. Iron Soldier 1& 2, Battlemorph. Tempest 2000, etc, are all excellent titles and are more than worthy of spending the $30 or so on a Jag to play.

Considering both consoles can be had for next to nothing these days, I'd get both and enjoy the great titles on each console.

-Kevin

[Arqueologia_Digital]

My order of preference (very similar to Joe)
Neo Geo
Saturn
Jaguar
3DO

[Anonymous]

Also, the Saturn and 3DO have protection schemes that renders CD-R homebrews, at least until someone discovers a workaround, impossible to run on consumer systems.
Just thought I'd point out that while the 3DO may have a protection scheme that prevents homebrews from working, it can and does read CD-Rs and *ahem* backups.

[zmeston]

Also, the Saturn and 3DO have protection schemes that renders CD-R homebrews, at least until someone discovers a workaround, impossible to run on consumer systems.
Just thought I'd point out that while the 3DO may have a protection scheme that prevents homebrews from working, it can and does read CD-Rs and *ahem* backups.

Not "may." Does. 3DO debug units have a switch to toggle the hardware between recognizing encrypted (production) and unencrypted (early beta) discs. Pirated copies of 3DO games work because the encryption is copied along with the data. (I didn't say it was effective encryption!) A 3DO homebrewer would need to determine how the encryption works, and burn a CD-R that replicated the encryption, then use that "encrypted" CD-R as a "master" to burn additional copies.

I hear that Good Deal Games is close to announcing a couple of 3DO titles, however, so either they've licked the problem or figured out a workaround.

-- Z.

[Anonymous]

I've never tested a 3DO homebrew (although I'd like to), hence the "may", but I'll take your word for it. Seems if you are able to copy the encryption via a CD burner, homebrewers would be able to just copy whatever file they need to 'unlock' the 3DO and paste it into the game, unless of course they want to be completely legit.

My favorite copy protection scheme is Sega's Genny scheme which required a set of characters in each game that when placed in a certain way spelled out SEGA, thus making it illegal to copy LOL

[zmeston]

I've never tested a 3DO homebrew (although I'd like to), hence the "may", but I'll take your word for it. Seems if you are able to copy the encryption via a CD burner, homebrewers would be able to just copy whatever file they need to 'unlock' the 3DO and paste it into the game, unless of course they want to be completely legit.

Again, I'm hoping that GDG will clear up the encryption issue for me (and us) -- although they might simply have encrypted betas instead of unencrypted ones, and so haven't needed to deal with the issue at all.

I've never tested a homebrew, either (heh), but I have a few 3DO beta discs that only work on my debug unit with the switch flipped to "Unencrypted." Perhaps that switch is simply telling the 3DO not to look for an encryption file on the CD, as you theorize. If someone out there is a hardware geek, I may be willing to let you take apart my debug unit and find out how it ticks, if you promise to share your info with the world; drop me an email.

EDIT: I spoke with Good Deal Games, and their 3DO betas do NOT run on consumer units, nor has the GDG team had any luck cracking 3DO encryption. In short, 3DO homebrews ain't never gonna happen.

-- Z.

[Zaxxon]

The Jaguar controller is NOT larger than the PSX controller. Get out a ruler and measure the width across both. They're the same. The Jag's center part is filled in with the keypad and that makes it look bigger than the PSX's which is open in the middle. If you can grip a PSX controller just fine and can't grip a Jag controller comfortably then the problem is in your mind, not your hands. The Jag controller freaked out gamers too young to remember the INTV, 5200, CV. I remember the constant comments, "whoa dood, how am I supposed to push all dose keypad buttons while playin a game dood?!". As if every game for the system uses the keypad when it was really just the PC ports.

I like how the Jag pad design was reviled as "horrid" and the N64's tri-pronged z trigger mess was "genius". :roll:

[Aswald]

Unless you can get the Jaguar somewhere, with games, for an unusually small amount of money, go with the Saturn. The problem with the Jaguar, as with the Atari 7800, was a lack of decent software support. The Saturn's abilities were also put to better use.

[zmeston]

The Jaguar controller is NOT larger than the PSX controller. Get out a ruler and measure the width across both. They're the same. The Jag's center part is filled in with the keypad and that makes it look bigger than the PSX's which is open in the middle. If you can grip a PSX controller just fine and can't grip a Jag controller comfortably then the problem is in your mind, not your hands. The Jag controller freaked out gamers too young to remember the INTV, 5200, CV. I remember the constant comments, "whoa dood, how am I supposed to push all dose keypad buttons while playin a game dood?!". As if every game for the system uses the keypad when it was really just the PC ports.

I like how the Jag pad design was reviled as "horrid" and the N64's tri-pronged z trigger mess was "genius". :roll:

I can grip a PlayStation controller comfortably. I can't grip a Jaguar controller comfortably. It's not a hallucination, and it's not an issue of width. It's that the PlayStation controller is very light and designed to fit comfortably in the hands, whereas the Jaguar is a big, thick hunk of controller that resembles a horseshoe crab. Also, the PS controller's action buttons (except SELECT and START) are immediately accessible from the fingertips and very responsive, while the Jaguar's number pad is awkward and ill-suited to fast-action games (especially with overlays in place), unless you're somehow able to work the aciton buttons with your right index finger and the number pad with your right thumb. The PS controller also has a much better D-pad.

The N64's controller was no winner, as evidenced by the fact that the GameCube controller is much closer to the Dual Shock 2 in design, but it was also better than the Jaguar's controller.

I still can't believe we're actually debating the "merits" of the Jaguar...

-- Z.

[Atari7800]

I'm probably way out of my league here, but doesn't the Jaguar have a Motorola 68000 16-bit chip as its CPU? I understand that one of the main gripes with the Jaguar's fairly unimpressive library is that few of the games really utilized the Jag's special graphics processors. Perhaps that's why many of the Jag's games look like 16-bit (the CPU is being used while the other GPU's are just sitting there.)

Whatever the case, the Motorola 68000 series is a very well documented chip (having appeared in the Genesis, Neo-Geo, and numerous computers) which would explain why programmers have warmed to it (aside from the cart/cd encryption issue.) The 3DO is harder to program, and the Saturn is an absolute nightmare (talk about a bunch of underutilized chips!)

Go with Saturn if you want the BEST games of the three consoles... Go with Jaguar if you like its unique history, its cart-based media, its homebrews, and its select bunch of good games. 3DO is cheap and interesting and has a better and larger selection (overall) of games, but its not as cool as the other two. :D

[BenT]

Go with Jaguar if you like its unique history, its cart-based media, its homebrews, and its select bunch of good games.
That's a really, really diplomatic way of saying its library mostly sucks. :)

[Zaxxon]

Go with Jaguar if you like its unique history, its cart-based media, its homebrews, and its select bunch of good games.
That's a really, really diplomatic way of saying its library mostly sucks. :)

No, it's a really diplomatic way of saying get a Jag if you really want to play old Amiga games.

[Zaxxon]

It's not a hallucination, and it's not an issue of width. It's that the PlayStation controller is very light and designed to fit comfortably in the hands, whereas the Jaguar is a big, thick hunk of controller that resembles a horseshoe crab. Also, the PS controller's action buttons (except SELECT and START) are immediately accessible from the fingertips and very responsive, while the Jaguar's number pad is awkward and ill-suited to fast-action games (especially with overlays in place), unless you're somehow able to work the aciton buttons with your right index finger and the number pad with your right thumb. The PS controller also has a much better D-pad.
-- Z.

Have you ever tried the Jag Pro Controller they came out with later? I have one but I like them both. The Pro-controller has a different feeling D-pad, 6 face buttons instead of 3 , L-R shoulder buttons and a slimmer design.

[zmeston]

It's not a hallucination, and it's not an issue of width. It's that the PlayStation controller is very light and designed to fit comfortably in the hands, whereas the Jaguar is a big, thick hunk of controller that resembles a horseshoe crab. Also, the PS controller's action buttons (except SELECT and START) are immediately accessible from the fingertips and very responsive, while the Jaguar's number pad is awkward and ill-suited to fast-action games (especially with overlays in place), unless you're somehow able to work the aciton buttons with your right index finger and the number pad with your right thumb. The PS controller also has a much better D-pad.
-- Z.

Have you ever tried the Jag Pro Controller they came out with later? I have one but I like them both. The Pro-controller has a different feeling D-pad, 6 face buttons instead of 3 , L-R shoulder buttons and a slimmer design.

Yep, I have a Pro Controller, and it's considerably better than the original, but I thought the "rules" of the debate precluded us from discussing anything other than the default hardware. If not, then we can also cite the PlayStation's Dual Shock, which is nature's perfect controller, brought down from Heaven by a host of angels. Okay, maybe not that good, but it's really nice.

-- Z.

[Gunstarhero]

The Jaguar controller is very comfortable, with its nice hand grips on the side. Whats wrong with the d-pad? The only problem I have with the Jag d-pad is that it's totally smooth, so you have to keep it clean or your thumb may slide around a bit on it, I wish it had a little texture to it. Other than that I think its positioned in a comfortable place. The argument against the keypad is a legitimate one, but fortunately a small amount of games actually used it. I still have problems with Star Raiders on the 5200 trying to access all those keys in a timely manner.

The PSX controller is a nice design all thanks to Nintendo. I don't remember Atari ripping off designs to create the Jaguar controller, and I don't remember Atari riding the back of another corporation to create the Jaguar hardware. Atari didn't have the deep pockets of Sony or even Sega, I think they did pretty good with the Jag.

[zmeston]

The Jaguar controller is very comfortable, with its nice hand grips on the side. Whats wrong with the d-pad? The only problem I have with the Jag d-pad is that it's totally smooth, so you have to keep it clean or your thumb may slide around a bit on it, I wish it had a little texture to it. Other than that I think its positioned in a comfortable place. The argument against the keypad is a legitimate one, but fortunately a small amount of games actually used it. I still have problems with Star Raiders on the 5200 trying to access all those keys in a timely manner.

The PSX controller is a nice design all thanks to Nintendo. I don't remember Atari ripping off designs to create the Jaguar controller, and I don't remember Atari riding the back of another corporation to create the Jaguar hardware. Atari didn't have the deep pockets of Sony or even Sega, I think they did pretty good with the Jag.

So your argument is that the PlayStation (not PSX) controller is inferior to the Jaguar controller because Sony "ripped off" and "rode the back of" Nintendo? Hmmm. Or is your argument that Atari is a more "noble" company? 'Cause Atari ripped off and rode the back of Magnavox, since it was proven in court that Nolan Bushnell had seen a demonstration of the Odyssey well before the release of Pong.

Atari did a'ight with the internal hardware of the Jaguar; it was the horrid library and poor marketing (and painful "64-bit" claim that no one ever bought into) that turned the system into an unfortunate denouement.

-- Z.

[Gunstarhero]

So your argument is that the PlayStation (not PSX) controller is inferior to the Jaguar controller because Sony "ripped off" and "rode the back of" Nintendo? Hmmm

I didn't say the PSX controller was inferior at all, I clearly stated its a nice design. Sony doesn't deserve any points for innovation however, unlike Atari and the Jag.


Or is your argument that Atari is a more "noble" company? 'Cause Atari ripped off and rode the back of Magnavox, since it was proven in court that Nolan Bushnell had seen a demonstration of the Odyssey well before the release of Pong.


Yeah, I know that, and as before I clearly stated Atari didn't rip off another company to develop the Jaguar, unlike Sony and the PSX, and you don't need a court case to prove that. Sure I have a certain respect for Atari for being innovators in the game world, they always were, and only Nintendo has come close to Atari in trying to invent new ways to play games. Atari was trying to create new experiences for gamers right up to the end, with the VR headset and VoiceModem for the Jaguar, even though they didn't work out, they were trying. Where has Sony Corp innovated anything in the game industry? Besides Marketing I can't think of anything major, surely it isn't backwards compatibility(5200), or the Dual Shock(N64 with Rumble was first).

[zmeston]

Yeah, I know that, and as before I clearly stated Atari didn't rip off another company to develop the Jaguar, unlike Sony and the PSX, and you don't need a court case to prove that.

If Atari hadn't ripped off Magnavox, it wouldn't have existed to create the Jaguar, since its first coin-op (Computer Space -- also a rip-off!) was a failure.

Props to Atari for all of its later innovations, but it's ridiculous to slam Sony because of an aborted business deal. At least Sony and Nintendo tried to work together, whereas Atari just ripped off Pong outright. (It's also interesting that Atari later threatened to sue the "innovative" Nintendo -- and even took racist potshots! -- as the latter company took over the industry.)


Where has Sony Corp innovated anything in the game industry? Besides Marketing I can't think of anything major, surely it isn't backwards compatibility(5200), or the Dual Shock(N64 with Rumble was first).

I thought the 7800 was backward-compatible, not the 5200, but I digress. Let me try to interpret your argument: the Jaguar is a good system because Atari was an innovative company, and the PlayStation is a bad system because Sony isn't innovative and "stole" ideas from Nintendo? (We seem to have lost the Saturn somewhere along the line.)

-- Z.

[Atari7800]

Sony brought the video game market screaming into the 3-D realm (they weren't the first with 3-D console games, of course, but they pushed it the hardest.) It might not be innovation or even that great for gaming (debatable) but you can't deny Sony's massive contribution ot gaming.

The 5200 was backwards-compatible with the 2600 when using the 2600 adaptor, sold seperately (like the CV)

[zmeston]

The 5200 was backwards-compatible with the 2600 when using the 2600 adaptor, sold seperately (like the CV)

I thought he meant built-in, no-adapter-required backward compatibility of the 7800 and PS2 variety. "My bad," as the kids like to say. Heh.

-- Z.

[k8track]

I've never played any of those other systems, unfortunately, but I do have a few thoughts on the Jaguar. I see so many people slamming the controllers, which I don't understand, because I absolutely love them. It's like holding a big, comfy steering wheel. Before the Jag, I always hated control pads and never could hold them the "right" way, preferring (and still prefer with the NES and SNES) to use them "Jeff Healey" style.

The Jag, to me, encapsulates wasted potential. It wasn't any better than an SNES. I sure didn't see those 64 bits being used. Still, I really enjoyed a lot of the games, even if they were done better elsewhere in several cases. My first two games were Atari Karts and IWar, and played them incessantly for the first few months. Of course Tempest 2000 and AvP rocked my world when I got them as well. Ultimately, though, my interest in the system died out (much like my interest in the 7800 did). Nothing has really compelled me to return to it since.

@Zmeston--I bought your player's guide back in the day and thoroughly enjoyed it. I must have been one of those five people!