Hypothetical problem: SNES image tearing on HDTV

[Ed Oscuro]

Here's the scenario:


Hi. I am trying to play some old classics. However on my sony HDTV I keep getting tears in the screen when playing. I have tried svideo and regular av.The tears occur when movement occurs on screen. Any suggestions?

I have tried the console on multiple tv's and with multiple games. The tearing that is occuring is only happening on the Sony KV-36HS500. I called Sony Tech support and we ran through adjusting all the settings of the TV. Nothing helped. I have also tried AV plugs, Svideo, and an RF switch. All produce the tearing. I also ran my RF connection through a VCR. The tearing was still present. Any suggestions?

Furthermore:


I have the following systems: Xbox, Gamecube, PS2, Dreamcast, Super Nes, Nintendo 64, and Dreamcast. This tearing only happens with the Super Nes. If I plug the same exact av plug into my Nintendo 64 the tearing that occurs with the Super Nes does not occur.

I have tried the console on multiple tv's and with multiple games. The tearing that is occuring is only happening on the Sony KV-36HS500. I called Sony Tech support and we ran through adjusting all the settings of the TV. Nothing helped. I have also tried AV plugs, Svideo, and an RF switch. All produce the tearing. I also ran my RF connection through a VCR. The tearing was still present. Any suggestions?

In other words, this certainly does not occur when they're using the N64 and the same plug. I'm wondering if maybe the cord isn't quite right for the SNES (if that makes sense, not "backwards compatible" however odd that sounds) or the SNES itself is malfunctioning.

Oh, and here's the original thread:

http://www.forumplanet.com/classicgaming/topic.asp?fid=1452&tid=1057314

[Raedon]

He should take it threw a VCR and see if it cleans up the signal. My friend who can actually afford a HDTV has a crappy brown SNES with the original AV cable that came with it.. no problems (except he borrowed Super Metroid a month ago and hasn't finished it yet >:( )

[Ed Oscuro]

http://www.forumplanet.com/classicgaming/topic.asp?fid=1452&tid=1057314

Done (I posted a quote, just left out the bit about Super Metroid since it wouldn't be the same without that special flame smiley, and I rewrote "Through" for you ;)

Thanks for the suggestion!

[wberdan]

it sounds to me like the progressive scan scaler in the television is having a poor time locking on to the "frame rate" of the SNES. you could do what raedon suggests, which is way cheaper, or you could get a good used stand alone progressive scan scaler and use it for the snes and also your vcr or any other input. that will only work if the tv has a 15 pin din connector though, i believe.

willie

[Ed Oscuro]

Here's what the fellow's telling me:


I ran the signal through a VCR. I ran it both using av plugs, and the antennae/rf switch. All of these produced the tearing. REMBMBER: None of my 5 other consoles produce tears on this TV,Using the same plugs with my Nintendo 64 on the same tv did not produce tears, and on 3 other television using the same plugs and Super Nintendo there is no tearing.HELP!!!!! I want to play on my HDTV.

It seems to me as well that the HDTV is, like you've said, having trouble locking onto the frame rate of the SNES. I was thinking "something wrong with the SNES," but I didn't think of that, which makes me feel a bit foolish since it seems quite logical. What about the resolution, though?

So what's the framerate of the SNES, and would its resolution be different from that of the other TVs (I found myself thinking "but TV resolution's standard, then I remembered 1080i and the fact that TV signals are merely signals to the CRT's electron tube to write lines horizontally and vertically)

[Ed Oscuro]

This does not bode well for progressive scan TVs, then. Hopefully, it's just a problem caused by an immature progressive scanning, um, mechanism--this technology might need some tuning. It would be awful to require a whole other component to make your old consoles work properly o_O

Add: I added a line from his original message which I should have included, since it gives some critical information:


I have tried the console on multiple tv's and with multiple games. The tearing that is occuring is only happening on the Sony KV-36HS500. I called Sony Tech support and we ran through adjusting all the settings of the TV. Nothing helped. I have also tried AV plugs, Svideo, and an RF switch. All produce the tearing. I also ran my RF connection through a VCR. The tearing was still present. Any suggestions?

Now I feel lazy as well as unclever ;0

[wberdan]

Here's what the fellow's telling me:


I ran the signal through a VCR. I ran it both using av plugs, and the antennae/rf switch. All of these produced the tearing. REMBMBER: None of my 5 other consoles produce tears on this TV,Using the same plugs with my Nintendo 64 on the same tv did not produce tears, and on 3 other television using the same plugs and Super Nintendo there is no tearing.HELP!!!!! I want to play on my HDTV.

It seems to me as well that the HDTV is, like you've said, having trouble locking onto the frame rate of the SNES. I was thinking "something wrong with the SNES," but I didn't think of that, which makes me feel a bit foolish since it seems quite logical. What about the resolution, though?

So what's the framerate of the SNES, and would its resolution be different from that of the other TVs (I found myself thinking "but TV resolution's standard, then I remembered 1080i and the fact that TV signals are merely signals to the CRT's electron tube to write lines horizontally and vertically)

ed, problems like this are somewhat typical of lower end HDTV's.. they use junk parts for the progressive scan filtering and it amounts to some problems locking on with certain sources. trust me, if his television has a problem locking onto the snes then he will experience problems with other sources in time... it might just be that the snes 'frame rate' really magnifies the problem in the progressive scan feature of his television.
it is my personal opinion that the only way he will eliminate this is by using a different television, or using a high quality progressive scan unit (note however that in order to use the seperate unit his television MUST have a bypass input for its progressive scan or it wont work. this bypass is usually in the form of a 15 pin din input just like a computer monitor uses). even with a very good stand alone unit (i use a $500+/- silicon image ISCAN PRO) there will be some problems locking on SOMETIMES. progressive scan detection isnt perfect, but the better units have fewer problems.
im sorry i cant be of more assistance, but i really believe that he has those two options- use a different television for that snes source, or use a stand alone progressive scan unit.

willie

[wberdan]

This does not bode well for progressive scan TVs, then. Hopefully, it's just a problem caused by an immature progressive scanning, um, mechanism--this technology might need some tuning. It would be awful to require a whole other component to make your old consoles work properly o_O


unfortunetely, when you buy into new technology youre bound to run into problems with early designs. please note that some tv's that are very affordable do not have these kinds of problems., you really have to shop around and do your homework. even then there is no guarantee.

willie

[Gamereviewgod]

I have no trouble with any of my systems on my HDTV. I had an issue with a AV port, but that cleared up. Everything is hooked up either via AV, S-video, or component. I do have one question though: What does he mean by "tearing?"

[wberdan]

I have no trouble with any of my systems on my HDTV. I had an issue with a AV port, but that cleared up. Everything is hooked up either via AV, S-video, or component. I do have one question though: What does he mean by "tearing?"

if you havnt seen it, it is somewhat hard to explain. i believe the problem he is talking about either makes the picture drop out momentarily or makes the picture break up into many small lines for moments/seconds/minutes (depending on how serious it is)- those are typical of when progressive scan cant lock on to a fast moving image

willie

[Gamereviewgod]

those are typical of when progressive scan cant lock on to a fast moving image



But should it NOT be in progressive scan mode when it's only hooked up S-video?? Mine only uses progressive scan for component inputs, nothing else. Of course, TV's can be different....[/b]

[wberdan]

those are typical of when progressive scan cant lock on to a fast moving image



But should it NOT be in progressive scan mode when it's only hooked up S-video?? Mine only uses progressive scan for component inputs, nothing else. Of course, TV's can be different....[/b]

no i believe most HDTV's will scale everything to 480 lines progressive unless you use the 15 pin RGB connector.. that is *usually* the only way to bypass it. i admit though that may not be completely true- i havn't kept up with the amount of HDTV's coming to market

willie

[Ed Oscuro]

But should it NOT be in progressive scan mode when it's only hooked up S-video??

I'll ask him about that as well. I do think, though, that this sort of feature is always on, maybe not on some models, but possibly this one.

[BenT]

Check out this thread (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=237684) I made at the (usually very useful) AVS Forum.

In short, some low-res games lag on my roommate's Sony XBR800. R-Type becomes unenjoyable.

[Ed Oscuro]

Well, that just reinforces my suspicion that it's something to do with the new hardware on these TVs not performing as well as it should. 30-60ms lag isn't acceptable for R-Type.

Thanks for the post, Ben, I found it quite useful. Blasted Sony...

[Zaxxon]

Is it tearing mostly just at the top of the screen? If so, I doubt the problem is with your TV if it only does this with the SNES. I had the same thing happen when I converted one of my CV's to A/V output. When the video signal is too hot and there aren't resisters in line to step it down to the proper level I would get that tearing effect. Your SNES's video output electronics may have drifted out of it's original values or a resister went bad and that's causing it's signal to be hotter than normal. Your HDTV may just be more sensitive to this hotter signal than your other TV's.

[BenT]

Yeah. While he did say he tried it on multiple TVs, it might behoove him to try an altogether different SNES unit to see if it also exhibits the problem.

[Ed Oscuro]

I agree completely, and while I'll mention it I don't think he's got one lying around. Update/clarification:


You can change DRC modes to interlaced, cinemotion, or progressive scan. But that doesn't help at all. I called Nintedo this evening, they couldn't help. It is obviously the Sony. I will call Sony again. See if I can rephrase the question. Nintendo thought it was a fps not matching refresh of Sony crt monitor.

[davidbrit2]

Well, image tearing occurs when the video framebuffer gets changed while the video beam is drawing the current image. In other words, a split appears, where the upper portion is "older" than the bottom of the image. The fact that an HDTV would be doing this is extremely weird. That would suggest that it receives an entire analog field, decodes it, and stores it digitally in a framebuffer, while the CRT just asynchronously loops through everything in the framebuffer, drawing everything on screen. Basically, your analog frame is finished being sent from the SNES right about the time the new image starts drawing (the point of the tear, more or less.) I guess the HDTV doesn't bother syncing its own video beam with the beginning of frames coming from an analog source.

[Anthony1]

This is amazing. I just bought a SNES the other day through Ebay, and when I hooked it up to my Sony HDTV, I'm having the same problem.

With some of the games I have, it's more noticeable than others. Like in Super Mario World, it's really noticeable, but in some of the other games it isn't as noticeable.

I'm using a S-Video cable that was actually purchashed for my GameCube. I haven't tried using regular plugs. I have used this same S-Video cable for my N64 and haven't seen any problems.

Later today, I need to test out this SNES on a regular TV and see if it has the same problem.

I have the Sony 51 inch widescreen HDTV.

I had a feeling that either the TV was having a hard time with the video signal, or I got a SNES that has seen it's better days.

But after reading this post, I'm thinking it may have something to do with the way Sony does it's HDTV's.

[davidbrit2]

Yeah, it's got to be the way it's receiving the analog video signal. The only way you would se the image tearing is if it's not scanning the signal in real time, i.e. storing it in a frame buffer. Apparently that's what it's doing, and it's not properly syncing its own video beam to the beginning and ends of the actual frame.

[Anthony1]

Also, I would have to say that what is happening, isn't exactly "tearing" as is being described.

It's basically impossible for me to explain with words without seeing it for yourself, but it's like the picture is splitting at the bottom 1/4th of the screen for a split second, and then returning, but even that doesn't really explain what is actually happening.

It's like, if you look at the picture on the screen, in the bottom 1/4 of the screen, starting from the right side and then moving left, is some kind of weird video anomoly. You know how sometimes when you watch TV on a really old crappy TV you will have a 2 or 3 inch translucent band that goes up the picture over and over and over that you can see in the background?

Well it kinda looks like one of those bands are starting from right to left on the bottom 1/4 section of the screen.

Anyways, that the best way that I can describe it. Although I probably did a lousy job.

If I had a digital camera I would try to take a picture of the screen with that effect on it.

[Anthony1]

I recently hooked my SNES up to my Sony HDTV via the VCR and it seemed to correct this problem SOME of the time.

It's weird, I saw this problem really bad on Super Mario World and Gradius III. So when I hooked up my SNES through the VCR and then to the Sony HDTV, I checked those two games first. Well, neither one had a problem whatsoever.

Then I tried it with Contra III, and that game had tons of problems.

I also have another HDTV that I have hooked up my SNES to, and on that TV I've had no problems at all.

And on the Sony, the only problem I've had with any of the systems that I've hooked it up to, is with the SNES. None of the other systems have had any problems at all. I've hooked up the XBOX, GameCube, Genesis, Saturn, N64, Dreamcast and TurboGrafx-16 all up to it with no problems whatsoever. I don't have a regular composite or S-Video cable for my Jaguar, so I haven't tried that yet. I just got a PSone off of Ebay, but I haven't recieved that yet, so I haven't tried that system on it either.

But for whatever reason Super Mario World and Gradius didn't have any problems going through the VCR, but Contra III was virtually unplayable.