Where Sega messed up with Sonic

[Diosoth]

This has been a sort of recent discussion on the Sega forums- Sonic the Hedgehog's "canon" story. Not that there is much to begin with, but lately, Sonic Team's been just going off in random directions. But it seems as if there are two separate GAME continuities running right now. This diesn't count comic books, cartoons, whatever, which are all separate.

Start with the Genesis games. Move on to the Sonic Adventure series, Heroes, Shadow the Hedgehog, Sonic 2006, the storybook Wii series and Unleashed.

Second canon? Ooh... probably started with Sonic 1 for Master System, ported to Game Gear. Basic rule seems to be that anything on the handheld systems is separate from the consoles. Mostly. The Sonic Advance games seem to replace Adventure in this canon, with Sonic Battle and Sonic Rivals following up. This canon seems to "officially" exist with Bioware basing Sonic Chronicles almost entirely as a sequel to Sonic Battle, which itself was a sequel to the Advance series.

Things tend to pop up in one game that are never referenced again. Contradictions happen constantly. The real deal breaker here is Blaze the Cat. In Sonic Rush, she's a princess from another dimension. In Sonic 2006, she's from the future. This isn't really possible within one canon. Not to have two separate but the same characters. Eggman Nega is another- in rush he's from another dimension. Rivals, from the future. Then Silver shows up in Rivals again.

Rush can't fit in with Rivals. Forgoing goofy explanations, and Sonic 2006's erased events ending, it's possible that two Blaze the Cats exist separate. Ignore HOW they exist.

Sonic Heroes contradicts Knuckles Chaotix. Charmy is 16 in the KC instructions, but is only 6 in Heroes. The Chaotix have never met Knuckles. MAYBE this old game takes place more recently?

Rouge the Bat. Two different personalities. In the console canon she's mostly intelligent and actually takes her job as a secret agent seriously. In the handheld canon, she's written as a creepy pedophile who flirts with numerous underage boys, she has no brain whatsoever and is always thinking about stealing stuff. It's why people draw gangbang pics of her, because she behaves like a total whore. In short, the handhelds treat her as most any Japanese game treats women.

And why has this happened? Because Sega kept crapping out Sonic games. They hired other companies to make them. They've put out, since and counting Sonic Adventure, 10 console titles and 9 handheld titles. 19 games in about 10 years, not counting re-releases or compilations. No thought to the story, no tought to making the games of quality, just rush them to market. Not that this is new... the Game Gear titles, Sonic Fighters, etc. Put out a game with a meaningless story and hope no one notices.

[Graham Mitchell]

Sega screwed up with Sonic when Yuji Naka left, and Sonic's been demoted to an icon to slap on the cover of overpriced shovelware. This is not news. His list of retarded friends is nebulous, and the characters are extraneous, at best.

But why do they keep making 6 Sonic titles a year? Because people buy them. From the detailed knowledge you're providing about the games, it appears that you bought them too. If you don't like the way they're going, vote with your pocketbook, dude. Or just grow up and realize that Sonic has become a franchise for children, and accept that it's not going to provide much of interest to you. A children's franchise can't possibly be expected to have a coherent storyline, especially when it involves anthropomorphic furry animals chasing after rings in the woods. Accept this. It will prevent you from being disappointed when you drop $60 on this shit.

[Sonicwolf]

I think the initial point of degredation in the franchise started with the release of Sonic R and cancellation and replacement of Sonic Xtreme with a 3D blast redo. It almost picked itself up with Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 but, aside from GBA, its been one big downhill disaster after another.

[Berserker]

Who cares about canonical contradictions and inconsistencies? Even if everything meshed up perfectly, it was still a bad idea in the first place to waste any significant amount of time, effort and money into developing it that much.

Sega took a character and game series who's main advantage was the aspect of quick, pick-up-and-play action, and get-up-and-go speed, and then proceeded to bog it down with layer upon layer of story, canon, fifth-wheel furry friends, and a bunch of other stupid shit nobody gives a damn about.

Instead of trying to adapt to newer platforms while still trying to hold above all else what the original Sonic games had going for them, they got caught up in trying to mutate it into some sort of traditional, story-based canonical franchise, and failed horribly. They played exactly against the strength of the original games, and that's where they messed up.

[Sonicwolf]

And now Sonic is a bloated, rotted, milked franchise in its final pain. A pain shared by those people who have been playing the games for a long long time.

Unless the franchise is reset in a spectacular and worthwhile way... Sonic should not be a part of video games anymore.

[scooterb23]

Sonic games had a story?

They completely lost me when they tried to go 3D.

[Haoie]

Really sad to see, isn't it?

But maybe it's just the nostalgia in all of us.

[HYB]

I really think they should have stopped adding new characters and messing up the storyline up after SA2. Everything about the series is messed up and there's little you can do to save it (or well, more like you could just deny some games ever existed in the canon like they did with Castlevania but I don't see that happening).

The first sign of Sonic spiraling into certain doom was Heroes. I mean, after I got SA and SA2 for the cube I was anxious for a new game, but what we got was a pile of shit. I still think that what pisses me off the most is the overly futuristic city levels since there were no overly hi-tech levels on either adventure games, and I don't count the earlier game stages as such either. Plus Charmy's age and the way they ruined both Shadow and Rouge. I'm embarrassed to say I own it, since everything about it seems to suck.

There's not really much you can do since people keep buying the games. Unless someone sensible manages to worm up their way into the place where they make all the decisions considering the franchise, but that's highly doubtful.

[Nebagram]

The entire Sonic canon needs a nuke dropping on it. Get rid of all the characters except Sonic, Tails and Knuckles, drop any pretention about it being on a planet populated by humans (besides of course Robotnik- ROBOTNIK, not Eggman) and put out a SSF2HD style remake of Sonics 1, 2, 3 & S&K complete with maybe a few extra levels and/or expansions somewhere. Provided it's done well and not like the abortion that was Sonic Genesis. Include cut-scenes if needed but never any longer than 30 seconds. Keep the action at the forefront of the game.

Oh, and don't ask Sonic Team to make it.

[RCM]

I've been more than thrilled with Sonic's portions of the 3D titles, and the GBA and DS games are amazing. Sega still knows how to make a fantastic Sonic game, but have a hard time cutting out everything else. And that's what they truly need, to cut out everything but Sonic. Sonic titles don't sell on the strength of the other characters...I hope.

[Gentlegamer]

May I ask what may be a heretical question?

What if Nintendo took over Sonic? Do you think Nintendo would be able to "save" Sonic (do a Sonic game "right")?

[Kevincal]

Sonic Adventure was not fun to me at all. It's almost as if they decided to make the most kick ass intro to a videogame ever, and everything else was an afterthought. Sure the graphics were pretty in the game. But the gameplay was lame, camera broken & overall I just didn't have any fun with it...

[obesolete]

I was never impressed by any sonic game after the genesis.

I didn't understand any sonic adventure/had the patience to play for more than 15 mins.

what ever happened to the simple story of evil doctor turns animals into robots, sonic must save them?

[BetaWolf47]

Not that this is new... the Game Gear titles, Sonic Fighters, etc. Put out a game with a meaningless story and hope no one notices.
Hey man, leave Triple Trouble out of this!

[darkslime]

they ruined sonic by making it have a storyline other than the basic kill eggman.

[Sonicwolf]

they ruined sonic by making it have a storyline other than the basic kill eggman.

Robotnik... Not Eggman. Eggman in name was a creation of the dark ages of Sonic.

[Baloo]

Robotnik... Not Eggman. Eggman in name was a creation of the dark ages of Sonic.

Not really. They just got sick of translating Eggman into Robotnik and took it from the Japanese and forced us to use it over here as well.

[Sonicwolf]

Not really. They just got sick of translating Eggman into Robotnik and took it from the Japanese and forced us to use it over here as well.

It was originally Eggman? hm. Didnt know that... I always found Robotnik to sound a little more sinister than Eggman though.

[thom_m]

Since they changed the official Sonic design from the cute and cool one found on Genesis games...

http://gamehall.uol.com.br/editorial/especiais/historia_megadrive/sonic2.jpg

...to the "I'M SO RAD AND X-TREME!!" on SA and beyond...

http://pressthebuttons.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/sonic.jpg

...things went downhill. You can't imagine how I hate that stupíd grin on his face.

[shopkins]

I agree with many of the others. The fact that there is enough of a storyline that people can have these detailed complaints about continuity and canon is itself the problem.

[Sonicwolf]

Since they changed the official Sonic design from the cute and cool one found on Genesis games...

http://gamehall.uol.com.br/editorial/especiais/historia_megadrive/sonic2.jpg

...to the "I'M SO RAD AND X-TREME!!" on SA and beyond...

http://pressthebuttons.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/sonic.jpg

...things went downhill. You can't imagine how I hate that stupíd grin on his face.

Not to mention that he now looks like a contortionist.

[Overbite]

These games are total shit but they sell to the people who are super crazy about sonic the character and not sonic the game.

These are the people who post on Sonic fansites and draw Sonic porn and watch the sonic cartoons and cosplay as sonic and all his stupid friends.

As long as these people are still crazy Sega will keep making crappy Sonic games.

[Ed Oscuro]

Haha, I love Sonic porn.

Anyway, a month back I saw the opening to Sonic Adventure, dumbest thing I saw in a while.

Frankly the series has never been all that amazing. I remember playing one of the Genesis titles years ago at the house across the street (96 or earlier) and eh well so what he's got an idle animation.

[DonMarco]

I think it was Sonic Adventure I gave up on the series. Robotnik became Eggman (his Japanese name, stupid as it is). Would you take anyone that called themselves "Egg Man" seriously?

I will stick my neck out for Shadow the Hedgehog, though. It gets better with every play through, branching levels (think Guardian Heroes or Outrun), excellent music, great levels... Hands down the best Sonic game in ages. Especially compared to the 2006 Sonic and Unleashed. I haven't played any of the handheld games, but will keep an eye out. I got this big camping trip coming up and a few extra games wouldn't hurt.

Seriously though, Shadow doesn't deserve all the hate it gets.

[Sonicwolf]

Seriously though, Shadow doesn't deserve all the hate it gets.


I dont mind the character show has he resembles the rivalry that knuckles once did in the Genesis years. If they kept it as a racing rivalry instead of a twisted bloated plot fail of a game then things would work out for the better.

[grolt]

Yeah, I could care less about the story. It's always been child's play. The fact that there is always too much of it in these later games is the thing that bothers me. I just want to pick up the controller and rip through levels at top speed, just like the old days. That's why I still love SONIC R - no frills, just start running. They haven't got it right since, although I can't remember another time I was more in awe with a game than all those loops on Windy City in SONIC ADVENTURE. Too bad I had to spend so much time helping Big the Cat find his frog.

[Nature Boy]

Count me amongst those who think that the overarching storyline has little to nothing to do with Sonic's decline in popularity.

Nintendo took Mario into the 3D world of gaming by creating Super Mario 64. Sega tried the same with Sonic Adventure. One worked really well IMO (SM64) - one not so much (SA). That's where Sonic started suffering in my eyes.

[otaku]

they messed up when they went 3D (and they've gone overboard with all the new characters and for that matter with messing with sonic like in the new unleashed)

[obesolete]

Since they changed the official Sonic design from the cute and cool one found on Genesis games...

http://gamehall.uol.com.br/editorial/especiais/historia_megadrive/sonic2.jpg


Getting a little off topic have you seen the new sonic figures... or rather OLD sonic figures?

If i weren't such a broke-ass trick, they'd be in my game room right now.

https://www.animepunch.com/shop/images/PBM010.jpg
http://www.animepunch.com/shop/images/PBM012.jpg

[HYB]

Getting a little off topic have you seen the new sonic figures... or rather OLD sonic figures?

If i weren't such a broke-ass trick, they'd be in my game room right now.

https://www.animepunch.com/shop/images/PBM010.jpg
http://www.animepunch.com/shop/images/PBM012.jpg

I've been wanting those figures ever since they first showed pics of them. Too bad I'm broke as well.

As a side note, I love the plushies you have on etsy. Been wanting to buy the Mr. Saturn one for ages.

[Famidrive-16]

I don't think it's the first US game to use the Eggman name, but it was funny in SA1 when he basically says "My name is Dr. Robotnik" and Sonic says "Ha ha you look like an Egg Man" and that's what he nicknames him for the rest of the game.

Made more sense than Mario 64 dropping the Peach bomb all of a sudden.

[bucky]

Who cares about canonical contradictions and inconsistencies? Even if everything meshed up perfectly, it was still a bad idea in the first place to waste any significant amount of time, effort and money into developing it that much.

Sega took a character and game series who's main advantage was the aspect of quick, pick-up-and-play action, and get-up-and-go speed, and then proceeded to bog it down with layer upon layer of story, canon, fifth-wheel furry friends, and a bunch of other stupid shit nobody gives a damn about.

Instead of trying to adapt to newer platforms while still trying to hold above all else what the original Sonic games had going for them, they got caught up in trying to mutate it into some sort of traditional, story-based canonical franchise, and failed horribly. They played exactly against the strength of the original games, and that's where they messed up.

My sentiments exactly.

[SegaAges]

Sonic 06 was good. I gave you an awesome sense of being Sonic.

Honestly, as games and franchises evolve, you would have to be out of your mind to even think that every single franchise is going to pull a mega man 9.

Sonic has grown along with the gaming industry, as with many other franchises that I can leave nameless (unless somebody else brings it up).

They are different. You can go buy Sonic 2 for 0.25 anywhere, so if that is all you want, go get a genny and sonic 2 for a total of $5.

While you are at it, never play an evolving franchise. That includes... <I said I would be quiet here, but I can always edit my post>

You say Sonic is sucking more.
Tell me, what makes the newer games so bad?
Sonic 06?
Sonic Unleashed?
Explain yourselves.

Sonic 06: I hear bad camera angles all the time. That is about all I hear. Yes, they included more characters, but if you look at the track record, they decided to go with more hedgehogs. Why not? Ok, I will not hold out. Waluigi, Wario within Mario games. There you go. They added more plumbers, so why can;t Sega add more hedgehogs?

One thing I learned in Sonic 06 is that if the camera angle messes up, you went the wrong way! You tried to do something not intended in the game, and the camera is trying to get you back on track.

I only had 1 issue with the camera out of the entire time I played the game, and that is because I made a shortcut with Silver to go around a building instead of going through the building, so the camera literally got stuck inside the building. That is it.

If your camera angles are so bad that you can't even play the game. Seriously, take the game back and exchange it for a new one, because you got a copy of the game that is totally messed up. I only had 1 instance, which I mentioned, out of playing the games, and then going back and replaying the levels, where this happened. One time. Once. That is it.

Sonic Unleashed: Badass game. Seriously, the game is fun. It mixes it up alot. The night levels are a clone of God of War, but isn't God of War just a clone of Die Hard Arcade? Funny how that works out.

The day levels are good, provide multiple paths (if you don't see another path open, then wow, are you sure you are playing the same game as me).

They messed up on some side characters, but if you noticed that after SA, they have been tacking down to specific side characters. Big the cat was no longer a side character either.

What about Sonic Heroes? I didn't play far in the game because it is challenging, but I did enjoy the game. Why is that game left out?

And why the hell can't Sonic have a story?
Fuck man, they give a buttload of characters stories who didn't used to back in the day. In the end, it is still the same story as Sonic 1 and 2. Eggman is trying to take over the world. Stop him. Shit will happen along the way. Somebody may get kidnapped, or whatever, but I do remember another iconical character where he had to defeat an evil boss after somebody was kidnapped as well.

Sonic is not messed up, just different than how he was in Sonic 1 and 2. Fuck man, shall I go into other franchises that the anti-sega people cherish that have changed over the years?

How about a badass game that was a 2-D platformer that turned into, well pretty much, a FPS? I can name it if you can't think of it. That one had a story that was changed.

Seriously, just because it is not a 2-d sidescrolling, fast-paced platformer does not make it a bad game.

I can go further in dept if you like. In fact, reply to what I put to let me know why I am wrong, and then allow me to retort. Until then, there is no reason to just randomly fucking hate. These threads pop up way too much. Yes, I know this is mainly a retro forum, but seriously, it is not as bad as you make it to be.

You claim Sonic is ruined and that Sonic needs to die. I beg to differ, and I can easily retort to inform you why.

[Diosoth]

Fact is, Sega doesn't care if it makes sense.

Knuckles. A semi-important character that could have been abandoned, but they kep adding in all this personal history of the echidnas as some sort of warlike tribe and such that were important. Sonic Chronicles added a 2nd tribe which had technology?

Why?

Knuckles isn't the title character. Why does he get all the history when Sonic gets nothing? Knuckles is a borderline unlikeable character that hasn't done anyting remotely relevant since SA2. His mission in SA ended with an awful rap tune written by someone who didn't play the games, and they got the same guy back to do all of the Knuckles stage music for SA2, and it was all awful. Knuckles has also been written as dumber over time, and so what if he's supposed to guard the Master Emerald? He does nothing but follow Sonic around!

And another annoying franchise habit... the "almost but don't count on it romance". They'll have some female character flirt with guys, even if the guy is so visibly disgusted with the girl's presence that they can't hide it. Typical of Sonic and Amy, though pushed to limits with Rouge and Knuckles, often with Knuckles threatening physical violence over it. And why is Rouge flirting with underage kids anyway? There's a lengthy bit in Sonic Battle where she hits on Tails. In a borderline sexual manner. He's 8 years old.

Sega needs to stop that! If they oppose romance in the series that bad then they need to exclude it completely.

The sheer number of characters woudn't be a problem if only they'd write everyone better.

[Famidrive-16]

ghostface did the pumpkin hill song I SWEAR HE DID

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYCNQVIA-xg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxb9kvJpE4w

edit: oh yeah i know why sonic 06 sucked

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBkhh7n017o

[Wraith Storm]

edit: oh yeah i know why sonic 06 sucked
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBkhh7n017o

You can take anything and exploit a flaw to make it look 100 times worse...

Those are all the in-town missions that are usually very quick to complete. You talk to the guy, accept the mission, play the mission, the guy talks to you again, and then it goes back to the town. Sure, so it loads between each step... Big deal.

So someone decides to run through them all back to back and film it and suddenly Sonic 06 is HORRIBLE because it has ridiculous load times.

Now I'm not saying it has no load time because it certainly does. They do seem a little frequent and a bit lengthy, but i'm okay with it because the "GAME" is still pretty damn good.

Hell, I used to play Sim City 2000 on the Saturn all the time and it took like 5 minutes to load. But that didn't make the "GAME" suck. The "GAME" was a freaking blast to play and if someone hadn't stolen it I would probably still play it to this day.

The Sonic games are still solid. Maybe not a great as they used to be but they are FAAAAAARRRRR from the shit-fest people make them out to be. No thanks to guys like this youtube individual.

[SegaAges]

Fact is, Sega doesn't care if it makes sense.

Knuckles. A semi-important character that could have been abandoned, but they kep adding in all this personal history of the echidnas as some sort of warlike tribe and such that were important. Sonic Chronicles added a 2nd tribe which had technology?

Why?

Knuckles isn't the title character. Why does he get all the history when Sonic gets nothing? Knuckles is a borderline unlikeable character that hasn't done anyting remotely relevant since SA2. His mission in SA ended with an awful rap tune written by someone who didn't play the games, and they got the same guy back to do all of the Knuckles stage music for SA2, and it was all awful. Knuckles has also been written as dumber over time, and so what if he's supposed to guard the Master Emerald? He does nothing but follow Sonic around!

And another annoying franchise habit... the "almost but don't count on it romance". They'll have some female character flirt with guys, even if the guy is so visibly disgusted with the girl's presence that they can't hide it. Typical of Sonic and Amy, though pushed to limits with Rouge and Knuckles, often with Knuckles threatening physical violence over it. And why is Rouge flirting with underage kids anyway? There's a lengthy bit in Sonic Battle where she hits on Tails. In a borderline sexual manner. He's 8 years old.

Sega needs to stop that! If they oppose romance in the series that bad then they need to exclude it completely.

The sheer number of characters woudn't be a problem if only they'd write everyone better.

Sonic, just like many big franchises, has more than just video games. There is plenty of backstory on Sonic.

The almost romance is a gaming cliche at this point, as it happens all the time.
Hey, many of you have said it yourselves with many classics: don't mess with a formula that works. In this case, it is the romance cliche.

[Gentlegamer]

Was was the OP banned?

[PingvinBlueJeans]

Was was the OP banned?
http://www.digitpress.com/forum/showthread.php?t=132108

Openly supporting game piracy, being a dick, etc.

[Swamperon]

My god, I despair over how confusion still exsists over Eggman/Robotnik naming "controversy", of all places, this is one I'd expect to get it right.

It's really simple. Pre - SA1, the fat evil professor was called Eggman in Japan, Robotnik elsewhere. Upon the release of SA1, ST decided to merge the two. Robotnik became his proper birth name and Eggman was his evil moniker (think Madonna, who was obviosly not born Madonna but has adopted it as her stage name.)

Evidence for this abounds in the games and manuals. The very fact that Robotnik's relations Maria and Gerald have Robotnik as their surname proves this. Both names appear in SA2 behind him when he tells the world to "lend me your ears..."

Neither name is "better" than the other, he uses both interchangably. Much like how many of you have usernames on digitpress that other users know you by but in the real world people call you mike/dave/lucy etc.

[MissingNo_1231]

May I ask what may be a heretical question?

What if Nintendo took over Sonic? Do you think Nintendo would be able to "save" Sonic (do a Sonic game "right")?

That's a fascinating idea. What if Rare were to take a crack at it?


Here's my 2 cents on the argument: Sonic for the longest time was one of those characters I liked and respected, but had never played many of his games. I used to watch the show a lot though. Good stuff.

My first game was actually Sonic Adventure 2: Battle on Gamecube, and I loved it.

I finally got my Genesis I bought from Goodwill working just this year, and I've been playing some of the oldschool ones. Great stuff, obviously.

In terms of the story, all I can say is that in terms of the show it was very convoluted, but the games seem to be even more so.

Again, I'd like to see a different company do a re-imagining of the franchise, in keeping with all that was good to begin with.

[AB Positive]

look, here's the problem with Sonic.

For those that defend the modern day games... GOOD FOR YOU! You found a way to work with the controls re-imagining a franchise which was literally built for "Speed on a 2D plane". Good show, you worked out the controls. Awesome.

I didn't. And I'm talking hours of frustration with SA 1 and 2 on Dreamcast. SA1 was still a good game but the controls never felt right. Why?

IT WAS A 3D GAME.

SONIC'S GENESIS GAMES WORK 2D. NOT 3D.

As for plot, storyline, multiple characters, etc... yeah it's kinda icky about the whole furry thing but really. Let's be frank here.

Knuckles Chaotix had no Sonic, multiple characters, and was awesome. Why?


DAMMIT IT WAS TWO DIMENSIONAL!!!!


the graphics don't have to be 2D but the GAMEPLAY does, and that's why Sonic continues to fail with the mainstream crowd. To those that defend the new games remember - you are WAY in the minority, and for good reason.


And, I should note, this is from a gal that is a hardcore Sega fan and still owns a CDX and every 2D sonic to date made by Sega.

So this is not sonic bashing. This is 3D bashing. Some things weren't meant to be 3D and Sonic is one of them. Deal.




word.

[Baloo]

I love the Sonic 2D games, save for Spinball and 3D Blast. 3D Blast is tolerable, so is Spinball. Don't particularly like them though. Never played Chaotix, but I want to.

I really liked Sonic Adventure as well, one of my first games for the Dreamcast. I liked everthing except for the parts with Big the Cat. Everything else was pretty decent. I haven't played anything after that though out of the 3D era.

[ProgrammingAce]

Was was the OP banned?


http://www.digitpress.com/forum/showthread.php?t=132108

Openly supporting game piracy, being a dick, etc.

That's a bummer... the only reason i read this thread is because i saw the OP was banned and thought he had gone off on someone for insulting sonic. I want my money back.

[Loremaster]

I love the Sonic 2D games, save for Spinball and 3D Blast. 3D Blast is tolerable, so is Spinball. Don't particularly like them though. Never played Chaotix, but I want to.

I really liked Sonic Adventure as well, one of my first games for the Dreamcast. I liked everthing except for the parts with Big the Cat. Everything else was pretty decent. I haven't played anything after that though out of the 3D era.

I know what you mean. I hated the Big the Cat section of that game.

SA1 was loads of fun, and I didn't even mind Sonic Heroes all that much. The thing that annoyed me was in SA2's Knuckles/Rogue levels. It would take me around 40 minutes to find the bloody crystals, and that bloody song loops over and over and over and over....

Sonic and the Secret Rings is another one I didn't like. Lots of people liked it, but I have the problem of the game not recognizing my controller movements. Took me ages to get past the jumping level just because I wasn't shoving the controller PERFECTLY STRAIGHT FORWARD. That, and backing up is annoying.

Sonic, I think, could be done in 3D. However, the problem is that they keep trying to make it a platformer a la Mario in level design, when it really needs to be something else. Like I said, Secret Rings felt kinda like a step in the right direction, but it needs some adjusting.

If you really think about it, all Sonic levels consist of is a racetrack with obstacles. Maybe it needs to be thought of as more of a racing-adventure hybrid.

Heh, now I'm imagining Pitfall with Ferraris.

[Zap!]

They messed up the day he was created and replaced Alex Kidd. Who replaces a mascot? Sega I guess.

[Dire 51]

They messed up the day he was created and replaced Alex Kidd.
Amen to that. In fact, on another forum a while back someone asked what everyone's dream Sonic game was. This was my answer:

My dream Sonic game:

Alex's Revenge: The Death of Sonic the Hedgehog

Plot: Alex Kidd finally gets his revenge on Sonic for replacing him. That happens in the first stage. The rest of the game is an incredible 2D update of Alex Kidd in Miracle World, that includes nods to all of the best things from the AK games while leaving all the terrible ones out (namely the entirety of Lost Stars, High Tech World and that BMX game). It's praised by critics and gamers the world over and becomes a massive hit. Sonic is subsequently forgotten about, except by historians, fanboys and people that enjoyed the first couple of Genesis games & Sonic CD (the rest are stricken from the record).

Ultimately, this reinstates Alex Kidd as Sega's mascot, ushers in a new era for Sega and jumpstarts a new golden age of gaming.

...

A man can dream, can't he?

[RPG_Fanatic]

They completely lost me when they tried to go 3D.

Same here, When he went 3D on the Dreamcast.

[badinsults]

Sega went wrong with Sonic when they failed to release an exclusive Sonic game on the Saturn. Too many years passed between the Genesis and the Dreamcast, and Sonic lost relevance as a true system seller (NFL 2k outsold Sonic Adventure at the launch of the Dreamcast).

[Zap!]

Amen to that. In fact, on another forum a while back someone asked what everyone's dream Sonic game was. This was my answer:

My dream Sonic game:

Alex's Revenge: The Death of Sonic the Hedgehog

Plot: Alex Kidd finally gets his revenge on Sonic for replacing him. That happens in the first stage. The rest of the game is an incredible 2D update of Alex Kidd in Miracle World, that includes nods to all of the best things from the AK games while leaving all the terrible ones out (namely the entirety of Lost Stars, High Tech World and that BMX game). It's praised by critics and gamers the world over and becomes a massive hit. Sonic is subsequently forgotten about, except by historians, fanboys and people that enjoyed the first couple of Genesis games & Sonic CD (the rest are stricken from the record).

Ultimately, this reinstates Alex Kidd as Sega's mascot, ushers in a new era for Sega and jumpstarts a new golden age of gaming.

...

A man can dream, can't he?

I hear ya, I have Alex Kidd all over my video game site, and he's my avitar in my forums (in my sig). I'd buy that game in a second. Imagine it being a pack-in for a future Sega console? Ahh, paradise!

There is a homebrew of Alex Kidd planned called Alex Kidd Revival (http://www.zaponline.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=987). Check it out!

[kedawa]

All 3D sonic games are horrible. The classic Sonic games were great because they had responsive controls, good level design, cool music, and they didn't waste my time with obnoxious cutscenes and voice acting.
Not all of the 2D sonics are good, either. The GBA games are mediocre, Sonic Rush is ugly as sin, and Knuckles Chaotix is just convoluted and weird.

[vivaeljason]

All 3D sonic games are horrible. The classic Sonic games were great because they had responsive controls, good level design, cool music, and they didn't waste my time with obnoxious cutscenes and voice acting.
Not all of the 2D sonics are good, either. The GBA games are mediocre, Sonic Rush is ugly as sin, and Knuckles Chaotix is just convoluted and weird.

Oh come on...While Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 lack the charm of the 2D Sonic titles from the Genesis, they're definitely not *horrible.* I enjoy both of those games.

While not having a game on the Saturn was a huge mistake, the big problem to me is when Sega stopped making hardware and Sonic got ported to other systems. I think that, more than anything, was the big problem, but I don't know if that's the fault of the hardware not handling the speed of Sonic or the developers just forgetting what makes Sonic games fun.

[kedawa]

Between the stupid overworld, dreadful cutscenes, and dumbed-down, on-rails action sequences, I have a hard time finding any enjoyment in SA.

[8-bitNesMan]

They messed up the day he was created and replaced Alex Kidd. Who replaces a mascot? Sega I guess.

They did right. Alex Kidd was lame IMHO. Sonic was the perfect mascot to rival Mario in the system war of the early 90s.

[Baloo]

IMO, Sonic went to shit after Sonic Adventure 1. Everything before that I thought was pretty good. Sonic Spinball was probably the worst 2D Sonic game, and that's really not that bad. I love the 2D Sonics, even the Game Gear ones. I even love Sonic R, and have warmed up to Sonic 3D Blast (on the Saturn that is).

But after Sonic Adventure 1, everything went to shit. Sonic 2 Adventure is garbage, I can't stand that game.

I think when Sonic's whole look changed, and they started making you play as people who weren't Sonic and didn't play like Sonic is when the franchise started to go down the drain.

Also:

New Sonic-EXTREME look. Also new Eggman look.
New end-of-the-world plotlines that were really terrible and thick and confusing.
Horrible voice acting.
Parts of Sonic Adventure where there was no speed
Robotnik to Eggman.
New friends added during and after Sonic Adventure. We don't need Big, Silver, Shadow, Rogue, Cream, etc. that weren't needed.

Those are the signs of the beginning, of the end. Sonic Adventure's levels with Tails, Sonic, Amy, are all fun. Even E-102 isn't that bad. But Sonic Adventure 2 with Tails, and Knuckles, and Rouge, and Robotnik in that chicken walker aren't fun. And the Sonic levels are mediocre at best, as they fucked with the spindash and brought in that stupid somersault.

Also, I love Knuckles Chaotix, and that had a bunch of new friends. But the friends still had 'tude, and the gameplay was just awesome, so was the graphics. AND THE PLOTLINE DIDN'T MATTER

[Zap!]

They did right. Alex Kidd was lame IMHO. Sonic was the perfect mascot to rival Mario in the system war of the early 90s.

I hated Sonic back in the early 90's. Having a mascot with "attitude" was apparently the hip thing at the time. Bonk for Turbo Grafx I liked but could never get into Sonic. The Sega commercials in the 80's were serious, and in the 90's, Sega became cool and had to be sarcasticly funny. That's when they lost me.

[Arkhan]

To be honest growing up, I never paid attention to them as "mascots"

I just went "hey cool cartoons!", and went on playing games. Maybe since I was so young I didn't really care about marketing schemes.

I liked the DC sonic adventures. The fast-paced flying around the screen in spin dash stuff was still there, so i was set. Plus the levels looked cool, and the robot portion was pretty funny.

I dont understand the "on rails" complaint. All of the 2D ones are "on rails"

There's basically only one way through each level: To the right.

[StoneAgeGamer]

I hated Sonic back in the early 90's. Having a mascot with "attitude" was apparently the hip thing at the time. Bonk for Turbo Grafx I liked but could never get into Sonic. The Sega commercials in the 80's were serious, and in the 90's, Sega became cool and had to be sarcasticly funny. That's when they lost me.

I don't care how corny Sonic (as a character is or was). The early games were good. I mean if you think about it Mario is just as bad on the cornball scale, but Mario games (in general) have always been good and fun. So people overlook that.

Creating Sonic was probably the best business decision Sega ever made at the time. Alex Kidd wasn't going to cut it, they obviously knew this.

I agree with what most have said though. The secondary characters are out of control and pointless. Sonic and Tails should be the heroes. Knuckles should be the antihero. Robonik should be the bad guy.

Hopefully Project Needlemouse will revive Sonic. I won't hold my breath however.

In the end though what has killed Sonic is that the games since Sega went 3rd party have been terrible (in general). Story and secondary characters haven't helped this, but if the games were good most people would easily overlook these issues.

[Enigmus]

Introducing the "To The Point" Text Rezing Method:

To be honest growing up, I never paid attention to them as "mascots"

I just went "hey cool cartoons!", and went on playing games. Maybe since I was so young I didn't really care about marketing schemes.

I liked the DC sonic adventures. The fast-paced flying around the screen in spin dash stuff was still there, so i was set. Plus the levels looked cool, and the robot portion was pretty funny.

I dont understand the "on rails" complaint. All of the 2D ones are "on rails"

There's basically only one way through each level:

To the right.


I dare you to say that during ANYWHERE but the last zone of Sonic 3.

[Arkhan]

yeah... touche'! :lovin:

that one level I think that had quicksand chasing you. It sucked

[TonyTheTiger]

It is pretty sad when the comic books, based on a short lived cartoon from 1993-1994, are the best Sonic has to offer these days. The DIC/Archie continuity is not only more interesting than what Sega itself did with the character, but Sonic actually running is featured more often, as well.

If there is any series that needs to go back to basics it's Sonic. Maybe taking a hint from Capcom and what they're doing with Mega Man would do the trick.

[kedawa]

It's also sad that the best Sonic game in years is a fanhack of the first game in the series...

[Famidrive-16]

I dare you to say that during ANYWHERE but the last zone of Sonic 3.

green hill zone

[Sosage]

Presentation wise: Taking it's backstory seriously enough to add a crap load of characters, while in the same swoop destroying it by 1) just throwing darts at a wall of ideas or whatever they could interpret from an executive's doodle on a wet bar napkin 2) pandering to the furry set that has latched onto the franchise.

Gameplay wise: Forgot the entire thing was about the choice between platforming carefully and exploring or platforming incredibly fast and looking for ways to collect "enough" coins while finding ways of going even faster. Both styles had a risk and reward system that didn't punish you for doing one over the other. I've yet to play a non-2D Sonic that does this well. SA1 and 2 get a nod though, because fuck, at least those tried.

[Wraith Storm]

The 2d Sonic games were Sonic at his the best. The Dreamcast Sonic Adventure 1 and 2 games were pretty freakin' good for the time. Sure they were a bit rough around the edges but they were admirable efforts. Pretty much everything after the DC installments has been lackluster.

The Sonic 06' game had some major issues but there was alot of good stuff to be found in that game as well.

But the best 3d Sonic game I have ever played is, unfortunately, the 3D section of Sonic Jam on the Saturn. It was just a tease of what could be, but damn was it fun. Not only did it showcase some of the best 3d ever done on the Saturn, but it also replicated the "look and feel" of a classic Sonic game. Something that even the DC efforts failed to do. It has the iconic brown checkered walls, the floating platforms and the bright green grass. The familiar Sonic world of the 2D installments is rendered beautifully by the Saturn. I boot it up off and on throughout the year and play through that level completing all of the tasks and mini missions. It is a perfect template and I still dream of a 3D Sonic game being handled like that area.

[vivaeljason]

I hated Sonic back in the early 90's. Having a mascot with "attitude" was apparently the hip thing at the time. Bonk for Turbo Grafx I liked but could never get into Sonic. The Sega commercials in the 80's were serious, and in the 90's, Sega became cool and had to be sarcasticly funny. That's when they lost me.

I'm wondering how Sega would have ever been able to compete with Nintendo with Alex Kidd as its flagship series. Don't get me wrong, the Alex Kidd games are fun, but if that was what was offered as the BIG title to compete with the Mario games, the Genesis would have flopped miserably -- Sonic fit the attitude that Sega was trying to go for, and the fast-paced platforming of the games is what made them fun.

[TonyTheTiger]

2) pandering to the furry set that has latched onto the franchise.

To be fair, charming furry creatures was always what Sonic was all about.

[JSoup]

To be fair, charming furry creatures was always what Sonic was all about.

The day that a set of characters in the Archie Sonic comics referred to all the animal-like characters as 'furries' was a day that the cry of a thousand outraged Sonic fans could be detected from Mars.

[Zap!]

I don't care how corny Sonic (as a character is or was). The early games were good. I mean if you think about it Mario is just as bad on the cornball scale, but Mario games (in general) have always been good and fun. So people overlook that.

Creating Sonic was probably the best business decision Sega ever made at the time. Alex Kidd wasn't going to cut it, they obviously knew this.

I agree with what most have said though. The secondary characters are out of control and pointless. Sonic and Tails should be the heroes. Knuckles should be the antihero. Robonik should be the bad guy.

Hopefully Project Needlemouse will revive Sonic. I won't hold my breath however.

In the end though what has killed Sonic is that the games since Sega went 3rd party have been terrible (in general). Story and secondary characters haven't helped this, but if the games were good most people would easily overlook these issues.

I had fun with the first Sonic, but I never loved the game. It's too fast paced. Compare it to a game from its time like Super Mario World. I think it's safe to say that most people prefer SMW by a sizable margin. The original Sonic is what it is, a good fun game. Not mascot worthy though.

Alex Kidd could have cut it if they could have just came out with a game that had the spirit of the original. Actually, Alex Kidd in the Enchanted Castle was good and like the original. Maybe Sega should have pushed it more, with Alex Kidd all over every add.

[TonyTheTiger]

The day that a set of characters in the Archie Sonic comics referred to all the animal-like characters as 'furries' was a day that the cry of a thousand outraged Sonic fans could be detected from Mars.

That actually happened? I actually have read the entire series up to this point and can't remember that. If so, that's goofy and hysterical at the same time. It's Goosterical.

[Gameguy]

For now I'll just comment on the official cannon that some people are complaining about. It didn't really have any as each region had a different origin story. North America, Europe, and Japan all had different stories and supporting characters even back when the games first came out(if you paid attention to the comics and TV shows from different regions). According to the comics, Europe had Robotnik who was created after an accident(caused by Sonic) and was originally named "Kintobor". He wasn't evil until after the accident caused by Sonic, and the same accident turned Sonic blue.

Even comparing just North America. There were 2 separate TV shows featuring different characters and plots, airing at the same time. The cannon wasn't even consistent back then. I really enjoyed the shows, but thinking back some things bother me now. All of the characters' parents were the same species as the character, yet for the show(and comic that still continues) the characters openly date different characters from different species. I didn't really think about it when I was a kid but later on I started to wonder about that.

[vivaeljason]

I had fun with the first Sonic, but I never loved the game. It's too fast paced. Compare it to a game from its time like Super Mario World. I think it's safe to say that most people prefer SMW by a sizable margin. The original Sonic is what it is, a good fun game. Not mascot worthy though.

Alex Kidd could have cut it if they could have just came out with a game that had the spirit of the original. Actually, Alex Kidd in the Enchanted Castle was good and like the original. Maybe Sega should have pushed it more, with Alex Kidd all over every add.

I really don't think that this guy...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/30/Alex_Kidd_EnchantedCastle.png

...would have worked as a mascot for Sega when Sega was distinctly trying to separate itself from Nintendo as something different. Besides all of that, the Alex Kidd games really didn't show off the capabilities of the Genesis when it came to the much bally-hooed "blast processing."

[Arkhan]

yeah, mongoloid-like chimp men aren't really much different than mario.

different accent maybe? lol


I think Sonic and the entire world they created out of it is much cooler than Marios mushroom kingdom stuff.

Cmon? Spring Yard Zone? what's better than that!

[vivaeljason]

yeah, mongoloid-like chimp men aren't really much different than mario.

different accent maybe? lol


I think Sonic and the entire world they created out of it is much cooler than Marios mushroom kingdom stuff.

Cmon? Spring Yard Zone? what's better than that!

Okay...getting past the dripping sarcasm, I realize that Alex Kidd isn't a Mario ripoff, but the fact of the matter is that I think that Sega was aiming for a specific group (pre-teen boys who were "too old" for Nintendo's "kiddyness") with their marketing, and that Sonic was a much better fit for that group than Alex Kidd was.

Edit: Obviously, I'm in the minority with this, but the simple fact is that a lot of people in that age group, myself included fell for the hook, and became Genesis and Sonic fans. I really don't think that an Alex Kidd game would have achieved the same result.

[JSoup]

That actually happened? I actually have read the entire series up to this point and can't remember that. If so, that's goofy and hysterical at the same time. It's Goosterical.

I've read up until 191 and 200 as a standalone, so I don't remember which issue it was in, however it was in one of the stories that explained the Overlanders history. The line read 'We call them the furries.' There was a huge explosion of rage in most of the Sonic communities, as Archie had effectively marked 'furrie' as a derogatory form of 'furry' and had solidly connected Sonic with the furry fandom (something that had shortly before this point had been established by a storyboarder for Family Guy who was trying to restart SatM Sonic).