how many chances would you give your 360?

[crom]

this is going to be the 2nd time in 4 months that Im going to have to bring my xbox back in due to freezing (I have a warranty) if it crashes or messes up again Im going to get a PS3 I think...

Ive got the wii, and thank god for punchout cause its going to hold me over untill my xbox is fixed again...

but am I alone here? Ive got a feeling that alot of ps3 sales are due to ppl being frustrated with their 360's

[Lord_Magus]

One, and that's exactly why I haven't bought one yet.

When I pay hundreds of dollars for a product - anything - I expect it to work perfectly from day one, and in the rare case I do get a faulty unit, I expect the company behind it to bend over backwards and replace it immediately, which obviously isn't the case with Microsoft and the 360.

[Cryomancer]

If it's still being repaired for free, as many as it wants. It sucks, but it's BEING REPAIRED FOR FREE. You don't even have to pay shipping. They are being responsible about it to some degree. Did Sony offer free repairs for DREs on PS2? Did Nintendo give free repairs for blinking NESes?

[otaku]

I used mine till it blew and bought another because quite simply it is the best console as powerful and cool looking as the ps3 is its graphics generally are inferior and it has fewer games and inferior online support. The wii is even less interesting than the ps3 though at least it has more play and unique mechanics. But yeah Id keep sending it in for free repairs

[Azraelscross]

i'm giving mine 2-3 more chances before i might give up. my first Red-ring happened a year after i got it*bout 2 months ago*. and it was a board with HDMI at that. hopefully it won't happen again. i had just bought 2 games when it Red ringed after freezing during a movie

[alxbly]

One, and that's exactly why I haven't bought one yet.

When I pay hundreds of dollars for a product - anything - I expect it to work perfectly from day one, and in the rare case I do get a faulty unit, I expect the company behind it to bend over backwards and replace it immediately, which obviously isn't the case with Microsoft and the 360.
Very few companies will replace a product with a brand new one after 28 days... And most companies will charge you for any repairs/replacements after a year. I've had friends with Wii's and PS3's that have crapped out and who have no recourse but to pay for a repair or buy a new console. As unacceptable as the reliability is with the 360, I think it's pretty good of them to offer repairs for red ring faults for a three year period. None of the other console makers have a policy which entitles you to a free repair after a year.

To the topic creator: I guess replacing your 360 with a PS3 depends on what games you already own for the system and how much you want 360 and/or PS3 exclusives. To be honest... I'd recommend owning both consoles as both now have excellent exclusives.

If you're worried about your current 360, why not wait for it to come back from repair and then sell if off. How old is it? Might it be worthwhile to get a new Jasper unit instead?

[hellfire]

Very few companies will replace a product with a brand new one after 28 days... And most companies will charge you for any repairs/replacements after a year. I've had friends with Wii's and PS3's that have crapped out and who have no recourse but to pay for a repair or buy a new console. As unacceptable as the reliability is with the 360, I think it's pretty good of them to offer repairs for red ring faults for a three year period. None of the other console makers have a policy which entitles you to a free repair after a year.

To the topic creator: I guess replacing your 360 with a PS3 depends on what games you already own for the system and how much you want 360 and/or PS3 exclusives. To be honest... I'd recommend owning both consoles as both now have excellent exclusives.

If you're worried about your current 360, why not wait for it to come back from repair and then sell if off. How old is it? Might it be worthwhile to get a new Jasper unit instead?


A local gamestore had the original model psps for 170$ in crap condition with a 3 day warrenty about a year ago

[Poofta!]

ill keep getting them since its really the only viable console this generation. i have a wii and ps3 and theyre pretty worthless as far as gaming goes.

[CDiablo]

Sorry to hear that man, I've been lucky to only have 1 RROD of my 2 360's over the course of 3 years. HOnestly I dont know what to tell you. PS3 is more reliable, but remember it does have overheating issues but not remotely near what XBOX has. On the other hand Sony gives you a year warranty, compared to 3 with XBOX. If you have a YLOD PS3 it'll cost you $150 after the first year, unless you want to do a reflow, which you can also do with the 360.

Honestly MS really has to look what they are doing to themselves by letting this happen. I wouldnt be suprised that the RROD machines get reflowed and put on the shelf to go out to people that need replacements. A reflow will only last so long before the same problem happens again.

TS, I reccomend you get a intercooler device for your 360 if you want it to last.I dont have coolers on my systems, just good luck Unfortunately you cant fit the bill on Microsoft.

[Bojay1997]

this is going to be the 2nd time in 4 months that Im going to have to bring my xbox back in due to freezing (I have a warranty) if it crashes or messes up again Im going to get a PS3 I think...

Ive got the wii, and thank god for punchout cause its going to hold me over untill my xbox is fixed again...

but am I alone here? Ive got a feeling that alot of ps3 sales are due to ppl being frustrated with their 360's


Did it just freeze once or does it freeze repeatedly? If you're talking about an occasional freeze or crash like a PC does, both the 360 and PS3 have that problem because of the way their OS is designed. Unfortunately, as consoles have become more like PCs in design, they have started to have some of the same problems.

[ProgrammingAce]

Out of curiosity, for the people who say they're going to abandon the 360 if theirs fails again. What exactly does that mean? If it breaks again you're going to throw it away? Or just sell it on ebay for a loss? If microsoft is willing to repair it for free in under a week, why wouldn't you just send it in and be done with it?

[monkeychemist]

Out of curiosity, for the people who say they're going to abandon the 360 if theirs fails again. What exactly does that mean? If it breaks again you're going to throw it away? Or just sell it on ebay for a loss? If microsoft is willing to repair it for free in under a week, why wouldn't you just send it in and be done with it?

I think they are just referring to be done with microsoft consoles. Or after the free repair period is over they may switch to Wii or PS3. I wouldn't blame them for that!

[Icarus Moonsight]

I've bought some 360 software already. I'm just waiting for a run of systems that don't habitually shit themselves... Or the next iteration and hope for decent BC. I guess you could say, I'd like to give them a shot, but I want it to be a good one.

[Flashback2012]

TS, I reccomend you get a intercooler device for your 360 if you want it to last.I dont have coolers on my systems, just good luck Unfortunately you cant fit the bill on Microsoft.

Just IMO Intercoolers are junk. The fact that they piggyback off the 360 to be powered rather than have their own separate power supply is reason enough for me to steer clear of them. I don't own a 360 (yet) but I wouldn't invest in an Intercooler even if a gun was pointed at my head. :ass:

I'm looking into getting a 360 sooner or later. I've got tons of software for it (the deals wait for no system! :wink 2:) and am anxious to play them. Anyone know if the new Elites that have Halo/Fable packed in use the Jasper board? They claim those boards have beaten the RROD problem. If I got one and it failed, I imagine I'd get another system but after that I dunno. MS has already burned me twice on the original Xbox hardware. :puppydogeyes:

[monkeychemist]

MS has already burned me twice on the original Xbox hardware. :puppydogeyes:

Wow! As much as I love to rant about Microsoft and their crappy products I am really shocked to hear that. I though the original Xbox was the one good rugged product MS made.

[carlcarlson]

As long as I'm getting it repaired for free I'll stick with the 360 until well into the next gen. IMO it's got the best gaming experience by far.


When I pay hundreds of dollars for a product - anything - I expect it to work perfectly from day one, and in the rare case I do get a faulty unit, I expect the company behind it to bend over backwards and replace it immediately, which obviously isn't the case with Microsoft and the 360.

I'm not sure what exactly you are expecting them to do. Do you want them to show up at your door the day of your failure and hand you a new one? I'd say they are doing a great job of handling the broken units.

[hbkprm]

my 360 have yet to fail on me.
god bless the 3 year warranty!

[crom]

I waited untill the jasper board was out b4 I bought mine... it never red ringed on me (which i think with software updates ms has rerouted issues that were previously red ringed to not red ring to save $ on not have to cover your warranty)

I bought a seperate warranty from futureshop and have had to bring it in 2whice for freezing...

the first time I would be playing a game then it froze in about 5 min of playing... this happened with all my games...

the 2nd time was simular untill I turned it off waiting then turned it back on and it just kept freezing at the xbox splash screen...

basicly when it comes to the games its all about the 360 no doubt...

but Im thinking that after the warranty is done and it messes up again its just gonna sit on my shelf next to my other systems...

the ps3 is in a better position then it was a year ago as far as games go...

Ive been playing alot of cross platform games like fallout 3 and ufc undisputed...

Im just praying that my xbox holds off on failing untill Ive played and beated the new mass effect 2 game...

[The 1 2 P]

Hopefully I never have this problem but I'm sure I'd definitely give it another chance after it got repaired. Theres no way I can give up all that gaming goodness. And I especially wouldn't use a PS3 as my main system. I have a Wii but I rarely ever play that. I'll eventually get a PS3 but the 360 will always be my main system for this gen.

[skaar]

My launch 360 died. We tried the towel thing, brought it back to life. A month later, died again. We redid all the heatsinks, reclamped with aftermarket stuff... two more months, died again. Got more heatpads, Lian-Li aftermarket case - lived again for 6 months. Died again, more thermal pads, more heat - lives again. Probably a few more times on top of that. As of right now it's back in its original case and just got new pads and is alive again.

I've bought two other 360s since (one to replace when it first died and another Arcade for cheap cheap for the other room) - my 360's had about 8 chances so far. The games I want to play are on the console, and the hardware is needed to play it all.

Ditch your 360 - you're only screwing yourself over for some good gaming.

EDIT: That should read "Go ahead and ditch your 360, you're only screwing yourself out of some good gaming :P"

[ProgrammingAce]

My launch 360 died. We tried the towel thing, brought it back to life. A month later, died again. We redid all the heatsinks, reclamped with aftermarket stuff... two more months, died again. Got more heatpads, Lian-Li aftermarket case - lived again for 6 months. Died again, more thermal pads, more heat - lives again. Probably a few more times on top of that. As of right now it's back in its original case and just got new pads and is alive again.

You took a broken console, played frankenstein with it, and complain when it doesn't keep working? Why didn't you just send it in to microsoft when it first broke?

[Retsudo]

One, and that's exactly why I haven't bought one yet.

Same here.

[darkslime]

on my 5th RROD

[skaar]

You took a broken console, played frankenstein with it, and complain when it doesn't keep working? Why didn't you just send it in to microsoft when it first broke?

Was out of warranty, iirc. Otherwise I would have - I'm a firm believer in warranty, I work in IT ;)

And I don't see where the "complaint" was in my post. I got my money's worth out of the thing, and I put it through a lot to keep the thing going.

I was attempting to say that by ditching his 360 he'd only be screwing himself out of some good gaming. Apparently it didn't quite come across that way ;)

[Gemini-Phoenix]

When my Dreamcast started resetting I gave up on it. I gave it one chance and fixed it, and it worked fine for a couple of weeks, but then decided to resort to playing up again, so I washed my hands of it. I wasn't prepared to keep playing stupid games with it (Pun not intended), and didn't like the feeling that if fixed it could resort to resetting at any time it pleased, especially if I was in the middle of playing a marathon RPG

I loved my Dreamcast up until that point, but it's like a cheating girlfriend, and is only destined to do it again and again if you keep giving it chances.


Same applies to the X360 and the RROD. I don't know why Microsoft can't just put their hands up and admit that they have a problem and simply include a returns form inside the console box when you buy it for when it inevitably goes wrong and you have to return it - I personally feel sorry for the naive consumers who have no idea what they're letting themselves in for when they purchase an X360 without knowing about the RROD...

[Iron Draggon]

Same here.

and here...

if you absolutely must play 360 games, why not just buy the PC versions and play them on hardware that works reliably? you can even use your genuine 360 controller to do so... for the life of me I can't comprehend why so many people keep putting up with sending their box in for repairs every few months!

[The 1 2 P]

if you absolutely must play 360 games, why not just buy the PC versions and play them on hardware that works reliably? you can even use your genuine 360 controller to do so... for the life of me I can't comprehend why so many people keep putting up with sending their box in for repairs every few months!

Not all 360 games are playable on the pc(Halo 3, Gears 2 and Halo Wars just to name a few). And that number will continue to increase as time goes on. The fact that the 360 has so many amazing exclusive games(a pc version does not make certain 360 games not exclusive since we are focusing on consoles) and that people have built up their gamer score, achievement list and group of friends so personally, it has to be very difficult for people to just walk away from all of that gaming goodness. I know I couldn't.

[j_factor]

and here...

And here as well.

Current-gen-wise I have a PS3 and Wii, as well as a pretty decent gaming-capable PC. (Not to mention I already own and play games for Xbox, Gamecube, PS2, Dreamcast, Playstation, Saturn, SNES, Genesis & Sega CD, Turbo Duo, SMS, and NES.) There are more than enough games out there to keep me busy. Some people act like they "need" a 360 as if the PS3, Wii, and PC were all barren, and I just don't get it. There's plenty out there for all three of those platforms. And the 360 doesn't even have that many exclusives, really.

Still, I would own a 360 if not for the failure rate, because I like to own every (good) console. It baffles me that Microsoft keeps revising the chips so that they fail a little less, but can't be bothered to redesign the system to fix the underlying problems.

[ProgrammingAce]

and here...

if you absolutely must play 360 games, why not just buy the PC versions and play them on hardware that works reliably? you can even use your genuine 360 controller to do so... for the life of me I can't comprehend why so many people keep putting up with sending their box in for repairs every few months!

Again, i ask... Once you've bought the console, what's the alternative to sending it in if it breaks? Once you one it, you might as well enjoy it. If it breaks you can either send it for repair or throw it in the garbage. The second option doesn't make much sense.

[s1lence]

Glad we could have another 360 thread get bumped up.

To the OP of the thread, don't give it any chances. If you are already doubting the system move on.

[RyanMurf]

Just IMO Intercoolers are junk. The fact that they piggyback off the 360 to be powered rather than have their own separate power supply is reason enough for me to steer clear of them. I don't own a 360 (yet) but I wouldn't invest in an Intercooler even if a gun was pointed at my head. :ass:

I'm looking into getting a 360 sooner or later. I've got tons of software for it (the deals wait for no system! :wink 2:) and am anxious to play them. Anyone know if the new Elites that have Halo/Fable packed in use the Jasper board? They claim those boards have beaten the RROD problem. If I got one and it failed, I imagine I'd get another system but after that I dunno. MS has already burned me twice on the original Xbox hardware. :puppydogeyes:

Intercoolers are actually not junk!! The amount of power it takes to power the intercooler is so miniscule it has no negative influence on the console.

[Nature Boy]

I've got too much invested in it to give up on it, period.

Even if my 2nd one craps out and I'm out of warranty, it's more expensive to pick up PS3 regardless of it's price. All I need is the lowest model 360 and I'm back in business with my existing HD, games, and peripherals.

Microsoft will feel the wrath of my purchasing dollar when it comes to making my next-gen console purchase, not that they'd have been guaranteed my money anyway if the 360 had zero HW issues.

[ProgrammingAce]

Intercoolers are actually not junk!! The amount of power it takes to power the intercooler is so miniscule it has no negative influence on the console.

What about the vacuum effect it generates inside the console?

The intercooler pulls more air out of the console then those tiny air holes allow into the system. Net result is that you're creating a vacuum inside the console. In a vacuum, there are less air molecules. That leaves less air to move across the heat sync. In the end, you're actually making the CPU hotter then if you didn't have an intercooler to begin with.

[RyanMurf]

What about the vacuum effect it generates inside the console?

The intercooler pulls more air out of the console then those tiny air holes allow into the system. Net result is that you're creating a vacuum inside the console. In a vacuum, there are less air molecules. That leaves less air to move across the heat sync. In the end, you're actually making the CPU hotter then if you didn't have an intercooler to begin with.

That whole vacuum theory is total BS in my opinion. I have tested temps with and without the intercooler. Ofcourse the intercooler allows it to run cooler. So to all the people wondering if it is safe to use them the answer is YES!

[Therealqtip]

I think it's bullshit that Microsoft can't get their head outta their asses and stop jacking off and go fix the biggest problem of all times for video games. The Xbox360 doesn't have a garuntee for always reliable like most products claim to be, it has a garuntee to always RRoD. So yeah I'll give my xbox 1 chance and 1 chance only and it turns into a PS3.

[ProgrammingAce]

That whole vacuum theory is total BS in my opinion. I have tested temps with and without the intercooler. Ofcourse the intercooler allows it to run cooler. So to all the people wondering if it is safe to use them the answer is YES!

I'm sorry you don't subscribe to the laws of physics. Pull more air out of the system then the air vents allow to be brought in, and you create a vacuum.

The console engineers tested the CPU temperatures on debug systems using the temperature monitor built into the JTAG interface. Using an intercooler raises the CPU temperatures.

How did you perform your test?

If adding 2 more fans to the ass end of the system would have done *any* good, microsoft would have done it in any one of their 6 system revisions. It would have been a lot cheaper then dealing with all of the returns.

[s1lence]

I think it's bullshit that Microsoft can't get their head outta their asses and stop jacking off and go fix the biggest problem of all times for video games. The Xbox360 doesn't have a garuntee for always reliable like most products claim to be, it has a garuntee to always RRoD. So yeah I'll give my xbox 1 chance and 1 chance only and it turns into a PS3.

Cya, they won't miss you.

[RyanMurf]

I'm sorry you don't subscribe to the laws of physics. Pull more air out of the system then the air vents allow to be brought in, and you create a vacuum.

The console engineers tested the CPU temperatures on debug systems using the temperature monitor built into the JTAG interface. Using an intercooler raises the CPU temperatures.

How did you perform your test?

If adding 2 more fans to the ass end of the system would have done *any* good, microsoft would have done it in any one of their 6 system revisions. It would have been a lot cheaper then dealing with all of the returns.

Ace i gotta hand it to ya but you get snagged once again. If MS was to add two more fans to the "ass end" of the system they would have to completely redesign the whole structure of the console. with the position that they are in now I really dont think they have the time or resources to change that but it would have been a great idea!......Oh and I used an infrared thermometers.

[ProgrammingAce]

Ace i gotta hand it to ya but you get snagged once again. If MS was to add two more fans to the "ass end" of the system they would have to completely redesign the whole structure of the console. with the position that they are in now I really dont think they have the time or resources to change that but it would have been a great idea!......Oh and I used an infrared thermometers.

How exactly do you shoot an infrared thermometer though the case of the 360 and through the heatsink to get the thermal reading of th CPU? Are you shooting it thought the little fan holes in the back of the system and hoping you hit something important?

As for a redesign of the casing, they've already done it 3 times, 7 times if you count modifications to the casing for the debug units. If it would save them the billion dollars they spent on warranty work, you can be sure they'd find a way to add 2 case fans to the ass end. If nothing else, they'd give away a free intercooler with ever purchase.

[RyanMurf]

How exactly do you shoot an infrared thermometer though the case of the 360 and through the heatsink to get the thermal reading of th CPU? Are you shooting it thought the little fan holes in the back of the system and hoping you hit something important?

As for a redesign of the casing, they've already done it 3 times, 7 times if you count modifications to the casing for the debug units. If it would save them the billion dollars they spent on warranty work, you can be sure they'd find a way to add 2 case fans to the ass end. If nothing else, they'd give away a free intercooler with ever purchase.

No Silly! i shoot the laser from the bottom to the heatsink. And as far as redesigning it would be a major case redesign to fit the fans not just some changes on the board!!

[Overbite]

I've had my 360 for over a year and it's still going strong. If it ever dies I'll just send it in for a replacement. The 360 is by far the best console this generation and I'm not gonna give it up.

[RyanMurf]

Ace I just wanted to let you know that I have been thinking about our recent discussions on multiple situations. My final argument/slash advise for you is that my statements are made from first hand experience in a retail store specifically dealing with all of these problems. I have found to get an answer you can trust you must do all the dirty work for yourself to get the truth. The only difference between me and you is that you get all of your answers from a piece of paper or computer screen which comes straight from Microsoft or a company Microsoft has hired to do research on their console. I'm sorry but I really don't trust anything that comes from a company that has lost millions of dollars. I just wanted to be blunt with you and tell you that Your constant authoritative positions on these topics are based not on your own work or projects but of only pieces of paper or web pages that have results you speak of. So all im saying ace is that sometimes it doesn't hurt to do your own work before speaking on other researchers behalf.

[duffmanth]

If I had one, which I might soon depending on possible price drops this fall, I could live with sending it in once, but that's it. If I did, I would record the serial number to make sure I'm getting back my original console and not some fucking refurb. It's nice that MS pays for all of the shipping and other costs (which they should considering it's their fuck up) but when I spend several hundreds of dollars on a system, I expect it work perfectly and for the company to bend over backwards for me.

It's nice that MS picks up the tab, but it's just such a huge inconvenience having to send it back several times.

[Fuyukaze]

How many chances? None. Atleast, not untill this whole RRoD thing is fixed. I've got 4 games I want to play on it but the risk is too great. I dont make enough to just piss it away on a system I've got to send back over and over. Maybe the system I bought wouldnt have any problems, maybe it would. Even if it managed to survive the warranty, if it did, I'd have to buy the system all over again. There are some great games for it but not enough for me to buy.

[zemmix]

None for me. Well I can't really give a system I don't own any chances. At this point I'm just going to wait it out for price drops and a slim redesign (that won't have any problems hah). I'm in no rush to get one considering there's not a whole lot I wan't to play on it outside of Forza and that Duke 3D on the XBLA...

[Nirvana]

I'd say 3. I've already had to return it once, but it's been running great ever since (knock on wood)

Sometimes I ask myself why I DON'T have a PS3, considering I love fighting games and that seems to be the system that all the tournaments for them are held on.

[crom]

guys... this thing isnt new...

back in ps2's hayday I went through 2 of them b4 the one I got now... and that shit happened to all of my friends who had them too...

but why wouldnt we just get a xbox or a gamecube? because the games were better on the ps2...

just like now, its shit that I had to bring my 360 back 2 times now, but the games are better on 360 then wii and ps3...

no mass effect, no gears of war, no fable 2, no crackdown, no scene it...

its not about being a fanboy... matter of fact last gen I was all about sony and thought that microsoft could go to hell... but the games man, the games...!

[SegaAges]

I don't know what you guys' deal is.

I have had my 360 RRoD on me once. I sent it in for repairs and it has worked very good since. If it breaks again, I will send it in again.

As for computers being more reliable, that is not true depending on your computer knowledge. When I first got my new system, I was OC'ing too much, and kept getting BSOD's, and it would only happen when I was playing games.

Now for any average joe, they would not have known it was the OC'ing since my system only messed up when I was playing games, and to top it off, it was only certain games (like Crysis). Speaking of PC's, I need to find and bump a thread since I don't think I have told you guys my new specs yet.

[ProgrammingAce]

Your constant authoritative positions on these topics are based not on your own work or projects but of only pieces of paper or web pages that have results you speak of. So all im saying ace is that sometimes it doesn't hurt to do your own work before speaking on other researchers behalf.

You know... i freely admit i'm an arrogant bastard, but... wow.

You haven't the slightest idea where i get my information from, you presume an awful lot. You posted this same comment in 2 different threads, then sent me a copy in a PM just so you're sure i saw it...

http://programmingace.com/images/Random/Launch360Highlight.JPG

But if we're going to start critiquing each other's methods, we can play that game. I've seen plenty of threads where you've given piss poor repair advice to people. Pretty much every word you've ever spoken about the 360 is factually incorrect. So let me know if you want to keep going down the personal attack path and we can keep going.

[Leo_A]

Was out of warranty, iirc. Otherwise I would have - I'm a firm believer in warranty, I work in IT ;)

And I don't see where the "complaint" was in my post. I got my money's worth out of the thing, and I put it through a lot to keep the thing going.

I was attempting to say that by ditching his 360 he'd only be screwing himself out of some good gaming. Apparently it didn't quite come across that way ;)

It didn't start with a RROD error that's covered by their 3 year warranty? If your timeline is correct, there's no way that all started last November when the first 360's left that extended warranty for common defects.

It sure sounds like your describing the three red rings error which was covered for all launch consoles until 8 months ago.

What went wrong with it initially? I've never heard the repairs your mentioning doing anything but fixing the three RROD error. Obviousily it isn't going to repair things not covered by the extended warranty like disc drive issues.

[Overbite]

lets whine and bitch some more

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

You know, I was saving this post for something else, something special, but this conversation (especially the back/forth between ProgrammingAce and Murf) is so fascinating to me that I'm going to spend my 3000th throwing my two cents in here.

From a viewer's perspective of the debate (in both 360 threads), the two stances that appear to be happening here come from two drastically different places ...

ProgrammingAce is providing empirical information from his 1st hand "industry insider" perspective (see his launch team faceplate graphic which subtly draws an underline under the word "insider") about the technical ins and outs of the 360 from the hardware revisions of the system to the chemical composition of the solder on the motherboard ... these are the cold hard facts that if we somehow got some type of security clearance at Microsoft and dug through their files they'd probably all check out to the letter.

Murf on the other hand, I think is trying to get the point across that sometimes the facts on paper don't equal the cold harsh reality of things.

While Microsoft may be offering up the greatest extended warranty and repair service in the history of the electronics business it doesn't change the fact that the technical failings of the 360 have not gone away regardless of any revisions that they've made. Regardless of any lack of foresight as to how the console would perform in the long-run or whatever corrective changes they've made to the processor, motherboard, case design, power supply, etc. 360s still break. Old ones RROD, new ones RROD, dirty ones, clean ones, Elites, Arcades, Jasper boards, etc. are all prone to RROD (at the very least) and a short-list of other typical failures in the event that they DON'T RROD. At this point it's not even an industry "joke" anymore, it's a melancholy expectation of nearly every 360 owner that their system will die in some fashion before it's expected lifespan.

That reality is where (I think) Murf's conviction comes from.

Murf has had his hands on literally hundreds and hundreds of 360s in need of repair or replacement on a yearly basis at the Digital Press store. I'm there on a weekly basis. Sometimes as a worker, sometimes as a customer. I see them come and go en masse' 2, 4, sometimes 6 units at a time, and in some cases units being brought back multiple times, even AFTER Microsoft has had their hands on them and given them a clean bill of health.

I personally think that Murf has every right to be jaded against any "facts" or statistics thrown his way - even if they are completely legit (and I'm not saying that they're NOT, because I don't work for Microsoft and I don't have access to anything other than what's out there on the web) because facts that say Microsoft have done anything to make the 360 a better more "reliable" system (even if those facts are fully empirical/quantifiable) don't equate to the console carnage that he's seen and continues to see on a regular basis - Murf is the M*A*S*H* surgeon of the DP store, he's got scars on his hands (literally even) to show for popping open 360s and trying desperately to pump some life back into them.

No matter how many 360's any of us have gone through personally (I'm on my 6th myself) I don't think ANY of us have seen AS MANY broken, failed or RROD'ed 360's as are carried in to the DP store by disappointed at best and totally emotionally defeated (likely due to multiple repairs) at worst consumers as Murf has seen.

Anyway .... that's what I see in this exchange.

I'm not sure if either of you are capable of "walking a mile" in the other's shoes ... and you may just have to agree to disagree at the end of the day, but I think that it'll serve the discussion more if you DON'T make it any more personal than it already is, just resign yourselves to the fact that both of you have opinions on the 360 that come from years of divergently DIFFERENT experiences with the console, neither of which can be completely denied if viewed objectively.

[The 1 2 P]

Nicely said Frankie.

[PapaStu]

It didn't start with a RROD error that's covered by their 3 year warranty? If your timeline is correct, there's no way that all started last November when the first 360's left that extended warranty for common defects.

It sure sounds like your describing the three red rings error which was covered for all launch consoles until 8 months ago.

What went wrong with it initially? I've never heard the repairs your mentioning doing anything but fixing the three RROD error. Obviousily it isn't going to repair things not covered by the extended warranty like disc drive issues.

The E74 and RRoD warranties are for 3 years from date of console purchase. The only warranties that have now gone dead are the warranties that have hit the 3 years, of which launch units are included since those warranties ended last November. Any other system purchased later is still covered for its 3 years (in regards to those specific failures). All other failures are either under the 1 year MS warranty or an extended warranty (normally of 2 years) that either was purchased from MS (like mine personally was) or from your store of purchase if they offered a warranty and most any store i've been into that sells 360's do.

In my 2.5 years of 360 ownership, i've had 2 failures of disc drives. Nary a red light in the 1, 2, 3 or 4 variety. I'll keep getting refurbs as long as my extended holds out (till this Xmas) and afterwords i'll probably upgrade to get a more stable unit since i've still got some sort of Xenon refurb.

[Leo_A]

I know. :)

I was saying exactly what you did, as I puzzled why he said his was out of warranty (Which it couldn't of been until last November at the earliest which you restated also), despite his fixes sounding like they were repairs for the 3 flashing red rings error that was still covered for every 360 ever sold until the past few months (With his timeline of events stretching to well before any 360's ever left that extended warranty for common defects).

:)

In a related note that concerns me, I sent in a 360 for repairs for the 3 red rings error, and recieved one back that I barely had time to use for many months due to getting my master's degree.

Once I started using it regularly months after getting it back, it almost immediately started acting up with the disc drive (Never had a hint of trouble with my disc drive in my original unit, which I didn't get back). So now I'm stuck installing games or face regular problems if I play directly from the disc (Thankfully I at least have the 120 gig hd so its not as much of a hassle as it could be, plus I'm more often than not playing XBLA games).

Hoping for the RROD so I can send it in free and hopefully get a different unit back that still has a fully operable disc drive. Money's short due to just graduating, plus I don't see why I should have to spend $150 to get a disc drive repaired that was likely sent to me defective last summer from someone else that beat it to death burning up the 360 I'm now stuck with as his DVD player...

Worst case, I'm hoping it lives for a while longer before the disc drive dies completely, and then I'll turn it into a dedicated XBLA machine on a 4:3 CRT for all the classic games on it I've bought by taking it offline, and replace it with a new machine like you plan to do and tranfer all my licenses for DLC to it (And get a in-store replacement warranty this time).

[kupomogli]

If there are those of you that are going to get another system when the warranty dies, why not after you get another system back from Microsoft sell the system to someone you know so you atleast get something off from it.

You can call 1-800-4MY-XBOX to transfer customer info into their name. This is what I did actually.

[c0ldb33r]

Murf on the other hand, I think is trying to get the point across that sometimes the facts on paper don't equal the cold harsh reality of things...

I personally think that Murf has every right to be jaded against any "facts" or statistics thrown his way
I agree wholeheartedly. Numbers and statistics are important, but they don't mean a damn when your own console dies prematurely.

I can go out today and buy a 30 year old atari 2600 and I'm fairly confident that it will work. I bought my current 20GB xbox 360 second-hand about a year ago and was very suspicious that it may not work.

There's just something not quite right in that scenario. I know, I know... more complicated machinery, optical media, etc..., but it just doesn't feel right. :(

[ProgrammingAce]

Murf has had his hands on literally hundreds and hundreds of 360s in need of repair or replacement on a yearly basis at the Digital Press store. I'm there on a weekly basis. Sometimes as a worker, sometimes as a customer. I see them come and go en masse' 2, 4, sometimes 6 units at a time, and in some cases units being brought back multiple times, even AFTER Microsoft has had their hands on them and given them a clean bill of health.

You've struck on my biggest issue with the whole thing. Murf is charging for a service he can't possibly provide. Let me put this as clear as possible:

You can't fix a 360.

If microsoft is spending 1.5 billion dollars in repairs and they can't fix them, what on earth makes you think some dude working at a store in New Jersey can magically fix them?

Simply put, he can't. The issue is beyond his means to fix. But he's still offering the service, he's still breaking the warranty seals to fuck around inside, and he's not *fixing* the problem. I think it's really lame for someone to charge for a service they can't possibly provide, it's all just snake oil.

If any of the solutions modders came up with actually worked, microsoft would have incorporated them into the design years ago. If Murf has some method that actually fixes a 360, i can put him in touch with microsoft's engineering group and make him a millionaire. Somehow i don't see that happening though...

[RyanMurf]

Ummm I never said I could fix the red ring of death??? Ace you need to pay attention to posts man....come onn! When frankie says I have fixed 360s he means multiple problems not 3 red lights. I'm done trying to explain myself especially to such a stubborn person like programming ace. I've done the work to fiind answers maybe you should try that to ace.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

You've struck on my biggest issue with the whole thing. Murf is charging for a service he can't possibly provide. Let me put this as clear as possible:

You can't fix a 360.

If microsoft is spending 1.5 billion dollars in repairs and they can't fix them, what on earth makes you think some dude working at a store in New Jersey can magically fix them?

Simply put, he can't. The issue is beyond his means to fix. But he's still offering the service, he's still breaking the warranty seals to fuck around inside, and he's not *fixing* the problem. I think it's really lame for someone to charge for a service they can't possibly provide, it's all just snake oil.

If any of the solutions modders came up with actually worked, microsoft would have incorporated them into the design years ago. If Murf has some method that actually fixes a 360, i can put him in touch with microsoft's engineering group and make him a millionaire. Somehow i don't see that happening though...

Yeah, sorry if I was unclear.

Murf doesn't do RROD repairs, but he knows his way around the guts of a 360 and can do plenty to get them running again, from non-functional to fully operational.

But even if RROD service is offered in some capacity, it's not unheard of for "service centers" completely and totally independent of the manufacturer of a product to offer up "repair services".


Some independent computer stores fix all manner of computer problems

Independent auto repair shops can diagnose and repair all sorts of problems with both foreign and domestic cars

Audio/Video stores can fix cameras, video recorders, film cameras, VCR, DVD players, etc.

Guitar/Music stores fix guitars, instruments, DJ equipment, etc.

Appliance repair shops can fix washing machines, refrigerators or other expensive kitchen equipment


etc. etc. and so on and so forth ...

Yeah, sure, there's no substitute for sending a box to MS for 100% official repairs (or a replacement system, which we all know is more often than not the case) ... BUT just to play devils advocate - if a product IS out of warranty, some people may actually prefer having an independent technician work on it than having to spend the time and money to ship their product to the manufacturer, pay their repair rates and wait for turnaround. There's the human contact, the in-person visual of what the problem looks like or how exactly to "trigger" it ... and all sorts of other things that you can't do over a phone or hundreds of miles away at an "official" company repair center.

And with Microsofts stringent DRM policies keeping the same console in working condition saves some potential small-to-large headaches in regards to potential "license transfer" complications.

If Murf and/or the DP Store offer some type of basic repair services that have been proven to have ANY level of success (which I'm fairly certain that they have, feel free to ask Ryan or Joe) I'm not sure I see what's wrong with that.

And if you have some type of idea that they're finagling or taking advantage of people, from everything that I've seen - I certainly don't think they are.

In fact, I don't think I've ever met a more honest institution in the "used game" business than The Digital Press store.

There's no snake oil being sold and no unrealistic promises made, people are given realistic explanations of what the diagnosis of the problem(s) is/are and plenty of systems are turned away as being "not fixable" with no additional charges made.

[ProgrammingAce]

Ummm I never said I could fix the red ring of death??? Ace you need to pay attention to posts man....come onn! When frankie says I have fixed 360s he means multiple problems not 3 red lights. I'm done trying to explain myself especially to such a stubborn person like programming ace. I've done the work to fiind answers maybe you should try that to ace.


Let's take a look at : http://www.digitpress.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1214774&postcount=9


The good news is that there is a permanent fix that will fix it for EVER!! In order to do this you have to bolt the heatsinks to the board and the metal casing. When you bolt these heatsinks down with GREAT pressure it pushes the chips back onto the board. This approach will keep the chips there for good this time!

Two years later, how'd that plan work out for you?

You're in a position of authority on things like this, and this is what you choose to spout off? Let's mangle a 360 back into working order, that sounds like a great plan.

Look, you tried it and either it works or it doesn't. Great. But all the psudo-science you spout off doesn't do anybody any good.

[Emuaust]

Greetings, revered customer!

As you probably know, we perform repairs on just about every gaming system, but one snafu in particular has had us turning away XBox 360 repairs, and that's the famous (and all too common) "Red ring of death". These systems, particularly the ones manufactured from 2005 to mid 2008, are prone to overheating and damaging one or more processors. Even Microsoft acknowledged this issue and offered a 3 year warranty to customers with this issue.

However, this warranty has expired on many early units and we're seeing more and more people walk in with their beloved, ailing 360 under their arm. We are happy to announce that we can now remedy this situation. The process should take a week or less and involves disassembling the area around the processors, rebuilding it with a better airflow arrangement, and replacing the system's fans.

For the next 30 days we are offering this service for $90. The price will not go up much (if at all) afterwards and it will always be less than Microsoft charges, making this a cheaper and faster solution. In addition, we offer a 60-day warranty on our parts and labor.

It may not feel like it, but summer is coming. Don't let your gaming be disrupted! Let us get your system up and running quickly.

As always, GAME ON.

-------------------------------------
Digital Press Videogames
387 Piaget Ave (RT 46E)
Clifton, NJ 07011
973-772-1111

To unsubscribe from this list, visit: http://www.digitpress.com/male/index.php?action=unsubscribe


I got this email from the mailing list stating that someone could fix the RROD dated 03/10/2009

[duffmanth]

The other reason why I will probably never get a 360 is because MS probably knew to some extent that the 360 was faulty and launched it anyway at $500. Almost every system in gaming history has had problems at launch, but they're usually fixed within the first year. For the 360 to still be having problems almost 4 years after launch is another reason not get another one.

[RyanMurf]

Let's take a look at : http://www.digitpress.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1214774&postcount=9



Two years later, how'd that plan work out for you?

You're in a position of authority on things like this, and this is what you choose to spout off? Let's mangle a 360 back into working order, that sounds like a great plan.

Look, you tried it and either it works or it doesn't. Great. But all the psudo-science you spout off doesn't do anybody any good.

I was speaking of possible fixes that are out there. I never said I did them myslef. And at the time it semed like aa good fix. My store offers this fix but it is not done by me. and so far it has proven itself to be effective with very satisfied customers.

[ProgrammingAce]

I was speaking of possible fixes that are out there. I never said I did them myslef. And at the time it semed like aa good fix. My store offers this fix but it is not done by me. and so far it has proven itself to be effective with very satisfied customers.

I'm sure your store's customers are quite happy paying $90+ for "disassembling the area around the processors, rebuilding it with a better airflow arrangement, and replacing the system's fans."

I'm sure that'll fix those systems right up. With a new airflow arrangement i'm sure they'll never see another issue ever again.

Who would ever want to spend an extra $30 to send the system to Microsoft to have the faulty components replaced with a board that won't fail anyway? I'm sure your snake oil will cure their baldness.

[mezrabad]

Ya'know, it's about the games.

I've only got maybe five or six games on it, but I enjoy them. Xbox 360 gets more 'on' time than any other console in my house. If I'm not playing something on it, then I'm watching something on it (either via DVD or Netflix streaming). If it dies again (it has died once), I will keep getting it repaired. If it falls out of warranty then I will happily and on the same day buy a new one. Hell, I may buy a new one regardless, just to have it ready in case the first one does break again.

Having a 360 is as essential to me as having a PS2 or a 2600. I expect to be playing games on it for many, many years to come.

Oh, and I'm no MS fanboy, I think Xbox is the only thing they've done right.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

Just so everybody's clear here - It's not "Murf's store", it's The Digital Press Store, Murf just works there.

The RROD service described in the email that Emuast posted is one that Murf by his own admission has nothing to do with...

...but before I get too into the details - maybe Joe would prefer to explain the services that he offers to the local gaming community.


I'm sure your store's customers are quite happy paying $90+ for "disassembling the area around the processors, rebuilding it with a better airflow arrangement, and replacing the system's fans."

I'm sure that'll fix those systems right up. With a new airflow arrangement i'm sure they'll never see another issue ever again.

Who would ever want to spend an extra $30 to send the system to Microsoft to have the faulty components replaced with a board that won't fail anyway? I'm sure your snake oil will cure their baldness.

[skaar]

ProgAce can you fix my 360 for me?

[Rob2600]

Having a 360 is as essential to me as having a PS2 or a 2600. I expect to be playing games on it for many, many years to come.

In case you haven't figured it out by now, Microsoft's engineering department is making sure that will never happen.

[mezrabad]

In case you haven't figured it out by now, Microsoft's engineering department is making sure that will never happen.

No, I hadn't figured it out, but all it takes is someone with your creditability to clear it up! Thanks!

[Zing]

People praise Microsoft for giving "free repairs" for a relatively long time period when most companies never do this. Microsoft isn't doing this because they feel responsible. They are doing it because they realize that any lesser response would result in a class action lawsuit requiring them to perform what they have already offered and likely more.

[Nature Boy]

People praise Microsoft for giving "free repairs" for a relatively long time period when most companies never do this. Microsoft isn't doing this because they feel responsible. They are doing it because they realize that any lesser response would result in a class action lawsuit requiring them to perform what they have already offered and likely more.

I don't disagree with this at all, but I fail to see why it matters. They *had* to step up and offer repairs and they have.

We 'know' that MS pushed the 360 to market early, despite the HW problems, in order to capture market share. They've paid the price for that decision a billion times over.

My only question is this: think they'll do it again with the next gen? ;)

[skaar]

I know. :)

I was saying exactly what you did, as I puzzled why he said his was out of warranty (Which it couldn't of been until last November at the earliest which you restated also), despite his fixes sounding like they were repairs for the 3 flashing red rings error that was still covered for every 360 ever sold until the past few months (With his timeline of events stretching to well before any 360's ever left that extended warranty for common defects).


I didn't have a receipt for my 360 as it was a pre-launch promo freebie ;-)

Warranty seal was also broken (not by my hands) before it was an option.

[Leo_A]

You don't need a receipt, its entered into their system when one is scanned and sold (I imagine they'd do it for giveaways too since its critical to their warranty system), plus they'd know no 360 had yet reached the 3 years mark.

But its moot if your warranty seal was broken. You guys weren't given brand new consoles?

[skaar]

Mine was opened for pictures back in the day ;-)

It was brand new when I got it. Also of note - it still lives on in its zombie form.