E-74, RROD, My 6th 360 System, grrrrrr

[camarotuner]

I hate these things. I really really do. Another one crapped out on me this morning. Thank god for gamestops in-store replacement option otherwise I'd be waiting for weeks instead of tomorrow. Here's my question....

In the great history of gaming, no system has been this ridiculously unreliable and still survived. So, why the hell did the 360 not fail miserably due to it's piss poor design?

This is not a 360 bashing thread, hell I keep getting them, but I really am curious to everyone elses input.

[dendawg]

Was it a Jasper 360?

[camarotuner]

Yep, my second one I might add. "Improved" design my butt.

[scooterb23]

In the great history of gaming, no system has been this ridiculously unreliable and still survived. So, why the hell did the 360 not fail miserably due to it's piss poor design?


Because the games are good, XBLA is awesome, and Microsoft stepped up to the plate, and gave people a way to replace what was defective pretty easily.

The original XBox had issues, the PS2 had a lot of problems (I gather...still on my launch day model) and the toaster NES had its problems too...if the games are there, a system can pretty much survive anything hardware related I think.

[Dr. Dib]

Production problems. The 360 wasn't supposed to be as powerful as what it is until the higher ups complained. It didn't have enough of a heat sink which causes the problem. Well at least that's what I read on a Kotaku story or something.

I do think though that the 360 is the only console to have a problem hat completely destroys the system with no warning. True, PS2s eventually stopped reading discs, but that was years later. 360s break randomly.

Of course it does have some great games though...

[Steve W]

But you would think that Microsoft would get off its ass and re-engineer the damn thing so that this wouldn't happen any more, years after the console has hit the market. They've known about the problem for some time, but are doing very little to fix it. Their new models, the 'Jaspers', seem to break down a little less than the originals.

My original 360 has given me the RRoD late last year, but I haven't sent it back yet. What's the point if that one will break, and the next, and the next? I'm a collector, and I have to look at it from a longevity point of view. Will I still have a working 360 in twenty years time? Hell no, I can't guarantee I'll have a working one in twenty weeks time. Why should I keep buying games for it and giving them money for a badly engineered product? In past generations, the console manufacturers have re-engineered their consoles either to make them less costly to manufacture or to make them more reliable. Case in point, the PS2 Slim, Genesis model 2 or the Intellivision II. It's been years since the 360 came out, can't they pinpoint the problem and rework the design and make it more reliable?

[otaku]

my original had stuttering problems, then RROD then disc drive issues and finally it would work sometimes and not others and ran extremely hot. I traded it in towards an elite (jasper I believe) here's hoping I don't end up with e74

[swlovinist]

The problem is that there is no denying that the 360 has hardware issues.....What makes people keep coming back is the game lineup. I do have to say that if a system crapped out on me more than a couple of times, then I would be forever biased towards the company.

Holy cow, MS needs to make a redesign and not a stupid mini fix that does not work.

[darkslime]

i bet at e3 a new design will be announced

[skaar]

Also people like to keep it in an enclosed AV cabinet :D

[boatofcar]

It's a good thing we're finally bringing this topic too light. There should be a ton more threads about RROD'ing 360s.

[ProgrammingAce]

Yep, my second one I might add. "Improved" design my butt.


Production problems. The 360 wasn't supposed to be as powerful as what it is until the higher ups complained. It didn't have enough of a heat sink which causes the problem. Well at least that's what I read on a Kotaku story or something.

I do think though that the 360 is the only console to have a problem hat completely destroys the system with no warning. True, PS2s eventually stopped reading discs, but that was years later. 360s break randomly.

Of course it does have some great games though...


But you would think that Microsoft would get off its ass and re-engineer the damn thing so that this wouldn't happen any more, years after the console has hit the market. They've known about the problem for some time, but are doing very little to fix it. Their new models, the 'Jaspers', seem to break down a little less than the originals.

My original 360 has given me the RRoD late last year, but I haven't sent it back yet. What's the point if that one will break, and the next, and the next? I'm a collector, and I have to look at it from a longevity point of view. Will I still have a working 360 in twenty years time? Hell no, I can't guarantee I'll have a working one in twenty weeks time. Why should I keep buying games for it and giving them money for a badly engineered product? In past generations, the console manufacturers have re-engineered their consoles either to make them less costly to manufacture or to make them more reliable. Case in point, the PS2 Slim, Genesis model 2 or the Intellivision II. It's been years since the 360 came out, can't they pinpoint the problem and rework the design and make it more reliable?

Gah, are you people serious?

And for the OP, if you would send your xbox to microsoft, you'd have a much better chance at getting a stable console then by taking it back to gamestop...

[Gemini-Phoenix]

Because the games are good, XBLA is awesome, and Microsoft stepped up to the plate, and gave people a way to replace what was defective pretty easily.

The original XBox had issues, the PS2 had a lot of problems (I gather...still on my launch day model) and the toaster NES had its problems too...if the games are there, a system can pretty much survive anything hardware related I think.

As Sega soon found out with the Dreamcast though, this will only go on for so long before they decide to pull the plug on the replacements. It's bad enough that Microsoft state a 30% failure rate (How many million X360's have been sold? And 30% of that is still a lot!), but soon they will lose interest in the X360 and move on with its successor and stop replacing defective hardware, and then we'll soon see how quickly their sales fall once people realise that they're buying a console with a very short half-life...

To me a console, if looked after properly and used in a reasonable manner as intended, should last a lifetime. Take the Atari 2600 or NES for examples - Many of those are still alive and kicking (In various conditions), with many just requiring a good old cleaning (Those originally looked after well don't even require new pin connectors etc). 25 years these consoles have lasted, yet modern high-tech consoles can barely even see out the generation they were born into! This just isn't on, and you at least expect to buy a launch model and it to be still working come the dawn of a new generation at the very least!

[ProgrammingAce]

As Sega soon found out with the Dreamcast though, this will only go on for so long before they decide to pull the plug on the replacements. It's bad enough that Microsoft state a 30% failure rate (How many million X360's have been sold? And 30% of that is still a lot!), but soon they will lose interest in the X360 and move on with its successor and stop replacing defective hardware, and then we'll soon see how quickly their sales fall once people realise that they're buying a console with a very short half-life...

Microsoft has never publicly given a number on the failure rate.

I'm going to get into some specifics here. The 360 was brought down by something as simple as solder. The problem is, they went with an RoHS compliant solder. These solders were new to manufacturing when the 360 went into production. Metallurgists still aren't sure what the long term effects of these solders will do to the electronics that use them.

The fact of the matter is that the 360 has never had an overheating problem. What it does have is an intolerance to drastic thermal changes. Each time the solder heats up and cools off, it begins to change the structure of the metal making it more brittle. The more you temperature cycle your console, the worse the problem will get.

Microsoft tried all sorts of various solders to get around the problem, but they all ran into some sort of thermal breakdown. It wasn't until Microsoft brought in a 3rd party to redesign the manufacturing process that they finally found a way to mitigate the issue.

The only reason the PS3 doesn't have the same issue is that the CELL CPU doesn't get as hot. I imagine that over the course of the next decade, PS3's are going to start seeing thermal breakdown as well. They're not using some magical solder that's immune to the problem.


http://www.emtworldwide.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=13556


In their Review of the RoHS Directive Categories 8 and 91, ERA Consultants identified five main concerns related to the reliability of lead free solders: manufacturing defects, thermal fatigue, tin whiskers, vibration and effects of g-forces, and corrosion. With regards to thermal fatigue, ERA found that, “Estimation of field life from accelerated test data should be possible within the next five years but this is not yet possible with sufficient certainty for the most safety critical applications.”

Basically what that's saying, lead-free solder is far less reliable and we're years away from having the means to test the actual durability of the materials.

Now add in the fact that lead-free solder is actually more dangerous, and you see why the law is just a knee-jerk reaction to the word "lead".

[s1lence]

Sucks to be you, send it in.

Glad we can have another one of these threads to take a giant shit in.

[Ed Oscuro]

Anti-MS guy I know says the 3-year warranties will be running out on the early adopters soon (I'm assuming they put those into place later or else it would've already happened). Anybody wanna bet Microsoft would chuck gamers to the wolves when warranties run out? I don't (that'd be class action for sure).

[Foxglove9]

After 2.5 years of light usage my Xbox360 started to get the RRoD. Oddly enough only with Sacred 2, but still I decided to cash in on the replacement with MS while I can. I also went out and bought a Jasper Arcade unit cause I thought those were pretty stable.

Now I just need to sell my original 360 since it got the clean bill of health from MS.

Many systems had problems in the past. I think it's great that MS is willing to replace a whole console 3 years later. I'm not a big MS fan but that's more than Sony or Nintendo (especially) would ever do.

[scooterb23]

6th XBox 360? What the hell are you doing to them? I'm beginning to believe the systems are committing suicide.

[RyanMurf]

Gah, are you people serious?

And for the OP, if you would send your xbox to microsoft, you'd have a much better chance at getting a stable console then by taking it back to gamestop...

Not so true ace, atleast by taking it back to gamestop you are getting back another new console. With ms your just getting a used refurb. So gamestop is without a doubt the best route in getting a stable system.

[ProgrammingAce]

Not so true ace, atleast by taking it back to gamestop you are getting back another new console. With ms your just getting a used refurb. So gamestop is without a doubt the best route in getting a stable system.

Um?

When you send your console into Microsoft, they replace the mainboard with a newly engineered model using the latest manufacturing techniques. They actually created a new motherboard design specifically for the RRoD consoles that were sent in.

Gamestop, on the other hand, will just give you whatever is sitting in their stock room. Hope it's the new design. Hell, they could have original Xenons back there for all you know.

[RyanMurf]

Um?

When you send your console into Microsoft, they replace the mainboard with a newly engineered model using the latest manufacturing techniques. They actually created a new motherboard design specifically for the RRoD consoles that were sent in.

Gamestop, on the other hand, will just give you whatever is sitting in their stock room. Hope it's the new design. Hell, they could have original Xenons back there for all you know.

Your so called "re engineered model using the latest manufacturing techniques" is just a small heat sink add on. And by now all of gamestops inventory is all revised models. Plus it is used. A new console is the best way to have a more stable system. Even the newer systems have your "re engineered model using the latest manufacturing techniques"

[kupomogli]

Solution.

Buy a PS3. I sold my 360. I won't go through the trouble of having 47 different systems and wasting gas money or time sending it back to Microsoft whenever it dies. It's an amazing system atleast when it comes to the games, but the controller and the problems with the system are things about it I don't like.

[ProgrammingAce]

Your so called "re engineered model using the latest manufacturing techniques" is just a small heat sink add on. And by now all of gamestops inventory is all revised models. Plus it is used. A new console is the best way to have a more stable system. Even the newer systems have your "re engineered model using the latest manufacturing techniques"

Again, no.

When i say they re-engineered the manufacturing process, i mean it. They're using a new form of wave soldering along with a new alloy in the solder. Microsoft brought in a 3rd party to design it, and spent millions retooling their facilities for the new process.

So no, it's not just a small heat sink.

[GarrettCRW]

Anti-MS guy I know says the 3-year warranties will be running out on the early adopters soon (I'm assuming they put those into place later or else it would've already happened). Anybody wanna bet Microsoft would chuck gamers to the wolves when warranties run out? I don't (that'd be class action for sure).

Soon? My recently RRoD 360 is from that early adopter window, and if I send the thing in, I'll be ponying up $100.

[scooterb23]

Solution.

Buy a PS3. I sold my 360. I won't go through the trouble of having 47 different systems and wasting gas money or time sending it back to Microsoft whenever it dies. It's an amazing system atleast when it comes to the games, but the controller and the problems with the system are things about it I don't like.

Why buy a PS3, when a simple Magic 8 Ball will work as a paperweight?

FLAME ON! :D -- I forgot the smiley :D

[RyanMurf]

Again, no.

When i say they re-engineered the manufacturing process, i mean it. They're using a new form of wave soldering along with a new alloy in the solder. Microsoft brought in a 3rd party to design it, and spent millions retooling their facilities for the new process.

So no, it's not just a small heat sink.

HmmmmmMMMmm.. I cant seem to think thats true...I see all of these systems coming back from MS multiple times for ONE system witht he same problem. even if they do "what you say they do" It is still not working. Id still stick with an instant Game stop replacement.

[GarrettCRW]

I believe the third party coming in to analyze the situation is a fairly recent development.

How 'bout I bet you $100 that Prog is right, and you're wrong?

[MachineGex]

Well, it has been about a year since I sent in my 360 for repairs. It has worked fine since I got it back until yesterday. It took a long time to fire up and when it finally did, I got a RRoD. This system has been probably 300 hours on it since the last repair and now it is in the mail again to get fixed.

If I did not own so many 360 games, I would sell the damn thing. I do know one thing, I will not be buying another MS system until it is 2-3 years old.

[RyanMurf]

I believe the third party coming in to analyze the situation is a fairly recent development.

How 'bout I bet you $100 that Prog is right, and you're wrong?

I never said that he was wrong I just stated that I dont think what he said microsoft is doing is actually working. And who are you to bet 100.00 thats petty cash. Make a REAL bet :p

[BHvrd]

Microsoft has never publicly given a number on the failure rate.

I'm going to get into some specifics here. The 360 was brought down by something as simple as solder. The problem is, they went with an RoHS compliant solder. These solders were new to manufacturing when the 360 went into production. Metallurgists still aren't sure what the long term effects of these solders will do to the electronics that use them.

The fact of the matter is that the 360 has never had an overheating problem. What it does have is an intolerance to drastic thermal changes. Each time the solder heats up and cools off, it begins to change the structure of the metal making it more brittle. The more you temperature cycle your console, the worse the problem will get.

Microsoft tried all sorts of various solders to get around the problem, but they all ran into some sort of thermal breakdown. It wasn't until Microsoft brought in a 3rd party to redesign the manufacturing process that they finally found a way to mitigate the issue.

The only reason the PS3 doesn't have the same issue is that the CELL CPU doesn't get as hot. I imagine that over the course of the next decade, PS3's are going to start seeing thermal breakdown as well. They're not using some magical solder that's immune to the problem.


http://www.emtworldwide.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=13556



Basically what that's saying, lead-free solder is far less reliable and we're years away from having the means to test the actual durability of the materials.

Now add in the fact that lead-free solder is actually more dangerous, and you see why the law is just a knee-jerk reaction to the word "lead".

Very good post and truly gets down to the truth of the problem.

PS3 will also get the YLOD if you don't clean out the heatsink from time to time, but 360 seems to breakdown even when it's new which I think is mainly as you say "cause of the processors".

I did a reflow on my PS3 and it has been running like a beaut for 2 weeks now (http://www.digitpress.com/forum/showthread.php?t=133004), putting on some new thermal compound did wonders to the way games even played, not as much lagging, i'm sure it would help 360 even more.

Though I think in general 360 just has cheaper component parts all around as i've had ones with faulty trays and disc reading problems as well which i've never had with PS3.

[RyanMurf]

Ace I just wanted to let you know that I have been thinking about our recent discussions on multiple situations. My final argument/slash advise for you is that my statements are made from first hand experience in a retail store specifically dealing with all of these problems. I have found to get an answer you can trust you must do all the dirty work for yourself to get the truth. The only difference between me and you is that you get all of your answers from a piece of paper or computer screen which comes straight from Microsoft or a company Microsoft has hired to do research on their console. I'm sorry but I really don't trust anything that comes from a company that has lost millions of dollars. I just wanted to be blunt with you and tell you that Your constant authoritative positions on these topics are based not on your own work or projects but of only pieces of paper or web pages that have results you speak of. So all im saying ace is that sometimes it doesn't hurt to do your own work before speaking on other researchers behalf.

[GarrettCRW]

http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/picard-facepalm.jpg





That is all.

[Eternal Tune]

Better yet Garrett:

http://spaceballsthewebsite.com/tune/1246044247622.jpg

[Greg2600]

If I did not own so many 360 games, I would sell the damn thing. I do know one thing, I will not be buying another MS system until it is 2-3 years old.
That's been my stance on any system, although Nintendo's are pretty much indestructible.

PS: Arguing over the cause of the 360 failures is really fruitless, because it ignores the main issue. How Microsoft has not redesigned the system by now to correct the problems? I've heard the latest version sold over the past winter and spring is much better, but Microsoft's handling of this has severely harmed the success of the system.

[duffmanth]

Because people don't know enough to stop buying the piece of shit.

[scooterb23]

Because people don't know enough to stop buying the piece of shit.

Which piece of shit would you rather people buy? The shitty Nintendo system that isn't HARDCORE, or the overpriced Sony piece of shit that still doesn't have enough good games to warrant the price?

Don't you get it yet? All the systems are just a different consistency of shit...as gamers we choose which pile of shit we want to jump into and wallow around in. So find the pile of shit you like, and enjoy it...eat it up. Just stop trying to piss into my pile of shit.

THE ARISTOCRATS!

[kupomogli]

PSP > DS > All other current gen consoles.

[duffmanth]

I have the over priced Sony 60GB piece of shit, and I've had no problems with it for the almost 2 years I've had it. And by the way the PS3 does have more than enough great games to support the price, and it's been that way for at least the last year or so.

The 360 is THE biggest piece of shit in gaming history. I've been gaming for a long time and I've never seen a system in all of those years with so many problems for such an extended period of time.

[duffmanth]

You should really think about taking a sledge hammer to it and maybe go with another console altogether. I can understand some of the launch 360's having some issues, but for these problems to still be lingering 3 and half years after launch day is fucking pathetic. The bottom line is MS was in such a rush to beat Sony to the market, they rushed production of the 360 and what's happened the last 3 years is the result.

[Therealqtip]

GO WII!!!! But really the PS3 is getting way better games now, the 360 games are not exclusive I can't really think of one exclusive game the 360 has oh wait Gears of War 2 for now at least till it goes on Windows.

[Press_Start]

Don't you get it yet? All the systems are just a different consistency of shit...as gamers we choose which pile of shit we want to jump into and wallow around in. So find the pile of shit you like, and enjoy it...eat it up. Just stop trying to piss into my pile of shit.


What about PSP and DS? Or PS2, Gamecube, and Xbox and their last-gen games readily available at your local Gamestop for a mere fraction what the new-gen asks for? If everything sucks, why not sell the Wii/PS3/360, clean the sh!t off, and wait for next-gen? Cause no one's holding a gun to our dog's head for otherwise.

[scooterb23]

*watches as his clever attempt to make a "who cares which console you support, it doesn't really matter, just enjoy what you want" post flies harmlessly over everyone's head, and flutters into the ocean*

@ Press Start - those would be considered "old shit" just as Atari 2600 would be "Way old shit" see? It was a gag to try and get a point across...

[Press_Start]

*watches as his clever attempt to make a "who cares which console you support, it doesn't really matter, just enjoy what you want" post flies harmlessly over everyone's head, and flutters into the ocean*

@ Press Start - those would be considered "old shit" just as Atari 2600 would be "Way old shit" see? It was a gag to try and get a point across...

Sry man. Hard to interpret it that way when, compared to other-gens so far, this console generation sucks. You know it's bad when a good chuck of arguments are sh!tsling other systems just to make their's look good. Like politics....except we win an overinflated ego with complimentary angry mob armed with pin needles.

[Iron Draggon]

because MS fanboy sheeple are dumb enough to keep on putting up with it instead of just selling the system and all their games for it like they should be doing to give MS the message that this sort of bullshit won't be tolerated... and because your only other option for playing 360 games is to buy the PC versions and play them on a system that actually works like it's supposed to... but that would make you uncool with all your MS fanboy sheeple friends!

so when MS offers you another steaming pile of shit, make sure to camp out for it in sheeple flocks on lauch day, like good little MS fanboys, and enjoy all the coolness that doing so earns you, because if you don't all your sheeple fanboy friends will make fun of you for not doing what the flock is doing... or do the same for Sony's latest steaming pile of shit, because all of Nintendo's systems are for children, despite the fact that none of their systems have ever had any major problems besides the well-known issues of the NES... and whatever you do, avoid gaming on the PC at all costs, because everybody knows that the PC is only for the internet, you're not supposed to play any games on it, and if you do you're the most uncool of the uncool for doing it!

also disregard the fact that you can play most MS & Sony console games on the PC for half the price of playing them on the latest steaming pile of shit, and use your favorite MS or Sony controller to do so, because you'll still be the most uncool of the uncool for even trying it... and if you don't heed all these warnings and go ahead and try it anyway, at least make sure that you don't tell anyone about it, because they'll just make fun of you and they sure as hell won't believe you if you discover that it's not as bad as everyone else says it is... besides, you'll just end up having to spend all the money that you saved on games to buy upgrades so you can keep on playing all the latest games, which will cost what it would cost you to buy the latest new console!

so to sum it all up, going through a bunch of shit like this just to play games on a console is totally cool, but going through far less shit than this just to play games on a PC is totally uncool... because you'll only look smart if you do something stupid, and you'll only look stupid if you do something smart!

[scooterb23]

I have a serious question.

WIth all the anti-Microsoft ranting in this thread...do any of you actually expect these screeds will actually change anybody's mind? I mean, the level of bombast and hyperbole is so high, that it is impossible to not just laugh at it.

These I hate Microsoft, I hate Sony, I hate Nintendo threads are almost 100% comedy pieces. Nobody can actually believe they are being taken seriously, can they?

[josekortez]

GO WII!!!! But really the PS3 is getting way better games now, the 360 games are not exclusive I can't really think of one exclusive game the 360 has oh wait Gears of War 2 for now at least till it goes on Windows.

Unfortunately, the Wii isn't much better as far as reliability. Mine was a launch system that bit the dust when I put Super Smash Bros Brawl in it, and Nintendo had to replace it completely since it wouldn't power on after I tried the game in it.

[Richter Belmount]

Xbox 360 sucks , especially cause of the rrod. Microsoft only manages to jizz on their customers faces and cock slap the whole gaming community. Xbots are the only ones left sucking off microsoft.

[s1lence]

GO WII!!!! But really the PS3 is getting way better games now, the 360 games are not exclusive I can't really think of one exclusive game the 360 has oh wait Gears of War 2 for now at least till it goes on Windows.


ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL

Maybe we should all go back to playing our Dreamcasts because no one think that sucked? Oh wait then everyone was saying how the PS2 and Gamecube were better.

Scooter said it right, they are all pieces of shit, just pick which one you want to play with. If you want to play all the "good" games you will need all the systems anyway.

I have all the systems and I deal with all of it, and I deal with the RR0D JUST like I deal with PS2 disc read errors, a PS1 I have to turn upside down, Dreamcasts that stop reading discs, Nintendos with blinking lights, Gamecubes that don't power up, PS3's that freeze after updates, DSes with bad battery packs, N64 that have bad analog sticks, Wii's shovelware, and PC gaming conflicts.

Pick your fucking poison and move on.

Can this thread fucking die now like the 200 RR0D threads that came before it.

[ProgrammingAce]

so to sum it all up, going through a bunch of shit like this just to play games on a console is totally cool, but going through far less shit than this just to play games on a PC is totally uncool... because you'll only look smart if you do something stupid, and you'll only look stupid if you do something smart!

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/cutting_edge.png

[Rob2600]

the Wii isn't much better as far as reliability.

You're right, a 1% failure rate isn't much better than a 30% failure rate.

[mnbren05]

I'm sorry your 6th 360 died that is a real pain. I still have had no trouble with my original unit. Hope this one works out for you.