Sonic Crackers. What's it worth?

[Rob]

I am just curious, I am not selling.

This cart came from a friend of mine who was big into the prototype scene back in the mid 90s. This cart was a "freebie" in a large lot of Atari prototypes he purchased around 1997-1998. He stored it in a box and forgot about it until about 2 years ago when I acquired it.

Here are some pictures of it:

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d40/robivy64/DSCN1464.jpg

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d40/robivy64/DSCN1450.jpg

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d40/robivy64/DSCN1451.jpg

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d40/robivy64/soniccrackers.jpg

http://i32.photobucket.com/albums/d40/robivy64/DSCN1452.jpg

[Enigmus]

With the rate of the repros of Crackers circulating in the world, I'd say about $5.

[hellfire]

its worth more than 5$, its worth at least 50$

[Rob]

With the rate of the repros of Crackers circulating in the world, I'd say about $5.

I think you are confusing my Sonic Crackers cart with one of these:

http://smartcanucks.ca/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/subway-canada.jpg

[otoko]

its worth more than 5$, its worth at least 50$

If I remember correctly, A copy of Sonic Crackers went on ebay auction and commanded somewhere in the hundreds of dollars range. This was some time ago so I can't remember the exact price.

I'm trying to remember if it was found to be a fake or not.

[DreamTR]

It's worth about $400 or so. Might be a "little" less, but not sure why the above posters are feeding you those numbers.

[Clownzilla]

I think you are confusing my Sonic Crackers cart with one of these:

http://smartcanucks.ca/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/subway-canada.jpg

I think a five dollar foot long would be more related to a cheap MVS game:)

[BeaglePuss]

I would say the cart is worth between $250-$300. It would be worth a great deal more if it hadn't been dumped of course (regardless of whether or not your particular cart was the one that was dumped). It will still command descent cash because it's a Sonic title.

[Wickeycolumbus]

With the rate of the repros of Crackers circulating in the world, I'd say about $5.

Those EPROMs alone are worth more than $5!

[BeaglePuss]

Those EPROMs alone are worth more than $5!
I buy my EPROMS for $.50 apiece, so I'd price them at $4 :).

There's no way a unreleased Sonic prototype, dumped or otherwise, sells for less than $200.

[TheRedEye]

I'm terribly suspicious of the 50 or so Sonic Crackers protos that have popped up over the years. Why would anyone need to burn that many copies of such an early build of a game? Aren't they all the same build too?

[BeaglePuss]

I'm terribly suspicious of the 50 or so Sonic Crackers protos that have popped up over the years. Why would anyone need to burn that many copies of such an early build of a game? Aren't they all the same build too?
50!? Wow, I knew there were many but I had no idea that the number was that high. That's wild.

[ProgrammingAce]

I'm terribly suspicious of the 50 or so Sonic Crackers protos that have popped up over the years. Why would anyone need to burn that many copies of such an early build of a game? Aren't they all the same build too?

The only time i've ever seen this many copies of an unreleased game is when the deveoper is flat broke and is shopping around for a publisher. Since it's a Sega in-house game, that doesn't really apply here.

And with so many copies out there, why did it take so long to get dumped?

[Pete Rittwage]

The EPROMS are soldered in (manufactured) so they must have made a lot of these. It's not a one-off burn for testing.

[DreamTR]

Pete, you are incorrect. It does not matter if the EPROMS are soldered or not. People seem to think that is what makes a proto for some reason. If it was "manufactured" there would be ROMs as the chips. I've seen protos of all types and being soldered onto boards means absolutely nothing.

I don't think there have been "50" but definitely about 10-15 of these. CLint Dyer had a few..

My guess is someone had some blank PCBs and burned EPROMS to them. I don't know if that someone was Clint, but considering these weren't sold by him for a lot of money, It's very unlikely.

[TheRedEye]

50!? Wow, I knew there were many but I had no idea that the number was that high. That's wild.

I was exaggerating, like DreamTR said it's probably more like 10-15.

[Wickeycolumbus]

I've seen protos of all types and being soldered onto boards means absolutely nothing.


If a programmer was simply making a test build, it would waste time and money to solder the EPROMs. Socketed boards are most likely test builds, and soldered ones, while still prototypes were most likely for review.

[BeaglePuss]

I was exaggerating, like DreamTR said it's probably more like 10-15.
Well 10-15 doesn't seem that extraordinary then.

I mean, I have nine copies of Heavyweight Championship Boxing (GB) and something like 4 copies of Pitfall (SNES). There's also something like five NTSC copies of Solomon's Key 2 floating around.

I agree that 10-15 is a higher amount than what's typically found, but not enough so to make me scratch my head.

[BeaglePuss]

If a programmer was simply making a test build, it would waste time and money to solder the EPROMs. Socketed boards are most likely test builds, and soldered ones, while still prototypes were most likely for review.
I have Pitfall prototypes for both SNES and Genesis that have dramatic differences when compared to the released version. Both prototypes have soldered chips. The builds are so early that I seriously doubt they were use for (magazine) reviews.

Although it's more common to see socketed EPROMs on true prototypes, soldered chips are not out of the ordinary.

[Wickeycolumbus]

I have Pitfall prototypes for both SNES and Genesis that have dramatic differences when compared to the released version. Both prototypes have soldered chips. The builds are so early that I seriously doubt they were use for (magazine) reviews.

Although it's more common to see socketed EPROMs on true prototypes, soldered chips are not out of the ordinary.

When I said 'review', I did not necessarily mean that it was sent out to magazines. It could have been sent to some where within the company so they could see how the game was coming along. When actually developing the game, it would make no sense to solder the EPROMs in, as it would take longer to do an already time consuming task, and waste money (the EPROMs and PCB could not easily be reused).

[BeaglePuss]

When I said 'review', I did not necessarily mean that it was sent out to magazines. It could have been sent to some where within the company so they could see how the game was coming along. When actually developing the game, it would make no sense to solder the EPROMs in, as it would take longer to do an already time consuming task, and waste money (the EPROMs and PCB could not easily be reused).
That's exactly why I put the word "Magazine" in parenthesis.

I completely understand what you're saying, but it doesn't change the fact (for whatever reason) that many prototypes are found soldered. It doesn't make sense to me either, but I happen to own at least two examples myself.

[Pete Rittwage]

The only other possibility is that these carts are able to reprogram the EPROMs "through" the cart. You could easily pull the stickers and put the whole cart under UV, then you just need the programming voltage on the right pins. I don't know if that's possible or not on this design.

[ProgrammingAce]

Somehow you've managed to convince yourself that corporations strive to be efficient. I have no idea what would have given you that impression.

[Pete Rittwage]

I've always worked for small companies with shoestring budget. :)

[Enigmus]

I think you are confusing my Sonic Crackers cart with one of these:

http://smartcanucks.ca/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/subway-canada.jpg

No, but that's how big the Neo Geo protos are. And those are definitely not$5!

[TheRedEye]

Well 10-15 doesn't seem that extraordinary then.

I mean, I have nine copies of Heavyweight Championship Boxing (GB) and something like 4 copies of Pitfall (SNES). There's also something like five NTSC copies of Solomon's Key 2 floating around.

I agree that 10-15 is a higher amount than what's typically found, but not enough so to make me scratch my head.

All of the above examples were more than likely shipped out externally to magazines, etc. Sonic Crackers is a very early game that was never even announced, and it's entirely possible that every known copy has soldered EPROMs and the exact same build number.

The only possibility I can think of is that the team needed to burn a bunch of copies for internal review (as I think someone already mentioned in this thread), but that many? And why soldered?

By the way, most carts that are sent out externally are probably soldered as an anti-piracy measure. I know at least one ex-magazine dude who copied all socketed EPROMs that he came across.

[DreamTR]

Wickey Columbus: That's incorrect also. People always tend to think they know what companies did with their stuff. I have a socketed Duck Tales proto that is way different. All the socketed Sega Master System protos that zach came across were all socketed and very different. People said the same thing you did: "Socketed means they are likely review copies" which is 100% untrue. You just don't know until you actually play the games. I've had so many protos over the years that are socketed and way different. Heck, I have some with production ROMS that are different!

[Wickeycolumbus]

Wickey Columbus: That's incorrect also. People always tend to think they know what companies did with their stuff. I have a socketed Duck Tales proto that is way different. All the socketed Sega Master System protos that zach came across were all socketed and very different. People said the same thing you did: "Socketed means they are likely review copies" which is 100% untrue. You just don't know until you actually play the games. I've had so many protos over the years that are socketed and way different.

I am sure you have all kinds of socketed and un-socketed protos, but that is besides the point. There is absolutely no way to tell if the proto was intended for testing or review based on playing the game, no matter how incomplete it is. Only the programmer/the person that burned the cart can answer that question. All I am saying is that soldered carts are most likely for review because it makes no sense to solder EPROMs while developing a game. I am not saying that I am 100% correct here, I am telling you this based on common sense and personal experience.


Heck, I have some with production ROMS that are different!

Are you sure they are production ROMs and not EEPROMS (note the extra E) or flash chips?

[DreamTR]

I am sure you have all kinds of socketed and un-socketed protos, but that is besides the point. There is absolutely no way to tell if the proto was intended for testing or review based on playing the game, no matter how incomplete it is. Only the programmer/the person that burned the cart can answer that question. All I am saying is that soldered carts are most likely for review because it makes no sense to solder EPROMs while developing a game. I am not saying that I am 100% correct here, I am telling you this based on common sense and personal experience.



Are you sure they are production ROMs and not EEPROMS (note the extra E) or flash chips?


Personal experience is only limited to YOUR personal experience. You can not assume that every single programmer shared your experience in doing that.

Let me ask you this, how many prototype cartridges have you come across from different sources? I own over 1,100 of them from all types of sources and companies and they are not in tune to what you say. Regardless of whether or not something makes "sense" or not, they don't want reviewers to just take chips out of sockets unless they are using the same cart(s) and sending them EPROMS only. That did not happen all the time.

And yes, I am 100% those production ROMs are not EEPROMS or Flash Chips. They are for Crystalis (on a proto PCB, but with ROM chips) and AD&D Dragons of Flame (different long EPROM bard, but has ROM chips)

[Friend of Sonic]

Personal experience is only limited to YOUR personal experience. You can not assume that every single programmer shared your experience in doing that.

Let me ask you this, how many prototype cartridges have you come across from different sources? I own over 1,100 of them from all types of sources and companies and they are not in tune to what you say. Regardless of whether or not something makes "sense" or not, they don't want reviewers to just take chips out of sockets unless they are using the same cart(s) and sending them EPROMS only. That did not happen all the time.

And yes, I am 100% those production ROMs are not EEPROMS or Flash Chips. They are for Crystalis (on a proto PCB, but with ROM chips) and AD&D Dragons of Flame (different long EPROM bard, but has ROM chips)

I would love a Sonic Crackers proto. Actually, speaking on behalf of the Sonic community I'd love a Sonic 1 beta. I'd be a huge hero for releasing it. \\^_^/

[Buyatari]

I bought one on a HUGE board. Nothing like what yours looks like for 500 or so. Years later I sold it for 500 or so.

[InsaneDavid]

I think you are confusing my Sonic Crackers cart with one of these:

http://smartcanucks.ca/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/subway-canada.jpg

Actually, that shall feed the troll nicely.