snes proto??

[Masco73]

I picked up these 2 games at a garage sale maybe 2-3 years ago. I just came across them again and was wondering if anyone could give me some info.

http://imagehost.vendio.com/preview/ma/masco/sneshypervball.jpg

http://imagehost.vendio.com/preview/ma/masco/snesbust.jpg

http://imagehost.vendio.com/preview/ma/masco/snesbustb.jpg

The first hyper v-ball says sample and has a type writen label. The second is Bust a move with a computer printed laminated label. At first I thought someones label came off and they made a new one. Then after I noticed a label with numbers on the back. Why would someone make a label for the back? The other thing is the screw holes are filled in with black plastic. These thing led me to believe It could be a proto. I don't have an original bust a move to compare it to, but I think it is a complete version. Also, It does not feel any heavier than any other snes cart I have.

Anybody have any guesses or something similar?? Any idea of value??

Thanks!!

[Ed Oscuro]

Why do folks have to call sample or review copies "protos"? It's misleading and entirely untrue. What you have isn't production, it's obviously more rare than a production quality (did they even make that first game?) but it's not a proper "prototype."

[digitalpress]

Why do folks have to call sample or review copies "protos"? It's misleading and entirely untrue. What you have isn't production, it's obviously more rare than a production quality (did they even make that first game?) but it's not a proper "prototype."

In all fairness to Masco73, he's NOT saying it's a proto, he's asking if it is.

Now, because I'm often just plain daft please explain. If the game ISN'T the retail version, doesn't that in fact make it a prototype? Enlighten me!

[Masco73]

Thanks DP for the backup on that. I thought it was pretty clear I was asking not stating," snes proto??" in the subject title. I have no experience with protos, how would I know?? I understand the sample isn't one, but what about the other??

[Ed Oscuro]

While it's common practice to call a retail demo a "prototype" (Indeed, I may have just done that with my HP95lx post,) the term "prototype" really should only apply to products designed in-house to test out a design. With the car manufacturing business, it's cut and dry: prototype vehicles are usually destroyed in testing.

In the game world, though, I'll accept review copies being called "prototypes" since a game developer usually doesn't need many cartridges to test out a product--especially if they have good system emulation hardware.

Just venting ;)

Good stuff, though, and I'm very glad you took the time to post pictures.

[orrimarrko]

While it's common practice to call a retail demo a "prototype" (Indeed, I may have just done that with my HP95lx post,) the term "prototype" really should only apply to products designed in-house to test out a design. With the car manufacturing business, it's cut and dry: prototype vehicles are usually destroyed in testing.

In the game world, though, I'll accept review copies being called "prototypes" since a game developer usually doesn't need many cartridges to test out a product--especially if they have good system emulation hardware.

Just venting ;)

Good stuff, though, and I'm very glad you took the time to post pictures.

Problem is Ed, you have proven Joe's point. Either a game has been released for retail or it hasn't. In the case of these items, at the time they were released for review, they were still in the "prototype" stage - not yet officially released to the public.

Just because it's called a "review" copy doesn't make it any less of a prototype - it's just further along in the process. Calling it a "review" copy doesn't exclude it from being a proto, that's just semantics.

Just my two cents...

[Ed Oscuro]

True dat. As long as I make it obvious where I'm coming from, I've no problem.

[nesman85]

nice find there masco! yes, they are BOTH prototypes, even the "sample" one. protos are anything made before the game is published, some are used to test for bugs, others are sent out for review, and others for other things, but they are all still prototypes. snes protos that are on small boards like the ones you have usually go for around $50 or less. you should open up hyper vball and take a pic of the board, if you've got the right type of screwdriver. :)

[hydr0x]

mh i do not really agree on the proto definition here

i'd say the copies send out to mags for PREVIEWS are protos, but the ones send out for REVIEWS are final versions, they will not be changed again in 99%, there are some who were changed but not many, and mostly there was a second review then. for me a proto is a version that still differs from the retail version in some way, most review-carts don't differ

[sniperCCJVQ]

What about those definitions ?

pro·to·type
n.

1. An original type, form, or instance serving as a basis or standard for later stages.
2. An original, full-scale, and usually working model of a new product or new version of an existing product.
3. An early, typical example.
4. Biology A form or species that serves as an original type or example.

[French, from Greek prtotupon, from neuter of prtotupos, original : prto-, proto- + tupos, model.] proto·typal
(-tpl) or proto·typic
(-tpk) or proto·typi·cal
(--kl) adj.

The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition. Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by the Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.


OR a short one:

prototype: 1. A pre-production, functioning specimen(s) that is the first of its type, typically used for the evaluation of design, performance, and/or production potential. 2. A model suitable for evaluation of design, performance, and production potential. [JP 1-02]

[hydr0x]

those definitions fit mine very well, a proto has to differ from the final version

[digitalpress]

mh i do not really agree on the proto definition here

i'd say the copies send out to mags for PREVIEWS are protos, but the ones send out for REVIEWS are final versions, they will not be changed again in 99%, there are some who were changed but not many, and mostly there was a second review then.

I'm sorry but you are absolutely wrong here. I've seen plenty of "review copies" that significantly differ from the released versions of the game. Ask Jason Wilson for a score of examples.

[hydr0x]

joe i know there are plenty of them (i didn't say there aren't) BUT u have to compare the number to the number of total games, ok 99% might be too high, but most were not changed (at least not from the last review version, remember, some games were re-reviewed or had updates in later issues of the mag or something like that)

of course this makes things complicated, you got to find out if ur review version differs from the final version, if it does, it's a proto, if not mh then it's just the final version with another label, at least this is what sounds logical to me and it fit's with snipers definitions

[digitalpress]

Well, if you stick with that complicated definition, then what would you call an in-house designed pre-release game that was not sent for review but also matches the retail (released) version?

Truckloads of Atari "lab label" cartridges that had previously been called "prototypes" would suddenly not fit your criteria.

[Masco73]

I can't believe my nice little find spurred on this debate. :D
I do agree with Joe. I think if it differs at all from the released retail version than It would be considered a prototype. Even if it is just a different label and the game doesn't differ at all. Maybe you could say anything that was not available for sale to the general public.

You could come up with prototype sub-catagories.

[hydr0x]

well joe i wouldn't call ur example a prototype, i know that nearly everyone does call it so but as Ed said, not everything everyone says is true (most gamers say that the ps2 is the technically best console -->true??). Sure, this is very debatable but according to the lexika definition a proto is
An original type, form, or instance serving as a basis or standard for later stages.

see, a basis or standard for later stages, this also defines that it has to differ from the final version, but i think u agreed on this. ur point is that a different label is enough to differ, but, as a game is not about the label or package but about the game (the code) i would stick with that only differences in the code itself make it a proto, ok a different hardware-side realization of the code would also make it a proto, but just a different package/label/whatever?? nah that doesn't make it a proto for me, at least not according the correct definition of a proto. some people would go even further and say only the first version of the game is a proto, but i don't think so. Proto is a word that is used inflationary (<<right??, argh my english sucks) but that doesn't mean that it's used correct, the opposite is the case

[digitalpress]

I guess the reason why this hasn't come up before is because the dictionary definitiion (much like the one you listed above) is exactly what everyone thinks. You're choosing to add your own *asterisk to that by stating that different labels are an exception and therefore don't count as prototypes.

I guess in the long run it doesn't really matter, does it? If you purchase or otherwise acquire one of these things it's your right to "label" it whatever you'd like - the facts remain the same.

Which leads us right back to the original post. He wasn't saying it's a prototype, he's asking if it is - and now it's up to him, given both arguments, to choose an answer that best suits his question.

[Ed Oscuro]

I think if it differs at all from the released retail version than It would be considered a prototype.

I personally would call a copy sent out for review a "Review Copy," but if it's different from the released version why not call it a prototype, really? It's only fair to say that. One possibility worth mentioning is that review copies might look different on the outside but have the same data as any normal copy. Would that be a prototype? Perhaps the answer is yes, since it's the "first object of that form," or one of many such first objects that take a certain form. Would the first cartridge from the prodution run be called a prototype? It should depend on whether it was used differently than others from the set.

[Masco73]

Here is a picture of the hyper v-ball board. I heard you guys talk about eprom and it does say that on it. What exactly does eprom mean??

http://imagehost.vendio.com/preview/ma/masco/sneseprom.jpg

[Ed Oscuro]

Erasable Programmable Read Only Memory.

Does the game seem to NEED battery backed memory? I see a battery in there.

[nesman85]

almost all of my snes protos have batteries on the board and most of them don't use it. i assume that the eprom boards just came with one in case it was needed.
hydrox, like joe said, you are completely wrong saying that almost all protos sent out for review are the final versions. i have a bunch of psx protos that had been sent out to magazines to review that are completely unfinished, but they do come with documents to let the reviewers know that its far from final. i also have some protos that were sent to prima to have player's guides made for them that aren't even final versions.
@everyone who says that protos sent out for review are review copies and not protos, maybe you would agree that they were protos if you knew that many companies have "prototype" or "beta" printed on their review copies, even ones that have data that is identical to the released version.
a different label than the released version doesn't mean that its a proto, but it can in some cases. games that were sent out to stores for demo have different labels, but they don't have eprom boards, and they are mass produced. even if they are different from the released version, that doesn't make those protos, they are still just demos. some real protos sent out for review have final production boards/roms in them, but don't have a final label. somebody posted an ljn proto like this not too long ago. technically it is still a proto because of the label, but the only way to verify that its authentic is if it has an official company's label.

[Needle]

What we have here is a battle of semantics.

Some review copies are prototypes. Some review copies are not prototypes. This is based on each specific game, not on a generalizaed definition.

A prototype can eventually be a finished product. By that, any prototype actually becomes NOT a prototype! Whew, try and follow that pretzel logic! In this sort of situation, the only difference between the prototype and the real game is the label.

I think maybe getting away from the definition of "prototype" is in order. Instead, further specifics about the actual game can be detailed. These answers may provide further evidence of a "review copy" or a "prototype" or a "beta release" or whatever you want to call it. :D

Is the game on the cartridge complete? Can you play through it from
beginning to end? Do all game options work?

It would seem that the answer to this question would answer almost everyone's questions. While ultimately the answer to "is this a prototype?" lies at the collector's discretion, others can judge when the contents of the game are disclosed.

[Ed Oscuro]

A prototype can eventually be a finished product. By that, any prototype actually becomes NOT a prototype! Whew, try and follow that pretzel logic! In this sort of situation, the only difference between the prototype and the real game is the label.

I don't follow you. The prototype may be identical to the finished product; that's provided for. Like my (very old) Webster's dictionary states, it's the original or model after which everything is formed. If we were talking about cars or perhaps handcarved bedposts, we could say that the Prototype serves a function of allowing extensive testing of a finished product (to guide them towards a more refined design) or as a literal guide to production. In making game cartridges or CDs there's little to test out since the process is fairly straightforward. Instead of pulling the first few units off the line, they're just checked over somewhat to see if they fit in the machine, work right, and they're sent onwards. "Prototype" is a word more meaningful in other industries.

We don't need to "get away from the definition." My big beef earlier was that people call items "prototypes" that are betas or demonstration/review copies. They aren't used as a guide to refine production. You might have a good subconscious system for identifying "prototypes" (prototypes or betas proper) and I won't try to take that away. As long as it's not used as a replacement for details (date burned to EPROM, version numbers, etc.) there is no real practical reason to fret over these details.

That said, there's no real reason why people can't use "prototype" and "beta" interchangably--as any good eBay bidder knows, it's not the label (L@@K! RARE!) you're interested in, but the story behind the item.

In other words--things are fine as they are. Temper your fits of pedantry with an eye to the practical, but don't try to dumb down things unnecessarily, either.