The Sega Neptune

[ReaXan]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v20/neofreak9193/SegaNeptuneindex.jpg


I saw this

http://www.longhornengineer.com/Projects/Neptune


and it made me began to think what Sega could have done to have kept their momentum going from the Genesis. The 32x shouldnt have been made and dare I say, even the Sega Saturn.

In all honesty, with the right marketing the Sega Neptune could have have carved out a big niche in the gaming market.

Reasons

*The 32X/Neptune was almost on par with the Saturn graphically. You didn't have CD quality music, but you still had graphics that were far superior to the Genesis/SNES

*Cartridge games were still fine in 1994, the N64 proved that you could make quality games on that format (Angel Studios proved how much you could fit on a cartridge with RE2). The Cartridge should have had its formal death when the Dreamcast/PS2 generation began.

*The cartridge games would have been higher, but the intitial cost of the system would have been good enough for the mainstream(199 to 249 max, compared to the 400 dollars Playstation and the CD format)

*In late 1994, it was getting cheaper to produce a Sega Genesis. The Model 3 proved that. The Neptune could have had backward compatability with the Genesis similiar to the converter base for the Master System/Gen
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I hate to sound like a Sega Fanboy but I really wish Sega would have held off on CD's until the Dreamcast. The Sega CD proved that the CD format didn't mean a better game.

Like the AVGN said, it should have been a standalone in the first place.

[Sonicwolf]

They should have cancelled the Pico, Saturn and Game Gear and stopped making regular Genesis' systems. The Neptune could have been sold instead so you could play the new 3d games and the regular Genesis games. Then they could have also made the mushroom 32x for Genesis-only owners. Then they could have then waited a few more years and released a really kickass console to compete with the 64 and the PS.

[Therealqtip]

The Neptune exsists? I thought that thing never had one console made cause they just said fiuck it and made the saturn

[weirdguy]

Technicaly it exists, as some people put a 32X in a Genesis shell. It's one hell of a hack job but it's doable. Almost done on mine.

[Tupin]

They made two non-functioning prototypes, which were just shells. One is in a video game museum somewhere and sometimes travels around to classic game conventions, and the other is at Sega of Japan's headquarters on display.

[PapaStu]

They made two non-functioning prototypes, which were just shells. One is in a video game museum somewhere and sometimes travels around to classic game conventions, and the other is at Sega of Japan's headquarters on display.

The 'videogame museum' shell is actually part of the CGE museum collection. When it comes out, it comes out for CGE's. I believe the picture posted by the OP is one that someone took at a CGE as I think i'm seeing corners of ID cards of other items around it.

[Tupin]

The 'videogame museum' shell is actually part of the CGE museum collection. When it comes out, it comes out for CGE's. I believe the picture posted by the OP is one that someone took at a CGE as I think i'm seeing corners of ID cards of other items around it.
Yeah, I figured it was in the CGE museum collection, that's probably the only reason there are pics on the net of it.

[Kid Fenris]

In all honesty, with the right marketing the Sega Neptune could have have carved out a big niche in the gaming market.

I love Sega fans, and I love the deluded little fantasies they concoct.

Yes, I'm sure that Sega would've fared better had the company backed a 1994 cartridge-based system that was less technically impressive than the Sega Saturn. Never mind that Nintendo, a company with more consistently successful first-party titles than Sega, lost third-party support and market share after going with a cartridge-based system in the mid-1990s. Things would've been totally different for Sega! Because they're SEGA and I LIKE THEM, DAMMIT.

If you're going to imagine alternate realities where Sega didn't ride its bike into a telephone pole over and over, at least think things through.

[Greg2600]

The 32X should never have been released, ditto the Neptune obviously. The Saturn was a clear next generation system with capabilities far exceeding the Genesis or Super Nintendo. They could have easily extended the life of the Genesis for current users or people who could only afford a discounted older system, same as Nintendo did with the SNES. The 32X was barely, yes barely more advanced than the Genesis, and way too expensive, which is why no one bought it. They would have been wiser to just continue releasing Genesis or even SegaCD games.

[Baloo]

IMHO, there's a lot of things Sega should've done here.

In 1995, Sega should've kept going with the Genesis and the 32x (Sega CD was fine enough to cut support for, same with Pico and Game Gear) along with the Saturn, because everyone knows that the Genesis still had a good 2-3 years with it, especially with the 32x. The 32x could've basically acted as a counterpart to the Saturn for owners of the Genesis who didn't want to buy the Saturn. Instead, they cut off the Genesis and killed themselves when the Saturn tanked.

[heybtbm]

The Sega Uranus doesn't have the same ring, does it.

[MASTERWEEDO]

the saturn shouldve been backwards compatible with the genesis, 32x and sega cd.

[Auzlander]

IMHO, there's a lot of things Sega should've done here.

In 1995, Sega should've kept going with the Genesis and the 32x (Sega CD was fine enough to cut support for, same with Pico and Game Gear) along with the Saturn, because everyone knows that the Genesis still had a good 2-3 years with it, especially with the 32x. The 32x could've basically acted as a counterpart to the Saturn for owners of the Genesis who didn't want to buy the Saturn. Instead, they cut off the Genesis and killed themselves when the Saturn tanked.

This quote says it all. Genesis could have gone allot further and in a few years be replaced by something different.

[8-bitNesMan]

The Sega Uranus doesn't have the same ring, does it.

No, it has a brown ring *rimshot*

[otaku]

I would have kept going with the genesis and can even see the 32x and sega cd add ons as fine to do but they handled the saturn launch all wrong and it should have had Sega cd support and genesis support would have been great. sega was major add on crazy.

[chrisbid]

the 32x and sega cd did not kill sega, they may have pulled resources from the genesis and saturn, but they were secondary problems.

two things killed sega

1- they abandoned the genesis too early and 2- the saturn was overpriced and underpowered

the 32x couldve been used as an inexpensive stopgap that addressed both of these problems by extending the life of the genesis and buying R&D time for the saturn, but sega never had a cohesive plan, only a bunch of bickering cliques... failure and hilarity ensue

[parallaxscroll]

The 32X should've never have been released. The SegaCD should've been given more advanced video processors for handling more sprites, colors and smoother scaling & rotation. The SegaCD would be the only upgrade the Genesis gets.


The Saturn that came out, with its mess of an architecture and poor 3D polygon capabilities, also should never have come out. Instead, Sega should've worked closely with IBM or Hitachi and most importantly, Lockheed Martin, to design a powerful, clean, 3D-capable console using PowerPC CPU and Lockheed Martin Real3D graphics chipset. The 3D polygon performance, texture-mapping and image quality would exceed the Model2 arcade board as well as the unreleased 3DO / Matsushita M2 console and the 3DFX Voodoo Graphics PC chipset, not to mention the lowly PS1 & N64 consoles by a huge margin. Lets just called it 'Exodus' to avoid confusion with Saturn. This would be the true successor to the Genesis and would see Sega through until at least 2000.

Therefore there would be no need to rush the Dreamcast out in 1998 & 1999, but instead prepare an even more powerful console of the PS2/GCN/Xbox1 generation, (codename 'Revelation') which would be fully back compatible with 'Exodus', and use an even more advanced PowerPC CPU + Real3D/ArtX designed (ATI) GPU.

[tomaitheous]

Why do people get so riled up about the Neptune? The 32x potential was held back by quite a few design flaws.



*The 32X/Neptune was almost on par with the Saturn graphically. You didn't have CD quality music, but you still had graphics that were far superior to the Genesis/SNES

Not even close. NOT EVEN close. 32x has no hardware acceleration for sprites, background layers, or any sort of 3D (flat shaded or textured polygons). Every thing was done manually, in software, by the two Hitachi CPUs. Also, the two CPUs were crippled when trying to access any ROM data. And it had a measly 256k of ram between them, when the two CPUs are busy fitting for the same 256k on that BUS (read: you're never going to hit max speed of either CPU when both are accessing rom or ram). To top it off, the frame buffer the CPU's have to manually write to - has wait states attached to it - slowly the process down further. Scrolling is pretty much limited to 30fps (unlike the SNES/TG/MD/GB/GBC/PSX/Saturn hell even the NES - which scroll at 60fps for sprites or background). 256k of ram is nothing compared to the size of VRAM of the Saturn, or it's main ram.

The 32x design is mainly designed for flat shaded polygon 3D. The 32x couldn't even do what the SNES could do graphically. It can't even match the Genesis' own VDP (video processor) output! That's quite far from the Saturn capabilities.



*Cartridge games were still fine in 1994, the N64 proved that you could make quality games on that format (Angel Studios proved how much you could fit on a cartridge with RE2). The Cartridge should have had its formal death when the Dreamcast/PS2 generation began.

The only thing N64 proved with sticking with cart format was Nintendo's failure to adopt the current and future trend. ROM space was much more expensive than CD-ROM media. 32megabytes (the larger late gen cart size) VS 700megabytes? Cart format at the time: no streaming audio, megabyte to megabyte ROM was hundreds of time more expensive, carts were kept smaller to keep cost down (i.e. something had to give game design wise), besides passing the extra cost to the customer - the developer also eat a good chunk of the cost of the rom chips (i.e. more expensive to develop for the N64). NEC proved back in '88 with the release of the PC-Engine CD that CD format was the way of the future for game development.


*The cartridge games would have been higher, but the intitial cost of the system would have been good enough for the mainstream(199 to 249 max, compared to the 400 dollars Playstation and the CD format)

Read above.


*In late 1994, it was getting cheaper to produce a Sega Genesis. The Model 3 proved that. The Neptune could have had backward compatability with the Genesis similiar to the converter base for the Master System/Gen


Given that the top selling games for NA were still Japanese designed games, where was Sega of America going to get these games from? Genesis wasn't exactly hot in Japan to begin with and software had all but dried up by late '94 for the Megadrive. Not to mention the 32x wasn't even supported in Japan (yeah, it got an official release but that's about it.). So unless you actually like that crappy US developed soft (and UK/EU dribble too for the most part), the Genesis and by extension the 32x had no software resource to compete with. I think people really fail to understand this.


I hate to sound like a Sega Fanboy but I really wish Sega would have held off on CD's until the Dreamcast. The Sega CD proved that the CD format didn't mean a better game.

The Saturn had a cart slot. It's a perfectly viable cart slot to boot game from too. No one was going to develop carts for the Saturn when CDs could be made for pennies on the dollar. The only thing the SegaCD proved as that Sega lacked the balls to make the SegaCD the new focus. NEC did the opposite and made the CD addon the main focus - dropping cart format early on. They proved that the CD format was extremely viable.

[Iron Draggon]

we've all been through this before...

1: Master System shouldn't have focused on barely upgraded rehashes of arcade games, and shouldn't have died an early death
2: Genesis shouldn't have focused on barely upgraded rehashes of Master System games, and shouldn't have died an early death
3: Sega CD shouldn't have focused on barely upgraded rehashes of Genesis games, and shouldn't have died an early death
4: 32X shouldn't have focused on barely upgraded rehashes of Sega CD games, and shouldn't have died an early death
5: Saturn shouldn't have focused on barely upgraded rehashes of 32X games, and shouldn't have died an early death
6: Dreamcast shouldn't have focused on barely upgraded rehashes of Saturn games, and shouldn't have died an early death
7: Sega is best left to remain an arcade publisher that ports its games to the PC and other consoles, and shouldn't have died an early death
8: If Sega ever released another console, it would focus on barely upgraded rehashes of Dreamcast games, and it would die an early death

lather, rinse, repeat...

[mobiusclimber]

I'm surprised there are ANY 32X supporters. That system had NO good games. Yeah, there are a few DECENT ones, but decent is all they are. The Sega CD, on the other hand, has a very rich, albeit small, library and several classic titles.

[Black_Tiger]

Much of what I was going to say has already been said. The 32X 'doesn't even compare' to the Saturn. It's basically like a generational difference in released game quality. Whether or not the 32X was a good idea or could've done well under different circumstances, I'm still glad that it exists and appreciate it for what it is.

The Saturn's 3D is just fine for the time. Even in the hands of poor developers, there wasn't that much difference between it and the average PSX game (I won't get into the N64). The difference is smaller than that between the Genesis and SNES. Sure Sega should've helped third parties more, but the end result overall turned out good enough and there are plenty of Saturn games with amazing 3D for the time.

I've noticed that discussions about the Saturn and/or Sega failing are always based around Sega. No one seems to give Sony any credit for the PSX or entertain the idea that no matter what Sega did, they might have still died out in the console market. Even Nintendo has been beat until recently. Which makes it kinda crazy that many people say that the Saturn should've been more like the N64.

[Baloo]

I'm surprised there are ANY 32X supporters. That system had NO good games. Yeah, there are a few DECENT ones, but decent is all they are. The Sega CD, on the other hand, has a very rich, albeit small, library and several classic titles.

I like the 32x myself for a couple of games, Star Wars Arcade and Knuckles Chaotix in particular. Both haven't been re-released and you can't play them anywhere else...so yeah. And I LOVE me some Knuckles Chaotix. One of my favorite Sonic games ever, it's so underrated IMO. There's also Fred Couples Golf, Mortal Kombat II, and Shadow Squadron. A couple of US exclusives for the 32x really suck though. T-mek, Cosmic Carnage, ugh... I also love NBA Jam T.E. on 32x, no load times and much better graphics than on Genesis.

[Baloo]

I've noticed that discussions about the Saturn and/or Sega failing are always based around Sega. No one seems to give Sony any credit for the PSX or entertain the idea that no matter what Sega did, they might have still died out in the console market. Even Nintendo has been beat until recently. Which makes it kinda crazy that many people say that the Saturn should've been more like the N64.

The failure is put on Sega because Sony wanted to team up with Sega in the beginning, but Sega pushed them away. They also had the chance to get Silicon Graphics for the Saturn, but again, Sega snubbed out SoA like the assholes they were. So they could've gotten both their competitors early on, but they were too stupid. Not to mention Bernie Stolar killing the US Saturn library with his "3D is the future, no 2D games" policy, since the Japanese Saturn library could've saved the Saturn due to how many good games it had. But it wasn't all his fault, the blame should be put more on SoJ.

So yeah, it really is all Sega's fault.

[Black_Tiger]

The failure is put on Sega because Sony wanted to team up with Sega in the beginning, but Sega pushed them away. They also had the chance to get Silicon Graphics for the Saturn, but again, Sega snubbed out SoA like the assholes they were. So they could've gotten both their competitors early on, but they were too stupid. Not to mention Bernie Stolar killing the US Saturn library with his "3D is the future, no 2D games" policy, since the Japanese Saturn library could've saved the Saturn due to how many good games it had. But it wasn't all his fault, the blame should be put more on SoJ.

So yeah, it really is all Sega's fault.

Sega snubbing Sony is still about Sony and Sega having the chance to have had N64-like graphics is still about the N64, which still failed against the PSX.

Hypotheticals are still just that. Sure if Sega had merged with Sony and Nintendo and there was no competition they would've come out on top. But even if they did most things right (like they did with the Dreamcast), they still could've done just as bad/less-good or worse.

If NEC had included SuperGrafx hardware in the Duo systems, would they have automatically beat the Super Famicom? The SMS was a beast compared to the NES. Nintendo may have used business style to win the 8-bit generation, but so did Sony later on.

I'm not saying that Sony would've won in any scenario, but Sega wouldn't have automatically won if they'd done a few things different either. Plus, if they had, they wouldn't have been the Sega that everyone loves.

[tomaitheous]

The failure is put on Sega because Sony wanted to team up with Sega in the beginning, but Sega pushed them away. They also had the chance to get Silicon Graphics for the Saturn, but again, Sega snubbed out SoA like the assholes they were. So they could've gotten both their competitors early on, but they were too stupid. Not to mention Bernie Stolar killing the US Saturn library with his "3D is the future, no 2D games" policy, since the Japanese Saturn library could've saved the Saturn due to how many good games it had. But it wasn't all his fault, the blame should be put more on SoJ.

So yeah, it really is all Sega's fault.

I don't buy the fact that lack of 2D support in the US had any real impact. 2D was a dieing genre, 3D was the next hottest/greatest thing according to gamers. It was in demand. The 2D titles on the PSX didn't have much to do with its success. And it's still a wide ratio at that on the PSX. If Symphony of the Night never came out to the US on PSX, it would have still been just as popular of a system.

Same with specs. Saturn looked fine compared to the PSX. There wasn't a huge difference and as history's showed - many "inferrior" systems had beaten out the competition in their day.

Also, Sega had a HUGE existing fan base compared to Sony starting from scratch, going into the 32bit generation.

[Baloo]

I don't buy the fact that lack of 2D support in the US had any real impact. 2D was a dieing genre, 3D was the next hottest/greatest thing according to gamers. It was in demand. The 2D titles on the PSX didn't have much to do with its success. And it's still a wide ratio at that on the PSX. If Symphony of the Night never came out to the US on PSX, it would have still been just as popular of a system.

Same with specs. Saturn looked fine compared to the PSX. There wasn't a huge difference and as history's showed - many "inferrior" systems had beaten out the competition in their day.

Also, Sega had a HUGE existing fan base compared to Sony starting from scratch, going into the 32bit generation.

It isn't the fact that there were no 2D games, it was the fact that early 3D games and the Playsation/Saturn SUCKED ASS, and all the 2D games on Saturn from Japan were fucking gold. Radiant Silvergun? X-men Vs. Street Fighter? Street Fighter Alpha 3? Guardian Heroes? THIS IS WHY SATURN DID WELL IN JAPAN!

If Saturn got good 3D games like Nintendo 64 did, it's quite possible that it could've survived. But all we got was NiGHTS...there's not a single other memorable game in the US Saturn library except for my personal favorite Sonic R.

[Melf]

If Saturn got good 3D games like Nintendo 64 did, it's quite possible that it could've survived. But all we got was NiGHTS...there's not a single other memorable game in the US Saturn library except for my personal favorite Sonic R.

Panzer Dragoon trilogy says wsup.

[Baloo]

Panzer Dragoon trilogy says wsup.

Panzer Dragoon Saga says Only 30,000 copies of me exist, so I cost $300.

Now tell me that's not a factor of aging.

[Melf]

But that has nothing to do with them being good 3D games. Whether they cost $5 or $500, all three are quality 3D titles. the Saturn has quite a few of them, but you just have to know where to look.

[Baloo]

But that has nothing to do with them being good 3D games. Whether they cost $5 or $500, all three are quality 3D titles. the Saturn has quite a few of them, but you just have to know where to look.

Does it involve me looking through the Japanese library? Because the US library doesn't have shit for memorable games just about.

[Black_Tiger]

If Saturn got good 3D games like Nintendo 64 did, it's quite possible that it could've survived. But all we got was NiGHTS...there's not a single other memorable game in the US Saturn library except for my personal favorite Sonic R.

The Saturn did survive, it just wasn't number one. It's no big deal. What's important is that we got so many great games from it.

Since NiGHTs is a 2D game, I guess that by "3D" you mean simply games that use some 3D graphics? Here are some that were released in North America-

Virtua Fighter 2
Shining Force
Daytona's
Sega Rally's
Virtual On's
Virtua Cop's
House of the Dead
Duke Nukem 3D
Powerslave
Quake
Shining the Holy Ark
Panzer Dragoon's
Fighting Vipers
Fighters Megamix
Die Hard Arcade
Iron Storm

I'd rather have a Saturn for the Shining Force III games alone. I'd also take the Saturn's 3D games over the N64's. But my tastes aren't popular (I like pre-current gen games for one thing). ;)

Do you think that the Dreamcast's has "good" 3D games? The Saturn has a similar library.

[Sonicwolf]

Do you think that the Dreamcast's has "good" 3D games? The Saturn has a similar library.

Both the Dreamcast and the Saturn had great games but here is the difference. The Saturn was released too soon and it wasnt developer friendly or as visually impressive as the PlayStation games were post-launch. By the mid 1990s, I believe north americans expected more bang for their buck and they saw the flow of titles and the visual elegance heading towards Sony so they bought along those lines. By the time the Saturn dropped low in price and got some really excellent titles, it was already considered the misfit third and buried here. The Dreamcast was released at a time of stagnancy in the gaming market. The PlayStation was whooping butt with the N64 chugging along far behind and it seems people wanted to look towards a new, more impressive console to get into and it was the Dreamcast. Unfortunately Sony did what Sega didnt and added DVD playback which was really a shot in the arm for them. The Dreamcast had an amazing library, like the Saturn, but it could not stand against the sheer power of the PlayStation fanbase.

All in all. Saturn and Dreamcast got their poor, nondeserving asses kicked by Sony. I think the gaming market will always have a vast empty hole that Sega left in 2001 that wont heal. Cheap, in depth, amazing quality games for everyone. Not like now. You either have super-violent FPS/horror, RPG games or a big box of waggleing shovelware.

[Greg2600]

I don't know the reason, perhaps it was the developer unfriendliness, but the Saturn really suffered from the lack of 3rd party support. The Playstation was huge with the games which were cross-platform with PC's. Plus, SEGA never was able to move Sonic into the next platform level, as Nintendo did with Mario. However, IMO, the Saturn suffered most from the two strikes SEGA put on itself with the failures of the SegaCD and 32X. You could argue the drop of Genesis support was a later strike, but the release of a Neptune would have been a huge third strike. The legacy of that era was that by the time the Dreamcast came around, the 3rd party publishers had no faith in SEGA whatsoever.

[Baloo]

I don't know the reason, perhaps it was the developer unfriendliness, but the Saturn really suffered from the lack of 3rd party support. The Playstation was huge with the games which were cross-platform with PC's. Plus, SEGA never was able to move Sonic into the next platform level, as Nintendo did with Mario. However, IMO, the Saturn suffered most from the two strikes SEGA put on itself with the failures of the SegaCD and 32X. You could argue the drop of Genesis support was a later strike, but the release of a Neptune would have been a huge third strike. The legacy of that era was that by the time the Dreamcast came around, the 3rd party publishers had no faith in SEGA whatsoever.

Why do people keep saying Sega CD was a failure? It sold 6 FUCKING MILLION units as an add-on for a system that sold 29 million units total, with a launch price of like $300. That means about 1 in every 5 genesis owners owned a Sega CD. That's no failure that's a success, especially for an add-on at such a high price. Get it right people, the Sega CD was NOT a failure, regulardless of what people on the internet rank it as on their worst system list, or whatever the fuck AVGN says. It did well.

The 32x was a failure sure, but that was bad marketing on Sega's part. Again referring to my past post, if Sega had kept going with the Genesis and 32x and released the Saturn, it could've been the cheap counterpart to the Saturn, gotten a bunch more games released on it, and could've been very successful. But of course SoJ had to be idiots and cancel EVERYTHING in favor of the Saturn, which was released far too early to try to one-up Sony, and ended up kicking themselves for it.

The reason the Saturn died was because the US library sucked ass overall and had no killer-app exclusives, and the list Black_Tiger posted was so small, it just wasn't worth the high Saturn price tag. The 1st party Saturn games weren't really worth purchasing the system over, no 3D Sonic platforming game except for re-releasing Sonic 3D Blast, No killer-apps, and it wasn't that much better than the Playstation graphically. Just about every 3rd party game on Saturn was pretty much already on Playstation. And the only games making up the Sega 1st party exclusives were mainly RPGs, which obviously weren't going to attract everyone. There was no killer-app for the Saturn, no Sonic game to attract people to buy it, no Triple-A first party titles like Nintendo 64 had. It's why the Saturn ultimately failed miserably in the states.

Dreamcast died for a number of reasons. 1 was that you could burn CD-Rs of games and play them on your Dreamcast no problem, so all the 3rd party companies got scared of Pirates, so they all jumped ship. Then the Playstation 2 came out with a DVD player, which the Dreamcast didn't have, another nail in the coffin. Dreamcast has some AWESOME games, and it still died.


The Saturn did survive, it just wasn't number one. It's no big deal. What's important is that we got so many great games from it.

Since NiGHTs is a 2D game, I guess that by "3D" you mean simply games that use some 3D graphics? Here are some that were released in North America-

Virtua Fighter 2
Shining Force
Daytona's
Sega Rally's
Virtual On's
Virtua Cop's
House of the Dead
Duke Nukem 3D
Powerslave
Quake
Shining the Holy Ark
Panzer Dragoon's
Fighting Vipers
Fighters Megamix
Die Hard Arcade
Iron Storm

I'd rather have a Saturn for the Shining Force III games alone. I'd also take the Saturn's 3D games over the N64's. But my tastes aren't popular (I like pre-current gen games for one thing). ;)

Do you think that the Dreamcast's has "good" 3D games? The Saturn has a similar library.

Do you really think the Dreamcast has as good a 3D library as the Saturn did? No fucking way. The Dreamcast has:

Sonic Adventure
Sonic Adventure 2
Crazy Taxi, Silent Scope, House of the Dead, and numerous other arcade ports
Shenmue
Resident Evil

Not to mention the countless 2D games that the Dreamcast had, something Saturn didn't have because of Bernie Stolar:

Marvel Vs. Capcom
Marvel Vs. Capcom 2
Street Fighter III: Double Impact
Street FIghter III: 3rd Strike
Street Fighter Alpha 3
Bangai-O
Guilty Gear X


Those games alone kill the Saturn's 3D-only library.

[Greg2600]

Perhaps failure is too harsh, but SegaCD was not a success. 6 million is less than the totals attributed to the Atari 7800, which is not considered a hit system. It was absurdly expensive for the time, and contained a library of games that were either barely better than their Genesis versions or poorly done FMV games. The system itself was well done, but as would be the first in a line of instances where SEGA's support of a system was pitiful.

As I said, they should have stayed with the CD system, focusing on bringing more games that made use of the medium properly, while still releasing Genesis games. They used the SegaCD as a test system, and essentially screwed the people who spent $300 on it with a woeful game library.

I personally looked into buying one recently, but after reviewing the list of games, I came to the same conclusion as the 32X, not worth it. There just aren't many good games. If I bought it back then, I would have been furious, as many people were. Again, I remember the word on the street when the Saturn came out. We all figured Sega would give up on it after a couple years, and like the SegaCD and 32X, they did. Why? Because when you give up or barely support your own system, that sounds like failure to me.

[Baloo]

You've got to remember that this is an add-on we're talking about here, not a system that can stand on it's own. The Atari 7800 was a system by itself, the Sega CD was an add-on to a system that you already had to pay money for. So when people shell out about $150 for a Genesis back in 1989 and then pay $300 for a Sega CD in 1992-1993, it shows how successful it is considering. Would you pay $450 all at once?

[Melf]

Does it involve me looking through the Japanese library? Because the US library doesn't have shit for memorable games just about.

All 3 Panzer games are U.S. too, as are:

- Shining the Holy Ark
- Shining Force III
- Burning Rangers
- Enemy Zero
- Dark Savior
- Dragon Force
- Sega Rally
- Sega fighters like VF 2, Fighter's MegaMix, Fighting Vipers


... and many others. There's some good multi-platform stuff too, like:

- Powerslave
- Quake
- Duke Nukem 3D

The library isn't huge, but then again, the overall domestic Saturn library isn't all that large. Even so, you can't just say that there aren't any good 3D games on the Saturn when there are. There just aren't as many as on the Playstation.

[Black_Tiger]

The reason the Saturn died was because the US library sucked ass overall and had no killer-app exclusives, and the list Black_Tiger posted was so small, it just wasn't worth the high Saturn price tag. The 1st party Saturn games weren't really worth purchasing the system over...

Do you really think the Dreamcast has as good a 3D library as the Saturn did? No fucking way. The Dreamcast has:

Sonic Adventure
Sonic Adventure 2
Crazy Taxi, Silent Scope, House of the Dead, and numerous other arcade ports
Shenmue
Resident Evil


Your list of good 3D DC games is shorter than my "so small" list of good 3D Saturn games. I'm not going to try to convince you of what's good, since you seem to have already made up your mind that the Saturn is bad no matter what. Regardless of whether or not people had a reason to buy a Saturn over another console, it doesn't change the fact that the Saturn has lots of great games for any region. Your opinion of the Saturn's library is in the minority for "classic gamers".





Not to mention the countless 2D games that the Dreamcast had, something Saturn didn't have because of Bernie Stolar:

Marvel Vs. Capcom
Marvel Vs. Capcom 2
Street Fighter III: Double Impact
Street FIghter III: 3rd Strike
Street Fighter Alpha 3
Bangai-O
Guilty Gear X

I'd still rather have the Saturn's North American 2D lineup (questy/RPG's & all) and it's 2D pad to actually play the games.

During the Saturn days stores like EB carried japanese games and import carts. So even the non-hardcore players were able to play japanese games. Even in my small town we had import games ever since the NES days. So the japanese Saturn library wasn't inaccessible to the rest of the world.

[ReaXan]

The 32x design is mainly designed for flat shaded polygon 3D. The 32x couldn't even do what the SNES could do graphically. It can't even match the Genesis' own VDP (video processor) output! That's quite far from the Saturn capabilities.


So the 32X is not only worse than the SNES graphically, its worse than the Genesis? Smoking some good shit are we
Explain why Doom looks worse on the SNES, would Virtual Fighter look better on the SNES? Really now man



The only thing N64 proved with sticking with cart format was Nintendo's failure to adopt the current and future trend

They didn't need to. Early Playstations had overheating issues and the disks they used were easily scratched.The Cart format was viable up
until the end of the PSONe vs N64 era because it could do every game except long winded RPG's like FF7. Final Fintasy 7 released in 1997 was when for the first time that the CD format showed a clear advantage in a better game experience if you dont count Sewer Shark LOL



NEC proved back in '88 with the release of the PC-Engine CD that CD format was the way of the future for game development.

It took a good 10 years for the CD format to be viable. How many CD based systems failed? lets see AmigaCD32,CDI,3DO,PC-FX
Jaguar CD, Apple Pippen, the list goes on.



the Genesis and by extension the 32x had no software resource to compete with. I think people really fail to understand this.

You take the 32x hardware, modify it close to what the Saturn was, make it a cartridge based system, call it the Genesis 2 or
Mega Drive II, rinse and repeat. It would have been competitive, I dont care what you say friend.


The Saturn had a cart slot. It's a perfectly viable cart slot to boot game from too. No one was going to develop carts for the Saturn when CDs could be made for pennies on the dollar.

well Duh, who would make cartridge games for a CD based system even if it could boot. Simple economics to use something cheaper if the option is already there.
All I am saying is that a Genesis II cartridge based sytem released in 94 would have been successful if they wouldnt have confused
the consumer with the 32x and Saturn. The Genesis II would have been Sega's version of how the SNES carried on the legacy of the NES.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

... (199 to 249 max, compared to the 400 dollars Playstation and the CD format) ...

The Playstation launched in North America in 1995 with an MSRP of $299.99, not $400.

[Baloo]

Your list of good 3D DC games is shorter than my "so small" list of good 3D Saturn games. I'm not going to try to convince you of what's good, since you seem to have already made up your mind that the Saturn is bad no matter what. Regardless of whether or not people had a reason to buy a Saturn over another console, it doesn't change the fact that the Saturn has lots of great games for any region. Your opinion of the Saturn's library is in the minority for "classic gamers".





I'd still rather have the Saturn's North American 2D lineup (questy/RPG's & all) and it's 2D pad to actually play the games.

During the Saturn days stores like EB carried japanese games and import carts. So even the non-hardcore players were able to play japanese games. Even in my small town we had import games ever since the NES days. So the japanese Saturn library wasn't inaccessible to the rest of the world.

RPGs are the most overrated game genre ever.

And if stores DID have imported games, you got charge UP THE ASS for them. $80 for a copy of X-men Vs. Street Fighter, plus $25 or whatever for the Action Replay to play it on? Fuck that, the price of import games was too high. Do you expect the average person who just paid $400 for their Sega Saturn to shell out another $100 to play one import game? I don't think so.

[garagesaleking!!]

this is a great thread, i have really enjoyed reading over it, the only input i have is that sega was an amazing console maker and i miss them very much, they made some mistakes and it ended up killing them.

[geezuzkhrist119]

where would i get a modded model 2 gen with the 32x inside?

[weirdguy]

Well I'm working on one. Might be for sale after :)

[tomaitheous]

So the 32X is not only worse than the SNES graphically, its worse than the Genesis? Smoking some good shit are we
Explain why Doom looks worse on the SNES, would Virtual Fighter look better on the SNES? Really now man

I was talking about basic tile/sprite/tilemap functions, duh. The SNES and Genesis don't have bitmap modes so that don't excel at anything bitmap related (Doom or polygons). Anyway, did you *not* read what I posted? Or do you not understand what sprites/tiles/tilemaps and other effects that SNES or Genesis had in hardware that the 32x lacked? And no, the 32x can *not* simulate two background layers, all the sprite modes, and FX of even the Genesis - at Genesis' speed of 60fps. Let alone the SNES. The 32x does everything in software. Ev-er-y-thing. There's not enough processor resource to do that. Why do you think most 32x games still rely on the Genesis video layer for conventional 2D graphics? Why do you think Space Harrier and After Burner only run at 30fps? I'm glad the 32x came out. I think it's cool that it exists. But I don't have unrealistic expectation of the system (especially that I know its specs).




They didn't need to. Early Playstations had overheating issues and the disks they used were easily scratched.The Cart format was viable up
until the end of the PSONe vs N64 era because it could do every game except long winded RPG's like FF7. Final Fintasy 7 released in 1997 was when for the first time that the CD format showed a clear advantage in a better game experience if you dont count Sewer Shark LOL

Yeah, it was soooo viable that developers were just jumping ship to develop on the n64 :roll: :bullshit:



It took a good 10 years for the CD format to be viable. How many CD based systems failed? lets see AmigaCD32,CDI,3DO,PC-FX
Jaguar CD, Apple Pippen, the list goes on.

10 years from what? PC-Engine? So that's why PC (in Japan and US) adopted the CD drive early on and was soo un-successful? I think not. The CD32,CD-I,3DO,PC-FX failed because of other reasons. It had nothing to do with media format. The CD-I was a piece of shit in a box with shit software. CD32 was 1985 technology. It strong point was supposed to be EU, but it was nothing more than an Amiga. Why would the majority of Amiga owning EU purchase a repackaged Amiga with a CD with nothing to benefit from (not to mention the majority had Amiga systems). The 3D0 was an over priced system. $700 at launch and mediocre-at-best titles throughout its life span? But I'm sure if the 3D0 was cart based, it would have failed as bad as the Jag - haha. PC-FX, a 3D system released without its 3D capabilities (the 3D hudson chip was removed). It had no chance of competing with the 3D fad/power of PSX and Saturn. Not even 2D wise. It's equivalent to a souped up SNES. For 1994, too little too late.





You take the 32x hardware, modify it close to what the Saturn was, make it a cartridge based system, call it the Genesis 2 or
Mega Drive II, rinse and repeat. It would have been competitive, I dont care what you say friend.

Why? If you modify the 32x close to what the Saturn was, it wouldn't be anything close to what a 32 was. You might as well have a whole new system. So you want something close to the saturn, but not a saturn? Why not just go with the Saturn then??? That really makes no sense. Call the Saturn the Genesis 2 or Mega Driver 2, if it makes you feel any better :|




well Duh, who would make cartridge games for a CD based system even if it could boot. Simple economics to use something cheaper if the option is already there.
All I am saying is that a Genesis II cartridge based sytem released in 94 would have been successful if they wouldnt have confused
the consumer with the 32x and Saturn. The Genesis II would have been Sega's version of how the SNES carried on the legacy of the NES.

That doesn't make any sense. First of all, you just proved my whole point about the advantages of the CD format over cart. Second, how is having a cart only equivalent of the Saturn going to give it the "carry over" of the Genesis? Because it's cart based? That's lame. The problem wasn't the 32x addon confusing the customer base. It confused some Sega loyal customers, sure. But that had no effect on the generation of gamers purchasing the PlayStation over the Saturn. There are many factors as to why Sega failed to capture the market and mostly likely uncontrollable societal factors (gaming and normal) as well. The "Megadrive" legacy wasn't "all that" in Japan. No where near as close as the famicom or super famicom, in relation. I think the last thing Sega of Japan wanted was ties to a system that was considered a failure by it's own creators. Or did you expect SOA and SOE to disassociate from SOJ and make there own system and market? I'm sure that would have gone down pretty badly. All those systems you listed as failures? Guess what they have in common? They weren't Japanese designed/developed systems and didn't have the support of Japanese software developers. The vast majority of "hottest" titles were still coming out of Japan in the 32bit era. Without that, your system is doomed to fail.

I'm love to see a good debate on subjects like this, but like many threads (of other forums too) before this one, there's nothing solid in evidence that the neptune was going to improve anything for Sega. Quite the opposite, actually. And as far as your logic/comments, they come off as some sort of illogical fanboy cart fetish. Look, I get it. Some people love carts over CDs. Unless you have multiple accounts on other forums, you're not alone. But that doesn't change the fact that the CD format came around at the right time and was mature for the 32bit era. The CD format was proven years before as Japan's #2 system during the 16bit era. Not only proven in a consumer accepted market, but the benefits out weighed anything cart could provide for a home console. If flash/memory was as advanced back then as it is today, then your argument would hold some merit. But it doesn't.

[ReaXan]

I was talking about basic tile/sprite/tilemap functions, duh. The SNES and Genesis don't have bitmap modes so that don't excel at anything bitmap related (Doom or polygons). Anyway, did you *not* read what I posted? Or do you not understand what sprites/tiles/tilemaps and other effects that SNES or Genesis had in hardware that the 32x lacked? And no, the 32x can *not* simulate two background layers, all the sprite modes, and FX of even the Genesis - at Genesis' speed of 60fps. Let alone the SNES. The 32x does everything in software. Ev-er-y-thing. There's not enough processor resource to do that. Why do you think most 32x games still rely on the Genesis video layer for conventional 2D graphics? Why do you think Space Harrier and After Burner only run at 30fps? I'm glad the 32x came out. I think it's cool that it exists. But I don't have unrealistic expectation of the system (especially that I know its specs).



The 32x was a quick engineering job by Sega of America to try to keep whatever momentum going because of fear from the Sony project.
It would have been a viable format for 1994 if it would have been better optimized so that it would have been easier for developers
to program. The 32X tech would have been strong enough for consumers to upgrade to once its full power was shown

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOWZbydnlZE

My whole point however is that Sega should have released a 32bit cartridge based system with Genesis backward compatability.
Marketing is a big point of video games(look at the tech inferior Wii and how it is doing).My point is that Sega couldnt figure
out which direction to go because they enjoyed being a competitor to Nintendo after lagging behind them so much in the Master
System years and didn't want to be left behind in the dust again.Indecision on a format to chose was really Sega's undoing.




Yeah, it was soooo viable that developers were just jumping ship to develop on the n64 :roll: :bullshit:

Sony was a much larger company than Nintendo and had the money to sway developers. Its simple economics




10 years from what? PC-Engine? So that's why PC (in Japan and US) adopted the CD drive early on and was soo un-successful? I think not. The CD32,CD-I,3DO,PC-FX failed because of other reasons. It had nothing to do with media format. The CD-I was a piece of shit in a box with shit software. CD32 was 1985 technology. It strong point was supposed to be EU, but it was nothing more than an Amiga. Why would the majority of Amiga owning EU purchase a repackaged Amiga with a CD with nothing to benefit from (not to mention the majority had Amiga systems). The 3D0 was an over priced system. $700 at launch and mediocre-at-best titles throughout its life span? But I'm sure if the 3D0 was cart based, it would have failed as bad as the Jag - haha. PC-FX, a 3D system released without its 3D capabilities (the 3D hudson chip was removed). It had no chance of competing with the 3D fad/power of PSX and Saturn. Not even 2D wise. It's equivalent to a souped up SNES. For 1994, too little too late.



Nintendo had been in discussion with Phillips and Sony about a CD system/add-on. They realized how gimmicke it had been with
Sega and they jumped ship. They could have used CD's with the N64, but they chose to stay with catridges because they saw
how these other systems had failed because the slow load times and 1x CD speeds and didn't want to
lose their loyal customer base with a technology they werent confident in. All in All, catridges were really
fine for games except when FF7 was released and showed what the CD format could truly do and that the cartridge format
was aging. That was 1997, 32X was 94.



Why? If you modify the 32x close to what the Saturn was, it wouldn't be anything close to what a 32 was. You might as well have a whole new system. So you want something close to the saturn, but not a saturn? Why not just go with the Saturn then??? That really makes no sense. Call the Saturn the Genesis 2 or Mega Driver 2, if it makes you feel any better :|



Sega could have bought the M2 technology from 3DO/Matsushita if they really wanted to. You act like I am saying that
the 32X technology would have slayed Sony. It wouldnt, but optimized we could have gotten some great Shining Force Games
and consumers would have been fine with the graphics.(The Neo Geo had superior graphics to the SNES but somewhat failed). My point
is that consumers would have bought the Neptune if the Saturn hadn't existed and Sega would still be around today in the
console business. The graphics were good enough for 1994 and catridges were still fine.






That doesn't make any sense. First of all, you just proved my whole point about the advantages of the CD format over cart. Second, how is having a cart only equivalent of the Saturn going to give it the "carry over" of the Genesis? Because it's cart based? That's lame. The problem wasn't the 32x addon confusing the customer base. It confused some Sega loyal customers, sure. But that had no effect on the generation of gamers purchasing the PlayStation over the Saturn. There are many factors as to why Sega failed to capture the market and mostly likely uncontrollable societal factors (gaming and normal) as well. The "Megadrive" legacy wasn't "all that" in Japan. No where near as close as the famicom or super famicom, in relation. I think the last thing Sega of Japan wanted was ties to a system that was considered a failure by it's own creators. Or did you expect SOA and SOE to disassociate from SOJ and make there own system and market? I'm sure that would have gone down pretty badly. All those systems you listed as failures? Guess what they have in common? They weren't Japanese designed/developed systems and didn't have the support of Japanese software developers. The vast majority of "hottest" titles were still coming out of Japan in the 32bit era. Without that, your system is doomed to fail.

I need proof of being able to boot a game of the catridge slot of the Saturn aka the RAM slot before I can concede this point to you.

[emceelokey]

Sega screwed up by trying to hang on to the Genesis for probably a year too long and not putting full support to developing the Saturn. 32X was completely not necessary. THe fact that the sound on those games were just as crappy as Genesis games means they should have moved on.

[Ed Oscuro]

Sega could have bought the M2 technology from 3DO/Matsushita if they really wanted to. You act like I am saying that
the 32X technology would have slayed Sony. It wouldnt, but optimized we could have gotten some great Shining Force Games
and consumers would have been fine with the graphics.(The Neo Geo had superior graphics to the SNES but somewhat failed). My point
is that consumers would have bought the Neptune if the Saturn hadn't existed and Sega would still be around today in the
console business. The graphics were good enough for 1994 and catridges were still fine.
You are saying a lot of things there! First, remove "somewhat" when talking about the Neo Geo being a failure. The home version (which I have) was not an achilles' heel for SNK or anything, but it was more of a prestige project treading water than a project that could have propelled SNK into the future. They absolutely didn't have a platform to allow them to rake in the cash and that led to the marginalization and eventual downfall of the company.

Cartridges didn't make sense after the appearance of CD-ROMs, and the lack of 3D hardware in a new system didn't make sense after the PlayStation (the origins of Sony's polygonal 3D system date back to 1983 or so). Cartridges were just too dang expensive for everybody involved, and didn't have much space anyway (it would've been even worse before the release of the N64, which is the time period we're talking about). The actual Neptune would have been unnecessary dead weight in Sega's product line; they already had their 32x and the verdict was in by then - it wasn't great and couldn't really compete. Better by far to move to the Saturn and newer hardware - and not by some fanciful $100M purchase of the 3DO M2 (oh goodness) which wasn't competitive and hurt Matsushita / Panasonic financially.


Sega screwed up by trying to hang on to the Genesis for probably a year too long and not putting full support to developing the Saturn. 32X was completely not necessary. THe fact that the sound on those games were just as crappy as Genesis games means they should have moved on.
The alternative you suggest would be a Saturn with hardware a year further out of date, which I find a revolting idea. That or they would have lost the farm on buying components at much higher prices. The 32x was about the best they could do before the Saturn, why would you want them to have done it earlier?

Or maybe you meant that they should have moved more developers towards the Saturn early in its lifespan - I think the console got about as good as it could do later on, and it was always going to be hard to work on considering its bizarre architecture.

If everybody had dropped the Genesis and started salivating over the Saturn ahead of schedule...I don't see what purpose that would have accomplished; Konami might not have made Contra, or Bloodlines, and the idea of losing other classics from '95 like Comix Zone in favor of playing around with preparing for Saturn's primitive 3D hardware and more third person snorefests makes me ill.

I think that the console companies should stretch their systems as long as possible to lower barriers to entry for everybody. Extender systems aren't certain to have a market though, and special chips (like in the SNES) are wasteful.

[tomaitheous]

The 32x was a quick engineering job by Sega of America to try to keep whatever momentum going because of fear from the Sony project.
It would have been a viable format for 1994 if it would have been better optimized so that it would have been easier for developers
to program. The 32X tech would have been strong enough for consumers to upgrade to once its full power was shown

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pOWZbydnlZE



The original design of the 32x was to incorporate addon for 3D into a pass through cart instead of adding the cost of extra chips per game, to compete with Nintendo (or more precisely new softs like Starfox). A buy once and save money in the long run type of strategy. The 32x morphed into an attempt to keep its user base that couldn't afford the up coming Saturn. A go between step. This makes perfect sense because the software for the Megadrive was all but gone. SOA was surviving on some stuff coming out of Europe and a few converted EU companies working out of the US. They must have been worried for a while. It's one of the reasons why I don't like that last generation of Sega titles (the first two years are my favorite for the Genesis).

But anyway. That demo is just that. A demo. It has no real world environments to process. Demos are very misleading in that way. There's no AI, no enemy/friendly objects, no collision detection, a fixed path (which exploits all kinds of speed tricks), etc. I have experience with coding for consoles and I know the specs of the 32x fairly well. If you're basing your assessment of the 32x's power on that video, then you've been mislead. It's really hard for people to understand just how underpowered the 32x is relative to the Saturn and PSX, let alone to 2D of arcades and snes at the time. Then add on top of that, a clip of that video.



My whole point however is that Sega should have released a 32bit cartridge based system with Genesis backward compatability.
Marketing is a big point of video games(look at the tech inferior Wii and how it is doing).My point is that Sega couldnt figure
out which direction to go because they enjoyed being a competitor to Nintendo after lagging behind them so much in the Master
System years and didn't want to be left behind in the dust again.Indecision on a format to chose was really Sega's undoing.

Very true. Marketing is the key factor of success. Look how Sega had a tough time for the first year with the Genesis VS the NES. I mean, the NES is from 1983 technology. Even the SMS has much better graphic/colors. History has shown that a systems specs don't necessarily translate to superior sales. Infact, quite a few generations have inferior spec wise systems as leading the sales.

Sega's biggest mistake was a lack of focus. The MegaCD failed in japan because failed to make it its main focus. The SegaCD as a side effect, failed as well. Granted, they had better success in the US - but we loyal NA games tend to buy shit without much thought and a lot of influence by marketing telling us what we need. MegaCD in EU failed too.

Which brings me to my next point. The MegaCD was developed to take on NEC's CD system, not Nintendo, in Japan. In 1991, NEC's main system was the release of the Duo. Solidifying it's place as a CD only console (with backward hucard support).




Sony was a much larger company than Nintendo and had the money to sway developers. Its simple economics

Actually, nothings simple when it comes to the gaming market. Nintendo sold 20 million units here in NA while only 6 in Japan. Nintendo had the popularity to take on Sony. What Nintendo lacked were all those beautiful softs coming out of Japan that Sony had. There were no bully practices in Japan with Sony like Nintendo did here in NA. There are many reasons why the PSX was popular with gamers and developers, but you can't deny that developers had a pretty big advantage on the PSX over the N64. CD's are cheaper. CD's are bigger. CD's can stream audio without even lifting a finger. FMV shorts/opening/closing cinemas were the norm and expected (I'm not talking about FMV games). Much larger space and cheaper to develop for (the developer pays the cost for every single cartridge that is manufactured). That's kinda hard to ignore.






Nintendo had been in discussion with Phillips and Sony about a CD system/add-on. They realized how gimmicke it had been with
Sega and they jumped ship.


Why do you still consider it "gimmicke"? I'll say it again. The PC-Engine Duo was second only to the SNES in Japan. I'm talking about a CD based system. It was extremely popular in Japan. 2006 gamers poll in Famitsu named Far East of Eden 2 12th most popular/best game overall. That's a CD game from the 16bit era. Not to mention tons of classic and when known/popular Falcom titles that appeared on NEC's CD system. NEC proved in Japan that it was not a gimmick. The Play Station, the Saturn, even the MegaCD, not to mention CD-roms for Japanese PC's, proved that CD's were not a gimmick by 1994.

There's only one reason why Nintendo eventually stayed with cart format. Control. The NES had a lockout chip. The SNES had a lockout chip system. The CD format has no suck similar capable lockout chip system. The CD disc itself cannot give realtime response/feedback like the lockout chip systems could. Piracy was a big. Look how fast it was cracked on the PlayStation. That is the reason why Big N went with cart over CD format. I wouldn't be surprised if the delay of the N64 was due to rom prices not falling enough to be cost viable option for developers.




All in All, catridges were really
fine for games except when FF7 was released and showed what the CD format could truly do and that the cartridge format
was aging. That was 1997, 32X was 94.

Putting it into the context of the n64; take a look at CD data tracks of pre-ff7 games on PSX. They're still in the 100megabyte range. That's still much larger than first generation n64 carts (even last generation carts). Now put that into perspective of the 32x with came out early and roms even smaller/more expensive. There's a reason why the 32x was release with a cart format. I stated at the top of this thread what the 32x was originally intended for. And they couldn't very well just as well openly piss off the customer that bought a SegaCD and tell them they must buy a whole new CD unit (32x CD unit). Every SegaCD owner essentially had a Genesis, but not the other way 'round. They had no choice but to release the 32x as a cart format setup. But that's the least of the 32x's problems.







Sega could have bought the M2 technology from 3DO/Matsushita if they really wanted to. You act like I am saying that
the 32X technology would have slayed Sony. It wouldnt, but optimized we could have gotten some great Shining Force Games
and consumers would have been fine with the graphics.

By consumers, you mean you-yourself. But unfortunately the majority of gamers would have disagreed with you. Look, I was there. I remembered what looked good and what didn't. I remember gamers complaining about the saturns "inferior" looking graphics compared to the PSX. I remember thinking same. You really think they were going to except the 32x's vastly inferior graphics to even the Saturn (both 2D and 3D)?



My point is that consumers would have bought the Neptune if the Saturn hadn't existed and Sega would still be around today in the
console business. The graphics were good enough for 1994 and catridges were still fine.

I know that's your point, you stated that in the beginning of the thread. But give no facts as to how this was going to "help" Sega win the day. You give personal feelings that it would, but no concrete facts that hold up to your claims.

Let's say this: Saturn never existed. Neptune was created using the current 32x and the Genesis.

Now, who's it going to complete with? The combo is miles behind the PlayStation and N64, in both 2D, 3D, and music. There's the stigma that it's a budget system from "last generation". Look at it this way, you think a kid is going to want an budget NES system when the Genesis was out with Sonic 1? The SNES was a "budget" system by the time PSX was hot in 1995/6 and the 32x couldn't even do fancy color transparency and effects on the scale of even the SNES. Then we're back to the problem of getting software for this system. It's not coming from Japan that's for sure. And you know what that means, it's doom to failure.






I need proof of being able to boot a game of the catridge slot of the Saturn aka the RAM slot before I can concede this point to you.

I could go on about tech specs and such, but the easiest proof to show are carts that allow you to play import CD's on the Saturn. They boot from the cart first. Anyway, it's not a secret to the dev community that you can boot from the cart slot. I already know of one person who's going that route for his Saturn project.

[emceelokey]

...

If everybody had dropped the Genesis and started salivating over the Saturn ahead of schedule...I don't see what purpose that would have accomplished; Konami might not have made Contra, or Bloodlines, and the idea of losing other classics from '95 like Comix Zone in favor of playing around with preparing for Saturn's primitive 3D hardware and more third person snorefests makes me ill.

I think that the console companies should stretch their systems as long as possible to lower barriers to entry for everybody. Extender systems aren't certain to have a market though, and special chips (like in the SNES) are wasteful.

I think they should have though far ahead enough to probably try to get Konami to make a Contra or Castlevania for the Saturn. The whole company should have shifted the focus towards the next big system, Saturn in this case, instead of fragmenting and working on the Genesis, 32X and even Sega CD at that point. What they should have done was focus on putting out a few top notch titles for the Genesis and accept the fact that the system was going to die out. The 32x was just life support. By the time 32X came out, the SNES claimed the top and even that was winding down. Nintendo already started to plant the "Ultra" 64 brand name and they were building that brand, even though it turned into the "Nintendo"64, and letting people that THIS is out next system. I didn't get that from Sega and I actually had more questions about what the hell the 32X was. I really didn't like the adding new content to old games either because it was still an old game.

The Neptune would have been better but I still would have had questions about it. Especially if I saw the Saturn and saw the memory card slot in the back. I would have been like, do these games play on the Saturn? Basically, too much nonsense and none of it paid off. On the other hand though, I think Sega learned a lot from that and they had probably the best console launch in American history with the Dreamcast. 9/9/99 is when it came out, it's Sega's new system, new exclusive game, Sonic running from a whale. They did that right... the launch at least.

[Ed Oscuro]

I think they should have though far ahead enough to probably try to get Konami to make a Contra or Castlevania for the Saturn.
Well, we saw how that came out. ROFL

And one of those was Japan-developed, and the other was shoveled in straight from the PlayStation. Sometimes more (hardware) is less (when you have the same budget, same developers, etc.)

You could make a good game for any system - but the Genesis was plain more economical to develop for at that time. Konami had enough trouble porting SotN to the Saturn; whether they could have possibly made a smoother game (of course) is immaterial, since it didn't happen. Psychic Killer Taromaru aside, the early 3D systems made developers do bad things. As Taromaru again demonstrates, even when you did things right, things easily went horribly wrong.

On the topic of Panzer Dragoon Saga @ 30K copies:

Panzer Dragoon Azel says "lol, I'm 30 bux." If that.

[fishsandwich]

I think that the console companies should stretch their systems as long as possible to lower barriers to entry for everybody. Extender systems aren't certain to have a market though, and special chips (like in the SNES) are wasteful.

I agree! I'm not knocking the 32x... it was a cool idea that should have stayed an idea. I used to have a complete 32x collection and I am still facinated by what the system could have accomplished if it had been treated to some real "A" development teams.

The Sega CD wasn't that great of an idea either but at least it hosted some damn fine games. The 32x was just a distraction and a money pit. Had Sega really put ALL its muscle behind the Genesis and worked on getting the cost down on the SVP chip (Virtua Racing) then things might have turned out far differently for the Saturn and the Dreamcast.

I have to disagree with the SNES chips being wasteful... I think they were super-cool for the period and alloweded the SNES to compete for a time against the CD systems. I can't think of any SNES game with as much 3-D muscle as Virtua Racing.

[Sonicwolf]

The 32x was just a distraction and a money pit.


The 32x was not a bad idea, like the neptune, they both needed to be executed properly and Sega was just not on the ball at that time.

[fishsandwich]

The 32x was not a bad idea, like the neptune, they both needed to be executed properly and Sega was just not on the ball at that time.

Not on the ball? How about broke? How could a company with limited resources support the Genesis, Sega CD, 32x, Game Gear, Pico, AND Saturn, all at the same time? Something had to give, and it was the Genesis... and the Sega CD and 32x by default as they were add-ons. They gave the still-profitable 16-bit market to Nintendo and alienated consumers at the same time. Brilliant.

[MetalFRO]

All 3 Panzer games are U.S. too, as are:

- Shining the Holy Ark
- Shining Force III
- Burning Rangers
- Enemy Zero
- Dark Savior
- Dragon Force
- Sega Rally
- Sega fighters like VF 2, Fighter's MegaMix, Fighting Vipers


... and many others. There's some good multi-platform stuff too, like:

- Powerslave
- Quake
- Duke Nukem 3D

The library isn't huge, but then again, the overall domestic Saturn library isn't all that large. Even so, you can't just say that there aren't any good 3D games on the Saturn when there are. There just aren't as many as on the Playstation.

Don't forget Daytona USA. Despite the fact that I completely SUCK at racing games, Daytona is fun & great w/ the NiGHTS analog controller.

I think people forget that the "lack" of 3D Saturn games they seem to complain about is just the smaller overall library. The PS-1 had a HUGE library of games, but about 2/3 of it is crap. How many incredibly terrible 3D games came out for the original Playstation? LOADS. I'd venture to say the PS-1 has the highest ratio (other than the N64 or Jaguar) of crap to quality releases. But the sheer size of the PSX library lent itself to a lot of great titles, as opposed to the relatively small US Saturn library, which had some great titles, some mediocre stuff, and a lot of crap. It's a numbers game. The NES suffered from this to a lesser extent - toward the end of its life it started to see a lot of lame games made by publishers just trying to milk the popularity of the format.

I'm am a happy Saturn and Dreamcast owner. I think both systems were high quality, despite their issues. I have several great games for each, and have more domestic titles to acquire for each. The idea that the Saturn game out too soon is probably right, but never in a million years would I believe a cartridge-based "Neptune" would have been a winning proposition for either SoJ or SoA. As was eluded to before, the N64 proved that to be true.

[Koa Zo]

Sorry to drag these two posts up, but just to clear up some of Baloo's misinformation:

... shell out about $150 for a Genesis back in 1989 and then pay $300 for a Sega CD in 1992-1993...
The Genesis was closer to $200 in '89. ($189.99 in 1990)


...just paid $400 for their Sega Saturn to shell out another $100 to play one import game? I don't think so.
The price of the Saturn was nowhere near $400 by the time the games you mentioned (Xmen vs Street Fighter) came out.
Besides, most anyone who bought a Saturn at release for $400 also had disposable income to buy whetever the heck games they wanted.

iirc Saturns were down to $200 by the time Panzer Dragoon Zwei was released. When I purchased imports at my local Electronics Boutiques JPN Daytona CCE was marked down to $10, a region cart was $20, Thunder Force V was discounted to $30. Metal Slug and Castlevania were pricey at $60, and Radiant Silvergun was $60 at release.

You have a real penchant for exageration, kid.

[SegaAges]

I hop on to see posts about prices. I was easily able to snag copies of marvel vs street fighter and x-men vs street fighter for saturn for under $100.

One thing you do have to remember is that the Saturn was built more for 2d games. Compare any Capcom fighter on Saturn and ps1 and you will see what I mean.

[Valet2]

They made two non-functioning prototypes, which were just shells. One is in a video game museum somewhere and sometimes travels around to classic game conventions, and the other is at Sega of Japan's headquarters on display.

Sorry for upping this old thread. But I had to.

You didn't answer my PM, so I ask here. Where did you get the information about the "second neptune" in Sega's HQ? I'm trying to find the origins of that rumor. Even the author of Sega Collected Works encyclopedia stated that in the book, but when I asked he replied me that he's not sure.

So I'm really interested whether it's true. I already made a trip to Las Vegas to see the known Neptune mock-up on Classic Gaming Expo / Videogame Museum. And if there's another I would try my best to see it too. But have to know for sure!

Thanks!

[ReaXan]

The idea that the Saturn game out too soon is probably right, but never in a million years would I believe a cartridge-based "Neptune" would have been a winning proposition for either SoJ or SoA. As was eluded to before, the N64 proved that to be true.

You do have a valid point however it appeared that SoA knew that gamers in North America were still somewhat comfortable with the cartridge format probably didn't even realize the amount of advanced CD based systems "kids especially" that were being released by the Japanese electronic giants in the early 1990's.

I mean I never even heard of a FM Towns Marty until I visited this site as an adult. Japanese gamers probably wouldn't have settled for a cartridge based system in 94 because of their exposure to better technology for years and years. SegaCD doesn't really count as it wasn't a hit in NA for the mainstream consumer.


It also appears that Sega may have done better if they merged with NEC using Hitachi technology in the mid nineties which was underpowered.

[WCP]

The 32X was a fucking joke

You can quote me on that.


I feel I'm entitled to talk as much smack as I want about the 32X, because I was one of the suckers that bought one on launch day. I paid $169.99 I think for the thing, and also bought Star Wars Arcade and Virtua Racing Deluxe separately. There may have been some coupons in the launch box that gave me a slight discount on the two games, but that's besides the point...


The thing was a steaming pile of trash. Virtua Racing Deluxe is awesome, and Star Wars was decent, but everything else pretty much blows. The system just didn't have enough power. If it was a legit taste of 32-bit, it could have been cool, but it just didn't live up to any of the promises. I remember them promising all these thousands of colors on the screen and everything, but honestly, most 32X games look similar to Genesis games. They don't exactly blow me away with color. I'm sure there is a game here or there that might be colorful, but on average, I honestly don't think there is this huge dramatic jump beyond the Genesis.

The thing that really pissed me off was Knuckles Chaotix. People really tried to convince themselves that game was good. I got the game, and even I tried to force myself to like it, but I just couldn't take it anymore. I knew the game was crap, but some people were just so invested in Sega and Sonic, that the game HAD to be the one 32X game that you just "gotta" play.

If it wasn't for Virtua Racing Deluxe, (and to a lesser extent Star Wars), I'd have no need to even own a 32X.

[Greg2600]

The 32X wasn't properly supported. It seemed that Sega of America were interested in extending the Genesis shelf life before moving to Saturn, while Japan wanted to shelve the Genesis and go with Saturn. It was a pissing match, and obviously nobody won. I think the hope was that developers would create games on 32X, partially to get practice on the SH-2 microprocessors that powered it and Saturn. That didn't happen. Again, Japan was completely unsupportive of the 32X, and killed SOA/SOE by stopping Genesis support and releasing the Saturn early.

[TheChristoph]

Afterburner and Space Harrier are pretty good reasons to have a 32X. Even when it was new though, it's pretty laughable that your killer apps were ports of ten-year-old arcade games.

I think the 32X was a pretty cool idea, but maybe it should have been build into the Sega CD. I like the idea of console upgrades, but they fundamentally have the chicken and the egg dilemma. Nobody wants to upgrade until there are great games for it, but there are going to be few games outside of the first party until units are sold.

[Leo_A]

My only regret with my 32X that I acquired long after its commercial demise, is that Outrun appeared prior to its existence.

The Genesis port is nice and all, but I can't help but imagine what the 32X version could've been after enjoying Afterburner II and appreciating what was accomplished with Space Harrier (Which isn't my cup of tea, but a showcase just the same for the sprite scaling capabilities of the 32X).

A few more Sega Super Scaler arcade ports, and this would be a must have for classic gamers of today.

[celerystalker]

My only regret with my 32X that I acquired long after its commercial demise, is that Outrun appeared prior to its existence.

The Genesis port is nice and all, but I can't help but imagine what the 32X version could've been after enjoying Afterburner II and appreciating what was accomplished with Space Harrier (Which isn't my cup of tea, but a showcase just the same for the sprite scaling capabilities of the 32X).

A few more Sega Super Scaler arcade ports, and this would be a must have for classic gamers of today.

I would have been all about more Super Scaler ports. Galaxy Force II, Power Drift Racing, maybe do Super Thunderblade... that would have been awesome. Space Harrier is my favorite 32X experience by a mile.

As it was, I also agree that the thing was laughable from a business point of view. How many development teams could try to support this, the Genesis, Game Gear, Sega CD, Pico, Saturn, and arcade all at the same time? Had it been ready about 2years earlier and like Leo said, tackled some Super Scaler and other sprite-based arcade games, it may have been a real game changer instead of a joke.

[WCP]

The other thing that must be said is that the 32X was released nearly 1 full year after the Atari Jaguar, and costs "almost" as much as a Jaguar, yet it requires you own additional hardware (A Sega Genesis). The Jaguar seems like a much better financial gamble for the money, and it had an amazing port of Doom.

(Yeah, I know the 32X Doom had music, but it was in a tiny window. The Jag version of Doom was full screen, and had nice ambient sounds.)



I just think the 32X at $169.99 (with no actual games, just some coupons) was a bad price to technology ratio. Either the thing should have been much cheaper, or it should have been more powerful and maybe they could have took the price to $199.99 . They chose neither option and ended up in a no man's land of too expensive and not powerful enough to really notice much difference.

I need to go take a look at usenet posts back in November and December 1994 and early 1995. Would be very interesting to see what people on the ground were saying at the time.

I bought one at launch, and at first I had hope for the machine. I didn't think it was a complete piece of ish until a few months later. Initially, Virtua Racing Deluxe and Star Wars Arcade was enough to satisfy my launch cravings. It was only later after trying more and more software that I began to realize that the 32X just didn't have what it took to do anything special.

[Greg2600]

The plan on the Neptune was a Nov. 1995 launch, 1 year after the 32X, at $200. Many now may wonder, what the fuck were SEGA thinking? Well, the Saturn was originally slated for that time period as well, although DOUBLE the price. That's a key though. You may not think so now, but 20 years ago $200 was a massive gap. Outdated or not, the 32X and later proposed Neptune was designed to keep players in the SEGA corner. At the end of the day, whether they bought a Neptune or Saturn, SOA didn't care, because it was still their sale. They knew that the Saturn would take some time to kick into high gear, and the 32X platform was meant to bridge the gap. They lacked the cartridge chip hardware SNES had, and they needed to extend the life of the Genesis. The 32X began as an add-on, at SOA's insistence, so they didn't really piss off the install base. Why Neptune? Again, you give families' who could never afford a Saturn a decent alternative. Although $200 was too high. The 32X add-on was never intended to be sold in large quantities after that first year or so. That's where the Neptune came in. 32x had a decent handful of games, but it stopped there. It just didn't have time or resources to build its library. SEGA didn't invest in additional product, and that was Nakayama's bad call. He pulled all cartridge support, which included the Genesis, Game Gear, 32X, and the Neptune project.

[ReaXan]

As someone who started the thread I have to say my views on the 32X have changed over the years. I think I was wrong on most of the points I made and I think I was disappointed overall that this system had such a lackluster amount of games and wish there had been a different strategy taken by Sega with this type of add-on technology for people on a budget.

http://www.sega-16.com/2006/03/segas-svp-chip-the-road-not-taken/

I think what Sega did with Virtua Racing on the Genesis was the better way to go and maybe a premium priced Genesis game line would have accomplished what the 32x was meant to do. Still weaker than a 32x most likely but could have been the road Sega should have taken.

Sega planned to sell the SVP in a separate cartridge that would work in the same fashion as Galoob’s Game Genie. This way, gamers would only have to purchase the technology once. However, Sega canned the project for unknown reasons and instead chose to focus its efforts on more powerful hardware — namely the 32X. Thus the SVP chip died a quick death, leaving the technology’s untapped potential to fade with time.


However I still think the system was brilliantly marketed to kids after all these year. The box itself just makes a 12 year old boy as myself think he is getting a massive upgrade to his Genesis.

http://www.videogameobsession.com/videogame/Sega32X/System-32x_Boxed-vgo.jpg

I don't think ive ever seen a console box that ever just jumped out to me as a kid like the 32x did and never will.

[Steve W]

I don't play my 32X very much, mainly because it got glitchy when I used it - freezing games and such. I will fire up a 32X emulator however, just to play Shadow Squadron/Stellar Assault. Other than the terrible buzzing background noise, it's a pretty good game that keeps me going back. I still hope to get to level 6 someday, but it's too dang easy to get killed on level 5 when you're facing an armada with a single ship.

I've never taken a liking to any other 32X game to any degree... and I didn't get one at launch, I ran out and bought mine when I heard that Toys R' Us were clearing them out at $19.99. At least I didn't have to pay much for disappointment.

[Tanooki]

I know there wasn't a lot for the 32X but what is there isn't bad and some quite good. I just never could justify the price for the thing, still can't now, but I have considered it and still do. I imagine if I found a stupid cheap deal on the thing with the model1 latch on parts to it I'd go for it since I've had a Genesis again since the start of last November. I would love nothing more than to tear into some of those 1st party unique titles, Star Wars, Star Trek, the sorta panned (not that I'd care) DOOM port, and some others. 32x wasn't bad, it just wasn't handled well is all. Had Sega stuck with it longer, brought the point of entry cost down, and not crushed it when the Saturn made it to market I think it would feel more justified in existence like the SCD.

[celerystalker]

I mocked the 32X as a teenager openly, but I do have an American and a Japanese version now. I mainly use them for Star Wars and the excellent Space Harrier port. I love how it handles scaling sprites, and the stuff that uses that has aged really well.

[bb_hood]

I know there wasn't a lot for the 32X but what is there isn't bad and some quite good.

I havent played it alot but I would very much agree with the above.
I dont know what the systems sell for now, but for the longest time you could find 32X systems as "system only" for like 5$. I would see them all the time. Mine I got 'system only' for 20$ shipped a few years back. Granted you need all the hookups and games but in some instances you can do without them because:
1. the sega everdrive plays 32X roms.
2. if you have a sega trio power adapter you dont need the power adapter. Ive got a sega trio and its totally worth owning.
3. if you have an RGB setup you will need another cable anyway, i think it might use the genesis one. Also the cable that connects the genesis to the 32X is not hard to find, china has been reproducing them and they are like 10$ if you need it.

So yeah, when I got my 32X it only cost me 20$ and I was playing it.



I mocked the 32X as a teenager openly, but I do have an American and a Japanese version now. I mainly use them for Star Wars and the excellent Space Harrier port. I love how it handles scaling sprites, and the stuff that uses that has aged really well.

Seriously though it deserved to be mocked back them. Tacking all that crap onto the genesis was stupid. Then they force you to use 3 ac adapters if you want sega cd also, and of course you have to connect the tv a power outlet. Hooking up tons of crap at once sucks. It was just horrible and everyone knew it.
Nowadays however, its just more retro games in the catalog. Its really not much effort if you have the sega trio.