Virtua Hamster Dumped! Footage Inside

[Devhackr]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bd-SAVQWD3Q

So Virtua Hamster for 32x was dumped. I dunno why, but this game seems to be kind of a "holy grail" for 32x. No idea why, I would have prefered to see some of the unreleased STI stuff. None, the less, enjoy, it's actually hard to look away!

[Tempest]

I owned a prototype of it for awhile. It was a cute tech demo, but since none of the gameplay goals had been implemented yet it was sort of pointless. It had promise though.

Tempest

[Enigmus]

Can someone PM me a link? I'm somehow suspended until August 24. But I don't mind that. Gives me more focus on this place. :D

[PentiumMMX]

Too bad this didn't get further along in development, because it looked like it would have been fun.

[mrmark0673]

Setting personal differences aside, nice work getting this out there. It's nice to see high profile protos get released, tech demo or otherwise.

[Devhackr]

Setting personal differences aside, nice work getting this out there. It's nice to see high profile protos get released, tech demo or otherwise.

Not sure if you're hinting or not, but I'm not phugolz. We're close, but different people. I'm just relaying this to the many, many places he's gotten himself banned from.

[mrmark0673]

Not sure if you're hinting or not, but I'm not phugolz. We're close, but different people. I'm just relaying this to the many, many places he's gotten himself banned from.

I saw Pachuka post this on a few boards and assumed he had just made a new user name for himself and rejoined the site, my mistake.

Regardless, still a nice job from the x-cult community to get this out there.

[Guy Bramsworth]

X-Cult didn't dump it. The guys at http://www.segasaturno.com/portal/ are the ones who bought it, Phugolz is the one who pointed them in the right direction in order to make the purchase. The rom's being released on their site in a couple of days, as you can see with that countdown on their front page 8-)

[Tempest]

I can't believe it took this long to get dumped. Had I known, I would have dumped it when I had the prototype five years ago. I thought it had already been dumped when I sold it.

Tempest

[Bojay1997]

I can't believe it took this long to get dumped. Had I known, I would have dumped it when I had the prototype five years ago. I thought it had already been dumped when I sold it.

Tempest

Actually, it was dumped at least five years ago. It just didn't get a wide public release like it's getting now.

[DreamTR]

That was my copy that was dumped. I have more unreleased Genesis and 32X stuff coming as well.

[Devhackr]

what he said. X-Cult didn't/doesn't want credit, they just want to see more unreleased stuff get archived.

[Guy Bramsworth]

That was my copy that was dumped. I have more unreleased Genesis and 32X stuff coming as well.

So it was your copy. I was starting to think it could have been that eBay auction..

Any chance I get I'm going to try to make donations for dumps of what you've got. ATM I've only donated towards the Toejam and Earl 2 prototype :)

[mrmark0673]

That was my copy that was dumped. I have more unreleased Genesis and 32X stuff coming as well.

What was the price for the dump?

[Ryo Suzuki]

Hello people,

I and my friends of SEGA Saturno are about to make the public release.

I wonder if there are more protos of Virtua Hamster in circulation in more advanced state, I think not... but maybe.

In the game programmer's website we can see some screenshots showing different stuff that suggest the development reached more...

http://www.q-design.com/examples/Games/Hamster.html

By the way, thanks to DreamTR for provide this.

[Tempest]

Hello people,

I and my friends of SEGA Saturno are about to make the public release.

I wonder if there are more protos of Virtua Hamster in circulation in more advanced state, I think not... but maybe.

In the game programmer's website we can see some screenshots showing different stuff that suggest the development reached more...

http://www.q-design.com/examples/Games/Hamster.html

By the way, thanks to DreamTR for provide this.

I don't remember my proto very well, but I remember that you could roam the maze and see some of the other characters pass you now and then, but there was no 'goal' implemented yet. Is that how the one that was dumped is?

Tempest

[Ed Oscuro]

S.T.U.N. Hamster?!

Also, good work DreamTR, thank you!

[Guy Bramsworth]

I don't remember my proto very well, but I remember that you could roam the maze and see some of the other characters pass you now and then, but there was no 'goal' implemented yet. Is that how the one that was dumped is?

Tempest

Sounds exactly like what the videos show so far. Keep going aimlessly through a straight maze and occasionally pass by still 3d models of other hamsters.

[Tupin]

Awesome, I've wanted to try this for a while.

Where can I download it?

[tubeway]

Hey now. You don't get to get paid for the game, AND get credit for it being dumped.

Just kidding, Jason. ;)

[Enigmus]

That was my copy that was dumped. I have more unreleased Genesis and 32X stuff coming as well.

Wait, I saw that list at Hidden Palace. Someone needs to buy Socks the Cat. It's actually on the list, along with DK64 and Zelda 1 protos! Man, that list makes me feel like a kid in a glass case in the game section at a Wal Mart! LOL

And right now, the Saturno timer is down to 15 hours. Man, I hate patience.

[DreamTR]

Wait, I saw that list at Hidden Palace. Someone needs to buy Socks the Cat. It's actually on the list, along with DK64 and Zelda 1 protos! Man, that list makes me feel like a kid in a glass case in the game section at a Wal Mart! LOL

And right now, the Saturno timer is down to 15 hours. Man, I hate patience.


Enigmus, I think everyone is confused...THat list was just to see if people wanted anything dumped more than anything, I wasn't really apt to selling anything unless the prices were right. Socks the Cat is not under any circumstances for sale or dumping. The Mega Man games someone asked about a buy out price, so those prices were for the carts. THe other prices were for dumps, but it's not a "selling out" list by any means, just to see if anyone wanted anything while I can still find my stuff!

[Tempest]

Socks the Cat is not under any circumstances for sale or dumping.
Any particular reason? Just curious. I heard the game itself is only so-so anyway.

Tempest

[Wesker]

Here it is.

http://www.segasaturno.com/portal/files/posted_images/user_2_virtua_hamster_32x.jpg

http://www.segasaturno.com/portal/index.php?topic_id=3909

http://www.segasaturno.com/portal/download.php?id=204 (direct download)

Enjoy.

http://www.segasaturno.com/portal/files/posted_images/user_2_hamster_sega.jpg

Courtesy of your friends at SegaSaturno. :D

[Devhackr]

I think it's a respect thing

[DreamTR]

Any particular reason? Just curious. I heard the game itself is only so-so anyway.

Tempest

I like the game, I think it's the best unreleased SNES game thus far. Very fun to say the least.

[Guy Bramsworth]

I like the game, I think it's the best unreleased SNES game thus far. Very fun to say the least.

Sorry for going off topic here, but are you saying you'll never EVER offer Socks for dumping, even years from now? I'm hoping at least someday it will be preserved, even if it can't be anytime in the immediate future.

[tubeway]

Sorry for going off topic here, but are you saying you'll never EVER offer Socks for dumping, even years from now? I'm hoping at least someday it will be preserved, even if it can't be anytime in the immediate future.

Oh, it's probably preserved as a ROM in a secret Gmail account or CD-ROM backup somewhere. But you'll never get to play it. ;) So, no need to lose sleeping worrying about its existence stopping.

Getting to play it is a different matter, though. :)

[DreamTR]

Sorry for going off topic here, but are you saying you'll never EVER offer Socks for dumping, even years from now? I'm hoping at least someday it will be preserved, even if it can't be anytime in the immediate future.

You don't need to offer something for dumping in order to preserve it. I think a lot of people forget that. It is already well preserved.

[tubeway]

You don't need to offer something for dumping in order to preserve it. I think a lot of people forget that. It is already well preserved.

People don't forget.

Their expressed concern is really just the first step in an attempt at manipulating the owner into dumping the game publically. Once they have confirmation it's been backed up in some easily distributable digital format, they'll proceed with continuous harassment of the owner until there's a public release.

But with all your experience with protos, I'm sure you already know that. :)

At least, it's what I dealt with when I had dozens of unreleased 3DO titles, years ago. When people on news groups and forums found out that I owned them, they used every possible tactic to try to insult, manipulate, threaten or otherwise con me into giving them access to copies. Thankfully I never did, otherwise those games never would have been worth enough to pay for car repairs, rent while unemployed, or other necessities I ended up needing in dire times.

[ubersaurus]

You don't need to offer something for dumping in order to preserve it. I think a lot of people forget that. It is already well preserved.

What did you do, encase it in carbonite?

[Wesker]

Just in case you downloaded this already, re-download again and replace it, as it mistakingly had an underdumped ROM. The reuploaded release now features the correct sized ROM (with some additional graphic interface details).

[DreamTR]

Tubeway, you're definitely right, people will ALWAYS have something to say about it, but the point it, if you obtained it, it's your RIGHT and your MONEY to what YOU want with it. The problem is, people automatically think it belongs to the "community" once someone else pays for the game...very bizarre thinking, yet said people won't give away cars/money for free, so I don't see what is so different here.

[Tempest]

Personally I don't care if a prototype gets released (although it is nice) as long as it's backed up somewhere and there are screenshots and a description posted.

Tempest

[Guy Bramsworth]

People don't forget.

Their expressed concern is really just the first step in an attempt at manipulating the owner into dumping the game publically. Once they have confirmation it's been backed up in some easily distributable digital format, they'll proceed with continuous harassment of the owner until there's a public release.

But with all your experience with protos, I'm sure you already know that. :)

At least, it's what I dealt with when I had dozens of unreleased 3DO titles, years ago. When people on news groups and forums found out that I owned them, they used every possible tactic to try to insult, manipulate, threaten or otherwise con me into giving them access to copies. Thankfully I never did, otherwise those games never would have been worth enough to pay for car repairs, rent while unemployed, or other necessities I ended up needing in dire times.

I hope that wasn't directed at me...I'm certainly not trying to manipulate or anything. I really was just concerned about its preservation. But DreamTR did mention something I still don't fully understand, that there's more ways than just dumping to preserve something. I personally never knew that myself :P

I fully agree with you 100% DreamTR. I just hope no one is getting the idea that my posting "concern" somehow translates to me being one of these people that manipulate as you guys seem like you're trying to make me out to be just because I asked a question :?:?

But yes, I know and agree it is your item and you're free to do with it what you want since you paid for it. But in any community people are going to naturally ask if it is preserved properly just so there's no worry that some history may be lost forever. Please people, make judgements of people if they're CLEARLY trying to be sneaky and somehow steal the item away from you. Simply asking if it's preserved though proves no grounds that suddenly you're in that group of "it's the communities item, it's our right to have that thing you hoarder!" or something^^;

I may be getting carried away but I happen to be one of the people that fully agree with DreamTR and his wanting proper compensation for anything he owns if it's to be dumped, or if he just wants to hold on to it as it's his. I hate seeing people like that omochao guy going on about mario kart being the communities legal right to have, or that hellfire guy who seemed real naive about any of this. That's all :P

To be fair though anyone with protos I guess can easily get paranoid if someone inquires into them, if they've actually had a fair amount of experiences that you guys are talking about...

[Devhackr]

I understand and sympathize with the collector half. My cousin and I have this conversation at least once a week in person. It's old. Bottom line, it would be nice if stuff was released, but the reality is they cost money. If you spend $300 for an unreleased game and then release it, that's just the same as throwing $300 on people for what? Popularity?

[TheRedEye]

If you spend $300 for an unreleased game and then release it, that's just the same as throwing $300 on people for what? Popularity?

Popularity doesn't really play a factor when you don't take credit for these things, some of us just feel that preserving history is worth the steep price of admission.

[DreamTR]

Yes, but you can also preserve history by taking donations, which is the problem that a lot of people still have. (Not you TRE, obviously!) People "expect" this stuff to be free because it's how people originally found/located/were given items on the web in terms of ROMs.

The bottom line is that it is a choice to give away something that costs pretty decent money and I know if someone asked me for $300, I would not just give it away. This will always be black and white to me, and I know a lot of people HATE collectors because we perceive things as having cash "value" and we don't JUST want to play said items, but I'll say this, if any of the SAME person/people found a gold NWC at a garage sale for $2, you KNOW said person is going to sell it and make a ton of money in profit because you can play a repro.

People always want something they can't play or is immediately available to them...but to me there is no argument and really should not be with anyone else. I see no difference with me paying $500 for a released game and someone asking me to "give it away" for nothing. I'm always more than willing to take donations which gets on people's nerves but it's better than the games sitting and rotting or me selling them for stupid money to someone else, right?

The Turbo Grafx effect ($5000 for unreleased games and $750-2000 for released) is strictly because the so-called "community" of preservation for that system is pretty outlandish, which is why a lot of games never see the light of day that could have...

[slapdash]

"The Turbo Grafx effect"? I don't think I've heard that one before... I assume, by the prices you give, there were specific games leading up to this term. Care to enlighten someone not in the know?

[Devhackr]

I think I've seen two protos for that system entirely.

[Guy Bramsworth]

I think it's time for the morals behind selling protos debate to end. How the heck did this happen? I just asked one thing and Tubeway turned it into the direction of a typical topic of someone asking for free roms. :/

[tubeway]

lulz. drama.

[DreamTR]

slapdash: Turbo Grafx just has really rare protos, and the unreleased ones (any) are in such high demand that they command $4000-12000 each, and usually the person does not want them dumped either...

[Baloo]

It's great to see Virtua Hamster dumped after all this time, now I hope to see X-men dumped as well, I know there are at least 3 copies of the prototype floating around there somewhere. Thanks for the dump SegaSaturno, and thanks for providing the prototype DreamTR! :)

[Guy Bramsworth]

X-men, heh. I think I saw someone say that that game was just about as much of a game as Virtua Hamster was. Probably nothing more than a tech demo. Didn't it get moved to Saturn as a Hulk game? Probably can play that and get an idea for how interesting it would even be(probably not much).

[DreamTR]

Baloo: X-Men and a nice surprise are next.

[slapdash]

@DreamTR: okay, got it; I guess part of the reason I was unfamiliar with the term is DUE to the scarcity of TG protos.

@All: As to the whole debate about protos, here's my take... I have a right to ask if a proto will be dumped; the proto-owner has a right to say no. Simple as that. Hopefully both sides are cordial with the conversation.

[Guy Bramsworth]

Baloo: X-Men and a nice surprise are next.

I like the sounds of that :)

[Sniderman]

@All: As to the whole debate about protos, here's my take... I have a right to ask if a proto will be dumped; the proto-owner has a right to say no. Simple as that. Hopefully both sides are cordial with the conversation.

True. But 9 times out of 10, "Will you dump the proto? No." is followed shortly by "OMG, YOUZE A ROMZ HOARDERSZ!!! OH YEAH, ITZ MINE TO DO WHAT I WANT!!!"

Hence the clenched asschecks whenever anyone even starts down that path of requesting. As long as it remains cordial, all is well. But it rarely does.

[Ryaan1234]

True. But 9 times out of 10, "Will you dump the proto? No." is followed shortly by "OMG, YOUZE A ROMZ HOARDERSZ!!! OH YEAH, ITZ MINE TO DO WHAT I WANT!!!"

Hence the clenched asschecks whenever anyone even starts down that path of requesting. As long as it remains cordial, all is well. But it rarely does.

Is it just me or does almost every thread in the prototype forum lead to this?

[DreamTR]

It always will lead to this for some reason. I honestly don't see what the debate is. Communism or Capitalism is the root of this. GIVE IT TO SHARE. NO IT IS MINE TO DO WHAT I WANT.

[Guy Bramsworth]

True. But 9 times out of 10, "Will you dump the proto? No." is followed shortly by "OMG, YOUZE A ROMZ HOARDERSZ!!! OH YEAH, ITZ MINE TO DO WHAT I WANT!!!"

Hence the clenched asschecks whenever anyone even starts down that path of requesting. As long as it remains cordial, all is well. But it rarely does.

Exactly. It's sad really. If people would just learn not to assume so much of others this topic wouldn't have spun out of control like this...

And for the record not a single person called another a hoarder in here as far as I see.

In any case I can't wait for what this surprise is. I'm assuming segasaturno purchased more stuff :D

[Leo_A]

It's too bad people are defending these actions and stifling views of others that are afraid to speak out when this subject comes up.

Preservation isn't it being hidden where only you can access it or holding something hostage.

Charles Lindbergh's The Spirit of St. Louis is preserved because it's not only protected at the National Air and Space Museum, but people are free to examine it in order to ensure its being protected, give feedback if its not, and the organization has multitudes of people to ensure that a system of checks and balances are in place to ensure it's protected for future generations,

You're doing nothing legitimately to preserve artifacts. Preservation includes maintaining and restoring access to such items, documenting it and recording it to allow such things as study of it, and prevention of damage and decay.

What you're doing is hoarding pieces of history because you're a collector, and apparently the only way your hostages can escape is through cash "donations". You are not a preservationist and that's why people are speaking out because these items aren't being protected.

Thankfully, most of what you hold wasn't released for a reason, and its loss to videogaming history is small.

Sorry, but you're no preservationist. You're just an elitist that wants to make a few bucks to fuel your hobby by illegally taking money to release code that isn't yours, as if you owned it. Please discontinue using the word preservation, because it isn't what you're doing.

[Sniderman]

http://i30.tinypic.com/2pn36.jpg

[Devhackr]

http://i30.tinypic.com/2pn36.jpg

Oh dear sweet jesus this image needs to be posted every time this arguement or debate starts!

[DreamTR]

It's too bad people are defending these actions and stifling views of others that are afraid to speak out when this subject comes up.

Preservation isn't it being hidden where only you can access it or holding something hostage.

Charles Lindbergh's The Spirit of St. Louis is preserved because its not only protected at the National Air and Space Museum, but people are free to examine it in order to ensure its being protected, give feedback if its not, and the organization has multitudes of people to ensure that a system of checks and balances are in place to ensure its protected for future generations,

Your doing nothing legitimately to preserve artifacts. Preservation includes maintaining and restoring access to such items, documentating it and recording it to allow such things as study of it and prevention of damage and decay.

What your doing is hoarding pieces of history because your a collector, and apparantly the only way your hostages can escape is through cash donations. You are not a preservationist, and people are speaking out because these items aren't being protected.

Thankfully, most of what you hold wasn't released for a reason, and its loss to videogaming history is small.

Sorry, but your no preservationist. Your just an elitist that wants to make a few bucks to fuel your hobby by illegally taking money to release code that isn't yours. Please discontinue using the word preservation, because it isn't what your doing.

Who said I was a preservationist anyway? If I dump the items, it's preserved. Simple as that. I'm sorry I don't have enough time to take out of my life to try and record and compare/contrast stuff to appease YOU.

Elitist that wants to make a few bucks? Wow. Ok buddy, you can give me ALL the money I spent over the years on my protos and you can release them for FREE! Hope you have that money lying around!

The sad part here is you are putting words in my mouth. If I dumped the game and something happens to it, it's backed up, simple as that. If you don't have protos given away for free you should NOT be posting. I NEVER said I was preserving anything. I'm more of a librarian than anything, but you can continue to be a hypocrite because unless you are prepared to pay me the amount of money I paid for all of my games, you need to stop making yourself look even more ignorant than you already are.

I still can't believe all the hypocrisy. Hoarder this, collector that, blah blah. GIVE ME THE MONEY I PAID. I am not giving away stuff for free. If you don't have the money and are not prepared to do this yourself, STAY OUT OF THREADS LIKE THIS.

[Leo_A]

By definition, your items aren't preserved. And you stated in this thread that it was preserved because you dumped it, and generally people that do such things are referred to as preservationist if you think you're helping to preserve something.

So even though you didn't use that word, you did use the word preserved in regards to backing up a prototype. So I don't think it was an unfair leap to make.

If you dump your items, all it means is you have 1 or more backup copies of such item. That does not qualify as preservation.

I don't want your items, nor do I care if most or perhaps even all of it ever sees the light of day. My heart won't be broken if most of it is lost forever in fact, I usually don't even waste my time downloading prototypes that are publicly available. So pretend that it's jealously, if it helps you.

What does annoy me is actions by yourself and others to sell such items like you own the game code and are somehow doing the community a favor by calling it preserved when you've dumped something to your hard drive. That is not preservation. Nor is the game code yours to sell to make money off of.

I'm fine when someone owns a prototype and doesn't want to release it publically, I have even defended it in person at this forum in the past. But when someone takes donations to release something, I view that as illegally benefiting from what basically works out to selling the game code, which isn't your property. Only the physical prototype is yours to do with as you please.

Please don't act like you're doing the community any favors by being a collector that just happens to dump his own roms to his hard drive. That doesn't do a thing for the community as far as preserving these items, it's just as lost as if it had never surfaced among any members here. Also, you act like your doing the community a favor by taking cash in order to release game code, which is extremely odd and wrong.

You're just a collector. Items that are preserved must meet those criteria mentioned above, like thankfully most collectors do for classic era consoles like the Atari 2600 from a time when many quality games failed to see releases due to the crash and other factors, which thankfully is an extreme rarity over the past 20 years and the era you seem to focus on. And collectors that want to do the community a favor don't charge for code they decide to release to preserve the item, like many generous individuals in the Atari community have done.

Edit - And just to clarify before this gets out of hand, I just want to have a good natured debate that is constructive, not to start a war with a opinion that the majority in this thread don't hold. And I'm sorry I called you an elitist, that wasn't appropriate.

I also wouldn't object to someone taking donations to release a rom if it was done for the express purpose of gaining funds to buy a prototype to save it and to release it's contents to the public in order to see that its preserved, rather than after the fact.

But that's just me, I shouldn't be applying my morals to others here, even though I'll stand by my opinion that accepting money to release a game is wrong, unless it's for the purpose of financing a purchase where the prototype is safely in the hands of a collector who also then releases the binary to preserve its contents.

Feel free mods to delete both of my post if that doesn't happen and this turns into something like I almost started by calling DreamTR an elitist, I'd rather not see it closed merely because of something my post started.

[DreamTR]

Just because I preserved the data definitely does not mean I am a preservationalist. You made up that "quote" by saying "usually", but it's not true.

Also, you are USED to people giving away stuff. You said it yourself. You don't do it (buy the games up and release them)

I spent time and money and lots of effort to acquire said games. People want to SEE and PLAY these games. My prices are going to be stupid high if they want to OWN the games, but the thing is it's the data on the carts that people want. Once it's dumped, they forget really quickly where it came from. At much more of a fraction of the cost they get the dump.

Morality/legality binding stuff, whatever. I've never even burned a freaking CD or had any bootlegs or modded backup systems or music or DVD downloading and all that, and anyone who complains about this but has done any of those other things is much more of a hypocrite.


To a lot of people they are happy to see the game and play it. To you I'm making money? What I want to know is, who cares? Why does it matter to people when I make money, but people make profits all the time on all sorts of other things?

I don't have time to make repros of these games which you carefully omitted because most of the "Atari" community stuff for dumped ROMS make REPROS of said games quite a bit, including games they do not have "rights" to. COnveniently that is not part of your recourse back to me.

Yes, I am a collector. I never said I was a preservationist, but dumping a game onto my hard drive prevents issues with a possible damaged game. Not sure what you are arguing about here, but preservationalists spend a lot of money releasing stuff so YOU can be happy but YOU don't do it yourself.

This is really what does not make sense though...

I pay $1000 for a game, I can sell it for a price I want, say $2500, that to you is ok. Said person is probably going to make repros.....and game will be available and dumped on the web.....

No one has the $2500...I say it's $500 and someone else borrows the cart and dumps it.

You do realize I'm not dumping or releasing these myself, right? Someone else is. They pay a fraction of the cost and get what they want, the ROM. They take donations, game is released, simple as that. No one lost $2500 to acquire it from me, but you are saying that is ok to do? Make people spend $2500? You realize I am not going to give it away for what I paid for it for free. I'm not here to hand someone $1000 when I know I can probably get $2000 for it.

Like I said, morality aside here, I've had 30 or so of my unreleased games dumped....and I'm pretty sure people have been happy to play them for FREE. If you spent money on a donation, it's a different story, but YOU YOURSELF do not and have not done any of this....so it's a morality issue.

Do you drink? I think those that drink alcohol are immoral! Same with smoking! We all have our beliefs if you really want to try and justify that was of thinking towards getting people what they want.

I can't win, either it sits and rots and I am a hoarder, or I take donations for ROMS and I am greedy, or If I try to sell it I want too much money or people won't buy it.

People expect things for free too much, and it's the most laughable thing I have ever heard of.

[Leo_A]

I just quickly browsed your reply since I'm just about to go to bed, but I fail to see why not mentioning reproductions matters.

As far as I know, people doing that and organizations like AtariAge sell them basically at cost without even factoring in the many hours they spent burning eproms and assembling cartridges. I'm okay with that, one way to preserve a game is to make it available for those that want to experience it on real hardware, since not everyone is just satisified with a bin or has things like eprom burners or Cuttle Cart's to play them on.

Now if someone who owns a prototype is making cartridges and selling them for large sums of money that go way behind just covering their cost in materials and time, then yeah, they're scum for profiting off something that wasn't theirs to sell in the first place. The only thing that they own that they have a right to be making money off of is the physical prototype itself, they don't inherit the IP merely because they found a prototype.

[mrmark0673]

Leo: Dumping shit for free is one of the most thankless jobs in the community. You pay a premium for an undumped game, you release the ROM for free, people grab it and wait for the next handout. Jason could release a ROM for free right now, he'd get called out as a hoarder the next day.

I release a free NES ROM every month on NA, and what does it do for me? I paid solid cash for each one of my protos (I even mention it in the ROM thread for archive purposes), dumping the protos straight up devalues them and I do it once a month knowing this. You get a few thank yous here and there and then people forget. You hold onto an unreleased game though...

Shit hits the fan real quick.

I've criticized (wrongfully) Dream's dump prices in the past, I have no problem admitting that. For me, it was because it seemed to inflate the price of protos outside of his hands not because I don't think he deserves the cash. When was the last time you dump and released anything for free? Like I said earlier, it could have been last week and people would have already forgotten.

I buy protos because I love releasing games that haven't been released, and I also like taking a look at the history of some of these games. I have at least 6-7 more unreleased games that I plan on releasing and I can't wait to get them out to the public so that others can get their hands on games that otherwise could have been lost forever. Does that make me some sort of saint or martyr? No, it just happens to be why I got into collecting protos. If collecting them and putting them on my shelf to collect dust was just as satisfying, you can bet your ass that is exactly what I'd do.

don't like it? Put up the cash to buy the games and release them yourself, simple as that.

[mrmark0673]

As far as I know, people doing that and organizations like AtariAge sell them basically at cost without even factoring in the many hours they spent burning eproms and assembling cartridges. I'm okay with that, one way to preserve a game is to make it available for those that want to experience it on real hardware, since not everyone is just satisified with a bin or has things like eprom burners or Cuttle Cart's to play them on.

Now if someone who owns a prototype is making cartridges and selling them for large sums of money that go way behind just covering their cost in materials and time, then yeah, they're scum for profiting off something that wasn't theirs to sell in the first place. The only thing that they own that they have a right to be making money off of is the physical prototype itself, they don't inherit the IP merely because they found a prototype.

I publicly released the amount of money I made on Hoppin' Mad, which not including the cost of the prototype cart was $1,010.76 . The game was unfinished and the last level needed to be coded basically from scratch. Couple that with the MONTHS of hard work and the thousands of dollars in overhead cost, I have no problem taking that money.

There has yet to be an NES release to date that was done "at cost" and you're delusional if you thought otherwise. The cart is worth considerably less when repro'd, you would be hard pressed to find anyone willing to dump a ROM AND do 100 repro carts for free.

[Leo_A]

I couldn't fall asleep. :)

mrmark0673, I don't understand what your post has to do with this. My entire post was about why I was okay with people releasing reproduction cartridges as long as they didn't try to rip people off by trying to make a profit off it and priced their products at a reasonable level that doesn't go beyond cost and something for their time invested. It sounds like you sold your cartridges at a generous level if you indeed spent hundreds of hours on the project. I doubt you even made minimum wage doing the programming and constructing cartridges and such, but probably more like pennies on the hour for the time you spent on the project.

I have no problem with you taking that money either for actual effort, but I will not condone taking money when that effort is just merely to attach a file and just consist of a few button presses. And I applaud you for releasing the rom when you were finished for everyone after also contributing to the community by making a run of reproduction cartridges. I think yours is an example of this done right that covers all the bases, with you even going the extra mile to help turn it into something playable.

And does it really devalue the prototype? Are you guys in this to make an investment in something you want to sell down the road for more than you paid for it? I think most prototype collectors are into it for the reasons you outlined were your own. It was always my impression that the handful of people in this community that were into prototype collecting were in it for the love of it due to being fascinated by holding in their hands copies of a game they have in production form that shows it at various steps of its evolution, or a game that never was released commercially, etc.

Somehow, I doubt the existance of a bin file at a website that is largely going to be downloaded by people such as myself that have no desire to collect prototypes is going to matter. These things are largely curiousities, nothing more. 99 out of every 100 of these is just of unfinished games that we have in finished form, or things that sucked so bad or were cancelled so early that they're not worth the time. Take this hamster game as a prime example. Its vary rare for something worthwhile like Jr. Pac-Man on the Atari 5200 to show up that is actually something people will spend a good bit of time playing.

If he wants to dump something and release it, that's his business. But it isn't his to profit from. If he's unwilling to do it just because he values this community and loves the hobby and wants to share his discoverys, I'd rather see him hold on to his prototypes. I'm disappointed there are members of this community that willingly will make donations to him to release bin files.


Just because I preserved the data definitely does not mean I am a preservationalist. You made up that "quote" by saying "usually", but it's not true.


Stop focusing on that, it isn't important. My point was that preserved doesn't mean that there is just an electronic copy of it on your hard file. That I made the leap to think that you considered yourself a preservationist becaused you repeatedly used the word preserved is extremely unimportant, I was talking about your actions you took that made you consider to have preserved a unreleased title. By most definitions, just backing something up and otherwise doing nothing isn't a state that an item can be considered preserved. But that your personally archiving something or using a word is unimportant and not why I made my initial post.



Also, you are USED to people giving away stuff. You said it yourself. You don't do it (buy the games up and release them)


I never said such a thing. I fully support situations like mrmark0673's, or a respected member setting up a fund that members can donate to in order to fund the purchase of a prototype in order to release it publically. What I don't support is charging people for code that isn't theirs to be charging for. And yeah, I don't do it myself. I don't have the budget or desire to do such a thing. I'm happy others enjoy it, especially when it ensures the preservation of something.

Its the historian in me that wants to see things saved. One example is I love passenger trains and ocean liners, and hate airlines since they're the competition to the modes of travel I love and have been fascinated with my entire life. But you can bet I want examples of things like a Convair 880 airliner saved and such, its my nature. I don't like seeing anything go extinct or be lost. It doesn't mean I like airlines anymore than it reflects on why I do or don't collect prototypes.




I spent time and money and lots of effort to acquire said games. People want to SEE and PLAY these games. My prices are going to be stupid high if they want to OWN the games, but the thing is it's the data on the carts that people want. Once it's dumped, they forget really quickly where it came from. At much more of a fraction of the cost they get the dump.

It isn't yours to sell! If you were truly afraid of it hurting the value of your collection and your charging a fraction of what it cost you, why do you do it anyways? It doesn't add up.

You spent a lot of time and money to acquire these because I assume you like it and enjoy it. If you decide to release something you discover, that's cool. But I don't see why that investment in time and money is a legitimate reason to charge for something. Like it or not, just because you own the prototype doesn't mean you own the intellectual property contained on that prototype.



To a lot of people they are happy to see the game and play it. To you I'm making money? What I want to know is, who cares? Why does it matter to people when I make money, but people make profits all the time on all sorts of other things?

Because I'm a member of this community also. And I take offense that people that share the views that I do at this forum have been vilified and written off as being things like being jealous or wanting something for free, etc. I'm speaking out not because I'm a socialist or any nonsense like that, but because I think its wrong for myself and anyone that shares my opinion to discouraged to speak out, and expecting money to release electronic code of historical interest.



I can't win, either it sits and rots and I am a hoarder, or I take donations for ROMS and I am greedy, or If I try to sell it I want too much money or people won't buy it.

People expect things for free too much, and it's the most laughable thing I have ever heard of.

You try to sell it and people think you want too much money? Maybe its not worth what you think it is and there really aren't people sitting on the sidelines to pay even just what you paid for an item?

If it sits and rots and people call you a hoarder, and you truely believe its right to not release something to the community that could be seen as revealing a part of the history of this hobby or helping the programmers that programmed something that was considered lost to be recognized, or in some cases see their work for the first time in decades (Such as with a NES prototype I read a thread on today at AA), why do you let it bother you? Your conscious is apparantly clear. The physical prototype is your property. Even I wouldn't say anything about you doing that, though I wouldn't consider it very neighborly. It's your right to not release it if you don't want to for whatever your reason is.

No one expects anything for free. Just please stop charging for something that isn't yours. It isn't your right to do so.

Anyways, those are just my thoughts. Ultimately at the end of the day, it doesn't matter in the big scheme of things. I just wanted the other side of the coin to be heard and perhaps give something to think about to those that feel like you do. And for what little its worth considering my post in this thread have probably been an annoyance, I think your a respected and honest member of the community and that DP and AA are better off having you as a member. I just merely don't like seeing money being asked for in order to dump a unreleased game and wanted to speak out and give an opinion that is typically discouraged from being heard here.

[HyperGHZ]

I've only skimmed through this topic but here's my 2 pennies:

DreamTR you are awesome.

You have done an unmeasurable amount of work for the community and should not be expected to run a museum or give things away just because you have a large collection.

I have a video production business and people are always trying to argue with my price or rip me off etc... My bottom line is that I have expenses and I need to pay my bills. I have my price and that's it, no one should argue with this. If they don't like it, they hire someone else.

Anyway, I will happily throw down my hard earned money to get prototypes released and feel 100% congruent with this because I understand that you have expenses and this is included in the price.

If you happen to make any profit in the process, you deserve it for all of your time and effort.

[DreamTR]

LeoAmes: So I gathered this from your posts:

It's ok to make repros as long as you aren't making too much profit.
It's ok to dump the game ONLY for free.
It's NOT ok for me to SELL the game AFTER I bought it because it's NOT mine?

Do you realize how ridiculous all that sounds?

Again, people get to play unreleased protos, that's the point. Do you think that people on here find games at flea markets and sell them for what they paid? Some stuff I had to trade an arm and a leg for.

Honestly, you have this moral issue with the whole ordeal and that's YOUR business, but it's super contradicting because it should NOT be ok to make repros, who said it was that person's cart to make repros off of?

YOu realize you are basically saying www.retrousb.com is "scum" because they are making money or the "attempt" is to make money off of said game.


I told you I don't have time to deal with making copies of games, and by the way, that goes right along the lines with making copies of items that are not RIGHTFULLY yours.

Everyone making repros is scum then. Atari 2600.com, CGE, everyone. Because in all actuality, NO ONE is doing this COMPLETELY for nothing. It may be McDonalds wages, but it's profit.

Oh, and I forgot to mention, if I OWN the game, the actual physical cartridge that I find at a garage sale or whatever, it is MINE to do what I want with it. It's not the community's. MINE. I found it. I bought it. I can and will do what I want with it. It is not the "community's" game.

And just as a FYI, If I sell the data for LESS than what I paid for the cartridge, I'm NOT MAKING MONEY, I am LOSING MONEY. These games DO DEVALUE when dumped, it's BEEN PROVEN TIME AND TIME AGAIN. THis whole intellectual garbage crap only works when I AM MAKING A PROFIT and I AM NOT. So everything you said is out the window. It all goes down to I am not releasing a game for free to appease your bizarre "morality" towards protos since it was already discussed that you have never been involved in buying/selling/releasing these things. You do NOT have a voice in this matter. It does not matter if you are a "member" of this community because you are not contributing anything to the matter. You are not a customer for games and such. This is not like I am trying to provide you with a service. THe games will be dumped one way or another, so everything you mentioned only makes sense if you were being provided with a service, contributed to the cause, ANYTHING. But there's nothing there, so your whole conjecture towards this makes NO SENSE and is just how you feel about it but it has nothing to do with the situation.

I've had enough of my stuff dumped/given away/traded, but of course, as usual, people tend to forget that as always.

The fact I want some money that I PAID for this stuff and you are saying that is wrong is just asinine.

It's still boils down to the same tired old argument. The only way you are satisfied is if I dump the game for free, or make repros and sell them. I can't even sell the cartridge according to you. Wow. LOL...

No wait, let me restate that again, LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

[Enigmus]

Is it just me or does almost every thread in the prototype forum lead to this?

It happens in ALL prototype forums. That, and the 3 prototypes that, if not dumped, would lead to angry fanboyism are either Sonic, RE, or anything Sega Saturn. The 3 things that make an angry fanboy. DreamTR is right. It's their protos, and you're not Prototype Game Hitler where you can force everybody to dump their protos, but it doesn't work that way. It's theirs, and they can make money or not dump it if they don't want to. If I found a copy of, oh, say, Shenmue for Sega Saturn, I could say I'm not dumping it or I'm making repros. I'd just tune out the dumb fanboys screaming "OH NO YOU GIMME IT I WANNA PLAY" like a 5 year old. It'd be my prototype, and it'd be my decision. The key is to ignore the fanboys.

[Baloo]

Baloo: X-Men and a nice surprise are next.

Awesome, I like the sound of both X-men and a nice surprise. I'm assuming the surprise is a prototype that no one knows you own?

[DreamTR]

Baloo: Some people know I own it, but it's not like I am advertising it....I know more than one exist, but surprisingly it is not dumped yet....

[Leo_A]

LeoAmes: So I gathered this from your posts:

It's ok to make repros as long as you aren't making too much profit.
It's ok to dump the game ONLY for free.
It's NOT ok for me to SELL the game AFTER I bought it because it's NOT mine?

Do you realize how ridiculous all that sounds?


Of course it sounds ridiculous, because you added in stuff in that I never said. I never said it wasn't okay for you to sell the game you bought. Your free to sell your prototypes, flush them down the toilet, put them into pots and cover them with soil, or whatever pleases you.

But the game code isn't yours to be selling. The only thing that is your property is the physical prototype.



Again, people get to play unreleased protos, that's the point. Do you think that people on here find games at flea markets and sell them for what they paid? Some stuff I had to trade an arm and a leg for.

Honestly, you have this moral issue with the whole ordeal and that's YOUR business, but it's super contradicting because it should NOT be ok to make repros, who said it was that person's cart to make repros off of?

YOu realize you are basically saying www.retrousb.com is "scum" because they are making money or the "attempt" is to make money off of said game.

The games are theirs to sell, its their property if they find a cartridge at a flea market and then want to go sell it for a billion dollars on eBay. Same thing goes for your physical prototypes. And I could care less if you give your prototypes away, sell them for what you paid, or charge 10 times what you paid for one if you decide to sell it. It has no relevance to the conversation.

And yes, its contradicting in a legal sense to view making reproductions as acceptable but not allow you to sell electronic bin files. Morally, I think its a completely different story. One is someone providing a service to the community by offering to construct cartridges with a rom that is otherwise not going to be playable on a console. Its charging for a service to construct a cartridge with a file that is otherwise available online.

Your not doing any such thing, your just taking money before hitting attach and directing the message board to where a file rest on your hard drive in exchange for money and then clicking post. Your doing nothing but selling history that isn't yours before electronically releasing a small file. I don't see how you can see any redeeming value in that or even consider it the same thing as what places like RetroUSB are doing. Your not adding any value to it, your just releasing a file that isn't yours when "donations" reach an acceptable level to you.

Companies like Atari and Activision look the other way and condone having sites like AtariAge make their classic properties available free of charge and creating cartridges with things like hacks. However, I can assure you if you go into Wal-Mart and buy Test Drive Unlimited for the Xbox 360, that your idea that it gives you the ownership of the code contained on that disk to replicate, release, and sell as you see fit wouldn't stand up in a court of law and a company like Atari would never look the other way. Or for even a better analogy, use a classic arcade title like Asteroids. They don't do anything to sites that make the rom available for MAME. But if you decide to start selling it, you could see yourself in the same trouble that guy that tried to steal the MAME copyright is in right now. One is furthering history and the Atari brand, another is simply taking advantage of that brand for a monetary return.



Everyone making repros is scum then. Atari 2600.com, CGE, everyone. Because in all actuality, NO ONE is doing this COMPLETELY for nothing. It may be McDonalds wages, but it's profit.

Oh, and I forgot to mention, if I OWN the game, the actual physical cartridge that I find at a garage sale or whatever, it is MINE to do what I want with it. It's not the community's. MINE. I found it. I bought it. I can and will do what I want with it. It is not the "community's" game.


Its okay if they're making something out of it, because they're being paid for more than just violating copyright laws by selling something they don't own. Sites like AtariAge and RetroUSB sell their games at very reasonable prices and often include things like full color boxes, manuals, label art, etc. Your paying for the service of having a cartridge constructed, your not paying for a file that you likely have on your hard drive anyways. All your doing is selling a file that isn't yours to sell.

And yeah, I fail to see why that 2nd paragraph is there. I never hinted that that was the case and I even repeatedly stated that all those were your rights. However, when it comes to you selling the electronic contents of that prototype, that isn't yours. It isn't your possession, the only thing you own is the physical prototype.



And just as a FYI, If I sell the data for LESS than what I paid for the cartridge, I'm NOT MAKING MONEY, I am LOSING MONEY. These games DO DEVALUE when dumped, it's BEEN PROVEN TIME AND TIME AGAIN. THis whole intellectual garbage crap only works when I AM MAKING A PROFIT and I AM NOT. So everything you said is out the window. It all goes down to I am not releasing a game for free to appease your bizarre "morality" towards protos since it was already discussed that you have never been involved in buying/selling/releasing these things. You do NOT have a voice in this matter. It does not matter if you are a "member" of this community because you are not contributing anything to the matter. You are not a customer for games and such. This is not like I am trying to provide you with a service. THe games will be dumped one way or another, so everything you mentioned only makes sense if you were being provided with a service, contributed to the cause, ANYTHING. But there's nothing there, so your whole conjecture towards this makes NO SENSE and is just how you feel about it but it has nothing to do with the situation.

Its never been proven, its just been mentioned by people such as yourself to help make rationalize your actions. And the rest of your post barely makes any sense at all. You have a bizzare sense of right and wrong.



The fact I want some money that I PAID for this stuff and you are saying that is wrong is just asinine.

It's still boils down to the same tired old argument. The only way you are satisfied is if I dump the game for free, or make repros and sell them. I can't even sell the cartridge according to you. Wow. LOL...

Show me once where I said you can't sell your prototype. I never said such a thing.

I'm saying its wrong for you to make money off someone else's work that isn't yours to be making money off of. The only way I'll be satisfied is if you stop doing such a thing. Its extremely bizarre that you think you have a right to be selling game code merely because you bought a prototype of someone else's property.

The only thing you own that you have a right to sell is the physical prototype itself and the 1 copy of game code contained within that cartridge, you do not have a right to be selling the game code itself contained within the prototype.

[udisi]

According to this, I would think DreamTR "preserves" his protos.


http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_1861737138/preserve.html

pre·serve [ pri zúrv ]


transitive verb (past and past participle pre·served, present participle pre·serv·ing, 3rd person present singular pre·serves)
Definition:

1. make sure something lasts: to keep something protected from anything that would cause its current quality or condition to change or deteriorate or cause it to fall out of use
They are anxious to preserve the area's rural character.
We need to preserve professional standards of conduct.

2. maintain something: to keep up or maintain something
She preserved a cool and composed manner throughout the interrogation.

3. treat food for storage: to treat or store food in such a way as to protect it from decay, e.g. by pickling, drying, salting, freezing, or canning

4. make jam from something: to make jelly, jam, or marmalade out of a fruit

5. keep animals in secure area: to rear wild animals, especially fish and birds, in a protected area of water or land, so that they can be fished or shot for sport in the hunting season

6. protect somebody or something: to protect somebody or something from danger, especially the danger of being killed or damaged ( formal or literary )
prayed that they would be preserved from danger

[DreamTR]

Leo, it has been proven that unreleased protos devalue once dumped.

Unreleased protos for NES dumped on eBay reach less than $300. Ones that are not dumped go as high as $1800 just on eBay alone, and this is years past. That is just NES alone as an example. The idea that you think I am making this up is even more laughable and proves you know nothing about prototypes and collecting and what the community "wants" from it. They want the data. They don't give a shit about the physical cart.

The problem here is you don't pay attention or know anything about these items and it is quite obvious.

I don't even sell the code or press attach. Someone else dumps stuff for me and does it themselves. I send the games off because THAT IS WHAT PEOPLE WANT. THEY WANT THE CODE.

The only person that cares about the physical carts is me, which is why most of the times unreleased protos end up being sold and resold once dumped.

The "rights" you are talking about exist only in your head. I think you have the "right" to give me your possessions.

You know, I worked really hard on a lot of NubyTech and Pelican accessories and even worked on some games. If anyone is selling them, they have the right to give the items back to me because I worked on them. Yeah.

All of this would make more sense if you were part of the prototype community, but you are not even a part of it!

[Guy Bramsworth]

But the game code isn't yours to be selling. The only thing that is your property is the physical prototype.


I just want to point out I have never understood this argument. Do people not realize you buy a game because a game is on it? The cart has no value whatsoever if there's zero data on it. Admit it or not, you're paying for the data whether it's a prototype or not. And lets not forget that no amount of words from either side will justify anything as eve owning these things to begin with is technically in the gray area already. No argument so far here stands when you consider that not a single thing involving these protos ISN'T already going against SOME sort of ethics.

People will pay for what they want. If you don't play protos then you really should just look the other way and forget it. It's not really helping anyone that you find it bad that people will willingly pay for something they want.

And I'm glad that we have the opportunity that we can buy protos, or at least know that someone who owns them DOES have them properly preserved so that even without a dump to the public at least the data won't be lost forever :) Compare that to other collectors who refuse to even bring their stuff out of their closets and let people know it exist. DreamTR deserves a bit more respect in a community like this. If you've got a real issue with anything, get rid of the dealing of protos with anyone period off the face of the earth, huh? Because I don't see what you're problem is if you're not so into protos to begin with.

[mrmark0673]

The only person that cares about the physical carts is me, which is why most of the times unreleased protos end up being sold and resold once dumped.


I don't agree with this part of your post. I care much more about the physical carts than the code and of the major repro releases in the last few years for the NES, the only cart that I can think of that was sold after a release was the The Tower of Radia.

[DreamTR]

I don't agree with this part of your post. I care much more about the physical carts than the code and of the major repro releases in the last few years for the NES, the only cart that I can think of that was sold after a release was the The Tower of Radia.

You are the exception to the rule...most of the others released get sold pretty quickly, but we're talking handfuls these days....

[mrmark0673]

You are the exception to the rule...most of the others released get sold pretty quickly, but we're talking handfuls these days....

Definitely not as many getting released now as their once were, and I do agree that back before people were doing large NES repro releases carts changed hands much more often after the game was dumped (Sunman, Hit the Ice, Crossfire, Raisins, etc.).

[Leo_A]

I'm going to agree to disagree, I just wanted a different viewpoint to be heard. I'm not so idiotic that I think I'll be able to change the viewpoint of every user at Digital Press. And I'm tired of writing long winded post, I think I've gotten my message across that I don't consider owning a physical prototype to constitute ownership of the code contained within it (And thus, not something you can ask money for in order to release it). And that was all my goal was with my first post.

udisi, that is just a short generalized dictionary definition of what preserved means that isn't specific to an artifact, it could even be referring the food in your freezer.

In the context of historical preservation, the criteria I briefly mention in my initial post must be present to qualify as being considered to be preserved.