College Student Arrested for Modding Consoles

[SegaAges]

I think that some of the arguments you guys are using are pretty dumb dudes.

Let me explain/retort:
Argument: Why should it be illegal to do what I want to do with what I own? I can't buy my own glock and file off the serial number even though I own it. That is bullshit.

Retort: Yes, I used a stupid example. I know. This is what separates it. Even if all he was doing was modding consoles, he was not modding his own, and modding a shit load of other people's. Did he make all of these people sign a some fucking waiver that said "I will never use this for pirating purposes?" It is the same principle of why head shops get shut down or raided all the time. They sell pipes, bongs, and many other smoking utensils and they even have signs up saying that the shit should only be used for tobacco.

Look, nobody is stupid. If you are racking in money with a huge clientele base for modchips, you will get raided and busted. Regardless of whether or not the high penalties stick do not matter for us (it matters for that guy and his clients). The fact of the matter is that he was racking in money for modding consoles.

Whether or not we think it is harmless or not does not matter. I think it is harmless to go 10-20 over the speed limit and still not drive shitty. That does not mean that I can just say that to a cop and walk.

What he was doing was very illegal according to what multiple DP'ers have found with information. Now with all of the clients he had, it just multiplies the trouble this person is in.

Argument: He broke the law. Fuck him. Let him rot in jail for life.

Retort: Really? Are all of you such law obiding citizens that any person that commits a crime in America should go to jail, and then we are the ones pumping out tax dollars to keep them in there? Remember, they go to jail, and you get to pay for their room and board. Good job. Just invite his ass to your house and let him stay at your place for free instead.

Sure, if you break the law you need to pay the price, but I am a pretty firm believer that people should be put in jail to keep them away from the masses. Does this guy need to be separated from the masses? I believe that sexual offender that do harm to others, murderers that do harm to others, and well, pretty much any other person that does harm to others needs to be separated. They are separated to keep them from continuing to do harm to others.

But wait, isn't assisting in mods helping harm others in an indirect way by having modchips that allow to play pirated games. Not every person in the game industry is a CEO of a millionaire. Wouldn't this leak down to the janitors at EA?

No.

It is nice that you care so much about the custodians that work for game companies, but I would not be too concerned about their jobs because of pirating. If the game is good enough, people will still buy it. Shit, I have bought many games I should not have because of the game itself. I bought, own, and enjoy Spore. I should not have because of all of the extra bullshit they shoved into the game for DRM purposes, but I bought it. I am not saying I should have pirated it instead. I should have just not dealt with it at all. I did so that I could play and enjoy the game.

Even shitty games or games people just do not like can hit platinum hits or greatest hits or whatever.

I love Sonic 06, but I am one of the very slim few who does. I bought it because I fell in love with the demo. It got good enough sales to hit Platinum hits. So it must have done decent for sales.

So do not be too concerned about the janitors.

Argument:
Since I do crimes here and there and I can justify them even if they are petty and small, others doing the same crime on a larger scale should not be punished.

Retort: Try doing it on a larger scalre and see what happens.

My personal opinion:
No jail time is needed. Slap a fine on him based on the sales he made and call it a day. If he has that on his record and he has no money from it, I would be very surprised if he was inclined to do it again

[monkeychemist]

Let me explain/retort:
Argument: Why should it be illegal to do what I want to do with what I own? I can't buy my own glock and file off the serial number even though I own it. That is bullshit.

Retort: Yes, I used a stupid example. I know. This is what separates it. Even if all he was doing was modding consoles, he was not modding his own, and modding a shit load of other people's. Did he make all of these people sign a some fucking waiver that said "I will never use this for pirating purposes?" It is the same principle of why head shops get shut down or raided all the time. They sell pipes, bongs, and many other smoking utensils and they even have signs up saying that the shit should only be used for tobacco.

I don't like your retort one bit. You can't compare a situation that could cause bodily harm to someone to another that *may*, somewhat, one day, possibly damage a company's bottom line. That's apples to oranges sorry...

[SegaAges]

I don't like your retort one bit. You can't compare a situation that could cause bodily harm to someone to another that *may*, somewhat, one day, possibly damage a company's bottom line. That's apples to oranges sorry...

As I said in the post, the gun was a stupid example. That is all it was, was an example. I could have used anything. I could have used modifying refrigerators to make them more energy efficient or something.

The point of that retort is what matters, not the example. The point was that he was not modding his own console. He had a shit load of people he was modding for.

Come on now, there is no reason to pull a full counter argument based off of an example of something that I clearly said was a dumb example and was used only as an example.

If you don't like the gun example, swap it for the fridge one I just posted and the rest of the post and the points will still be valid

You saying that also helps support my argument about jail time. He was not doing a harm to a person, but to a company, really.

[Ed Oscuro]

As I said in the post, the gun was a stupid example.
It's pretty weak to say "some of the arguments you guys are using are pretty dumb dudes" and then use a lame example yourself.

Besides, it shouldn't matter if it's the console owner or the person doing the service making the modification; consider the serial # filing example to see why.


Using it outside of Japan is indeed illegal :oops: the back cover of any Japanese game is very clear about it.
That I'm doubtful of - they don't seem to have any legal agreement with the governments of the United States or Mexico (to give two examples) for prosecuting people, and I'm not sure it even has teeth within Japan.

However, in Europe... (http://www.jenkins.eu/mym-spring-2007/game-over-for-sony-parallel-imports-.asp) figures the bloody EU would agree to something protectionist like that.

We also all remember Lik-Sang going out of business after getting hit by a couple Sony lawsuits (including one in London).

Basically, there's multiple angles the big multinationals can use to hit people in various countries...not everything in the US is good or bad.

[Garry Silljo]

As I said in the post, the gun was a stupid example. That is all it was, was an example.

If you were paying attention I already did the purposely stupid argument thing to highlight a point earlier. These people don't respond well to that.

[InsaneDavid]

If you were paying attention I already did the purposely stupid argument thing to highlight a point earlier. These people don't respond well to that.

:roll:

[otaku]

what he did was wrong modding a console to play imports and backups I can see as ok a disclaimer is probably a good idea but consumers should be allowed to mod for imports and backups of games they own. Anyway bottom line I think his punishment should have been a hefty fine and or some community service. Jail time is stupid its overkill.

[SegaAges]

If you were paying attention I already did the purposely stupid argument thing to highlight a point earlier. These people don't respond well to that.

I was hoping that if multiple people through them out, it might push the point.

Hahaha, the example I made was purposely over the top and retarded.

[IcBlUsCrN]

Argument: He broke the law. Fuck him. Let him rot in jail for life.



see now you over exaggerating no one said for life



Retort: Really? Are all of you such law obiding citizens that any person that commits a crime in America should go to jail, and then we are the ones pumping out tax dollars to keep them in there? Remember, they go to jail, and you get to pay for their room and board. Good job. Just invite his ass to your house and let him stay at your place for free instead.

no one using this retort its just dumb for the most part Americans are law abiding people and yes its our tax dollars at work but its spread over 100 million people, Speaking of tax dollars , do you think this modder paid taxes on the money he was making? I am going to go out on a limb here and say NO.



Sure, if you break the law you need to pay the price, but I am a pretty firm believer that people should be put in jail to keep them away from the masses. Does this guy need to be separated from the masses? I believe that sexual offender that do harm to others, murderers that do harm to others, and well, pretty much any other person that does harm to others needs to be separated. They are separated to keep them from continuing to do harm to others.


So then tax evaders should go free? How about drug users, they are only hurting themselves right? How about peeping toms they are just looking?





It is nice that you care so much about the custodians that work for game companies, but I would not be too concerned about their jobs because of pirating. If the game is good enough, people will still buy it. Shit, I have bought many games I should not have because of the game itself. I bought, own, and enjoy Spore. I should not have because of all of the extra bullshit they shoved into the game for DRM purposes, but I bought it. I am not saying I should have pirated it instead. I should have just not dealt with it at all. I did so that I could play and enjoy the game.



every bootleggers excuse

[j_factor]

The point of that retort is what matters, not the example. The point was that he was not modding his own console. He had a shit load of people he was modding for.

Personally, I see nothing wrong with that. In my view, he was offering a legitimate service.

It's interesting that you brought up head shops. I was going to use that example before I read your post. But I was going to say that I've never heard of a head shop being raided (at least not around here, and not in recent memory). Just because marijuana is illegal (which is BS in itself, but I digress) doesn't mean that a bong or pipe should automatically be illegal. It's the substance, not the tools.

Installing a mod chip isn't piracy. You haven't pirated anything until you've obtained an illegal copy of something. Unless the chip contains illegally copied BIOS or something, it's just a chip.

[Ed Oscuro]

I think it's time to put this topic to bed already, nothing good seems to be coming out of it...

[InsaneDavid]

I think it's time to put this topic to bed already, nothing good seems to be coming out of it...

You don't waste no time at all
Don't hear the bell but you answer the call
It comes to you as to us all
Were just waiting
For the hammer to fall...

[garagesaleking!!]

this is basically exactly the same as people illegally downloading music, many many people do it and know it is wrong but say everyone does it so i can too, and also they say i will never get caught what can happen? I have no problem with this guy going to jail, is 10 years too long, yes, but i still dont have a problem with it, would i love to have a modded console and be able to get every brand new 360 game for $5? yes, but i know its wrong and dont do it. the kid is a dumbass and should not be attending such a recognized university. I am sure he made the $5000 bond from everything he sold or worked on.

[Garry Silljo]

Just because marijuana is illegal (which is BS in itself, but I digress) doesn't mean that a bong or pipe should automatically be illegal. It's the substance, not the tools.


Unfortunately the bong or pipe is illegal. At least selling it is.

This is from Tommy Chong's wikipedia page. I remembered seeing the documentary mentioned below and thinking this was retarded. He was only selling the pipes, not the drugs, but he did time none the less.

"In 2003, Chong was targeted by two American investigations code-named Operation Pipe Dreams and Operation Headhunter, which sought out businesses selling drug paraphernalia, mostly bongs. Operation Pipe Dream was run from Pittsburgh, PA. US Attorney Mary Beth Buchanan oversaw the case. The estimated cost of Operation Pipe Dream was over $12 Million and included the resources of 2,000 law enforcement officers.[9]

Chong was charged for his part in financing and promoting Chong Glass/Nice Dreams, a company started by his son Paris. Chong’s case never went to trial; instead Chong accepted a plea agreement with the United States Attorney's Office in which he admitted to distributing 7,500 bongs and water pipes on the Internet through Nice Dreams, a family company that was named for one of his movies. Chong agreed to plead guilty to one count of conspiracy to distribute drug paraphernalia in exchange for non-prosecution of his wife, Shelby, and his son, Paris. Chong fully cooperated with the government and was the first of the Operation Pipe Dreams defendants to plead guilty.[9]

At Chong’s sentencing, Assistant US Attorney Mary McKeen Houghton stated in her sentencing arguments that Tommy Chong "used his public image to promote this crime" and marketed his products to children.[10] US Attorney Mary Beth Buchanan also was present at the sentencing and released a statement to the press stating, "there are consequences for violating the law, even if the violator is a well-known entertainer like Thomas Chong."[9]

While Chong argued for community service and home detention at his sentencing, the district judge denied his requests and sentenced him to 9 months in federal prison, a fine of $20,000, forfeiture of $103,514, and the loss of all merchandise seized during the raid of his business.[10] Chong served his sentence in Taft Correctional Institution from October 8, 2003 to July 7, 2004.

The entire episode was chronicled in the 2006, award-winning documentary by Josh Gilbert, The United States Government vs. Thomas B. Kin Chong, a/k/a Tommy Chong. The documentary premiered theatrically at the Film Forum in New York City in 2006."

[SegaAges]

see now you over exaggerating no one said for life

Of course I am exaggerating. I was not pulling direct quotes from people. I can go back and pull them if you want.



no one using this retort its just dumb for the most part Americans are law abiding people and yes its our tax dollars at work but its spread over 100 million people, Speaking of tax dollars , do you think this modder paid taxes on the money he was making? I am going to go out on a limb here and say NO.

So then tax evaders should go free? How about drug users, they are only hurting themselves right? How about peeping toms they are just looking?

it is not a matter of him paying tax dollars, it is a matter of us paying tax dollars on him. There are better places for drug abusers than prison. I can list them off if you want.

Peeping toms, they are not hurting anybody. If they turn peeping into stalking, then it becomes an issue that is very close to something that could cause harm to the person that is getting stalked. The paparazzi can technically be counted as peeping toms, so if we punish peeping toms, we should punish the peeping toms that take peeping tom pictures of celebs and blast them on websites and in magazines.

Now tax evaders, we should give them penalties like we do for anybody else that causes a crime that is not hurting others. Well, tax evaders hurt us indirectly, but I mean physical harm.

The fact of the matter is that think of a tax evader that goes to jail. They do not pay taxes and then others indirectly have to make up for it, and then he goes to jail, which, in turn, makes us indirectly pay even more taxes on this person.

The tax evaders, mod chippers, those people do not need to be separated from society. They need other punishments. Putting them in jail is just a lazy way of dealing with the situation. Just get rid of them and we can pay the tax money to do it. Our prisons are already getting over crowded, so why waste our tax dollars on putting people in jail when we could give them other punishments that would work just fine.

A good example: Let's say that the person that installed modchips made $100 per chip (just an example), and they sold 10 chips, which would be $1000. Now instead of just fining this person $1000 which would keep them in business, double it. Fine them $2000. What this will do is hurt the person's pocket book, and not just peel away the profits.

Yes, this is only an example, but if the issue is that they are taking money away from others for doing this, then take away their money.



every bootleggers excuse
How is me saying I will buy a game to play it being a bootleggers excuse? I clearly gave an example of how I enjoy buying games, even when others shun me purchasing games. It is, in fact, the opposite. The problem is that others will find a good game and not purchase it. For me to play this game, I will not illegally download it. That is one of the main differences between me and bootleggers. I will play a demo or read up on a shit load of reviews.

I make no excuses. If you want proof, look at the thread I made about my arcade machine. Something that seems to be acceptable among many people, a mame cab, is something even I will refuse to do. Read up.

Even if I say the same thing as bootleggers, the truth of the matter is that I make no excuse, and I am for real. If I like the game, played a demo, or read many different reviews, I will buy it.

Also, some people brought up whether or not it is legal to install mod chips, and it was, I believe Flack and a few others that have already pointed out that it is illegal to install. Now, as I said earlier, if it is illegal to install and you have a huge amount of clients, the penalty will be much bigger.

[j_factor]

Unfortunately the bong or pipe is illegal. At least selling it is.

This is from Tommy Chong's wikipedia page. I remembered seeing the documentary mentioned below and thinking this was retarded. He was only selling the pipes, not the drugs, but he did time none the less.

"In 2003, Chong was targeted by two American investigations code-named Operation Pipe Dreams and Operation Headhunter, which sought out businesses selling drug paraphernalia, mostly bongs. Operation Pipe Dream was run from Pittsburgh, PA. US Attorney Mary Beth Buchanan oversaw the case. The estimated cost of Operation Pipe Dream was over $12 Million and included the resources of 2,000 law enforcement officers.[9]

Chong was charged for his part in financing and promoting Chong Glass/Nice Dreams, a company started by his son Paris. Chong’s case never went to trial; instead Chong accepted a plea agreement with the United States Attorney's Office in which he admitted to distributing 7,500 bongs and water pipes on the Internet through Nice Dreams, a family company that was named for one of his movies. Chong agreed to plead guilty to one count of conspiracy to distribute drug paraphernalia in exchange for non-prosecution of his wife, Shelby, and his son, Paris. Chong fully cooperated with the government and was the first of the Operation Pipe Dreams defendants to plead guilty.[9]

At Chong’s sentencing, Assistant US Attorney Mary McKeen Houghton stated in her sentencing arguments that Tommy Chong "used his public image to promote this crime" and marketed his products to children.[10] US Attorney Mary Beth Buchanan also was present at the sentencing and released a statement to the press stating, "there are consequences for violating the law, even if the violator is a well-known entertainer like Thomas Chong."[9]

While Chong argued for community service and home detention at his sentencing, the district judge denied his requests and sentenced him to 9 months in federal prison, a fine of $20,000, forfeiture of $103,514, and the loss of all merchandise seized during the raid of his business.[10] Chong served his sentence in Taft Correctional Institution from October 8, 2003 to July 7, 2004.

The entire episode was chronicled in the 2006, award-winning documentary by Josh Gilbert, The United States Government vs. Thomas B. Kin Chong, a/k/a Tommy Chong. The documentary premiered theatrically at the Film Forum in New York City in 2006."

Well, that's exceedingly stupid. A bong is just a couple of tubes and a bowl. There's nothing about it that's inherently criminal. I've known people who would keep a bong on a shelf as a knick-knack (and yes it's tacky). They're very easy to make; people only buy them if they want "nice" ones.

I don't even know how they would prove that it's for marijuana. You can smoke anything in a bong. Obviously bong-smoking tobacco isn't common, but it is common with, say, salvia, which is legal. I'd bet a very large portion of consumer hydroponic equipment is purchased for growing marijuana, but I'd hope hydroponic retailers aren't at risk of being shut down by the DEA.

[SegaAges]

Well, that's exceedingly stupid. A bong is just a couple of tubes and a bowl. There's nothing about it that's inherently criminal. I've known people who would keep a bong on a shelf as a knick-knack (and yes it's tacky). They're very easy to make; people only buy them if they want "nice" ones.

I don't even know how they would prove that it's for marijuana. You can smoke anything in a bong. Obviously bong-smoking tobacco isn't common, but it is common with, say, salvia, which is legal.

I will not justify the Nebraska police raiding head shops. I am using it as another example that fits perfectly with this situation.

The head shops I used to go to actually had signs up saying that the stuff they sold were for tobacco use only. I even went to ones that would not let you into the back room of good utensils until you bought a small bag of tobacco.

They still got raided all the time. The name escapes me right now, but there was a head shop in Lincoln Nebraska that got busted a buttload of times, and then they moved to Omaha. They could have moved from the raids, or they could have had other reasons, but them getting raided all the time makes sense that they would move to another city.

[garagesaleking!!]

some of you need to get back on topic...:whip:

[monkeychemist]

As I said in the post, the gun was a stupid example. That is all it was, was an example. I could have used anything. I could have used modifying refrigerators to make them more energy efficient or something.

The point of that retort is what matters, not the example. The point was that he was not modding his own console. He had a shit load of people he was modding for.

Come on now, there is no reason to pull a full counter argument based off of an example of something that I clearly said was a dumb example and was used only as an example.

If you don't like the gun example, swap it for the fridge one I just posted and the rest of the post and the points will still be valid

You saying that also helps support my argument about jail time. He was not doing a harm to a person, but to a company, really.

Fridge example is stupid too. If I was to be a genius of engineering and I bought a fridge and made it super efficient to turn around and sell it, would that be illegal? No, it's just someone being smart enough to make something better. That's why these arguments never hold water with me because it's legal with almost any consumer product and super federal prison illegal for fucking video games.

[megamaniaman]

They're giving him such a huge punishment to make an example out of him in hopes other people won't do what he did.

But they still will and nothing will change.
Ding, Ding, Ding! We have a winner!

[SegaAges]

Fridge example is stupid too. If I was to be a genius of engineering and I bought a fridge and made it super efficient to turn around and sell it, would that be illegal? No, it's just someone being smart enough to make something better. That's why these arguments never hold water with me because it's legal with almost any consumer product and super federal prison illegal for fucking video games.

In reality, it is very close to the example.

Making a video game console super efficient to be able to do extra stuff.

What separates modding a video game console from modding anything else that you own? Not much.

I really do not think that there is anything wrong with modding consoles. I really don't. I have stressed that multiple times, and telling me that there is nothing wrong is preaching to the choir as I have stated earlier that I am not against it.

I am retorting against both sides at once.

It turned into 2 sides of the matter very, very fast. One is saying that this guy has done nothing wrong at all. One side said that he is doing mad illegal shit.

The sides seem to be very extreme and on opposite ends of the spectrum, when there is really no need.

Go back and look at previous posts. Whether we like it or not, what he did was illegal. Multiple people have already proven it.

Do I like the fact that it is illegal? Of course not.

He did something illegal, and on a pretty big scale based on the fact that he has a nicely sized list of clients and also made a profit off of it.

Would somebody flipping ultra fridges be illegal? Fuck man, if modding consoles and selling the service is illegal, which in turn, hurts the game companies, the ultra fridge could also hurt frigidaire since they are the ones selling the fridges, not the ultra fridges.

I don't like the fact that it is illegal, but it is. Whether or not you like it, it is illegal. It could be one of the dumbest laws ever, but it is there.

I am not going to sit here and try to prove whether or not it is legal or not when many others in this topic alone have already proved that it is illegal.

And some people have already been outcast as straight out pirates in this topic simply for saying him getting busted is fucking retarded (I do not think I was the only one that was called a pirate).

Seriously look at what others have posted. Look at all of the posts saying, "He did the crime, now he should pay the time".

I have already typed up enough about why the max penalties are just fucking stupid.

Yes, I understand that this is the internet, and that anything that could even have a remote effect on us, we will get pissed and rant about it on a message board. But if you are truly that pissed, you can do something about it.

If you truly believe that this should not be legal, do something about it. Go to your local congressman. Get a petition going. I know that in the state of Nebraska, I did the numbers, and if I get 76,225 people to sign a petition, it gets put on the ballot.

If you truly are that pissed that this is illegal to the point where you are in absolute denial of the fact that it is illegal, take action. Do something. Stand up for the guy by doing something awesome like going to your local congressman.

Have any of you done that who think this is bullshit?
Have any of the people who think he should pay the time ensures that will happen?

I am actually in the process of getting a petition going after my brother who is a poli sci major got pissed at me ranting about all of the legal shit that I thought was dumb (the petition is not related to this, but used as an example to show that there is a difference between being pissed on the internet, and doing something with that anger to make a difference).

Seriously. Stand up and do something if you don't like it. You can. If you refuse to do anything about this situation, then what does that say? Really, I don't know, but I am sure that you guys can fill in the blanks.

You think it is bullshit, do something about it. There are lots of things that you can do.

[monkeychemist]

If you truly are that pissed that this is illegal to the point where you are in absolute denial of the fact that it is illegal, take action. Do something. Stand up for the guy by doing something awesome like going to your local congressman.

Seriously. Stand up and do something if you don't like it. You can. If you refuse to do anything about this situation, then what does that say? Really, I don't know, but I am sure that you guys can fill in the blanks.

You think it is bullshit, do something about it. There are lots of things that you can do.

(sorry I was out of town for a week)

There really isn't anything I can do even though I find that this is injustice. Sure, I can gather up some signatures, but how will I get a number like 70K? Over the internet, I doubt I will be taken seriously. Also, how the hell will a petition will hold up against lobbyists with unlimited resources? I can see my congressman "umm, let's see, a 100K signatures on one side OR $100K payoff from the guy who just bought my family a new Hummer. Our democracy in writing laws has failed years ago. All we can do is suck it up, bitch on internet forums at this point. I guess if we all stopped buying videogames at once it would send a message...but would we?

[Griking]

Crippen faces 10 years in prison if convicted and is scheduled for arraignment on Aug. 10.


I highlighted some important words.

I'd be surprised if he actually does more than a year unless he has a previous record or there's more to the story like if he was also caught selling pirated games.