New Game Informer. Xbox 360 Failure Rate? 54.2%

[kupomogli]

Of the two they I had in the bracket of the popular failures, one of the machines had well over 3000 hours on it. The other probably had close to 1000 hours on it.

1000 hours isn't that long. If you happened to use the system 4 hours a day, it'd die in less than one year. Even three hours a day is less than a year.

I've seen people in Dissidia have more than 1000 hours(no life I'd say. The game has only been out in Japan since last year.) I know a few people on UT3 on the PS3 probably have a couple thousand hours of gametime on that. Whenever I happen to get on, I end up seeing them on.

[s1lence]

Oh I'm not saying that 1000 hours is long, I was just using it to compare between the two.

[camarotuner]

Does anyone actually still care about this issue? Is it some grand revelation that the 360 has defective issues? Last week I sent out 11 dead 360's (work in videogame retail store). That's in one week. A high defective rate number doesn't surprise me. Who cares if it's 25 or 35 or 50 percent? All of those numbers suck. That's like debating which pile of crap looks more appealing.

If people want to own and play on a 360 good for them. If they want to buy multiple systems put them in everyroom of their house and replace them if/when they die, good for them. I had a 360, it died 6 times on me, I quit and bought a PS3. My buddy derek has killed 11 360's and is on his 12th. He still keeps playing it. He doesn't care if it dies, he wants to play 360. So he just sends them off in the coffin and gets it back when it's fixed. He did break down and buy a arcade unit so that when 1 is dead he has the second one to play on.

Why people bother getting upset and arguing over just how bad the defective number is astounds me. It's high, we get it, who cares exactly how high?

For the record, I give up buying domestic videogame systems for the same reason I gave up on buying domestic cars. I think JDM product is better built and is an overall more reliable product. I don't care if it's a car, tv, game system, or whatever. But that's me. Everyone else can buy whatever they want. It's not like it effects me. Some people react like it does. Get over it and just buy what you want and ignore what everyone spends their money on.

[Nature Boy]

Does anyone actually still care about this issue?

If nobody cared, nobody would bother posting because nobody would be reading.

I'm waiting too see if anybody reports failure relates that are specific to Jasper, because that's what I'm interested in at this point.

People not willing to abandon the hardware now doesn't surprise me - if you've spent money on extra controllers and games and peripherals (Rock Band) it will *always* be cheaper to just buy another unit and slap your HD onto that over buying a PS3 and buying everything *again* from scratch.

I really think MS will feel the hardware failure pain *much* more in the next generation, when consumers are deciding which one of the two systems they'll get. I know I'll be thinking long and hard.

[Overbite]

If you have 12 systems die on you maybe you should think about taking care of your stuff.

I know 360s die but I've had mine for almost 2 years and it works like it was new. If it ever dies I'll just send it in for a replacement. It has too many good games to just abandon.

[Kuros]

12 systems? Is he stuffing them inside of a tiny cabinet so they will overheat?

[ProgrammingAce]

I was going to stay out of this thread, but then i read the article... Game Informer really does fail at statistics.

From the information they gathered, they can't possibly infer the failure rate. They asked their readers if they ever had a 360 fail. They said that 54% of people have had a failure.

Now you have people like frankie who have had 6 failures. He would only count as 1 bad system by this metric. I own 4 360s, one of which failed so i've had a total of 5. I would have responded to the poll by saying i've had a failure. That wouldn't take into account the fact that 4 out of the 5 consoles perform perfectly.

Now the other question is to the bias of the poll. Right off the bat, they're only asking game informer readers. That's a very hardcore demographic of the video game console owners. Did game informer even have a way of verifying that the people who responded actually owned the consoles in question? I have no doubt in my mind that Xbox fanboys said they had PS3 and Wii failures in order to skew the results. Probably worked the other way too, how many rabid PS3 fans would respond to a 360 failure poll to push the numbers up?

It's just shoddy journalism from someone who has a very poor grasp of statistics.

[Greg2600]

Programming_Ace, the forum members in this post have more or less confirmed the article's point, 360's fail often. The point I was trying to make, in the midst of my flabberghasted-ness, is that Microsoft should have redesigned the system. Never in the history of video gaming has such a fragile console been produced and sold for so long. This thing is like the Yugo.

[The 1 2 P]

I'm waiting too see if anybody reports failure relates that are specific to Jasper, because that's what I'm interested in at this point.

Same here. I have a Jasper and it works perfectly but I've only had it for less than a year. I'd love to see a poll or just some concrete info on how well the Jasper's have performed since launching last fall.

[ProgrammingAce]

Programming_Ace, the forum members in this post have more or less confirmed the article's point, 360's fail often. The point I was trying to make, in the midst of my flabberghasted-ness, is that Microsoft should have redesigned the system. Never in the history of video gaming has such a fragile console been produced and sold for so long. This thing is like the Yugo.

I'm not disagreeing that 360s suck, i'm saying this poll is suspect and can't be used to show the failure rate.

Out of curiosity, what makes you think that microsoft hasn't redesigned the 360 several times? I think it's generally understood that Microsoft likes making money, do you honestly think they're not doing whatever they can to fix the problem? Expanding the warranty cost microsoft 1 billion dollars...

[kupomogli]

Now you have people like frankie who have had 6 failures. He would only count as 1 bad system by this metric. I own 4 360s, one of which failed so i've had a total of 5. I would have responded to the poll by saying i've had a failure. That wouldn't take into account the fact that 4 out of the 5 consoles perform perfectly.

First off. Why would you buy five 360's? I think it's more of you being a collector over having a system for your family members.

Second is also about you having five systems. Having more than one system means that you're going to get less use out of each system. You have to take into account that other than when you have people over, most of your 360s aren't even being touched.

That's like if I said I have 31 360s and I happen to use each one on each day of the month. At the end of the year, the most you'll have used any of them are 12 days. Obviously all 31 of them are going to be fine.

[ProgrammingAce]

First off. Why would you buy five 360's? I think it's more of you being a collector over having a system for your family members.

Second is also about you having five systems. Having more than one system means that you're going to get less use out of each system. You have to take into account that other than when you have people over, most of your 360s aren't even being touched.

That's like if I said I have 31 360s and I happen to use each one on each day of the month. At the end of the year, the most you'll have used any of them are 12 days. Obviously all 31 of them are going to be fine.

I think you misunderstand, I may have misspoken.

I own 4 360s. One of them died, so i had it repaired. So i've had a total of 5 in my possession.

I use one on a daily basis, my fiancee uses one on a daily basis, my best friend uses one on a daily basis, and one sits on a shelf because i'm afraid to use it.

What i'm trying to say is that there are some serious accounting issues when you take in to consideration how defective systems are tallied.

Example:

I have a launch 360 that dies on me. I send it in for repair, microsoft sends me a replacement console. They take the console i sent them, refurb it with a new motherboard and give that one to someone else. 6 months later it dies and the new owner sends it back for repair. He gets a different refurb and this one goes back out to someone else. This guy gets a red ring but the console still works. He gets pissed off and trades it into gamestop for a PS3. Gamestop sells it to someone else, it RRoD's out of warranty and the dude throws it away.

That one console counts as 4 different failures. Microsoft only sold one console, they only get 1 added to their sales, but they get pinged for 4 failures by 4 different users (and rightfully so).

That's a 400% failure rate. Frankie bought 2 systems, and they failed 5 times. That's a 250% failure rate. One of Frankie's defective consoles may have been sent to that guy that claims to have gone through 12 units. So now they each count a failure, then two additional failures because of the swap. When you start trading defective consoles, you get hit twice.

When you count failures as a percentage, you have to have something as a baseline. The logical thing to compare it to is the individual's purchases. We'll use frankie again, he bought 2 360s and had 5 of them fail. He has a 250% failure rate. That's not a very useful metric.

The most accurate way to track the failures, and the one used internally, is the number of failures compared to the number of consoles produced (and/or shipped). Neither of those numbers are something you can gather from a poll, and neither number is publicly available.

Attempting to extrapolate that percentage from a poll is shoddy journalism and a failure in the basic understanding of statistics.

[kupomogli]

If you buy the system new, then the console shouldn't fail. They also weren't counting refurbished ones, they were talking about the first failure. It's guaranteed that if you had a defect and getting a refurbished copy, you're going to get another one that's soon to have another failure.

I have a friend who went through seven 360's. I think it's been the same system though. Another friend that went through three and rarely ever plays it anymore because of WoW. Another friend who went through a few(not sure exact number but I do know as of right now can't play it as it's being sent back.) A few I know have went through just one or two each, and then I know one guy who hasn't ever had his system have a console failure once and it's a launch system.

So out of all the people I personally know. I only know one person who hasn't had any failures. It's atleast 80-90% for the people I know personally.

So for all the people who play their systems all day and don't get any defects, it just means you're extremely lucky. It's even been mentioned by nearly everyone on DP who owns only one 360 has had to return the system(nearly. Overbite and someone else said they haven't yet had to.)

[chicnstu]

I'll ask again since my other post must have gotten looked over. People are still acting like Game Informer had a section in a previous magazine asking "Send us an email if you've had one of your consoles fail and tell us which one.". Do we know how Game Informer asked? Does anyone here have the issue that asked the readers to respond?

- Did they ask "Have you had a hardware failure for any of the 3 consoles?"
- Or did they say "Send us an email if you own all three consoles", then once GI got the email, they asked "Have you had any hardware failures for any of them?"

Is what I'm asking stupid? Because it seems like the second option would be less skewed.

[BHvrd]

do you honestly think they're not doing whatever they can to fix the problem?

Considering that Microsoft is having their asses handed to them in spades what with the failure of Windows Vista, 360 RRoD, the constant incompatibilities with Internet Explorer cause of competition with Google and Mozilla and on top of it all trying to roll out Windows 7 quick enough.....I honestly don't think they have a choice and have been trying to buy time.

They know if they offer you a "hotfix" (Microsoft's #1 word) you will still buy their software and download their games and movies, so why worry as long as you are paying the bills for them.

I have to agree with the fact that there already should have been a complete redesign. Of course when it comes to Microsoft once all of their "hotfixes" (aka, jerry rigging) have been tapped out they just completely trash any prior product and bury it six feet under for the brand new waiting to be hotfixed product.

[jonnyutah]

will gamestop take my console if the dvd drive is starting to act up? LOL really. i wana trade it in but my dvd drive has a mind of it's own.

[Rickstilwell1]

Is it true that the black Elites are less failure prone than white premiums/arcades? That's the kind I got because I heard it was better with those issues.

[s1lence]

First off. Why would you buy five 360's? I think it's more of you being a collector over having a system for your family members.

Second is also about you having five systems. Having more than one system means that you're going to get less use out of each system. You have to take into account that other than when you have people over, most of your 360s aren't even being touched.

That's like if I said I have 31 360s and I happen to use each one on each day of the month. At the end of the year, the most you'll have used any of them are 12 days. Obviously all 31 of them are going to be fine.

Simple I have a US system for EACH tv plus I have a EURO and Japanese system too, so that would be why I own so many systems.

[swlovinist]

I agree that Microsoft will have a bigger problem next generation with all these hardware issues. People have invested too much to switch this generation. The console has some of the best games, but dang whether or not the Game Informer article is right, people have their systems die waaaaaaay too much. I one of the lucky son of a guns that won my system when they came out, and it still works great.

[ProgrammingAce]

You know, Sony really has to be sitting their shaking their heads... The 360 has the durability of a banana and Sony still gets outsold week after week. It's not like Apple where Microsoft's advertising is overwhelmingly popular or something. It's all about the games, and in the public opinion, the 360 has better games. Even though now the systems are relatively even, Sony still suffers from that initial black eye.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

You know, Sony really has to be sitting their shaking their heads... The 360 has the durability of a banana and Sony still gets outsold week after week. It's not like Apple where Microsoft's advertising is overwhelmingly popular or something. It's all about the games, and in the public opinion, the 360 has better games. Even though now the systems are relatively even, Sony still suffers from that initial black eye.

True, but the prohibitive pricing was always a wall which has now been lowered.

There are enough exclusive titles and media features, along with a hardware re-design and subtle public opinion re-boot to cause a swing in sales.

Price drops almost always correlate to higher sales.

Reports were in that Amazon had completely pre-sold-out of PS3 Slims days after they were listed.

While Sony made massive mis-steps out of the gate and in the first few years, they've done a lot to course-correct. And with their low failure rate, new "profitable" hardware design, and less prohibitive consumer price structure moving forward, they should be able to come out of this console generation without taking "massive enemy damage" :wink 2:

MS on the other hand has to contend with huge bleeds in profit from continued extended warranty repair/replacement ... and with what is likely a price drop on elite units out of necessity not calculated business, one will need to ask, (and I admittedly hate the concept of "console warz") will the winner in this race be the one that comes out having won the hearts/minds of the gaming public or the one that has the most loot in their games division pocket-book to fund R&D on the next gen?

Sure, MS can divert profits from other areas to the games division to keep things floating, whereas Sony likely can't (no secret that they're not in great shape outside of Movies and Games).

I'm not claiming to have the answers to the above questions ... but it's certainly worth thinking about.

[Nature Boy]

Microsoft should have redesigned the system

Isn't using a newer chipset really the same thing? I know only of the Jasper, but isn't that at least the 3rd tweak they've made?

It's not like they're still selling the exact same hardware they brought to market at launch.


The most accurate way to track the failures, and the one used internally, is the number of failures compared to the number of consoles produced

Doesn't that still count the same console more than once? Wouldn't they track the number of serial numbers that have failed against the number of serial numbers available (which equals consoles produced)?

[kupomogli]

Frankie, you also forgot to mention the fact of whether or not consumers will also purchase the next XBOX system when going through failure after failure of the current system on a regular basis.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

Frankie, you also forgot to mention the fact of whether or not consumers will also purchase the next XBOX system when going through failure after failure of the current system on a regular basis.

But, if MS wins the hearts and minds of the public, which they clearly have in the US, failure rate/number of consoles returned for repairs/purchased is negligible in terms of coming back for the next gen XBOX.

Now, if they continue to have hardware issues in the next gen, THAT might be a problem for them (or not if they keep extending warranties!).

[Therealqtip]

I thought it was closer to 100%. I'm not trying to be funny, I can't think of anyone I know who has only bought one system.

I'd believe it.

[The 1 2 P]

and with what is likely a price drop on elite units out of necessity not calculated business

Actually that price drop was planned by Microsoft for quite sometime and leaked ads from Walmart, Best Buy and other retail chains have surfaced over this entire month. And keep in mind that the ads for these price drops have to be purchased weeks ahead of when they are actually printed.

So the Elite/Pro 360 price drops a few days after the PS3 price drop was more a coincidence than anything else and benefits Sony more because, had they not dropped their price when they did, they would have been even more expensive than the competition after Microsoft's scheduled price drop.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

Actually that price drop was planned by Microsoft for quite sometime and leaked ads from Walmart, Best Buy and other retail chains have surfaced over this entire month. And keep in mind that the ads for these price drops have to be purchased weeks ahead of when they are actually printed.

So the Elite/Pro 360 price drops a few days after the PS3 price drop was more a coincidence than anything else and benefits Sony more because, had they not dropped their price when they did, they would have been even more expensive than the competition after Microsoft's scheduled price drop.

While you might be right (I have no clue who was actually planning a price drop first) by appearances alone, Sony did it first, so unless MS wants to go on record and state that they had it planned all along, it looks like a reactionary move on their part.

[The 1 2 P]

While you might be right

I am. Look at this article (http://www.industrygamers.com/news/report-xbox-360-elite-price-drop-coming-end-of-august/) then ask yourself if the PS3 price drop came before or after this story broke. The answer is simple.


by appearances alone, Sony did it first, so unless MS wants to go on record and state that they had it planned all along, it looks like a reactionary move on their part.

Only to the untrained eye. Thats why I provided you with all the evidence you needed to know the truth;)

[ProgrammingAce]

My understanding of the situation is that Microsoft found out about the PS3 slim (and come on, everybody knew about it) and decided to cut their price. Sony hadn't really decided on the price for the slim yet, but dropped the price because they could.

I'm sure Sony would have much rather left the price alone with the slim and taken the boost with the new product now, then lowered the price after christmas and get another sales boost then.

Each company did what they had to do, i don't think either was a reaction to the other.

[Greg2600]

Microsoft's price cut means you get less with the system, also. Anyhow, whether Game Informer's numbers are correct or not, the failure rate on 360's is very high, higher than any video game console in decades. The PS3 Slim will likely send a spike in console sales Sony's way (lower price), and earn them good will.

IMO, had Microsoft redesigned the 360 to stop the majority of RROD errors, they would have earned much good will. Profits, too, as some people would have bought a new 360 by now, if they heard it was reliable. It's something I think they could have done, and cost a LOT less money than the billion plus on warranties. I agree though that Microsoft's hotfix mentality might play a part in that, but it's really a poor idea. They've been the biggest benefactors of Sony's PS3 high price gaffe, and now that Sony will sell more PS3's, it's only going to hurt the 360.

[The 1 2 P]

You know, Sony really has to be sitting their shaking their heads... The 360 has the durability of a banana and Sony still gets outsold week after week. It's not like Apple where Microsoft's advertising is overwhelmingly popular or something. It's all about the games, and in the public opinion, the 360 has better games. Even though now the systems are relatively even, Sony still suffers from that initial black eye.

Although I was immediately reminded of the PS2 "disc read error", the RROD has lasted from the 360's second year(2006) until present. Thats three years and it's still not 100% fixed. But despite that little gaffe, people keep coming back for more. Thats what I call brand loyalty and it's the kind of brand loyalty that Sony expected they would have out of the gate just because the PS3 had their name on it. Boy were they wrong.

And despite all of that, every system is now poised to compete directly with one another. The 360 arcade is the cheapest current gen system at $199, but the Wii is only $50 more at $250. And then you have the Elite and PS3 slim rounding things out at $299 a piece. This holiday season will be the true test of what all three systems are capable of. Theres no more excuses to be made about why one system sells more than the other. The playing field has finally been leveled and come January we'll know which system the consumers feel is the better overall value.

[The 1 2 P]

Jasper chips FTW, or atleast according to this (http://www.industrygamers.com/news/xbox-360-red-ring-of-death-abating/).

[kupomogli]

That says nothing about all the other problems the 360 has. Just RRoD. Besides, maybe that was a bad couple of months for the 360 failures.