PS3 = a cell based linux computer!

[jonnyutah]

This may be old news but it's news to me. and thoguht i'd post a thread about it. interesting info none the less.

you know when the ps3 was first annopunced and unveiled for the first time sony was touting the console as more than a mere next gen console. calling it a "computer system". i thought it was hype propaganda but in a way they were on to something. sure sony had a ps2 linux kit you could buy but they took it to a new level with ps3.

ps3 dose use a linux based OS and there is a certain openness abotu the ps3 when compared to the other two closed system consoles. youc an use any off the shelf bluetooth mic, keyboard or mouse. you can install your hdd of choice given it's the right size, install a 500gb hdd if you want. how much do you think m$ would charge for a 500gb propriatery hdd? LOL

From what i understand you can install any full functioning version of linux you chose. that's pretty cool. granted it won't be really fast due to the limited memory but still very cool. can you download yahoo messenger on linux? how about google or aim? or twitter and facebook? that would be cool to tweet from your ps3 on your sofa LOL.

you know, "Ibm Cell" cpu isn't even available in desktop form to the public. it's only for dedicated servers, workstations , medical, research, education, animation/game/movie studios etc. so ps3 marks the first it's widely available to the everyday desktop user. neat!

true most people will only use the ps3 for games and movies but interesting little tibbit that you can also use it for a a full linux based computer right in your living room. with your favorite linux distro. ;)

[ProgrammingAce]

It's a cool feature. Shame they're phasing it out.

[BHvrd]

There are things that can be done on the system within the main PS3 xmb that are somewhat unspeakable with absolutely no system modding whatsoever. I won't talk about it here, just search a PS3 tip site or something, but yes, there is much that can be done with Linux and even without Linux.

Sure the Wii can be soft modded, but you take a chance doing so, so "outta the box" the potential with the PS3 is large, even if they take away the "Other OS" you can still do alot on the system itself, any other system would have to be modded to do alot of what it can.

Though someone cracking Windows 7 and getting it to run on "Other OS" using the usb ports as a memory swap would be very interesting.

[Ed Oscuro]

IBM Cell is to Core i7 as iAPX 432 is to the i960, or 486 or Pentium, or the Transputer is to...something else, I suppose. Okay, that doesn't make much sense, but suffice to say the Cell is one of those rare designs that's ahead of the times (and the manufacturing technology) that got into the market. Probably will be more things like this if the console race stays this heated, however.

It's also worth mentioning that IBM made out very well this generation, as they modified their contribution to the PS3 core to create the Xenon in the 360.

[kedawa]

No they didn't. The 360 CPU and cell processor are both derived from PowerPC, but nothing from the cell went into the 360.
As far as processing power goes, the cell can't compete with even the lowest end desktop processor. It's not a power house, it's a power efficent, cheap, in-order cpu designed for a very specific use.

[jonnyutah]

what do you mean they are phasing it out? are they going to remove the "other OS" option? I hope not.

i checked out some of the stuff you can do on xmb and it is cool. you can hook up a web cam or a sony eye cam and use a psp to monitor the room it's in while away.

you know it really surprises me that m$ didn't offer web browsing on 360. even wii offers it. albeit you have to pay for it but still..

why would you want to use windows 7 on ps3!?! yuck! Mac Os X maybe but not windows man.

[Kitsune Sniper]

what do you mean they are phasing it out? are they going to remove the "other OS" option? I hope not.

They are. The feature has been removed in the Slim PS3.

[Ed Oscuro]

No they didn't. The 360 CPU and cell processor are both derived from PowerPC, but nothing from the cell went into the 360.
Mistaken you are, references (http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3904/processing_the_truth_an_interview_.php)
I now
give (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123069467545545011.html).


As far as processing power goes, the cell can't compete with even the lowest end desktop processor. It's not a power house, it's a power efficent, cheap, in-order cpu designed for a very specific use.
I agree with this. Actually, it does what it's supposed to better than the iAPX 432, but there are some similarities still: Both are multi-chip (the Cell is an architecture after all), and don't beat a desktop processor for general computing. It does do very well if there's not a lot of multi-branching though.

[jonnyutah]

looks like i'm getting a fatty :D

[Sonicwolf]

I can never understand peoples desire to install Linux on everything.

[The 1 2 P]

I can never understand peoples desire to install Linux on everything.

I installed linux on my toaster. I haven't had toast in three years.

[Sonicwolf]

I installed linux on my toaster. I haven't had toast in three years.

LOL

Just dont install linux into any pacemakers now.

[geneshifter]

LOL

Just dont install linux into any pacemakers now.

Too late. I have a wireless Apache server setup on mine.

[kedawa]

Mistaken you are, references (http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3904/processing_the_truth_an_interview_.php)
I now
give (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123069467545545011.html).

After reading the articles, I still don't see anything of substance that was taken from the cell design and applied to the xenon. There's obviously going to be some overlap in functionality, and they share a common origin in terms of the PPC architecture, but that's about it.
Maybe the book reveals something more substantial, though.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

This may be old news but it's news to me. and thoguht i'd post a thread about it. interesting info none the less.

you know when the ps3 was first annopunced and unveiled for the first time sony was touting the console as more than a mere next gen console. calling it a "computer system". i thought it was hype propaganda but in a way they were on to something. sure sony had a ps2 linux kit you could buy but they took it to a new level with ps3.

ps3 dose use a linux based OS and there is a certain openness abotu the ps3 when compared to the other two closed system consoles. youc an use any off the shelf bluetooth mic, keyboard or mouse. you can install your hdd of choice given it's the right size, install a 500gb hdd if you want. how much do you think m$ would charge for a 500gb propriatery hdd? LOL

From what i understand you can install any full functioning version of linux you chose. that's pretty cool. granted it won't be really fast due to the limited memory but still very cool. can you download yahoo messenger on linux? how about google or aim? or twitter and facebook? that would be cool to tweet from your ps3 on your sofa LOL.

you know, "Ibm Cell" cpu isn't even available in desktop form to the public. it's only for dedicated servers, workstations , medical, research, education, animation/game/movie studios etc. so ps3 marks the first it's widely available to the everyday desktop user. neat!

true most people will only use the ps3 for games and movies but interesting little tibbit that you can also use it for a a full linux based computer right in your living room. with your favorite linux distro. ;)

Amazing how a price drop (or re-design) will cause people to notice things that were there all along/always touted as features that made a system competitive or justified a higher price point.

Unfortunately, as stated the "install other OS" feature is going away in slim model systems. My guess is that Sony has probably seen it come too close to turning the PS3 into the piracy box that the Wii currently can be made into.

Par for the course for Sony, the PS2 slim was as much of an anti-piracy measure in removing the HDD bay as it was a cost saving form-factor re-design.

Also, I'm fairly certain that even with the benefits of being able to install Linux on a fat PS3 there are major limitations on how much memory and which processors it can use. I wouldn't expect it to run like a PC with cell processors at it's core, as I'm pretty sure those are all off limits to Linux on PS3. *EDIT* or the graphics processor. Bottom line, it's pretty gimped.

[kupomogli]

Everything on Linux is emulated by the cell. The graphics card is locked out so using Linux on the PS3 isn't as fast as you'd think it'd be.

[kaedesdisciple]

Too late. I have a wireless Apache server setup on mine.

So with nothing but an eee and slowloris I can stop your heart?

[smork]

I can never understand peoples desire to install Linux on everything.

I think turning your console into a computer, albeit an underpowered one, is pretty damn cool. Linux just makes it easy to do it!

[Daltone]

I installed Linux on my PS3 (Ubuntu). Had it there for ages, was using it as a computer. Alas it was simply too slow to be anything other than a novelty.

[kupomogli]

They should unlock the graphics card lock for those who have an older PS3.

[ProgrammingAce]

Everything on Linux is emulated by the cell. The graphics card is locked out so using Linux on the PS3 isn't as fast as you'd think it'd be.

That doesn't even make sense. The CELL doesn't emulate anything, it's just a CPU. Linux is not being emulated, it's running straight on the system just like it would on a standard desktop.

And there's no lock on the GPU, Sony/IBM just haven't released a driver for linux to take advantage of it.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

That doesn't even make sense. The CELL doesn't emulate anything, it's just a CPU. Linux is not being emulated, it's running straight on the system just like it would on a standard desktop.

And there's no lock on the GPU, Sony/IBM just haven't released a driver for linux to take advantage of it.

From the Wiki article - "...many complex games aren't possible on the PlayStation 3 through Linux as access to hardware acceleration in the RSX is restricted by a hypervisor.

There have been developments in enabling access to the RSX through the Linux kernel and the X Window System[19]. It's possible to use the RSX memory as swap space. A trick to access some 3D functions was blocked with firmware 2.10."

I'm admittedly clueless in regards to how the hardware works, but If it's not locked, why did Sony actively block access to the 3D Graphics Processor?

[ProgrammingAce]

From the Wiki article - "...many complex games aren't possible on the PlayStation 3 through Linux as access to hardware acceleration in the RSX is restricted by a hypervisor.

There have been developments in enabling access to the RSX through the Linux kernel and the X Window System[19]. It's possible to use the RSX memory as swap space. A trick to access some 3D functions was blocked with firmware 2.10."

I'm admittedly clueless in regards to how the hardware works, but If it's not locked, why did Sony actively block access to the 3D Graphics Processor?

If someone were to produce a driver for the RSX, it would authenticate with the hypervisor and allow unfiltered access to the GPU. So i'm calling it a driver issue. The way i look at it, there's no "lock" keeping it from working.

Sony isn't releasing a driver because they don't want people homebrewing cool games for the PS3 without paying the licensing fees.

[Frankie_Says_Relax]

If someone were to produce a driver for the RSX, it would authenticate with the hypervisor and allow unfiltered access to the GPU. So i'm calling it a driver issue. The way i look at it, there's no "lock" keeping it from working.

Sony isn't releasing a driver because they don't want people homebrewing cool games for the PS3 without paying the licensing fees.

But if somebody backwards engineered a driver with the appropriate authentication, even without pirating code (if that's possible) Sony would likely just block that driver with a firmware upgrade, no?

[ProgrammingAce]

Could they? Not sure, i guess. The interaction between a hypervisor, operating system, and driver is pretty complicated. Entire master's degree programs have been created to cover it, it all depends how the system was setup.

I can't even guess if they'd want to block it, considering they're phasing out the OS install anyway.

[kedawa]

The biggest limitation for Linux on PS3 is the idiotic partitioning scheme Sony chose.
You're options are either;
1. 10GB for PS3, everything else for other OS, or
2. 10GB for otherOS, everything else for PS3

So, you either have a cripplingly small linux partition, or a cripplingly small PS3 partition.

[jonnyutah]

yeah it dose seem to be more gimmick than actual practical use but for the casual linux user i bet it would work pretty well. i would think someone will develop a ps3 specific ditro that works well with the ps3 cpu/gpu.

even if you never use a version a linux on ps3. you can feel comfort to the fact that the ps3 os is a custom linux based OS and not windows LOL

[Ed Oscuro]

After reading the articles, I still don't see anything of substance that was taken from the cell design and applied to the xenon. There's obviously going to be some overlap in functionality, and they share a common origin in terms of the PPC architecture, but that's about it.
Maybe the book reveals something more substantial, though.
I don't think you read either link I gave because it's pretty darn clear in both of them what happened.

Safe to say IBM probably won't be asked into another another partnership for a major chip design project (at least not without very strict rules), which is very bad for the future of one of their most important businesses.

[kedawa]

I read them both.
If you could quote me something that spells it out clearly, it'd be much appreciated.

i would think someone will develop a ps3 specific ditro that works well with the ps3 cpu/gpu.
Someone already has. It's called Yellow Dog Linux. It's been one of the better PPC distros for years, and the company that develops it has been selling PS3 super computer clusters for as long as PS3s have been on the market. I don't know how successful they've been with that, but it looks like that party is over thanks to the redesign.

[SegaAges]

I can never understand peoples desire to install Linux on everything.

Maybe it is because Linux kicks ass. I still fuck with my Dreamcast Linux CD every once in awhile

[jonnyutah]

i was rading an acticle last night that had an interview of sony reps. they were discussing the ps3 slack sales in japan and noted that it sells much slower than ps2 did. they were saying that they felt the low sales were atributed to the ps3 becasue having an identity crisis.
i'm sure the prcie at launch had something to do with that too.

he also said that the slim redesign and logo change were an effort to get back to the playstation roots. could be why they dropped the "Other OS" option?

[smork]

i was rading an acticle last night that had an interview of sony reps. they were discussing the ps3 slack sales in japan and noted that it sells much slower than ps2 did. they were saying that they felt the low sales were atributed to the ps3 becasue having an identity crisis.
i'm sure the prcie at launch had something to do with that too.

he also said that the slim redesign and logo change were an effort to get back to the playstation roots. could be why they dropped the "Other OS" option?

I don't think anybody here knows about the "other OS" option. Linux use is damn near non-existent in Japan.

I think a good part of the reason for lack of sales here is the fact that hi-def TV adoption rates are much lower than say the US. Most don't have cable TV/satellite and most don't have big widescreen TVs. So there's not as much demand for HD products. Coupled with the fact that there's still tons of releases for the PS2, and a large percentage of people game on DS/PSP on their commute rather than at home....

[Ed Oscuro]

I read them both.
If you could quote me something that spells it out clearly, it'd be much appreciated.
What I said: They modified their contribution to the PS3 to create the Xenon. From the first article:

Shippy doesn't believe that Microsoft yet knew that Sony had the PlayStation 3 in the works -- but liked what it saw in the PowerPC technology that was now possible thanks to design principles partly researched for Cell. "The initial tech that we built -- yes, it was paid for through the Sony-Toshiba-IBM Design Center, and was developed for the Cell chip," says Shippy.
It's also made explicit that Shippy and his team were upset at what they saw as being a betrayal of the Sony / Toshiba partners.
From the WSJ:

All three of the original partners had agreed that IBM would eventually sell the Cell to other clients. But it does not seem to have occurred to Sony that IBM would sell key parts of the Cell before it was complete and to Sony's primary videogame-console competitor. The result was that Sony's R&D money was spent creating a component for Microsoft to use against it.

[kedawa]

I just don't think 'design principles partly researched for Cell' is the smoking gun you guys make it out to be. For all we know, the PPC tech in the cell processor uses 'design principles partly researched for Flipper'.

Those quotes, if you actually scrutinize them, are vacuous. The 'initial' tech that they saw was not necessarily in the final product, it may have been just part of the pitch.

The fact that they didn't reinvent the wheel for some power management tech or mundane bus specification doesn't exactly equal the betrayal the cell team was crying about.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but the article doesn't offer any real evidence.
Like I said before, the book might have some juicier information, but from what I've read, it seems like something got blown way out of proportion.