Would a new 2D version of Castlevania be viable on the next gen systems?

[stargate]

I ask here instead of the Modern Gaming forum because...well just because...

also, I am not a Castlevania expert by any means...

One thing I cannot let go of or understand is why Castlevania never went back to its 2D roots after SOTN, save for the hand held versions. I mean SOTN came out when 3D was all the rave. I remember my friends calling me crazy for buying a 2D game on the PS, some wouldn't even play it. But it became a MASSIVE hit, won all kinds of awards and went down in history as the best Castlevania game of all time if not the best game to ever be released on the PS (this is all debatable, but you get my point).

Then came the 3D Castlevania games which IMO universally sucked. I suppose we could consider Castlevania Chronicles, but it wasn't really a "next gen" game.

Meanwhile, we start seeing 2D Castlevania games on the hand held systems and they are VERY well received and sell extremely well.

So did the developers ever stop to think that maybe a 2D next gen Castlevania was the way to go? I mean, I have always wondered what it would look like. Would the processing power and graphical capabilities of the PS3 and Xbox 360 just be wasted on a 2D side scroller OR could a game like SOTN on steroids/HGH be created that would just kick all kinds of ass?? In my mind, I am just picturing this mutli layered, crazy detailed, HUGE, RPG and side scroller mix of a Castlevania game all in glorious 2D and high definition.

Any thoughts?

[Akito01]

I ask here instead of the Modern Gaming forum because...well just because...

also, I am not a Castlevania expert by any means...

One thing I cannot let go of or understand is why Castlevania never went back to its 2D roots after SOTN, save for the hand held versions. I mean SOTN came out when 3D was all the rave. I remember my friends calling me crazy for buying a 2D game on the PS, some wouldn't even play it. But it became a MASSIVE hit, won all kinds of awards and went down in history as the best Castlevania game of all time if not the best game to ever be released on the PS (this is all debatable, but you get my point).

Then came the 3D Castlevania games which IMO universally sucked. I suppose we could consider Castlevania Chronicles, but it wasn't really a "next gen" game.

Meanwhile, we start seeing 2D Castlevania games on the hand held systems and they are VERY well received and sell extremely well.

So did the developers ever stop to think that maybe a 2D next gen Castlevania was the way to go? I mean, I haver always wondered what it would look like. Would the processing power and graphical capabilities of the PS3 and Xbox 360 just be wasted on a 2D side scroller OR could a game like SOTN on steroids/HGH be created that would just kick all kinds of ass?? In my mind, I am just picturing this mutli layered, crazy detailed, HUGE, RPG and side scroller mix of a Castlevania game all in glorious 2D and high definition.

Any thoughts?

It would nice to see a Castlevania game with the kind of care and attention to detail as Muramasa -but, there's a reason that Muramasa is on Wii, and that has do with the costs involved in creating and animating all that 2D art in HD. It also speaks to why all of the recent 2D Castlevania games have been on handhelds and the upcoming downloadable Adventure Rebirth on WiiWare. I think the future of Castlevania is probably going to depend on how well the upcoming 3D game on PS360 turn out. If they can't crack the 3D nut, the only way forward may be to return to 2D in a big way.

[Ed Oscuro]

It would be nice, but "high res" is something of a siren call. Nobody does it well.

Look at Toki HD - uhhhgly - and look at the box art for Zoku. Bad, but compare it to the low-res ingame art, which is beautiful.

Bottom line here is that you get more games, and they look better, at low rez. There are lots of people talented enough to do HD artwork, but with ever-expanding expectations, we'd still expect so much more of it that you'd have to have a very strict art process as well as a large team of talented artists to fill up a world in such a manner.

I don't think 3D on a 2D plane is quite there yet, if Trine is anything to go by (pretty but not world-beating). It's got lots more detail than previous games, sure, but the total picture looking good as a whole is what matters if we're going to talk about artstyles.

All that aside, no, I probably won't be very happy with most "HD" style game updates. It's not that artists available to the industry have gotten worse (they've arguably gotten much better), but that they would have to do much more work.

[Arkhan]

From a technical standpoint, doing 2D on the Xbox 360 is a complete joke. You could go apeshit with eye candy since you wont really be pushing the GPU while putting out 2D sprites.

I think a 2D one is very possible.. NIS has been putting out high res 2D RPGs on the PS2 for a few years now, and Muramasa looks kickass on the Wii. Those are underpowered in terms of the 360/PS3, so why not. The catch is convincing the developers to do it.

That being said, if you look at those games and imagine them with a Castlevania art style, yes. I think it is completely possible.

The DS titles are a good indication that the current artists know what the hell they are doing.

:guitar:

[betamax001]

BlazBlu looked pretty awesome so if they can do it, im sure Konami can.

[Arkhan]

BlazBlu looked pretty awesome so if they can do it, im sure Konami can.

This is extremely true!

That game has alot of eye candy too.

[Aussie2B]

The sad reality is that there just aren't many talented sprite artists left in the industry, at least not at the level of producing an HD home console 2D game. There's a reason why King of Fighters 12 took so long and why it still only ended up being half-finished, and a big part of that is because SNK struggled to even find enough people to hire that were capable of what they were aiming to do. 2D simply isn't valued in the industry anymore, at least beyond handheld games that feature sprites that are still on the same level as what was being created back in SotN's time (and usually not even that detailed or fluid).

[Arkhan]

heres to hoping the retro gaming boom will make some of these 3D people learn some real art!

[Tron 2.0]

Uhh castlevania rebirth any one ? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRqnn8sH7PI I know it's a remake of castlevania adventure beside...it not being the same far as the animation go's that you see in,muramasa the demon blade.Still it's a start for konami i've all ways ranted why not a new castlevania in 2d for todays console.I guess to konami they are paranoid a new one at retail wouldn't sell for some odd reason.

Beside the other being the time and resoruces to make it.Now most companys don't wanna mess with that any more such as cough,cough capcom :p

[Haoie]

3D CV is practically Devil May Cry, anyway.

[Arkhan]

3D CV is practically Devil May Cry, anyway.

except DMC is fun.

:)



CV Rebirth is a step in the right direction, but alot of the visuals seem Sega Genesis quality almost. The parallax and overall style are awesome though. Kinda sad the WiiWare is better than the Wii itself.

what it needs is some more anime-like spriteage, instead of shadeystuff.

[Aussie2B]

Castlevania Rebirth is a Frankenstein anyway (ugh, bad pun), seeing as its graphics are largely pieced together bits from SotN and the GBA/DS games. Sure, ever since SotN the series has had a tradition of recycling enemies ad nauseum, but Castlevania Rebirth takes it to a new level of laziness (granted, the nature of the product can excuse it to some degree). There's some original graphical content, but not nearly enough.

Frankly, from everything I've seen and heard, I think Konami in particular is sorely lacking talented sprite artists at this point in time. Honestly, I don't think they'd be capable of producing a high-res impressive 2D Castlevania, at least not to the extent of how impressive SotN was for its time. That ship has sailed.

[Press_Start]

It would nice to see a Castlevania game with the kind of care and attention to detail as Muramasa

Now that's a hot idea! Quick someone send Iga a copy of Muramasa or Odin Sphere ASAP!

[Aussie2B]

Isn't the animation in Odin Sphere and Muramasa akin to Flash, though? It's not traditional sprite-based animation like we're accustomed to, where every single movement needs a redrawn frame. Those games are beautiful, but I have a little more respect for those doing it the old-fashioned way and I'd prefer a Castlevania created that way. Besides, Flash and relatives have a distinct style of movement, and I'm not sure Castlevania would jive with it.

[Arkhan]

what do you mean "Akin to flash"?

I don't think Muramasa uses vector drawing. I think it was all done by hand, but I could be mistaken.

[Ed Oscuro]

Aussie2B means games that use vectors instead of pixel maps.

Personally I agree, although I wouldn't mind vectors used intelligently where possible to cut down on costs (i.e. in attack flashes or whatever).

It's clear that hardware isn't the limiting factor on 2D games, it's the ability to draw characters (as opposed to modeling animations etc.) and the budget to do that on all geometry. I think there's actually less difference between doing background graphics and creating textures for a 3D game than people suppose, but with 3D games the texture artists can often be lazy and leave the subtle details of shading etc. to geometry dressers / mappers / modelers.

In theory it should be possible to take team members skilled in 3D disciplines and move them to the closest analogue for 2D, but time and time again we see people making the same basic mistakes of treating 2D as 3D without depth, appropriate shading, contrast, etc.

[Koa Zo]

No,
Catslevania has been run ito the ground.
Give me somethingg new already. This rehashed, we're out of fresh ideas for characters and story crap is getting old.
2d is great, just give us a new franchise.

[stargate]

No,
Catslevania has been run ito the ground.
Give me somethingg new already. This rehashed, we're out of fresh ideas for characters and story crap is getting old.
2d is great, just give us a new franchise.

But CV: Order of Ecclesia is amazing !!

[The 1 2 P]

For the last two years or so I've heard rumors of a new 2D Castlevania coming to consoles. But instead we got that horrible fighting game on the Wii, which sold very poorly. Like others have said, the GBA and DS games have all been received very well and SOTN is still considered one of the greatest Castlevania games ever so I really don't know why Konami just won't take a gamble and make this game for the 360 and PS3. If they don't have enough artist for it they should just hire from another third party company.

[HYB]

I can't even imagine how much Konami would have to pay for the sprite artists.

Now, something like a side scrolling 3d game, like the rondo remake I would be very happy to see. I can imagine what something like Legion would look like, tons of highly detailed corpses and stuff. It would be awesome. I like the sprite style games more as well, since I'm more of a fan of the pre-IGA games, but it's more than unlikely we will ever see one.

[kupomogli]

But CV: Order of Ecclesia is amazing !!

Graphically, but that's where it ends.

Overall, OoE is a terrible game compared to the rest of the series. Feels extremely flat and the AI isn't good to the point that the game plays out like you go to each and every enemy and just tap Y and X over and over until it dies with whatever the most powerful attack you have, or use magic spells on it if the enemy is weak.

--

Anyways. I wouldn't mind seeing the Castlevania series being released 2.5d like Dracula X Chronicles. I've actually hoped someday that we'd actually see remakes of the rest of the level based games in the exact same style. The graphics to DXC looked amazing and extremely detailed throughout every stage. There were also a few stage and boss adjustments for the better.

[Arkhan]

Using sprites and other high-res 2D artwork on 3D hardware isn't an issue at all. The problem is its the new-school of game designers. The majority are used to working with 3D modeling and the accompanying skills/tricks and have never actually done any work on non-3D hardware. Or if they have, it's limited. They all came in and learned at the time when 3D models were the only thing of concern.

So when you tell them to make 2D pixel artwork, you either get flattened 3D textures, or an "I dont know how to do that, its hard".

I speak from experience on that one.

the opposite is true too though.

You find the most alpha pixelartist with a blackbelt in Pixel-Fu, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if his 3D modeling skills are pisspoor and a half. :)

What game companies need to do in order to deal with the retrogaming boooooooom, is have a division of their team that is experienced and willing to do 2D games the right way instead of telling their 3D crew "GUYS, we need a 2D game! DO IT FAST HURRY"

[carlcarlson]

I'd prefer a 2.5D game similar to BC:Rearmed or Shadow Complex myself. Sprites are great but I think they would require more time/money.

[Aussie2B]

I thought the 3D remake of Rondo was pretty damn fugly, but I'd be up for another sidescrolling 3D game. I mean, Goemon's Great Adventure is an amazing game and its graphics are excellent for the N64, so all Konami really needs to do is take that concept and apply modern day graphics.

[j_factor]

This 2D/3D talk reminds me of some old interviews/media I saw from back in the 80s comparing Tron to Secret of NIMH. The costs were comparable, but Tron's costs were mostly technology costs, whereas NIMH was a lot of man-hours. It was generally concluded that computer animation would replace hand-drawn, although Don Bluth argued vigorously against this idea. The computer graphics are a lot "easier" in many ways and it requires fewer artists, but you can't get the same look that you can get with hand-drawn animation.

Back to the topic at hand, I do agree with everyone else here that Konami may not have it in them to do a quality 2D game in high definition. But it would've been nice to see another 2D console Castlevania after SOTN. Like for Playstation/Dreamcast/PS2. I suppose they could still do one, for Wii, but I'd be afraid of the controls.

They do have other options for how to do the graphics, if they wanted to be a bit creative. Like Viewtiful Joe, that is a 2.5d game, but it looks "not very" 3D because of the way they did it. Or they could possibly use FMV backgrounds or something.

[Arkhan]

viewtiful joe is ugly as hell though. It took every maneuver Jet Grind Radio executed, and F***'d it in the A**

:) lol

[stargate]

Graphically, but that's where it ends.

Overall, OoE is a terrible game compared to the rest of the series. Feels extremely flat and the AI isn't good to the point that the game plays out like you go to each and every enemy and just tap Y and X over and over until it dies with whatever the most powerful attack you have, or use magic spells on it if the enemy is weak.

--

Anyways. I wouldn't mind seeing the Castlevania series being released 2.5d like Dracula X Chronicles. I've actually hoped someday that we'd actually see remakes of the rest of the level based games in the exact same style. The graphics to DXC looked amazing and extremely detailed throughout every stage. There were also a few stage and boss adjustments for the better.

To each their own, but I disagree. I think the OoC is a great game. Tight controls, good action, and actually quite difficult, but not to the point of frustration. For the most part, it got stellar reviews, so I know I am not alone here.

From Gamespot:

Castlevania: Order of Ecclesia Review: Ecclesia steps outside the castle walls and summons one of the greatest Castlevania titles in years.

The Good
Streamlined level design virtually eliminates backtracking Hideous creatures that are satisfying to kill Environments and musical score combine to create a foreboding mood Varied boss battles Combat system is versatile and rewarding.

The Bad
The boss fights can be far too punishing Some enemy and environment art is recycled.

[Xexyz]

Castlevania Rebirth is a Frankenstein anyway (ugh, bad pun), seeing as its graphics are largely pieced together bits from SotN and the GBA/DS games.

Sorry to question you, but could you give me some examples? Aside from the main character looking like a palette swap of Richter Belmont, all the NPC sprites are brand new.

[Aussie2B]

I was speaking more about the backgrounds. Like in this picture:

http://www.konami.jp/products/dl_wii_dracula_re_ww/images/ss_01wer.jpg

Everything is taken from SotN's entrance, the Marble Gallery, and a room near Wind's one in Portrait of Ruin, even down to the ram's head from the clock in SotN.