SNES vs Megadrive (Genesis)

[Icarus Moonsight]

You are not comparing the Snes controller to the original 3 button controller. That's the only fair way to compare them and in that battle, the Snes wins hands down.

If you want to compare the Genesis 6 button controller than why not compare it to Snes controllers such as the Super Advantage or even a 3rd party arcade stick like the Capcom or Hori fighting sticks.

The table is tilted and rigged...

Or the 6 button Sega stick where the buttons are set up 888 instead of o88o? LOL

Don't try to direct conclusions so overtly, k? :D

[Kevin Muldoon]

Nobody had any business using a 3 button Genesis controller for Street Fighter. The 6 button controllers were widespread and commonplace. Four face buttons is definitely not adequate for Street Fighter. They had to alter certain moves in order to make them doable in the SNES versions of the game. That's weak.

Which moves did they alter? I played the arcade game religiously before it came out. The main reason I actually purchased the SNES was because of SF II (I for the SF II bundle).

I think the argument that 6 button controllers were commonplace is weak. And I don't think they were commonplace anyways, certainly not in the UK. All the games I played on the Mega Drive was on the 3 button controller (which I liked).




The Genesis 6 button controller is extremely common and tons of people had them. Eventually they stopped selling the 3 button controller in stores. Few people had an SNES arcade stick, and the Super Advantage wasn't set up for Street Fighter either, only some third-party ones were. Those are all sticks, though. I've never seen an SNES pad that had six face buttons. One might exist, but if it does it's pretty obscure.

Are you kidding. There were dozens of SNES joypads with 6 buttons on the face of it.

Here's some (http://www.gamersgraveyard.com/repository/snes/peripherals/controllers-enhanced.html) for you :)

http://www.gamersgraveyard.com/repository/snes/peripherals/images/fighterpad.jpg

http://www.gamersgraveyard.com/repository/snes/peripherals/images/microgenius.jpg

http://www.gamersgraveyard.com/repository/snes/peripherals/images/multisystem6.jpg

http://www.gamersgraveyard.com/repository/snes/peripherals/images/vision_pad.jpg

That's just a few I found quickly via a search on Google. I remember there being loads more on the market in the UK when the SNES was popular. My friend had a good one which had 6 buttons on the front, an improved D-pad and auto buttons etc.

But we are moving away from the initial point. You are saying that the 6 button controller should be included because it was common place. The controller didn't even come out til 1993 in North America, 4 years after the console had been released.

[BetaWolf47]

I've never seen an SNES pad that had six face buttons. One might exist, but if it does it's pretty obscure.
Umm, I just posted one, 2 posts before you.

[Kevin Muldoon]

Umm, I just posted one, 2 posts before you.

incase anyone missed it :)

http://www.ncsx.com/2009/062209/SOTD/capcom_pad_soldier_08.jpg

[Rickstilwell1]

Because no matter how much you enjoy both, you have to have some sort of definable preference. To me, someone saying that they are total equals just means that they are lying to make friends... And where's the honesty or fun in that position? Weak! LOL

Another factor I neglected to add... The venerable M68k! IDK if there are more convincing factors on the development side than an already ubiquitous and familiar architecture.

For me it's a bit harder to pick one or the other because I had both of those and the NES since I was 6-7. I continuously got games for all 3 systems and it wasn't like there was a battle going on. The price battle actually determined how many games I got for each, and that made me like a system when I had more games for it. When I was a kid, I played more NES because those games were so easy to find at yard sales for a few bucks. My grandma would give me those games at random times during the year.

The Genesis and SNES games I only received new on my birthdays and Christmas as they were more expensive. I got them in equal amounts until the Nintendo 64 came out and my uncle gave me a bunch of free SNES games. At the same time, kids in school gave me a few of their old Genesis games they didn't want anymore. Either because of Playstation, Saturn or N64.

I'd say I got more enjoyment from the SNES because more of its games had save batteries to let you continue from where you left off and let you go back and play previous levels anytime. On the Genesis, the only platformer I ever had with a save battery was Sonic 3 (expandable with Sonic & Knuckles). Now as I collect more titles for both I am seeing that Genesis mainly just used batteries in RPGs (and not sure, but maybe certain sports titles.) Not so many in the platformer category. To me it makes the SNES a bit more convenient, especially when I was a kid and the only TV I had was in the living room. When my grandpa came home from work in the late afternoon and wanted to watch TV I got kicked off the TV and if I didn't have a save battery in my game, too bad - I had to start all over next time.

[Zebbe]

You logic is flawed for the very simple reason that ram has a different context on consoles that it does from computers, etc. If a console cart added some more ram, does that mean it's in a different league altogether? In the TG16 (more so in NES) case, a ram boost on cart would bring it up to speed with the other consoles - not give it an advantage. But in the CD case, ram is temporary "cart space/size".

Anyway, yes - it added a one PCM channel. But the TG16 has practically no system ram. 8k - that's it. This "ram" you mention is actually "cart space". Ouuu... CD 2.0 has 0.5 megabit cart space and CD 3.0 has 2 megabit cart space. It doesn't give it more vram, add any additional processing, give it more video hardware like scaling or rotation, it doesn't give it a brand new audio synth chip (SegaCD PCM sample synth chip), etc. *Not* even close to the SegaCD upgrade. Not even. It gives it ram to make it functional. It needs to hold code/graphic somewhere. It doesn't have rom to do it. Oouuu... it's soo unfair that the TurboCD has equivalent to a 2megabit cart perload. /sarcasm off

It's no different than saying the Neo Geo CD addon is upgrade to the Neo Geo because it has 8megabytes (64megabits) of ram. That's cart space.

Like I said, it's the only system in history were the addon replaced and surpassed the main design, AFAIK. And before half its life span. The TurboCD *is* the main system, with many more CD titles than hucards, and TG16 *is* the subsystem.

The SCD 3.0 card came built into the Turbo Duo (which *is* the main system). So there's really only 1 upgrade card from that. The Arcade card. Again, 1994.... just a ram upgrade. Plain Jane SF2 couldn't even be done on the TurboDuo. At minimum, half the frames would be missing compared to the *other* console ports, which already have less frames than the arcade. Half. Sure, the Arcade card adds 16megabits of ram. No, it can't be used for code. Only graphics/sounds. And 1994-1996, I think it's comparable/competitive to consoles getting bigger rom sizes. 40megabit SSF2 on Genesis, 64megabit Star Ocean (and two others) for SNES/SFC.

Little off topic: But just to show how little the Turbo Duo ram is, later games started going back to "chip" music because they had to cut down on load times. Stopping an audio track, seeking a data track, loading, then starting an audio track - really kills the load times. Playing an RPG where it has to load the town, load the enemies, load whatever... each time. All because even 2megabit cart space wasn't enough. You either sacrifice animation/graphics/etc to pack it into that small amount of ram, and still endure load times. Game developers took a step back and ditched CD audio just to cut down. It's not that I don't like chiptunes, but when you have fantastic CD sound tracks of other games and then devs decide to go back to chiptunes all the way through. Well... it's a little disappointing. Legend of Xanadu 1 & 2, released in 1994 and 1995. Using chiptunes instead of CD audio. Quite a few games didn't even use the extra ADPCM channel because they treated it as slow ram (and it is slow to read the port from) - just to get an extra 64k. So in some cases, even those minimum extra upgrades - still go out the window.

If the TurboDuo "*is*" the main system, then the CDX might as well be the "main system" and any library comparison can add all MS games to the MD library, as the Power Base Converter adds no hardware at all (not even a single PCM channel or RAM. Not even), the same way you call TG16 the "sub-system".

And yeah, if RAM is used for graphics/sounds, it would be the same to me as any other hardware upgrade, no matter what time or when during it's "lifespan" it is released.

But to put it in another way: since the TG16 CD games didn't add any hardware and by that reason count to the TG16 library, Mega-CD games can belong to the MD library too if they don't add any hardware either. I think games such as Popful Mail, Vay, Lunar 1, Final Fight CD and possibly Lords of Thunder (CDA doesn't count as new hardware, right?) should be MD games by your logic then. :P

[nebrazca78]

Nebrazca78
30
Genesis

Well, I have always been a big Genesis fan since I first saw it in action at a Toys R Us. The graphics blew away the NES so much it was a jawdropper. Large sprites and colorful graphics abound. Once we finally got it for Christmas we were ecstatic.

Later we also got a Super Nintendo but it was somewhat of a disappointment. I did like the fact that it had even more colors and the sound was better in certain games but too many games were disappointing. Super Mario Kart is one of the best games of all time and worked great with the SNES controller, however we were also Street Fighter addicts. The SNES controller was totally lame for fighting games so we ended up going with Street Fighter II SCE and a Genesis 6-button.

RPGs were also big in our house. We had Sega CD so were playing Lunar, Snatcher and Shining Force CD. The cinematics of these games blew away standard RPGs in our view so we really didn't get in to SNES RPGs.

Really though for the ultimate 16-bit experience I think you need Genesis, SNES and Sega CD. If you consider the Turbo Grafx to be 16-bit that should be in there too. They all have games that provide unique experiences that are not available on the other systems.

[Kevin Muldoon]

I'm actually tempted to look more into the Sega CD to play some of these games you are all talking about.

I love RPGs but try and stay away from them nowadays because they end up draining so much of your time (the main reason why I have avoided elder scrolls 4 on the ps3).

[Sosage]

Sosage
31
Genesis

Really difficult choice, so I am going to give you the answer I made when the two systems were in stores. Both have really good libraries, but the Genesis at the time was more appealing because it seemed "different". We were coming out of a generation dominated by Nintendo and here, going into this new era, was this new overall marketing campaign coming from out of left field. It was black, it was more mature, it had an "attitude" (how embarrassing now :P) and there were all these arcade games available for it. SNES seemed to be more Nintendo, just larger and prettier. There is nothing wrong with what Nintendo was doing, but here was this new looking thing over here. How exciting!

There is one exception: if I had to make my choice after Street Fighter II was announced for SNES and not the Genesis, I would have gone SNES day 1. The arcade release was a watershed moment and waiting for the Championship Edition release was torture.

Of course, there is also the Sega CD. If I had gone SNES instead of Genesis back in the day, I would have been regretting not having a Genesis (or wound up hating on the Sega CD for no good reason). It seemed so high tech and cutting edge at the time. It's kind of not fair to compare it to the SNES, only because Nintendo never released their CD expansion.

BTW: Snatcher is a great game, but it is definitely not a RPG. It's what we use to call a text adventure game, which has now been morphed into "visual novel/visual graphic adventure"...or whatever.

BTW, BTW: To my knowledge, Nintendo did not release a FIRST PARTY pad with 6 face buttons for Street Fighter II. Sega did. Sega actually pushed those things pretty hard IIRC. This is one of those very small incidents that made Nintendo look like they were out of touch with what their audience wanted.

[Icarus Moonsight]

But we are moving away from the initial point. You are saying that the 6 button controller should be included because it was common place. The controller didn't even come out til 1993 in North America, 4 years after the console had been released.

Included as a factor? Most definitely. Genny 6 buttons were packaged with the Model 3 unit and the Nomad had 6... 6 button pads on the Genny are relatively easy to find too. For the most part, I'm not fond of non-OEM controls outside of a few specialty controls (light guns, flight sticks etc.) or arcade sticks.

Nintendo never made a 6 button face (3 over, 3 under) pad AFAIK, and I can't find a decent quality SNES stick with the 3/3 layout unless it's both obscure and the monies. I'd love a SNES 6 button option, but I can't find one easily (net auctions usually) that is worth the price to me. I have a ASCII Super Advantage and it's layout is so odd (o88o), it only gets used for a few shmups, like Space Megaforce or Axelay. Fighters would be weird to play on one. Conversely...

I have no less than 5 OEM Genny 6 button pads (3 wired and 2 wireless, might have more...) and 1 stick. I also have a Majesco mini 6 button that came with my Model 3, and it's alright. I prefer the wireless though. The d-pad on them is near perfect IMO.

[Kevin Muldoon]

That's something I think a lot of people forget about. Many claim playstation was the first to target older audiences but Sega did it first with the Genesis/Mega-Drive with more arcade/sports titles and less cutesy characters (cutesy is a word you know!) ;)

[Sailorneorune]

Username: Sailorneorune
Age: 25
Console: Genesis
Main Reason: SEGA CHANNEL!

I actually grew up with both consoles (got SNES at launch, Genesis for 12th birthday), but I'm leaning towards the Genesis as I had gotten to experience a wider variety of its titles through that big, ugly, cumbersome, but wonderful other black plastic mushroom with wires hanging out of it. I speak, of course, of the Sega Channel Adapter.


Living in a small town with 2 or 3 video rental stores, all with the same 3 RPGs checked out until what seems to be the end of time for your average 12-year-old, the Sega Channel was a godsend. Playing a fun game like Vectorman before its official release was a big deal to me back then. I can also thank the Sega Channel for indirectly contributing to me pissing away $50 to import Pulseman from an ebay seller in Singapore. And the RPGs! Beyond Oasis! Phantasy Star IV! Shining Force II! All of these at my fingertips, and without having to spend $70 in hard-earned babysitting/chores/dog-walking money sight unseen just for one of these. I could do that whenever I darn well pleased, and with the added advantage of getting something I know I'll LOVE.

Winning an art contest with a lovingly rendered (as lovingly as a bored 6th grader could do anyway) sketch of the Shining Force didn't hurt either.

The games I loved back then are mostly dirt cheap now, which is another nice thing about the Genesis. Try getting Earthbound for $10. :mad:

Also, there's the Nomad. Sure, the battery life might extend to 20 minutes on nights when the moon is full and after you've sprayed it with holy water and danced naked around the rechargeable battery pack for six hours, but I can play it at work! There's something special about beating up street punks after a particularly bad phone call.

[tomaitheous]

The Sega CD (as well as 32x) still uses the Genesis hardware along with the hardware it adds. It's not independent. In order to make a Sega CD "console by itself", you'd need to include the entirety of the Genesis hardware. You can't divorce the Sega CD from the console it's dependent on.

I didn't say it *was* independent. I said how close it was from being independent. Which is pretty damn close. Same with the 32x. Matter of fact, someone could rig up the 32x to be a standalone system. You're avoiding specific facts so you can include it as part of the Genesis system, and at the same time TurboCD doesn't count? You're in conflict with yourself.



Nobody had any business using a 3 button Genesis controller for Street Fighter. The 6 button controllers were widespread and commonplace. Four face buttons is definitely not adequate for Street Fighter. They had to alter certain moves in order to make them doable in the SNES versions of the game. That's weak.

The Genesis 6 button controller is extremely common and tons of people had them. Eventually they stopped selling the 3 button controller in stores. Few people had an SNES arcade stick, and the Super Advantage wasn't set up for Street Fighter either, only some third-party ones were. Those are all sticks, though. I've never seen an SNES pad that had six face buttons. One might exist, but if it does it's pretty obscure.

Wow, I didn't know 6 button pads for Genesis were wide spread and common place when the SNES came out. I must have been blind. Sega must have been giving away 6 button pads with every purchase of SF2, as well. I mean, cause they were so common place when SF2 came out. Anyone who didn't already own a 6 button pad for the Genesis as soon as SF2 hit the streets, should have been bitch slapped :)



If the TurboDuo "*is*" the main system, then the CDX might as well be the "main system" and any library comparison can add all MS games to the MD library, as the Power Base Converter adds no hardware at all (not even a single PCM channel or RAM. Not even), the same way you call TG16 the "sub-system".

Zebbe: tl;dr, right? Right? Did you not understand anything I wrote?


And yeah, if RAM is used for graphics/sounds, it would be the same to me as any other hardware upgrade, no matter what time or when during it's "lifespan" it is released.

OMG. It's c-a-r-t-r-i-d-g-e s-p-a-c-e, man. What can't you understand about that? Did you also not understand the point where the Duo system was actually hindered by the minimal amount ram (even though it was a second memory upgrade), as well? So...by your same logic, any carts higher than 4megs is a hardware upgrade. I mean, it's no different - right? Cause ROM is used for graphics/sound. ......;>_>

It's best if you don't comment on the ram thing if you have no idea what it means in console context... and even more so, CD console context. Not everyone is a coder/techie ;)


But to put it in another way: since the TG16 CD games didn't add any hardware and by that reason count to the TG16 library, Mega-CD games can belong to the MD library too if they don't add any hardware either. I think games such as Popful Mail, Vay, Lunar 1, Final Fight CD and possibly Lords of Thunder (CDA doesn't count as new hardware, right?) should be MD games by your logic then. :P

Uhm... what? I never said the MegaCD didn't add any hardware. Actually, I REALLY quite said the opposite. So... how are they both the same, again? I also really like to know the point where the SegaCD format surpassed the cart format and became the dominate system and there were soo many more CD games than carts, etc. I must have been asleep. Sorry Charlie, but CDX != Duo. Sure, count CDDA if you want. That's perfectly valid. I mean, it comes along with the CD tech. They'd be stupid to ignore it. But does it improve graphics hardware? No. Does it increase or add processing power? No. Does upgrade the sound system?. Yes. Oouupp... it's different system then. Has a sound upgrade. ...."Le sigh"

It's like the that one french classic forum where members don't believe you that an Arcade Card is nothing more than memory upgrade. "How could an 8bit system move such big sprites around? It must have been a hardware upgrade." or "It increases video ram 'cause it's ram upgrade" or "It adds a co-processor".. etc.

[Rob2600]

Later we also got a Super Nintendo but it was somewhat of a disappointment. ... The SNES controller was totally lame for fighting games so we ended up going with Street Fighter II SCE and a Genesis 6-button.

Or you could've simply bought a six-button SNES controller. See Kevin Muldoon's posts above.

[Sosage]

I just want to say, the point about the controllers isn't a major issue. It's kind of dumb actually. Like I said in my other post, this is a potential minor example of Nintendo being out of touch with what the audience needed. Sega had the foresight to provide hardware for one of their biggest third-party titles. Actually, when you think about it, Sega had to release their own six button controller themselves. How are you going to have a platform that is going to officially support six buttons, but your only first party controller is only a three button?

Sorry. Point is. It isn't a huge blow in one direction or the other. It's minor in the grander scheme of the two platforms.

Also:



http://www.gamersgraveyard.com/repository/snes/peripherals/images/microgenius.jpg


Foul! That doesn't look like a 6 button on face controller. Unless you count that switch as a button.

[Ed Oscuro]

Nuh-uh. That's how many unique games were released between the US and Europe. That's not even counting Japan at all. Japan got nearly 1500 games alone, so if you add in the games that didn't come out in Japan, it should be well over 1500. And that's not counting Satellaview releases either.

That total does seem correct for worldwide Genesis releases, though, so in terms of which has more, I'd say at a bare minimum that the SNES has at least 700 more titles (an additional amount big enough to be its own large library for another system).
This is true, and I did know that. No excuse.

On the subject of controllers, the Genesis should take advantage of a huge range of Atari port pin-compatible controllers, but the SNES has a couple great sticks with metal casings, like the Hori Fighting Stick for the SFC, which has turbo switches for every button, and an arcade cabinet-style button layout on the face of the stick. It's better than the NES Advantage on account of a better joystick. I imagine it's not as good a stick, especially for twitch games like shooters and so on, as some of the specialized arcade sticks one can buy or modern Hori Real Arcade Pro sticks (if what I hear is true), but damn good for the money.

[j_factor]

Which moves did they alter? I played the arcade game religiously before it came out. The main reason I actually purchased the SNES was because of SF II (I for the SF II bundle).

Off the top of my head, I know they altered Vega's backflip move. In the arcade version (and most other versions) you have to press all three punches simultaneously. It wouldn't be as easy to press X+Y+L.


I think the argument that 6 button controllers were commonplace is weak. And I don't think they were commonplace anyways, certainly not in the UK. All the games I played on the Mega Drive was on the 3 button controller (which I liked).
(snip)
But we are moving away from the initial point. You are saying that the 6 button controller should be included because it was common place. The controller didn't even come out til 1993 in North America, 4 years after the console had been released.

Regardless, they were everywhere. I didn't know anybody who bought Street Fighter for Genesis and didn't buy a 6-button pad. At some point, I remember them not even selling 3-button pads anymore, I went to buy an extra Genesis controller and only 6-button ones were available. And eventually it became the pack-in controller, although they took far too long to do that.

When I got back into the Genesis (a few years after having sold it all off), I went to a local used game store to buy another controller, and they only had 6-button pads. I kind of wanted a 3-button actually, because Golden Axe II doesn't like the 6-button pad and using "mode" has always been a little finicky for me. The dude there said that they get the 6-button pads a lot more often. Nowadays I own multiple Genesis systems -- two Model 1's, a CDX, X'Eye, and a Nomad. All of them were purchased used online, except for the Nomad which I bought off a friend, and all of them came with a 6-button pad. To this day, I don't own a 3-button Genesis controller.

What difference does it make that it was four years after the system was out, anyway? That's when Street Fighter came out, too. If we were talking about the Playstation, would you say that the Dual Shock controller should be excluded from discussion because it took three years to come out?


Are you kidding. There were dozens of SNES joypads with 6 buttons on the face of it.

Sorry, I meant a first-party one.


I didn't say it *was* independent. I said how close it was from being independent. Which is pretty damn close.

I don't see how that's the case. You said a Sega CD would only need a video controller to be a console by itself, but actually it would also need another 68000 CPU, a Z80, a little bit more RAM, and two sound chips.

In any case, I don't see how "closeness" means anything. Either it is or it isn't.


Same with the 32x. Matter of fact, someone could rig up the 32x to be a standalone system.

How could you do that? As far as I'm aware, every 32x game (possibly excepting the 32x CD FMV games, I'm not sure how they work) uses a combination of Genesis and 32x graphics. If you had just the 32x, you'd only see half the game. In fact you can see that with a normal Genesis+32x setup if you disconnect the video crossover cable.


You're avoiding specific facts so you can include it as part of the Genesis system, and at the same time TurboCD doesn't count? You're in conflict with yourself.

I never said Turbo CD doesn't count. Quite the opposite! Turbo CD totally counts, just like Sega CD and all the other add-ons I mentioned. I only brought up Turbo CD because nobody seems to exclude it from Turbo discussions, and yet Sega CD is being excluded here. The only differences between the two are internal hardware details and the fact that NEC chose to phase out hucards in favor of CDs, whereas Sega did not go that route. I don't see how either of those have any bearing. Either add-ons should all count as separate systems, or they should all count as extensions of the systems they add on to. Saying that they are sometimes separate systems and sometimes not, depending on the specifics of the hardware involved and the strategy that the manufacturer had for it, just sounds to me like you're making up arbitrary rules.


Wow, I didn't know 6 button pads for Genesis were wide spread and common place when the SNES came out. I must have been blind. Sega must have been giving away 6 button pads with every purchase of SF2, as well. I mean, cause they were so common place when SF2 came out. Anyone who didn't already own a 6 button pad for the Genesis as soon as SF2 hit the streets, should have been bitch slapped :)

They were available as soon as Street Fighter was available (actually a bit before), and widely so. Bringing up the three-button controller in regards to Street Fighter is silly -- who the hell actually played it that way? Yeah, it wasn't the standard controller yet at the time, but they were standard-issue for Street Fighter fans.

[Kevin Muldoon]

Foul! That doesn't look like a 6 button on face controller. Unless you count that switch as a button.

haha I didn't even notice that before :) That's what happens when you google something too quickly!


Off the top of my head, I know they altered Vega's backflip move. In the arcade version (and most other versions) you have to press all three punches simultaneously. It wouldn't be as easy to press X+Y+L.


I assume you are referring to SFII turbo but this isn't true. You had to push all three buttons. Feel free to double check this with any snes move lists out (http://uk.faqs.ign.com/articles/582/582824p1.html) there. The fact is, the SNES games were as close to arcade perfect as you could get at the time. All the moves were included, none were removed. Look back at any of your gaming magazines at the time and I'm 100% sure they will stay the same.



Regardless, they were everywhere. I didn't know anybody who bought Street Fighter for Genesis and didn't buy a 6-button pad. At some point, I remember them not even selling 3-button pads anymore, I went to buy an extra Genesis controller and only 6-button ones were available. And eventually it became the pack-in controller, although they took far too long to do that.

When I got back into the Genesis (a few years after having sold it all off), I went to a local used game store to buy another controller, and they only had 6-button pads. I kind of wanted a 3-button actually, because Golden Axe II doesn't like the 6-button pad and using "mode" has always been a little finicky for me. The dude there said that they get the 6-button pads a lot more often. Nowadays I own multiple Genesis systems -- two Model 1's, a CDX, X'Eye, and a Nomad. All of them were purchased used online, except for the Nomad which I bought off a friend, and all of them came with a 6-button pad. To this day, I don't own a 3-button Genesis controller.

What difference does it make that it was four years after the system was out, anyway? That's when Street Fighter came out, too. If we were talking about the Playstation, would you say that the Dual Shock controller should be excluded from discussion because it took three years to come out?


There was a reason why 3 button controllers for the Genesis became obsolete at the end, it's because 6 button controllers gave gamers and designers more freedom. This was the same reason the PC Engine Duo RX came with a 6 button controller (an upgrade from two buttons).

I won't go as far as saying the 3 button controllers were obsolete at the end but it was more practical to sell them instead of 3 button controllers as it would allow customers to play with more games.

The fact is, a lot of games didn't need many buttons. 3 buttons was more than enough for most genesis games. I'm sure the majority of snes games could have worked with 4 too. You only need to look at how useless the L and R buttons were in mario world to see my point.

With regards to the dual shock, it was an improved controller but it had the same design, same shape, same number of buttons etc.

Anyways, we could go on about this all day. I just think it's unfair to compare the snes controller to the 6 button Genesis controller as Sega only released that to negate the limitations of it's original controller and allow people to play SFII i.e. they had to release the controller in order for people to play the game.

[Icarus Moonsight]

How is it unfair? They were out congruently and became the standard, it's not like we're talking about a last ditch effort or anything. O_O For all that, I'd say that it's unfair to think it's unfair. LOL

[Kevin Muldoon]

it's unfair to think it's unfair

It is hard to argue with that logic! :)

[Zebbe]

Zebbe: tl;dr, right? Right? Did you not understand anything I wrote?

OMG. It's c-a-r-t-r-i-d-g-e s-p-a-c-e, man. What can't you understand about that? Did you also not understand the point where the Duo system was actually hindered by the minimal amount ram (even though it was a second memory upgrade), as well? So...by your same logic, any carts higher than 4megs is a hardware upgrade. I mean, it's no different - right? Cause ROM is used for graphics/sound. ......;>_>

It's best if you don't comment on the ram thing if you have no idea what it means in console context... and even more so, CD console context. Not everyone is a coder/techie ;)

I misread about the graphics/sound and thought it was as regular VRAM/sound RAM, but now that you explained to me that it was for "cart space", I get it. People usually have to explain anything three or more times to me before I get it, but you only had to do it twice, so you should be glad. Tom, you win this round, but next... !!!



Uhm... what? I never said the MegaCD didn't add any hardware. Actually, I REALLY quite said the opposite. So... how are they both the same, again? I also really like to know the point where the SegaCD format surpassed the cart format and became the dominate system and there were soo many more CD games than carts, etc. I must have been asleep. Sorry Charlie, but CDX != Duo. Sure, count CDDA if you want. That's perfectly valid. I mean, it comes along with the CD tech. They'd be stupid to ignore it. But does it improve graphics hardware? No. Does it increase or add processing power? No. Does upgrade the sound system?. Yes. Oouupp... it's different system then. Has a sound upgrade. ...."Le sigh"

I didn't say you said the Mega-CD didn't add any hardware, but you said the Turbo-CD games count to TG16 library because it didn't add any hardware. So by that logic, any Mega-CD game that doesn't use PCM or scaling/rotation and can be put on cart with just enough ROM can count to the MD library (like the games I mentioned). And by the same 100% not making sense logic, any SNES game that uses co-processors can't be counted to the SNES library.

I don't get why your arguing are built up in two parts, the no hardware update part and the CD taking over card format part. Really, why does the CD have to "take over" the cartridge format to count to the library? The last Mega-CD games were (in the three major markets) released until the same time the MD games were stopped being produced. I think it would have been different if the Mega-CD was dropped not soon after its release and the MD lived on several years. But to be honest the only thing that matters to me is that when you buy a system, you can count anything officially released to it as part of it (as it's intended), whether it's a game with co-processor, CD addon with arcade card, cart/cd-addon with hardware updates, modem, HDD, portable console linking, anything & whatever as long as the original console model can do this with the new equipment. So to me, the Laseractive can count the TG16 and MD libraries, but not the other way around. It's a complicated world we live in :D.

[Thrillo]

Off the top of my head, I know they altered Vega's backflip move. In the arcade version (and most other versions) you have to press all three punches simultaneously. It wouldn't be as easy to press X+Y+L.
Uh, pressing X+Y+L is dead easy on a SNES pad, but pressing a horizontal line of buttons is nearly impossible to do on a Genny 6 button pad. I would have to move my thumb and wrist in some weird angle to hit all three at the same time.

I never understood why people love having so many buttons on the face when there's plenty of space for other fingers to use them (SNES style). It's much easier to control button timing and pull off moves when you don't have to dance with your thumb. Plus, the SNES had the face buttons arranged in a cross, which REALLY works well for Smash TV: it's practically perfect. Even if the Genny version was new enough to have used the 6 button pad, it still would have felt awkward.

With all this being said, I like the 6 button Genny controller's D-pad far more than the SNES's, which is a shallow, mushy, vague-feeling, half-assed version of the amazing NES one (dozens of systems and 22 years later it's still my favorite!). I dunno why they changed it :( .

[chrisbid]

Plus, the SNES had the face buttons arranged in a cross, which REALLY works well for Smash TV: it's practically perfect.



oh cmon... perfect? that is severe adjective inflation. the cross is adequate, it gets the job done, but the best setup (save for using two arcade sticks) is to hold two controllers vertically like the NES and Genesis versions of smash tv.

in fact, the NES version of smash tv had the best control of the three... too bad the game had to be crippled to run on the NES

[tom]

the CX40 only has one button

[chrisbid]

the CX40 only has one button

did i miss something?

[BetaWolf47]

The L button on the SNES pad is not convenient when you need to use it with precise timing during heavy dpad motion. I don't know anyone who'd use the SNES pad over the Genesis one on Street Fighter 2 except for the instances you're using either Vega or Dhalsim. In fact, whenever we play any of the Street Fighter games on a new system, we always set Fierce Punch to R1/RShoulder and Fierce Kick to R2/RTrigger.

[betamax001]

I would play rather play Street Fighter II with the SNES controller, pretty much because i dont have a 6 button genesis controller.

[BetaWolf47]

6-button Genesis controllers are a heck of a lot more common than any kind of SNES controller with a similar layout. Not sure where you live exactly, but I guarantee you there's a 6-button Genesis controller in the wild within an hour of where you live.

[tomaitheous]

I misread about the graphics/sound and thought it was as regular VRAM/sound RAM, but now that you explained to me that it was for "cart space", I get it. People usually have to explain anything three or more times to me before I get it, but you only had to do it twice, so you should be glad. Tom, you win this round, but next... !!!

Hah! Victory! Mwa-hahahaha....





I didn't say you said the Mega-CD didn't add any hardware, but you said the Turbo-CD games count to TG16 library because it didn't add any hardware. So by that logic, any Mega-CD game that doesn't use PCM or scaling/rotation and can be put on cart with just enough ROM can count to the MD library (like the games I mentioned). And by the same 100% not making sense logic, any SNES game that uses co-processors can't be counted to the SNES library.

I don't get why your arguing are built up in two parts, the no hardware update part and the CD taking over card format part. Really, why does the CD have to "take over" the cartridge format to count to the library? The last Mega-CD games were (in the three major markets) released until the same time the MD games were stopped being produced. I think it would have been different if the Mega-CD was dropped not soon after its release and the MD lived on several years. But to be honest the only thing that matters to me is that when you buy a system, you can count anything officially released to it as part of it (as it's intended), whether it's a game with co-processor, CD addon with arcade card, cart/cd-addon with hardware updates, modem, HDD, portable console linking, anything & whatever as long as the original console model can do this with the new equipment. So to me, the Laseractive can count the TG16 and MD libraries, but not the other way around. It's a complicated world we live in :D.

This is a tougher point to argue. Because it requires most people to agree to set a threshold at what constitutes a hardware upgrade enough to put it out of the comparison league. And that's where things get messy.

32x: Very easy one for me. It might be part of the end of the 16bit era, but it's a distinct addon with very big differences. This one can be easily excused for the comparison, but it's weird that quite a few sega fan just refuse to. Their logic is, anything attached to the Genesis - is a Genesis product. This isn't so. It now becomes a new system. A Genesis 32x != a Genesis. It's a hell of a lot more than just a format change. It's a whole new system. And I mean I lot difference. The main code is running off totally difference processors. The primary video is complete and new. It has it's own audio system. Yes, it can access the Genesis hardware layer - but it's not really limited to how much it does. I could write a game that completely uses only the 32x processors, 32x rom space, 32x ram, 32x video controller, 32x sound. The only thing I would need from the Genesis would be the I/O mapped controller ports.

SegaCD: I personally view this the same as the 32x. This is a different system. You program this system entirely different. It has a slue of upgrade, including real processors, special FX ASIC chip, 8 channel PCM mod player chip, etc. It's much more than just a format change. Yes, some games didn't really take advantage of the ASIC chip or the new PCM synth - so where does that leave them. So do you make exceptions. I'd still have to say no, with the except of the 4/5-in-1 ports ;)

TurboCD: This was *mostly* a format change. Because very little was added to the base hardware. The system now got CD sound, but in the same process - it was also hindered by the small amount of ram. Kinda offsets the difference a little. On one hand, you got an upgrade and on the other you got a down grade. Until 1994 with the release of the arcade card. Then you got a fully working system. The arcade card puts it at, you got a format change and you got CD audio upgrade. When you code for the Duo, it's like 97% coding for cart format. The code itself. I know, 'cause I've coded on the system. When you code for the SegaCD, it's nothing like coding for a Genesis card.

And the exception that the all-in-one Duo replaced the hucard only system in Japan in 1991. That system was selling games until 1997. I think there were about 10-15 games in 1997 and 1 game in 1999. Even before the Duo came out, CD games were out numbering carts for the system. Like I said, it would be as if the Genesis CDX came in 1991 and replace almost all carts and was the dominate format from there on out. Even with the hardware upgrades of the SegaCD, it would be pretty hard to ignore such a monumental change of the base system. And I would have say, include the SegaCD. But that's not what happened. The SegaCD remained a separate system and was treated like a separate system by Sega. The Duo was not.

Anyway, that's my logic behind my arguments. For the TurboDuo, it's pretty easy to include it as part of the TG16 library without making barely any exceptions. If you plan on including the SegaCD as a valid comparison against the SNES, you're going to have to adjust just what where your threshold of exception lies for hardware upgrades. Especially since the SNES never got a CD unit or anything remotely similar. With the exception of starfox, the co-processor on SNES carts were used as a patch system to fix the performance issues that originally plagued the system. Later chips were uses as security *and* to compress rom space. It's easy to make an except for both. At any time, Sega could have upgraded the Genesis audio via chips on the cart. The audio lines are there. And that would be totally valid. Famicom had been doing it for years with its carts. At anytime Sega could have come up with a new more compact memory device/rom that required a special pass through cart because the Genesis couldn't natively read it, and said all new softs are going to be on this format for now on. And that would be totally valid.

:)

[Aussie2B]

6-button Genesis controllers are a heck of a lot more common than any kind of SNES controller with a similar layout. Not sure where you live exactly, but I guarantee you there's a 6-button Genesis controller in the wild within an hour of where you live.

I wish it was that easy for me. I've made countless trips to thrift stores, pawn shops, garage sales, etc. over the last several years, and I still haven't come across a 6-button Genesis controller. Tons of 3-button controllers with and without the systems, a few 6-button arcade-style joysticks, sure, but the only 6-button Genesis controller I own is the crappy Majesco one from my Genesis 3.

Not trying to make a claim that they're rare, but I wouldn't overestimate their abundance either. It would be interesting to know a ratio of how many 3-button vs. 6-button controllers were produced.

[Urzu402]

what about Super Castlevania IV vs Castlevania Bloodlines?

[fahlim003]

what about Super Castlevania IV vs Castlevania Bloodlines?

Enter: The can of worms.


Not trying to make a claim that they're rare, but I wouldn't overestimate their abundance either. It would be interesting to know a ratio of how many 3-button vs. 6-button controllers were produced.

I'd wager it's about 1,000,000,000,000 to 1 ratio of 3 button versus 6 button. I mean, I have a couple 6 button ones and have had chances to buy them on several occasions so who (http://horseball-us.org/) knows (http://www.british-horseball-association.btik.com).

[betamax001]

I have encoutred one 6 button controller once un the wild. I was thinking about buying it, but i couldn't justify it because i would only play it with one game VS the Saturn 3D controller (with NiGHTS brand new!) where i could play any game pretty much with it.

[Aussie2B]

I'd wager it's about 1,000,000,000,000 to 1 ratio of 3 button versus 6 button. I mean, I have a couple 6 button ones and have had chances to buy them on several occasions so who (http://horseball-us.org/) knows (http://www.british-horseball-association.btik.com).

Uh... what? I get the snark, but I have no idea what Horseball is or what kind of joke you're attempting to make with it.

Seems like a rather uncalled for attitude, though. I said myself that I wasn't trying to pass off my own experiences as the end all and be all of its rarity. I just felt like sharing my lack of luck in finding one, so it's just one example of someone not being able to come across them so easily. And I would legitimately like to know the ratio, not for the sake of some dumb SNES vs. Genesis argument but just to satisfy the curiosity of a collector. Sorry if you find that so irksome, but, well, isn't that what this forum is for?

[j_factor]

I assume you are referring to SFII turbo but this isn't true. You had to push all three buttons. Feel free to double check this with any snes move lists out (http://uk.faqs.ign.com/articles/582/582824p1.html) there. The fact is, the SNES games were as close to arcade perfect as you could get at the time. All the moves were included, none were removed. Look back at any of your gaming magazines at the time and I'm 100% sure they will stay the same.

I'm not quite sure what you're responding to, as I didn't say anything was removed.

Anyway, I did see that info on a moves list. Specifically, this one (http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/snes/file/588757/879). But then I went ahead and checked it out and it seems that it's actually wrong; it's like that in every version. So nevermind, my bad, etc.


Anyways, we could go on about this all day. I just think it's unfair to compare the snes controller to the 6 button Genesis controller as Sega only released that to negate the limitations of it's original controller and allow people to play SFII i.e. they had to release the controller in order for people to play the game.

That's true. But they did it. So it's all good. I think the 6-button controller is the proper comparison because that's how one normally plays Street Fighter on Genesis. Same goes for the PC Engine and 3DO versions, even though those 6-button controllers aren't super common like the Genesis ones. Just like, if a Playstation or Saturn game supports analog control, I'm not going to complain if its digital control mode isn't very good.


Uh, pressing X+Y+L is dead easy on a SNES pad, but pressing a horizontal line of buttons is nearly impossible to do on a Genny 6 button pad. I would have to move my thumb and wrist in some weird angle to hit all three at the same time.

You use your thumb? That didn't even occur to me as an option.


I never understood why people love having so many buttons on the face when there's plenty of space for other fingers to use them (SNES style).

For other types of games, I might agree. Like, The Lost Vikings is probably more comfortable on an SNES pad. But this doesn't apply to Street Fighter. Street Fighter controls with three punches and three kicks. The optimal design for that is two rows of three buttons. That's why the arcade versions are laid out that way.

[Zebbe]

This is a tougher point to argue. Because it requires most people to agree to set a threshold at what constitutes a hardware upgrade enough to put it out of the comparison league. And that's where things get messy.

32x: Very easy one for me. It might be part of the end of the 16bit era, but it's a distinct addon with very big differences. This one can be easily excused for the comparison, but it's weird that quite a few sega fan just refuse to. Their logic is, anything attached to the Genesis - is a Genesis product. This isn't so. It now becomes a new system. A Genesis 32x != a Genesis. It's a hell of a lot more than just a format change. It's a whole new system. And I mean I lot difference. The main code is running off totally difference processors. The primary video is complete and new. It has it's own audio system. Yes, it can access the Genesis hardware layer - but it's not really limited to how much it does. I could write a game that completely uses only the 32x processors, 32x rom space, 32x ram, 32x video controller, 32x sound. The only thing I would need from the Genesis would be the I/O mapped controller ports.

SegaCD: I personally view this the same as the 32x. This is a different system. You program this system entirely different. It has a slue of upgrade, including real processors, special FX ASIC chip, 8 channel PCM mod player chip, etc. It's much more than just a format change. Yes, some games didn't really take advantage of the ASIC chip or the new PCM synth - so where does that leave them. So do you make exceptions. I'd still have to say no, with the except of the 4/5-in-1 ports ;)

TurboCD: This was *mostly* a format change. Because very little was added to the base hardware. The system now got CD sound, but in the same process - it was also hindered by the small amount of ram. Kinda offsets the difference a little. On one hand, you got an upgrade and on the other you got a down grade. Until 1994 with the release of the arcade card. Then you got a fully working system. The arcade card puts it at, you got a format change and you got CD audio upgrade. When you code for the Duo, it's like 97% coding for cart format. The code itself. I know, 'cause I've coded on the system. When you code for the SegaCD, it's nothing like coding for a Genesis card.

And the exception that the all-in-one Duo replaced the hucard only system in Japan in 1991. That system was selling games until 1997. I think there were about 10-15 games in 1997 and 1 game in 1999. Even before the Duo came out, CD games were out numbering carts for the system. Like I said, it would be as if the Genesis CDX came in 1991 and replace almost all carts and was the dominate format from there on out. Even with the hardware upgrades of the SegaCD, it would be pretty hard to ignore such a monumental change of the base system. And I would have say, include the SegaCD. But that's not what happened. The SegaCD remained a separate system and was treated like a separate system by Sega. The Duo was not.

Anyway, that's my logic behind my arguments. For the TurboDuo, it's pretty easy to include it as part of the TG16 library without making barely any exceptions. If you plan on including the SegaCD as a valid comparison against the SNES, you're going to have to adjust just what where your threshold of exception lies for hardware upgrades. Especially since the SNES never got a CD unit or anything remotely similar. With the exception of starfox, the co-processor on SNES carts were used as a patch system to fix the performance issues that originally plagued the system. Later chips were uses as security *and* to compress rom space. It's easy to make an except for both. At any time, Sega could have upgraded the Genesis audio via chips on the cart. The audio lines are there. And that would be totally valid. Famicom had been doing it for years with its carts. At anytime Sega could have come up with a new more compact memory device/rom that required a special pass through cart because the Genesis couldn't natively read it, and said all new softs are going to be on this format for now on. And that would be totally valid.

:)

Looking at the Mega-CD, it CAN'T make a game without using the Mega Drive. And there is, I think, no 32X game (except for the FMV games) that doesn't use it (especially when it comes to sound, the 32X only has two poor PWM channels). In theory, the 32X has a lot of colours, polygons and processing power, but in reality it is very dependent on the MD (and I know you know this too :P). It was never meant to be a standalone system, it was meant to give an technical advantage against the SNES (which had many co-processors used in key games by then... Sega initially tried itself with Virtua Racing, but went the 32X route and we got VR Deluxe, among others instead of co-chipped games).

The SNES had its weak processor (this line is following the first bolded line in your post), the MD had a weak VDP (and to some, a weak sound setup, but I would blame it on the tools and the developers) and the TG16 a weak format. They all solved it with different ways. The Mega-CD didn't do much to the gfx weakness of the MD, but it added the scaling/rotation the MD lacked. The 32X added all those colours the SNES had. And the SNES had its co-processors, which were many, different and used in many key titles. They were used for much more than security and ROM space, just look on Wikipedia (or some other source if you don't believe it... I do in this case). Valid or not, I think all three systems solved their technical limitations in their own fair way, and as much as Virtua Racing and Star Fox can be counted to their respective libraries, Virtua Racing Deluxe can also count to the former. Since our opinions are divided like asses, I see no reason to continue beating this dead horse, unless you have some technical knowledge you simply must enlighten my mind with :P.

[A Black Falcon]

In my personal experience three button controllers are more common than six button ones, but both are pretty common. I see both kinds regularly. Not sure if I've seen the Majesco 6-button ones though, it's just the (much better) Sega 6-button.

... I saw a couple of interesting ones in some boxes one store around here keeps in the basement (they were up in the store because the guy was going through them), they had a JVC Genesis controller (from an X'Eye?) and a Sega 3-button turbo controller, with the turbo switches. Then there were some regular 3-button controllers and one 6-button one. Another store got in one 6-button controller and two 3-button ones a month or two ago. I picked up the 6-button one so that I'd have two of them, before I only had one official 6-button, one junky third party 6-button one, and one 6-button turbo arcade stick (official). I wanted another regular 6-button pad. :)

Oh, and when I got my Genesis back in '05, the controller it came with was the aforementioned official 6-button controller. The three button controllers may be more common, but around here at least 6 button controllers are definitely not rare. That's a good thing too, because the Sega 6-button controller absolutely blows away the 3-button one. Better feel, better look, better d-pad, more buttons... it's an amazing controller, and is probably my favorite controller ever that doesn't have an analog stick on it. Yes, even above the Saturn model 2/Japanese controller. :) It's so sleek and cool looking... it's my favorite controller o the generation for sure. The SNES controller is good, but not as good as the Saturn 6-button. (I'd probably rank the TG16 controller next, and then the Sega 3-button fourth... or maybe lower, I've never actually used the PC Engine 3 or 6 button controllers. :)) I think six face buttons is the best controller layout, no question. I prefer that to four face buttons plus two or four shoulder buttons. I prefer six face buttons and two triggers to either of those. (Thus the N64 controller and Saturn 3D controller are probably my two favorite console gamepads) Triggers are better than shoulder buttons.

[Kevin Muldoon]

With regards to the popularity of the 6 button gen controller. It was released in the UK but it wasn't hugely popular i.e. most people still had the 3 button controllers.

Perhaps there were more 6 button controllers than 3 buttons in North America but I doubt it as it was released in 1993, 4 years after the genesis was released. I know that the Genesis was still very popular during this time though I think it's safe to say the majority of units sold were before the release of the 6 button controller rather than after it (In the USA anyway). So unless most players upgraded their joypads, which I think is unlikely, most people would have owned 3 button controllers.

Sega did start selling the 6 button controller as standard instead of the 3 button one, which maybe explains why so many people see that in shops instead of the original one.

As I said, the controller was released in the UK but it doesn't seem to have sold as much as in North America.

[Mason P.]

I would love to get a sega Saturn model 2 controller modded for a Sega Genesis

[fahlim003]

Uh... what? I get the snark, but I have no idea what Horseball is or what kind of joke you're attempting to make with it.

Snark? Snerk? Potatoes? Tomatoes?
I'm just kidding around and the point of my post was mainly in response to the first quoted text, I guess it simply avalanched from there into your quote. No attitude either, hence a large problem with web dialogue: not being able to interpret tone of the speaker/writer.

I too would like to know the (actual) ratio but I made the gross estimate to show it might be a fruitless pursuit. Until I began looking, I had not seen any 6 pad controllers previously. Although since then, they seem to only pop up in game stores, rarely in thrift shops. I find this strange since being in Canada, things such as these are even more uncommon, yet based on your testimony and others it seems to be the opposite. Either that or I've been very fortunate.

[j_factor]

With regards to the popularity of the 6 button gen controller. It was released in the UK but it wasn't hugely popular i.e. most people still had the 3 button controllers.

Perhaps there were more 6 button controllers than 3 buttons in North America but I doubt it as it was released in 1993, 4 years after the genesis was released. I know that the Genesis was still very popular during this time though I think it's safe to say the majority of units sold were before the release of the 6 button controller rather than after it (In the USA anyway). So unless most players upgraded their joypads, which I think is unlikely, most people would have owned 3 button controllers.

Sega did start selling the 6 button controller as standard instead of the 3 button one, which maybe explains why so many people see that in shops instead of the original one.

As I said, the controller was released in the UK but it doesn't seem to have sold as much as in North America.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat, and Eternal Champions were quite as big of a deal in the UK. We went through a fighting game craze here, even though few of them during that time period were any good. Poor fighting games like Clayfighter enjoyed an unjustified level of popularity. You guys didn't have so much of a craze, if I'm not mistaken, and platformers were still all the rage there. Also, I get the impression that in general, the European market isn't as receptive to alternative/additional controllers. In addition to the standard 6-button pad, we had a huge litany of third-party controllers here, and I don't really see or hear about all that much from your side of the pond. For a while there, it seemed like every week there was a new controller of some sort on the market.

In any case (before I go off on too much of a tangent :p), that would explain the difference.

[Sosage]

This guy's school report is going to be AWESOME! I bet 90% of it will be about 6-button pads.

[Icarus Moonsight]

5 of 6 buttons could only hope. LOL

[Ed Oscuro]

I wish it was that easy for me. I've made countless trips to thrift stores, pawn shops, garage sales, etc. over the last several years, and I still haven't come across a 6-button Genesis controller. Tons of 3-button controllers with and without the systems, a few 6-button arcade-style joysticks, sure, but the only 6-button Genesis controller I own is the crappy Majesco one from my Genesis 3.

Not trying to make a claim that they're rare, but I wouldn't overestimate their abundance either. It would be interesting to know a ratio of how many 3-button vs. 6-button controllers were produced.
Personally I've got six-button Genesis systems out the ears (both controllers, and the Mega Jet / Nomads), but Bloodreign also had trouble finding one.

[DeputyMoniker]

Genesis does what Nintendon't.

Damn. I was rooting for SNES. Well, I guess that settles it, boys. Let's wrap this up. :)

[tomaitheous]

This guy's school report is going to be AWESOME! I bet 90% of it will be about 6-button pads.

Hahaha. But his auto parser isn't going to be much good to him. No many are using his formatted info he requested. All manual labor for him :D

[A Black Falcon]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat, and Eternal Champions were quite as big of a deal in the UK. We went through a fighting game craze here, even though few of them during that time period were any good. Poor fighting games like Clayfighter enjoyed an unjustified level of popularity. You guys didn't have so much of a craze, if I'm not mistaken, and platformers were still all the rage there. Also, I get the impression that in general, the European market isn't as receptive to alternative/additional controllers. In addition to the standard 6-button pad, we had a huge litany of third-party controllers here, and I don't really see or hear about all that much from your side of the pond. For a while there, it seemed like every week there was a new controller of some sort on the market.

In any case (before I go off on too much of a tangent :p), that would explain the difference.

Yeah, the Mortal Kombat series and the Genesis versions of Street Fighter II, along with Eternal Champions, definitely pushed the 6-button controller more than anything else. Other games supported it, but none of the other games that really needed the 6-button controller to be controlled properly came anywhere remotely close to MK and SFII's popularity. And given how awful playing them was with the 3-button controller, in the US at least lots of people got 6-button controllers. I agree that they're probably not more common than 3-button controllers, but they're not that far behind either.

If the UK didn't have the SFII/MK fighting game craze, that would definitely explain why 6-button controllers are a lot less common there.

[Thrillo]

You use your thumb? That didn't even occur to me as an option.

For other types of games, I might agree. Like, The Lost Vikings is probably more comfortable on an SNES pad. But this doesn't apply to Street Fighter. Street Fighter controls with three punches and three kicks. The optimal design for that is two rows of three buttons. That's why the arcade versions are laid out that way.
So you play it with three fingers on the abc/xyz buttons ala the arcade version? Never occured to me that some people use it that way. Using it that way makes my point moot, but in that case why not just use a full-fledged joystick?
Also, when I press a button on SNES SFII I know exactly what I'm pressing as L/R can't be mistaken for A/B or X/Y. The A/B and X/Y buttons feel very distinct from each other too (less so on the Super Famicom where they're all the same shape). On a 6-button Genny controller I'm not always 100% sure if I hit the right button, so I rely on memorization and intuition. And having the strongest attacks at the top of the controller makes sense and feels natural. But then again this is what I grew up with, so different strokes for different folks; maybe I should try out that 3 finger method...

[thom_m]

So you play it with three fingers on the abc/xyz buttons ala the arcade version? Never occured to me that some people use it that way.

In fact, it works great for lots of games, and not only SFII. I play Kid Chameleon like that, for example. Rections are a little bit quicker if you don't have to swap your thumb between the buttons. And it's more comfortable than it seems...


And having the strongest attacks at the top of the controller makes sense and feels natural. But then again this is what I grew up with, so different strokes for different folks;

Different strokes indeed, because I vehemently disagree with you. Since I frist played SFII on the SNES, I always wondered why in the name of crap they put the strongest attacks there - and I played the home version first.

To this day, I put the medium attacks at the top - the ones I use less. And, even after years of playing, The D-pad+L button combination still kills me...

[Kevin Muldoon]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat, and Eternal Champions were quite as big of a deal in the UK. We went through a fighting game craze here, even though few of them during that time period were any good. Poor fighting games like Clayfighter enjoyed an unjustified level of popularity. You guys didn't have so much of a craze, if I'm not mistaken, and platformers were still all the rage there. Also, I get the impression that in general, the European market isn't as receptive to alternative/additional controllers. In addition to the standard 6-button pad, we had a huge litany of third-party controllers here, and I don't really see or hear about all that much from your side of the pond. For a while there, it seemed like every week there was a new controller of some sort on the market.

In any case (before I go off on too much of a tangent :p), that would explain the difference.

Fighting games were huge in the UK, both in consoles and in the arcade. I remember the releases of mortal kombat, SFII, SFII Turbo, killer instinct were all huge events.

Platformers were popular too, but I doubt that it was any different from america or japan.

The UK had a huge selection of third party controllers. All gaming magazines were full of them and reviewed the latest ones every month.

[j_factor]

So you play it with three fingers on the abc/xyz buttons ala the arcade version? Never occured to me that some people use it that way. Using it that way makes my point moot, but in that case why not just use a full-fledged joystick?

A few reasons. The pads are cheaper; you can use a 6-button pad your normal controller for every game, whereas other types games aren't suited for a joystick; I don't like home sticks that much, because I feel like they need to be fastened down or I'm going to inadvertently throw it across the room.


Also, when I press a button on SNES SFII I know exactly what I'm pressing as L/R can't be mistaken for A/B or X/Y. The A/B and X/Y buttons feel very distinct from each other too (less so on the Super Famicom where they're all the same shape). On a 6-button Genny controller I'm not always 100% sure if I hit the right button, so I rely on memorization and intuition. And having the strongest attacks at the top of the controller makes sense and feels natural. But then again this is what I grew up with, so different strokes for different folks; maybe I should try out that 3 finger method...

Even using your thumb (which I wouldn't do with a fighting game), it should be easy to tell where you are. The XYZ buttons are shaped differently. Maybe I have giant thumbs, but when I press a button on a Genesis controller with my thumb, I can feel the edges of the surrounding buttons. Also, if you rest on BY, there's only one set of buttons to the left and only one set of buttons to the right.


Fighting games were huge in the UK, both in consoles and in the arcade. I remember the releases of mortal kombat, SFII, SFII Turbo, killer instinct were all huge events.

Platformers were popular too, but I doubt that it was any different from america or japan.

The UK had a huge selection of third party controllers. All gaming magazines were full of them and reviewed the latest ones every month.

Then you people are just crazy. :p

[jesus666]

I'm actually a bit surprised that the Mega Drive dominated in the UK, considering that some of the most hardcore SNES fans I have met are from the UK.Think through the logic of what you're saying, lets say you're living in the UK at the time, you've played and enjoyed many SNES games, virtually everyone at school is constantly bad mouthing the SNES and hating on the console stating that its childish, kiddy rubbish. This is the sort of environment that creates hardcore fans of anything LOL


Not 100% sure what you meant with this comment. But as far as fighting games go, the Snes wins hands down for Street Fighter II Turbo and Killer Instinct.I tend to think the opposite recently, and its at least arguable which was better. The SNES seemed to shine with certain specific fighting games whilst others, like Samurai Shodown suffered to bad ports, whilst the Mega Drive was more consistant across the board with most of its important fighters playing and looking good. Also, i'd easily rather take Yu Yu Hakusho over Killer Instinct any day and I don't think the SNES really has a 4 player fighting equivilent to Yu Yu out there.


The Mega Drive was very popular though I don't recall it ever being much more popular than the Snes. Most of my friends had the Snes so perhaps my view is skewed but I think Segas dominance of the region is perhaps overstated because it performed better in Europe than in Japan.It was around 3/1 in favour of Mega Drive, really in the UK that generation of gaming was a competition between the Mega Drive and the Commodore Amiga to be honest.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think Street Fighter, Mortal Kombat, and Eternal Champions were quite as big of a deal in the UK. We went through a fighting game craze here, even though few of them during that time period were any good.No, Street Fighter 2 was pretty much all consumingly huge here and I've got a feeling that quite a large number of people were playing on the 3 button controller at the time (I know I was, though only a kid at the time so I hardly had the money to go out buying new accesories) of course the magazines of the time kept recommending the 6-buttons and anyone who really loved the game probably picked one up.

The Mortal Kombats were also massive and popular, but not so much Eternal Champions or Killer Instinct, in fact Primal Rage may well have been more popular than EC and KI

I think there was still a bit of a miserly attitude going on around that time so buying accesories and add-ons apart from what was essential was not that popular. Also its good to remember that everythings always been far more expensive here than in the US.

[tom]

In the UK the Megadrive had almost a year headstart, or longer if I seem to recall. Sega done excellent advertising with the SMS in the UK (NES was a right flop in UK), so Sega managed to continue with up-to-date, cool advertising, whereas Nintendo did nothing except trying to forbid SNES specific gaming magazines....this kind of behavior doesn't exactly give you brownie points in the UK

[j_factor]

I think there was still a bit of a miserly attitude going on around that time so buying accesories and add-ons apart from what was essential was not that popular. Also its good to remember that everythings always been far more expensive here than in the US.

That's probably it then. I suppose that also explains the longer lifespans of many systems there, why you people bought games on cassette, and why so many computer games had their controls finagled to only need one button.

[Thall Joben]

SNES is the better system. I was a hardcore Sega fanboy and have to admit the SNES games really impressed me. Super Mario World, Demon's Quest, Dracula X, FFIII, etc.

That said, I still prefer the Genesis. The later 6-button controller was much better for games like SFII than the SNES one.

[Mimi Nakamura]

Mega Drive!!

I think the Mega Drive is suited to people who like skill based games, and the Super Famicom is better suited for people who like RPGs etc.

I'm not a fan of games that don't involve skill, so I would always choose the Mega Drive over the SFC.

[Zoltor]

Zoltor
30
SNES

I really can't even believe there's a debate about which one is better going on.

The gen is better to be compared with the NES, where the SNES is in a league of its own, with only the PS2 ever coming close to it(and that's only because it also played PS1 games as well). First before we get to why the gen doesn't come close, the butten config on the SNES is flawless, for every type of game, where on multiple occasions I found the gen controls annoying (aka to hit the correct button, when the game mechanics demand the utilization of all of them) to work with.

Well you heard of the Golden Age of gaming right, well the SNES "is" the Golden Age of gaming(a few systems cross through the era, but only briefly). The greatest collection of games are on the SNES, while almost all the other system can only claim a handful of greats at most. We have the Street Fighter games, Wizardry 5, alttp, you have the Breath of Fire games, Crono Trigger, the FF greats, Mario World, the Lufia games, the Actraiser games, exc. Then the greatest adapter componant ever made was also released, the Super Game Boy Cartridge(nothing beats being allowed to play your Game Boy/GBC games on a big screen).

Lol those are only a few of the great games released in the US, there's many more, and if you dare to do so, then you can count the Japanese games as well, there are so many great games, they can't be counted by people, you need a computer to keep track of all the greats, It's that massive(as I said the only thing that comes close is PS2, and that's including the great PS1 games as well).

[Rob2600]

Then the greatest adapter componant ever made was also released, the Super Game Boy Cartridge(nothing beats being allowed to play your Game Boy/GBC games on a big screen).

Interesting point:

SNES + Super Game Boy library

vs.

Genesis + Sega CD + 32X + Power Base Converter library

[Dire 51]

I like 'em both equally. Both have great games I love to play. And isn't that really what it's all about?

[Richter Belmount]

I think I am starting to love the genesis the more I struggle to find good games for the snes , the snes is a great system and all but I feel like the system lacks a certain variety. These days I always find myself importing snes titles or buying cart reproductions to fill the variety void you just cant get on a snes. When I look in the genesis catalog of games I always manage to find a title I never heard of thats great , there is just so many hidden gems in that collection of games.

Seems like at this moment I own almost every great snes game and takes longer to find something that interests me.

[chrisbid]

the butten config on the SNES is flawless,


adjective inflation gone awry

the four face button configuration is not optimal for fighting games.

workable... sure
flawless... what the hell are you smoking?





Well you heard of the Golden Age of gaming right, well the SNES "is" the Golden Age of gaming(a few systems cross through the era, but only briefly). The greatest collection of games are on the SNES, while almost all the other system can only claim a handful of greats at most. We have the Street Fighter games, Wizardry 5, alttp, you have the Breath of Fire games, Crono Trigger, the FF greats, Mario World, the Lufia games, the Actraiser games, exc.


the wet dream all-star game list of an RPG nerd. street fighter ii was the only pure action game on the list... and despite its sound and graphic shortcomings, the genesis version played better


had nintendo bothered to put a little more horsepower into the snes, it wouldve been the end-all-be-all 16bit system. they failed. nintendo figured pretty pictures and music were more important than gameplay, so you end up getting a library that is full of glorified graphic novels, with a sparse handful of mushy-controlled and slow-paced action games.

i like a good rpg as much as the next guy, but my love of video games stemmed from old school challenge. beat the level, beat the clock, beat the high score, beat your opponent. shedding a tear during a well orchestrated cut scene is not a proper barometer of a good video game platform. what the genesis lacked in on-screen colors and midi orchestras, it made up in fast paced and tightly controlled action.

[Rob2600]

had nintendo bothered to put a little more horsepower into the snes, it wouldve been the end-all-be-all 16bit system. they failed. nintendo figured pretty pictures and music were more important than gameplay, so you end up getting a library that is full of glorified graphic novels, with a sparse handful of mushy-controlled and slow-paced action games.

The Genesis had plenty of RPGs, adventure games, and strategy games.

Likewise, the SNES had plenty of action and arcade-style games. And I never felt like Contra III, TMNT IV, Super Castlevania IV, Final Fight, Super Smash TV, Saturday Night Slam Masters, Batman Returns, Magic Sword, Captain Commando, Super Star Wars, UN Squadron, Yoshi's Island, DKC II, etc. were slow-paced or had mushy controls.

[chrisbid]

The Genesis had plenty of RPGs, adventure games, and strategy games.

Likewise, the SNES had plenty of action and arcade-style games. And I never felt like Contra III, TMNT IV, Super Castlevania IV, Final Fight, Super Smash TV, Saturday Night Slam Masters, Batman Returns, Magic Sword, Captain Commando, Super Star Wars, UN Squadron, Yoshi's Island, DKC II, etc. were slow-paced or had mushy controls.

a lot of those games had slow-down issues, none of them were as fast paced as sonic or gunstar heroes.

and like i said, i have nothing against an rpg in of itself. what i dont like is how fans are apt to hold them as a measuring stick of a console library. seriously, play something else for a change

[Mimi Nakamura]

a lot of those games had slow-down issues, none of them were as fast paced as sonic or gunstar heroes.

and like i said, i have nothing against an rpg in of itself. what i dont like is how fans are apt to hold them as a measuring stick of a console library. seriously, play something else for a change

I agree!

Although I have a dislike for RPGs, in my opinion they are nothing more than interactive books with terrible stories that require no skill at all.

[tomaitheous]

had nintendo bothered to put a little more horsepower into the snes, it wouldve been the end-all-be-all 16bit system. they failed. nintendo figured pretty pictures and music were more important than gameplay, so you end up getting a library that is full of glorified graphic novels, with a sparse handful of mushy-controlled and slow-paced action games

Uhmm... the system was designed with the option of addition co-processor and such chips in mind. Why do you think static mapped area to the open bus is in every bank below $7f? It's specifically for that purpose. The add-on chips weren't an after thought, they were part of the design - when are where needed. *No* different than the mapper support for the direct video chip interfacing on the original NES/Famicom. They too weren't after thoughts, they were part of the design (video ram or video rom being on the cart and not the system - it was such an awesome idea that only arcade systems used and no other console did).

The SNES has an easy solution if it needed additional cpu resource. The Genesis has no such solution for its weak graphics (it does for sound via cart, but Sega never bothered with any audio upgrades).

[Thall Joben]

First before we get to why the gen doesn't come close, the butten config on the SNES is flawless, for every type of game, where on multiple occasions I found the gen controls annoying
Nintendo was farther thinking with the innovation of 6-buttons. BUT it's not flawless for every type of game. Trying to do the strongest fireballs or dragon punches in SFII was a little awkward while on the Sega it was easier.
Or worse trying to do a fireball with the L button.



Well you heard of the Golden Age of gaming right, well the SNES "is" the Golden Age of gaming(a few systems cross through the era, but only briefly). The greatest collection of games are on the SNES, while almost all the other system can only claim a handful of greats at most.
I always thought it was the NES that was the golden age? If the Golden Age was the 16-bit era, it was because of the opitions, variety and competiveness brought by Sega AND Nintendo (with Turbo/PC Engine as well).

But the NES alone had the biggest variety and number of high quality games.

[Valkrazhor]

a lot of those games had slow-down issues, none of them were as fast paced as sonic or gunstar heroes.

Two words: Rendering Ranger. The SNES is king for this game alone. Fast paced, zero slowdown, epic art direction, and better graphics than anything else out there in its era. Heck, it even trumps most Neo-Geo games in the looks department. It will make your SNES smile. I promise. It's worth every penny of its ungodly gouged up price which isn't so bad if you don't mind a loose copy. I recently picked it up and can hardly put the controller down even with my insanely short attention span. It's that good. I have never had so many "Oh my" moments in a video game ever. Watch the end of level 2 where you run to and hop inside your ship as the space station is blowing up behind you, and you watch it take off in all its rendered and animated glory. You might shed tears of joy.

The epic take off sequence starts at the five minute mark and beyond:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajDb8D3tjVg

I'm in love with the music on this stage. What a perfect fit. The background in this stage is nothing short of amazing either, especially when it scrolls up the tower midway through the boss fight. Plus this game play is so fast that the recorder can't even keep up with it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1sy9O0GtGk

These video's don't even do the game justice either. It looks leagues better in person. All of this done by a one man army named Manfred Trenz. I'm baffled as to why Nintendo didn't offer him millions or hold his first born child for ransom to program games for them.

On another note, what's the point of system wars? Can't we all afford to buy one of each? They're both nearly twenty years old for gosh sakes! It's really the only way to roll.

[Sosage]

On another note, what's the point of system wars? Can't we all afford to buy one of each? They're both nearly twenty years old for gosh sakes! It's really the only way to roll.

If you read the first post, it was for someone's school assignment. We started off well. Then someone decided to toss in some lame argument about controllers, which for some reason is the defining argument that will prove one machine's superiority. Now this kid's report went from an A+ to F- and he won't graduate. All because Nintendo didn't bother to release a first-party 6 button face controller. Thanks a lot Nintendo.

[Valkrazhor]

If you read the first post, it was for someone's school assignment. We started off well. Then someone decided to toss in some lame argument about controllers, which for some reason is the defining argument that will prove one machine's superiority. Now this kid's report went from an A+ to F- and he won't graduate. All because Nintendo didn't bother to release a first-party 6 button face controller. Thanks a lot Nintendo.

Nintendo. What a bunch of bastards. Why couldn't they foresee that most people would ignore the great 6 button face pad made for their Super Famicom by HORI and instead continue to complain that the first party one has only four face buttons?

For the record, the default Super Nintendo pad is optimal for most every game aside from fighters. For those one or two fighters worth playing on the SNES, invest in a freaking 3rd party pad people. Problem solved.

[SplashChick]

Two words: Rendering Ranger. The SNES is king for this game alone. Fast paced, zero slowdown, epic art direction, and better graphics than anything else out there in its era. Heck, it even trumps most Neo-Geo games in the looks department. It will make your SNES smile. I promise. It's worth every penny of its ungodly gouged up price which isn't so bad if you don't mind a loose copy. I recently picked it up and can hardly put the controller down even with my insanely short attention span. It's that good. I have never had so many "Oh my" moments in a video game ever. Watch the end of level 2 where you run to and hop inside your ship as the space station is blowing up behind you, and you watch it take off in all its rendered and animated glory. You might shed tears of joy.

The epic take off sequence starts at the five minute mark and beyond:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajDb8D3tjVg

I'm in love with the music on this stage. What a perfect fit. The background in this stage is nothing short of amazing either, especially when it scrolls up the tower midway through the boss fight. Plus this game play is so fast that the recorder can't even keep up with it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1sy9O0GtGk

These video's don't even do the game justice either. It looks leagues better in person. All of this done by a one man army named Manfred Trenz. I'm baffled as to why Nintendo didn't offer him millions or hold his first born child for ransom to program games for them.

On another note, what's the point of system wars? Can't we all afford to buy one of each? They're both nearly twenty years old for gosh sakes! It's really the only way to roll.

It looks good, but I don't really see why this would necessarily be better than Super Turrican.

[chrisbid]

For the record, the default Super Nintendo pad is optimal for most every game aside from fighters. For those one or two fighters worth playing on the SNES, invest in a freaking 3rd party pad people.

the word used to describe the standard SNES controller layout by the nintendo fangirl was "flawless". this is false, it is not flawless.




Two words: Rendering Ranger

an import only game released in late 1995? that is a reach




Uhmm... the system was designed with the option of addition co-processor and such chips in mind. Why do you think static mapped area to the open bus is in every bank below $7f? It's specifically for that purpose. The add-on chips weren't an after thought, they were part of the design - when are where needed. *No* different than the mapper support for the direct video chip interfacing on the original NES/Famicom. They too weren't after thoughts, they were part of the design (video ram or video rom being on the cart and not the system - it was such an awesome idea that only arcade systems used and no other console did).

The SNES has an easy solution if it needed additional cpu resource. The Genesis has no such solution for its weak graphics (it does for sound via cart, but Sega never bothered with any audio upgrades).

you are over-complicating the issue... you're talking about enhancing the graphics.

in video games, graphics are secondary to gameplay. in the 16-bit era, tight controls and zero slowdown were optimal. onboard graphic enhancement mappers do not address these problems on the snes. the genesis had less controller latency and less slowdown in action games.





On another note, what's the point of system wars? Can't we all afford to buy one of each? They're both nearly twenty years old for gosh sakes! It's really the only way to roll.

for me its an issue of defending the genesis from people that only like the snes. i like both, and can see the advantages of both. stupid comments like this annoy the crap out of me


where the SNES is in a league of its own

if you notice, not once did i ever make the claim the genesis was heads and shoulders above the snes. 99% of the time, people that make that claim draw that conclusion from graphics, sound and rpgs. they completely ignore more subtle things like gameplay, control, and home arcade experience. these more subtle details are why people play classic video games in the first place. who cares about 1990s graphics when flash games on facebook can outdo them? the subtlties take over.

[Mimi Nakamura]

Two words: Rendering Ranger. The SNES is king for this game alone. Fast paced, zero slowdown, epic art direction, and better graphics than anything else out there in its era. Heck, it even trumps most Neo-Geo games in the looks department. It will make your SNES smile. I promise. It's worth every penny of its ungodly gouged up price which isn't so bad if you don't mind a loose copy. I recently picked it up and can hardly put the controller down even with my insanely short attention span. It's that good. I have never had so many "Oh my" moments in a video game ever. Watch the end of level 2 where you run to and hop inside your ship as the space station is blowing up behind you, and you watch it take off in all its rendered and animated glory. You might shed tears of joy.

The epic take off sequence starts at the five minute mark and beyond:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajDb8D3tjVg

I'm in love with the music on this stage. What a perfect fit. The background in this stage is nothing short of amazing either, especially when it scrolls up the tower midway through the boss fight. Plus this game play is so fast that the recorder can't even keep up with it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1sy9O0GtGk

These video's don't even do the game justice either. It looks leagues better in person. All of this done by a one man army named Manfred Trenz. I'm baffled as to why Nintendo didn't offer him millions or hold his first born child for ransom to program games for them.

On another note, what's the point of system wars? Can't we all afford to buy one of each? They're both nearly twenty years old for gosh sakes! It's really the only way to roll.

Rendering Ranger is a barely average game. The graphics are very amateur and the gameplay is poor. I'm not crazy enough to own it, but I know someone who does and I've played it a few times. Not even half as good as Gunstar Heroes or Contra III.

You obviously don't have much experience of video games.

[Valkrazhor]

Rendering Ranger is a barely average game. The graphics are very amateur and the gameplay is poor. I'm not crazy enough to own it, but I know someone who does and I've played it a few times. Not even half as good as Gunstar Heroes or Contra III.

You obviously don't have much experience of video games.

Who are you? A snooty art critic?

I love when people talk down about things and give no examples. Especially when on top of that, they talk down to others for not agreeing with them. It shows a lot of intelligence.

As far as you not liking the gameplay in Rendering Ranger, fair enough. Maybe you have your reasons. Different strokes for different folks. Though by you stating that, especially without backing it up, I doubt that you even played past level two. Don't bother backing it all up now though because at this point I can care less about your input. I think its gameplay is superb. Near perfect balance and increase of difficulty as you progress. I especially love how all the different levels require the use of your four different weapons in certain sections. The boss battles are great, especially in level 5 where it throws not one but three bosses at you. When I bought it I was actually expecting the gameplay not to be as good as it is. I thought it would just be more of an eye candy fest than anything. I was pleasantly suprised.

If you don't like the graphic "style" in Rendering Ranger then I can understand that, but if you don't think its graphics are amazing from a technical standpoint then you are blind. That's like telling someone that The Beatles make shitty music simply because you don't like their style. Not feasible, just ignorant. You can acknowledge something is good without liking it. Pay credit where credit is due. To throw more salt onto your wound, it has zero slowdown. The game was programmed by a one man army and it oozes his passion and love for the craft. The attention to detail in the game is amazing and it feels epic every step of the way thanks to its amazing art direction. Its atmosphere is one of the main reasons I keep coming back for more. Calling its graphics/programming "amateur" is laughable. Do you know who Manfred Trenz is?

Oh sorry I forgot. Anyone who doesn't share the same opinion as you obviously doesn't have much "experience of video games". Now everyone, agree with anything "Grand Master of All Video Game Knowledge Mimi Nakamura" says from now on!

Judging from the egotistical end of your your last post, you take gaming too seriously and likely meditate day and night on how much of a "hardcore gamer" you think you are. You obviously don't get out much or laid for that matter. I'm suprised that you even have a friend to play video games with. Don't fret though, Gunstar Hero's and Contra III are both excellent on single player for all those lonely nights you must be having. You're right. Glad to see that you already picked up on that.

Why am I so peeved over a single rude comment? Because I can't stand elitist chumps like you who talk down to others for no good reason. It's much too common of a trend on the internet. Learn some manners and grow up. Hopefully you don't act like this in the real world.

Now bug off and stop playing with fire kid.

[Richter Belmount]

I like turtles

[Valkrazhor]

I like turtles

You just reminded me that I need to remember to pick up a copy of TMNT: Turtles in Time tomorrow when I go to my local game shop. Thanks dude.