NES Top Loader [Archive] - Retrogaming Roundtable

Zoltor

12-13-2009, 04:50 AM

So I've seen this thing a bit on the internet. Is it more reliable than the original front loading NES?? I'm reading mixed things about whether it has AV capabilities or not. Can anyone provide me with some of this info?

The "official" top loader yes(don't ever buy non Nintendo produced top loaders, they are chinese piece of crap top loader wannabes that don't work right.

In regular NESs the pins are easily bent, and when that happens, It's a pain in the but, to get it to work properly. Also when a game doesn't come on correctly while using the regular NES(aka, you get flashing screen of death), save files are easily erased(thus leading to the tripple save craze of the era, as when save files were deleted, it usually only delete two of them at a time).

With the top loader, you don't have the bent pin issue, thus you don't get the flashing screen of death(so even if the game doesn't load properly, it wouldn't delete saves).

Now the problem is, these were only in stores for a month or so, right at the end of the NES's life, so overall there aren't many out there(atleast nowhere near enough to go around, thus the min 100$ price tag you usually see them selling for).

A Black Falcon

12-13-2009, 04:59 AM

So I've seen this thing a bit on the internet. Is it more reliable than the original front loading NES?? I'm reading mixed things about whether it has AV capabilities or not. Can anyone provide me with some of this info?

A lot has been covered already. To answer the last question though, no, the official US toploader does indeed not have AV capabilities. However, the Japanese AV Famicom does. It looks pretty much like a Model 2 US NES, except without the bump around the cart port because the smaller Japanese carts don't need it. It also has AV out and uses the same AV out port that the SNES, N64, and GC all used, so you don't even need a new cable.

It's pretty unfortunate that the US NES 2 didn't have AV out, it's ridiculous that it was RF only after the first NES had AV ports on the side and the NES 2 didn't come out until 1993 or so, well after all other systems had AV...

Oh, it wasn't just on the market for a month, it was longer than that. However, it was quite late in the system's life (released in fall 1993, presumably sold until late 1994, when the last game came out), so it definitely is true that not too many sold. You do see them once in a while though, so they aren't EXTREMELY rare... just pricey. $100 sounds a bit much though, you can get them for less than that... well, if you find one locally at least.

As for the AV Famicom, though it's definitely the most awesome, best model of Famicom or NES there is, it's also really expensive, sadly.

SPAZ-12

12-13-2009, 05:16 AM

I have both the toaster and top-loader. Overall, I like the top-loader more (if only because it's "special" or "unusual), though I'm not sure it's a better product.

pros:
- No lockout chip (no flashing games)
- No ZIF socket (the connector lasts longer)
- Rarer (and is fun to show to non-gamers who have no idea what it is)
- Smaller (though you can't stack another system on top of it, which I used to do with the toaster)

cons:
- RF Out only
- Vertical stripes in the video (unrelated to the RF)
- Game Genie issue (only the top password works). I think there is a second compatible version, but I'm not sure.
- More expensive (due to rarity/demand)

There are mods to make it have composite out, so if you're into that sort of thing then you can replace the RF Out. Personally I'm against modifying old hardware in any way, so I just use the RF. Honestly, I think that RF is fine for the NES.

However, the vertical lines in the video might not be fixable. I've read about various methods by which people have been trying to remove the lines, but I don't recall ever seeing a 100% fix. Myself, I just ignore the lines, because they're usually not very distracting.

On a related note, in the more recent (well, around 2008 on) AVGN videos where he reviews a NES game, you can tell that he's using a top-loader, as those vertical lines are there, you just need to know what to look for. If you're not sure whether the vertical lines in the top-loader video will annoy you or not, check out some of those later AVGN NES vids and have a look for yourself--check out the Friday the 13th video, it's pretty apparent in that review.

As for the price, they are more expensive than the toaster, but they shouldn't cost an arm and a leg. I bought mine off of eBay, a bare console with a non-responsive player one port, for $10 plus shipping. One solder reflow later and I had a nice new top-loader.

DuckTalesNES

12-13-2009, 08:04 AM

Arasoi

12-13-2009, 08:37 AM

Hopefully this won't cause information constipation for a simple question, but a basic quality chart for video from old consoles is as follows, from worst to best:

RF
Composite Video
Svideo
Component (when encoded from RGB)
RGB

You will notice a large jump in quality from RF - composite video, I think it would be worth getting the A/V modded top loader over the non modded. Composite video is the best you can get out of an NES or Famicom without heavily modding the system.

Hope that helps.

jperryss

12-13-2009, 09:44 AM

I have both the toaster and top-loader. Overall, I like the top-loader more (if only because it's "special" or "unusual), though I'm not sure it's a better product.

cons:
- RF Out only
- Vertical stripes in the video (unrelated to the RF)
- Game Genie issue (only the top password works). I think there is a second compatible version, but I'm not sure.
- More expensive (due to rarity/demand)

There are mods to make it have composite out, so if you're into that sort of thing then you can replace the RF Out. Personally I'm against modifying old hardware in any way, so I just use the RF. Honestly, I think that RF is fine for the NES.

However, the vertical lines in the video might not be fixable. I've read about various methods by which people have been trying to remove the lines, but I don't recall ever seeing a 100% fix. Myself, I just ignore the lines, because they're usually not very distracting.

Regarding the GG issue, I think you may be confused with the SNES vs SNES2. The GG works fine in the NES toploader, BUT you need to find a GG adapter to make it actually FIT in the toploader.

http://www.atarihq.com/tsr/nes/gg.html

And the vertical lines are definitely fixable with a proper A/V mod. This guy (http://gametz.com/user/platinumfungi.html) modded mine (he goes by the name Rai on these boards) and the white lines are 100% gone.

TheCaptain

12-13-2009, 11:20 AM

I remember when this was released back in 1993 for only $49.99, I kind of wanted one at the time but my standard NES was working fine and I was gearing up to get a SNES that Christmas so I passed on it. A friend of mine has it and uses it instead of the classic NES console because the top loader is more dependable than the classic NES when dealing with longtime play and saving games properly.

I may still get one someday for nostalgic/collector purposes, but I'm fine with my classic NES and my Generation NEX, both consoles do the job perfectly fine for me.

-hellvin-

12-13-2009, 12:21 PM

Is the thing really that expensive anymore? With the flood of nexes and what not on ebay I don't see them going for much over 40 anymore...I didn't really look too deep into prices but it doesn't seem to hit what it used to.

DuckTalesNES

12-13-2009, 01:51 PM

Without worrying about this being moved to another forum (the what is it worth one or whatever) I saw it typically going for about $60-70 on the low end.

Raedon

12-13-2009, 02:09 PM

Buying a Toploader is more of a console completionist exercise. It's about as good as you get for uncommon NES items people will give you kudos for. No one I knew had one before the internet. And I didn't even know about the thing until the N64 was on its way out.

I've got some rare NES items but company never really cared about the bad games. Zelda or SMB in a toploader with a dogbone controller seems to be about the most interesting NES experience for people who have zero interest in collecting but had a NES as a kid.

I prefer a toaster for the AV and lack of the vertical lines but even with new pins the things will blink when the toploader doesn't have a problem with a dirty cart.

If you are going to a New Years party that you know will just be drinking with people who work all day and WoW all night bring an Atari 2600 or NES and some common games. They get a lot of use.

Jorpho

12-13-2009, 03:29 PM

The correct terminology for the "vertical lines" is "dot crawl", no?

Zelda or SMB in a toploader with a dogbone controller seems to be about the most interesting NES experience for people who have zero interest in collecting but had a NES as a kid.I was waiting for someone to mention the dogbone controllers. Apparently they're quite nice.

even with new pins the things will blink when the toploader doesn't have a problem with a dirty cart.Yes, I understood that it's not just the change in the pins that make the toploader superior, but also the lack of a lockout chip. Of course, to get that benefit you could always just open up a toaster and disable the lockout chip to clip its pins.

SPAZ-12

12-13-2009, 03:39 PM

misinformationRegarding the GG issue, I think you may be confused with the SNES vs SNES2. The GG works fine in the NES toploader, BUT you need to find a GG adapter to make it actually FIT in the toploader...

Yep, I got the two confused. I have both the NES 2 and SNES 2, which is probably why I got them confused. The Game Genie will still work with the top-loader without an adapter, it's just that once it's in, it's not very easy to get out (which I just confirmed for myself). That's ok though, 'cause Game Genies are for wusses!

shadowkn55

12-13-2009, 03:54 PM

The correct terminology for the "vertical lines" is "dot crawl", no?

Not in the context of the top loader issue. It suffers from a distinct vertical striping pattern. Getting the a/v mod will fix the issue if the correct amp is built for it.

Raedon

12-13-2009, 05:09 PM

The correct terminology for the "vertical lines" is "dot crawl", no?

No, dot crawl (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dot_crawl) happens with any composite video signal. You'll see it around sharp edges and is eliminated by moving to S-Video or a higher video format where the color channels are more separated.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c4/Crawl.jpg
Dot crawl

savageone

12-13-2009, 05:48 PM

I think it comes down to personal preference, personally I sold my top loader many years ago. When I initially got one (around 2000 or so) all the rave was about how they work so much better than toaster style NES systems. Long story short: They don't. A dirty game is still a dirty game and it is going to give you just as much trouble in a top loader as it would in a toaster.

One big thing I think the toaster has over the top loader is that there are no worries about abusing the pins with dirty games and what not. If you ruin your pins somehow you can just simply replace them since they are so plentiful and cheap.

The dogbone controller is fantastic and is my choice for playing with these days. Really great controller.

betamax001

12-13-2009, 06:44 PM

No, dot crawl (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dot_crawl) happens with any composite video signal. You'll see it around sharp edges and is eliminated by moving to S-Video or a higher video format where the color channels are more separated.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c4/Crawl.jpg
Dot crawl

That looks like my TV when I play SMB through an A/V cable.

Kitsune Sniper

12-13-2009, 07:16 PM

This also happens with crap Gamestop S-Video cables which apparently fake the S-Video signal or something.

Ed Oscuro

12-13-2009, 07:17 PM

moving to S-Video or a higher video format where the color channels are more separated.
You have the details incorrect. The problem is caused by the luminescence (how bright) or chroma (color) signals being misinterpreted for the other; it actually has nothing to do with "color channels." There is an advantage in separating out color signals so each has more bandwidth, but you don't get separate color signals until YPbPR component or RGB (another type of component video).

S-Video does not have separated color signals; its improvements are wholly due to luma and chroma being carried on separate lines. The extra two pins you see on an S-Video plug are ground pins for each of the signals.

By the way, here's a tip for S-Video cable users: When using an S-Video plug, only plug in the black S-video plug and the left and right audio channels (white and red usually). Don't plug in the yellow cable (if it has one) because your equipment may (theoretically) choose that video over the S-Video signal. It's not so likely to happen but it's a good reminder what you're actually using, and saves a few seconds and wear and tear when you're hooking it up.

It is actually possible to improve the video output quality with most composite RCA signals (i.e. one-plug video on the yellow plug) by using a comb filter, but it does this by adding the signal to itself with a delay, so it inherently introduces some lag. However much, I couldn't say. With a CRT set and a good comb filter this is probably much less than a modern LCD screen, but at the minimum you're probably looking at nothing less than multiple milliseconds (hundredths of a second). Not a lot of delay, but it starts to add up when you're using new equipment.

jperryss

12-13-2009, 08:58 PM

Thanks already for all of the great comments. I noticed a console on ebay that has already been modded to have an AV out so I was curious if people recommended things like that. Will there be any difference in visual/audio quality if I use a modded one with AV out as opposed to a standard one without it? I can use either connection with my TV.

I don't know jack squat about what the AV mods consist of, but from what I've read, SOME of them will reduce/eliminate the white lines, and some won't.

Is the thing really that expensive anymore? With the flood of nexes and what not on ebay I don't see them going for much over 40 anymore...I didn't really look too deep into prices but it doesn't seem to hit what it used to.

They're still a bit pricey and are pretty much the only way to go if you want a toploader with 100% compatibility. And the dogbone controllers rule.

Raedon

12-13-2009, 10:03 PM

You have the details incorrect. The problem is caused by the luminescence (how bright) or chroma (color) signals being misinterpreted for the other; it actually has nothing to do with "color channels." There is an advantage in separating out color signals so each has more bandwidth, but you don't get separate color signals until YPbPR component or RGB (another type of component video).

S-Video does not have separated color signals; its improvements are wholly due to luma and chroma being carried on separate lines. The extra two pins you see on an S-Video plug are ground pins for each of the signals.

By the way, here's a tip for S-Video cable users: When using an S-Video plug, only plug in the black S-video plug and the left and right audio channels (white and red usually). Don't plug in the yellow cable (if it has one) because your equipment may (theoretically) choose that video over the S-Video signal. It's not so likely to happen but it's a good reminder what you're actually using, and saves a few seconds and wear and tear when you're hooking it up.

It is actually possible to improve the video output quality with most composite RCA signals (i.e. one-plug video on the yellow plug) by using a comb filter, but it does this by adding the signal to itself with a delay, so it inherently introduces some lag. However much, I couldn't say. With a CRT set and a good comb filter this is probably much less than a modern LCD screen, but at the minimum you're probably looking at nothing less than multiple milliseconds (hundredths of a second). Not a lot of delay, but it starts to add up when you're using new equipment.

Just keeping it simple ... stupid.

Jorpho

12-13-2009, 10:07 PM

How exactly do you get RGB out of a NES, if you wanted to? Has it actually been done yet?

Raedon

12-13-2009, 10:14 PM

How exactly do you get RGB out of a NES, if you wanted to? Has it actually been done yet?

It doesn't work that way. The video chip is going to determine what you can and can't get. Not saying I know anything at all about the NES but the SNES system 1 could output RGB right out the back along with S-video. The little SNES couldn't output anything but component. You use a S-Video cable and just get blank screen and audio.

Arasoi

12-13-2009, 10:20 PM

It is possible to get RGB out of an NES or famicom, but it requires desoldering the PPU and replacing it with a PPU from a VS Duck Hunt or Tennis, or Playchoice arcade PPU, then amping the signal. The stock PPU does not have RGB, it encodes it directly into composite video.

Doing this can cause some interesting palette isues with certain games as they were designed to work with the original PPU. Odd stuff can occur with grays, whites and blacks. Most consider it worth it because of the very crisp picture quality, but I'd be lying if I said it wasn't a pain in the butt to get this mod done.

The smaller/SNES2 model of SNES can output RGB, but you have to tap it off the motherboard.

Ed Oscuro

12-13-2009, 10:36 PM

Just keeping it simple ... stupid.
Just getting it wrong. Nobody asked for a fairy tale, and it's not hard to grasp or explain the differences. You never know when somebody is gonna go all Anthony1 or Arasoi RGB nuts and need to know the difference. Also, shadowkn55's post (http://digitpress.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1653462&postcount=15) was the right answer to Jorpho's question; it's easy to forget or not have known about the particular issue on the Toploader and Jorpho wouldn't have mistaken the two (that last bit is a guess).

It doesn't work that way. The video chip is going to determine what you can and can't get. Not saying I know anything at all about the NES but the SNES system 1 could output RGB right out the back along with S-video. The little SNES couldn't output anything but component. You use a S-Video cable and just get blank screen and audio.
You're right that the video chip determines what video outputs are available, but the video chip doesn't have any bearing in various SNESes on whether you can get various outputs, since SNES PPUs output RGB to be encoded elsewhere on the board. It's a mod, (information HERE (http://nfggames.com/forum2/index.php?topic=3414.0)), which certainly isn't as easy as a cable (and I don't like to do them i.e. pay for one and then figure out how to use the RGB output later), but on the SNES 2 you just pick up the RGB off the motherboard and fiddle with it elsewhere (either an amplifier or a resistor is likely needed, not sure). On the plus side the SNES 2 reportedly has better composite A/V out of the RCA jacks than the SNES 1 (I ought to look into this soon, but the SNES 2's composite is quite nice) - of course S-video beats both. The SNES 2 is probably the better console if you have a TV like ~75% of those I see at thrifts, which have RCA jacks but no s-video.

Icarus Moonsight

04-12-2010, 07:45 AM

For that composite dot-crawl, I find that a coaxial RCA cable can help it a bit. Still present, but less.

I've shelved my top loader this year. Might just mod it for RCA composite/dual-mono then sell it. I don't see myself using it anymore. When I did, I ran the RF to a DVD recorder and got AV off of it. Same as I used to do with my TG16.

With the toasters, you pop out the pin4 on the lockout chip, install loopy's Fami/FDS sound mod (one 47k resistor soldered to two pins on the expansion port, simple) and use a fami-to-nes adapter. After just those few simple things, you have a cheap version with the same functionality of the AV-Fami and a honeybee. Toss the PowerPak in there and you got an FDS/AV-Fami too.

Sure, you might have to fiddle with the 72-pin once in a while. But that's not so bad if you have a few units backing them up. Playability is uninterrupted and you can bend back them pins later when you have the spare time. Just in case that ever becomes a hassle (unlikely, but this is a contingency plan), I tore down the case on a Game Genie yesterday. Planning to wire the slot from it to a hacked off to the edge connector old 72-pin to convert one of the toasters to top load cart reliability. That will also be easily transferable between toaster units, since I'm soldering to the edge connector and not the board pins themselves. Since they are all working fine right now (all were blinky), I got time before it's needed. When I finally do that, I'll trim down to just two toasters (one for use, and a project/backup system) and cull the rest. I might try to RGB one of them... Haven't decided for sure yet. Seems expensive and the color palette issues bother me a bit. I can run them composite through an VGA box already. That might be just good enough.

Until someone figures out how to get expansion audio out of the top loader, it's not near as useful/beneficial as it was vs the front tray loader. IDK if it can run expansion audio at all... Being that the two middle pins on the systems cart connector are not present.