Frenzy ColecoVision prototype? Or master copy?

[ifkz]

I guess it's time to tell the forum about the most unique game I have in my collection: Frenzy for the ColecoVision.
A number of years ago now I stumbled across two ColecoVision carts in a thrift store: Destructor and Frenzy. Anyhow, I noticed right away that Frenzy felt heavier than Destructor and I knew that I might have something special. When I got home, I cut through the label to get to the screws and I did have a pre-production cart. It has three EPROMS, two with copyright 1984 Coleco stickers and one that is hand written.

I remember reading that Atari threw some of there pre-production carts into normal retail cases and sold them to the public. I think the article was here at DP, anyone have a link? I guess Coleco did the same. Does anyone have links to other ColecoVision proto finds?

It is not for sale or dump...I am sort of thinking of building a display frame or something for it. Any advice/opinions on displaying it?

[Tempest]

I've heard that some production CV games had eproms in them and aren't really prototypes. I'm not 100% sure if this is the case with what you have but it very well could be.

Tempest

[Wickeycolumbus]

I remember reading that Atari threw some of there pre-production carts into normal retail cases and sold them to the public. I think the article was here at DP, anyone have a link?

I believe you read that on Hozer Video Games' site. This is not true, he made a false assumption.

As for the coleco cart, Tempest is correct, some games did use EPROMs. In order to tell for sure if it is a prototype or not, you would need to post a picture.

[norkusa]

I've got a SubRoc cartridge that's like that. Just looks like a normal cartridge but twice as heavy. I think I posted a question about it here or on AA a while ago and someone said that it's not unheard of to get CV production cartridges with eproms in them.

[BeaglePuss]

I know it's a different platform, but I have four retail NES games with EPROMs in them. It appears as though they were factory fixes. Some of printed labels covering the windows, while others have hand-written labels.

If you were to see the pcbs by themselves you would think that they were prototypes/pre-productions. Having taken them out of the carts myself I know otherwise.

[Supergun]

I've got a SubRoc cartridge that's like that. Just looks like a normal cartridge but twice as heavy. I think I posted a question about it here or on AA a while ago and someone said that it's not unheard of to get CV production cartridges with eproms in them.


I bought a colecovision sub roc cartridge at a game store recently just because it was there and when I got home I compared the weight of the cartridge to my own and it was indeed heavier. Upon closer carefull inspection, I could tell it had eproms rather then roms and so I opened it up and surely enough same deal as what you describe.

I do have some questions that I would like to ask though and hopefully I can get some good answers here.

1) the boards inside production Atari cartridges support ROMS and as such since the pin outs on those ROMS and EPROMS are incompatible, they are not swappable. (not counting lots of time & labor cutting traces, running jumpers, installing hex ic's etc.) but are the boards inside production ColecoVision cartridges different? In other words, do they support BOTH ROMS & EPROMS?

2) If the answer above is YES, they are 100% compatible, then I agree that there is nothing really special about these production carts which contain eproms. (other then the "value" of recycling eproms for projects). If the answer above is NO, then by any loose definition of the word "proto", those eprom populated boards are indeed prototypes, and at the very least would have more value as they can be repopulated with newly programmed eproms of other non released proto games.

I ask as this would incidentally be my future intention for this subroc cartridge and all others I find in the wild as it is far less expensive buying extra colecovision carts at a dollar or so a piece in the wild, rather then using pixelspast or whatever to purchase the boards, the eproms, the cartridge shells, plus shipping...makes sense no?)

Feedback Please,
Thanks,
Billy

[Wickeycolumbus]

I bought a colecovision sub roc cartridge at a game store recently just because it was there and when I got home I compared the weight of the cartridge to my own and it was indeed heavier. Upon closer carefull inspection, I could tell it had eproms rather then roms and so I opened it up and surely enough same deal as what you describe.

I do have some questions that I would like to ask though and hopefully I can get some good answers here.

1) the boards inside production Atari cartridges support ROMS and as such since the pin outs on those ROMS and EPROMS are incompatible, they are not swappable. (not counting lots of time & labor cutting traces, running jumpers, installing hex ic's etc.) but are the boards inside production ColecoVision cartridges different? In other words, do they support BOTH ROMS & EPROMS?

2) If the answer above is YES, they are 100% compatible, then I agree that there is nothing really special about these production carts which contain eproms. (other then the "value" of recycling eproms for projects). If the answer above is NO, then by any loose definition of the word "proto", those eprom populated boards are indeed prototypes, and at the very least would have more value as they can be repopulated with newly programmed eproms of other non released proto games.

I ask as this would incidentally be my future intention for this subroc cartridge and all others I find in the wild as it is far less expensive buying extra colecovision carts at a dollar or so a piece in the wild, rather then using pixelspast or whatever to purchase the boards, the eproms, the cartridge shells, plus shipping...makes sense no?)

Feedback Please,
Thanks,
Billy

Actually, the mask ROMs Atari used in their 2600 carts are the same pinout as a 2532 EPROM. Using an EPROM on original Atari boards only requires an inverter to invert the chip select (A12) line. I am not sure about Coleco carts.

I do know that it was not uncommon for production games to use EPROMs though. I wouldn't consider these carts to be special or worth more than a standard cart. Mask ROMs (production ROMs) are very costly to produce, and are only economical in large volumes. EPROMs could have been used to rush the game out faster, or if sales were not expected to be very high.

[Supergun]

Actually, the mask ROMs Atari used in their 2600 carts are the same pinout as a 2532 EPROM. Using an EPROM on original Atari boards only requires an inverter to invert the chip select (A12) line. I am not sure about Coleco carts.

I do know that it was not uncommon for production games to use EPROMs though. I wouldn't consider these carts to be special or worth more than a standard cart. Mask ROMs (production ROMs) are very costly to produce, and are only economical in large volumes. EPROMs could have been used to rush the game out faster, or if sales were not expected to be very high.


Right, but the Atari boards require more then just "plug & play" regarding the removal of the rom and placing an eprom in its place. You can't just remove the 2Kb rom from a combat cartridge, burn a 2Kb eprom (2716) with Polo for example and simply solder it in and wala, you turn trash into treasure. But with regards to ColecoVision games, is it the same or not?

In regards to say for example, a ColecoVision Sub Roc cartridge containing eproms rather then roms, (maybe the first batches off the assembly lines used eproms before they switched over to roms), but never the less, can you simply remove those eproms, program another game, and repopulate the board and wala, build a playable cartridge for your collection of an unreleased proto from the system.

[Wickeycolumbus]

.

can you simply remove those eproms, program another game, and repopulate the board and wala, build a playable cartridge for your collection of an unreleased proto from the system.

Yes.

[stonic]

I remember reading that Atari threw some of there pre-production carts into normal retail cases and sold them to the public. I think the article was here at DP, anyone have a link?


I believe you read that on Hozer Video Games' site. This is not true, he made a false assumption.

Is this the article?
http://hozervideo.net/atari/docs/protos.html

If so, Wickey is correct. Those aren't prototypes but rather COBs (chip-on-board - http://www.pcmag.com/encyclopedia_term/0,2542,t=chip+on+board&i=39643,00.asp) or SMT (surface mount technology). They were cheaper and faster to manufacture than ROM chips. Most of the re-released carts (1986-88) used these. I recently opened about 2 dozen Atari carts and 6 of them were CIBs.

[BeaglePuss]

The TS mentioned that the cart had EPROMs though, and none of those carts have EPROMs present.

Here are some production game boards that I removed from various NES cartridges over the years. Each board has an EPROM present, and are most likely the result of a factory-fix.

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j204/beaglepussband/stupid%20shit/100_1696-1.jpg

My guess is the TS has something similar.

[Wickeycolumbus]

The TS mentioned that the cart had EPROMs though, and none of those carts have EPROMs present.


ifkz mentioned that he had heard that Atari sold their pre-production games in standard release carts. I told him that this was not true, and he was probably talking about Hozer's article about 'glob top' ROMs, to which stonic posted a link. Hozer thought this was true because he had seen unreleased games on a similar PCB (Dukes of Hazzard for example). The PCBs pictured in stonic's post are what Hozer was talking about and are not prototypes.


I believe ifkz and Supergun are talking about something like this:

http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/133626-my-latest-prototype-finds%3B-colecovision-stuff/

[stonic]

Hozer thought this was true because he had seen unreleased games on a similar PCB (Dukes of Hazzard for example). The PCBs pictured in stonic's post are what Hozer was talking about and are not prototypes.

I explained that to Hozer and here's the response I got:


The ones I am calling prototypes came right out of real, bonefide
dye-in-the-wool lab loaner and prototype scrappings. I got them
directly from an Atari employee waaaaaaaaay back in the mid to late
1980's, and a second batch from another guy I went to church with in the
early 90's. The only one pictured that is not in its case is the Jungle
Hunt, I took it out to talk a pic of it because it is unique and I have
never seen another one like it. SADLY I peeled the labels off the older
ones (the dukes, peek-a-boo, and I think grover) so I could put hozer
labels on them. Whoops! Who would have thought they would ever be
valuable.... same with the Spectravision dev kit I had but kept the
protos from, which included CTCW and Nexar.

say whatever you want, my grover and dukes of hazzard boards are
prototypes! I am not saying ALL boards made that way are, but these
most definitely are (unless you have for instance a Dukes released cart,
which I have never seen or heard of! <smile!>) Some of my other protos
are made this way too. Makes it easy to prove they are legit, since no
one I know of can make games in this way at home.

Randy

The only Lab Loaner proto I've seen with a COB pcb was Dukes of Hazzard, which I got from Best Electronics years ago. I never saw any others though, has anyone? I don't known if Atari started experimenting with making prototypes using COBs instead of EPROMS, perhaps for several reasons (EPROMS were still relatively expensive back them, and it was easier to pull (steal) the information off of them that it was COBs). What I do know is, when I interviewed the programmer of DoH, Mark Hahn, he mentioned Atari cancelled Dukes of Hazzard before he finished programming it. But since Atari apparently produced several (dozens? hundred?) copies of the game, was it truly a prototype (and thus the 1st confirmed instance of a COB being used for testing purposes), or was Atari really going to release an unfinished game? And if they weren't intended to be sold, why use a COB over EPROMS?

[Vectorman0]

I explained that to Hozer and here's the response I got:



The only Lab Loaner proto I've seen with a COB pcb was Dukes of Hazzard, which I got from Best Electronics years ago. I never saw any others though, has anyone?

I asked AtariAge about what I thought was a fake Quadrun lab loaner on ebay a few months ago. It turns out it was "fake" in that it wasn't a lab loaner made up at Atari HQ, but made at Best Electronics with their reproduction lab loaner labels from a real PCB that came from Atari. Allegedly, the Quadrun PCB's in these Best Electronics carts have a different ROM compared to the officially released version. I think it's likely that it's COB. http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/150286-fake-quadrun-lab-loaner/

[stonic]

There was a link to another thread that showed the pcb inside one of them, and it has a standard ROM chip. Someone else stated he had a similar prototype but that his version had "Woita Wave", which is different from the released version.. but he never posted any pics of it.

[ifkz]

A picture is worth a thousand words
The bottom Eprom is hand labled
The top two say #2,#3 Frenzy 1983 Coleco
The bottom one is handwritten R-11082 9405-1

[ifkz]

Didn't attach, 2nd try!

[Wickeycolumbus]

A picture is worth a thousand words
The bottom Eprom is hand labled
The top two say #2,#3 Frenzy 1983 Coleco
The bottom one is handwritten R-11082 9405-1

Looks exactly to the ones I linked to...

http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic/133626-my-latest-prototype-finds%3B-colecovision-stuff/

Just production games that happen to use EPROMs.