Recommend Action RPG Games

[johnrite]

I'm playing Borderlands at the moment with a friend and am loving it!

But I need another game to play single player so what would people suggest in the Action RPG niche?

Gears of war is another one of my favorites because of the game-play but doesn't have the RPG aspect... Also just finished splinter cell and am looking forward to the next due to the strategy involved... can be frustrating sometimes though!

I used to be into fantasy type games like Diablo but haven't found any to be all that great on 360... yet...

[j1e]

This game came into mind when I saw this topic:

Ys: The Ark of Napishtim

Great, overlooked Action RPG for the PS2.

[Rickstilwell1]

Alundra 1 & 2 for Playstation 1
The Ys series
King's Field series (1st Person action RPG) for Playstation 1 & 2
Mana series
Zelda series (if Alundra is action RPG, how is Zelda not? Zelda 2 has more RPG elements though)
Baldur's Gate Dark Alliance 1 & 2
Champions of Norrath
X-Men Legends 1 & 2
Marvel Ultimate Alliance 1 & 2
Golvellius & Golden Axe Warrior on Sega Master System
Faxanadu for NES
Dragon Ball Z RPGs for Game Boy Advance - Legacy of Goku 1 & 2 + Buu's Fury

just off the top of my head

[Zoltor]

I'm playing Borderlands at the moment with a friend and am loving it!

But I need another game to play single player so what would people suggest in the Action RPG niche?

Gears of war is another one of my favorites because of the game-play but doesn't have the RPG aspect... Also just finished splinter cell and am looking forward to the next due to the strategy involved... can be frustrating sometimes though!

I used to be into fantasy type games like Diablo but haven't found any to be all that great on 360... yet...

Omg get Crystalis(NES), It's the greatest Action/RPG ever made(Willow, and Faria are good choices as well for the NES). Secret of Mana is great for the SNES(Secret of Evermore is pretty good too, however It's pretty short).

[bunnybum]

+1 for the Alundra games. I spent an insane amount of time playing those.

[Zoltor]

Alundra 1 & 2 for Playstation 1
The Ys series
King's Field series (1st Person action RPG) for Playstation 1 & 2
Mana series
Zelda series (if Alundra is action RPG, how is Zelda not? Zelda 2 has more RPG elements though)
Baldur's Gate Dark Alliance 1 & 2
Champions of Norrath
X-Men Legends 1 & 2
Marvel Ultimate Alliance 1 & 2
Golvellius & Golden Axe Warrior on Sega Master System
Faxanadu for NES
Dragon Ball Z RPGs for Game Boy Advance - Legacy of Goku 1 & 2 + Buu's Fury

just off the top of my head

Actually Link really is a "Action/RPG"/Platformer, so people shouldn't be saying otherwise(however all the other Zelda games are Action/Adventure)

[allyourblood]

If we're talking classic/retro games, add Crusader of Centy for the Genesis (depending on your definition of an "RPG"). Wonderful Zelda clone that's charming and a lot of fun to play. New stuff? A couple obvious choices would be Oblivion and Fallout 3. Spend 3-4 hours getting yourself "cemented" in their worlds, and you'll quickly lose all track of time.

[Arkhan]

How about Landstalker for Genesis
Record of Lodoss War for Dreamcast
Arcus Odyssey for genesis (maybe)
Popful Mail (TGCD or Sega CD version only)
Magic Knight Rayearth (saturn)
Battle of Olympus (NES)

and yes, Alundra. The first one more than the second one. Second one was kinda lurpy.

[BetaWolf47]

Magic of Scheherazade (NES) is an amazing game.

[Arkhan]

Magic of Scheherazade (NES) is an amazing game.

! DUDE!

I was literally just playing this before I got back on here to check for updates!

It is one of the greatest hidden gems on the NES.

I'm very fond of the music in that game

[pocketgamer]

Tales of Destiny a second player can control another character while your battling it out with your enemies. Also Secret of mana and Tales of Destiny II. All good RPgs.

[Gentlegamer]

Mass Effect

[123►Genei-Jin]

Legend of Oasis
Beyond Oasis

really love those 2

[timewarpgamer]

Ys: Book I & II for the TurboGrafx-CD.

[NerdXCrewWill]

I just want to say that Popful Mail for the Sega CD is absolutely brilliant. While the Turbo CD version is cool, you totally miss out of the amazing voice acting. Honestly, it features probably the second best voice acting in a video game ever. It's absolutely hilarious. I kind of like the older graphical style of the TCD version more, but you cannot miss the voices in the talkie version. Popful Mail isn't a level-building RPG though.

Outside of those mentioned already, I propose Kickmaster (NES), Rambo (NES), the Castlevania RPGs, the Seiken Densetsu series, the Brandish series, and the Exile series (TCD). Really, there are way too many action RPGs to list. The Ys series is probably the best. For less RPG-like (no stat-building) action-adventure titles, check out the Wonderboy series and others of that ilk. The Master System, Turbografx, and Turbo CD are all homes to great side scrolling adventure games! While a game like Legacy of the Wizard has no levelling, it is vastly superior to most games you'll ever play.

[Arkhan]

Yes, Legacy of the Wizard/DSIV is one hell of a game.


The map alone is X_x


It's a very unique game, and shouldn't be treated like a mario game!

Some people do that and go THIS SUCKS I CANT BEAT IT

[Dirkfunk]

Neutopia
Crusader of Centy
Crystalis
Any of the Zelda games up to the Gamecube (Sorry, I hated Wind Waker).

I haven't played it yet, but I hear Sacred 2 is a pretty good Diablo style game on the 360.

[jdc]

I just began the newest Star Ocean on the 360.......and since this is the retro forums, I'd suggest the Star Ocean game that is available for the PSX, or the two re-isssues on the PSP.

[Aussie2B]

Yes, Legacy of the Wizard/DSIV is one hell of a game.


The map alone is X_x


It's a very unique game, and shouldn't be treated like a mario game!

Some people do that and go THIS SUCKS I CANT BEAT IT

Legacy of the Wizard sucks... my will to live, that is. I beat the game, using a fair deal of outside help to combat the stupidly random shit that a player would NEVER figure out unless by pure dumb luck, and while it was fairly fun getting the crowns with the dog and girl, once I was doing the quests with the parents, the game was only making me depressed and hating myself for playing it. It's a damn shame too because it has the makings of a good game, if only the programming was cleaned up and the illogically dumb design choices were altered. At least I got to hear a great Yuzo Koshiro soundtrack while suffering through it.

[Sniderman]

I highly recommend Darkstone for the PSX. It was budget release late in the system's life, but it's a surprisingly deep game.

[Steve W]

Phantasy Star Online for the Dreamcast/GameCube. There have been 'sequels' (if you want to refer to them as that) for the PS2, 360, DS, and PSP, but the originals are the best in my opinion.

Rygar on the NES was a good action platformer with an RPG element to it.

Exile on the TurboGrafx-16 CD was a more traditional RPG but had plenty of action to keep it from getting boring like turn-based RPGs.

[Haoie]

Good to see Ys mentioned.

Nobody knows about it, really!

[Arkhan]

Good to see Ys mentioned.

Nobody knows about it, really!

Thats because the masses are too busy playing Y's

lol


and as for LotW, alot of the "random" stuff, isn't random. It just requires exploration and doofin around to find everything! It was meant to be mapped out and explored severely.

[Aussie2B]

I'd say "doofin around" is a fair facsimile for "finding something by pure dumb luck". I'm all for exploration and mapping areas out, but when I'm expected to press against every bit of wall to discover which are fake, that's when I call foul. I don't mind the idea of hidden walls in games, but when the game gives ZERO clues as to where they are, whether they be visual, aural, textual, etc., then that's just bad design. Way too many adventure games of that era are guilty of this, but Legacy of the Wizard is far more infuriating about it, especially in that so much of it is required for progress rather than being for bonus stuff that isn't necessary. Same reason why I feel the second bonus quest in Zelda has crappy design, while the standard quest is much better. Legacy of the Wizard is like being forced to play Zelda's bonus quest as the normal game.

[pseudonym]

I'd say "doofin around" is a fair facsimile for "finding something by pure dumb luck". I'm all for exploration and mapping areas out, but when I'm expected to press against every bit of wall to discover which are fake, that's when I call foul. I don't mind the idea of hidden walls in games, but when the game gives ZERO clues as to where they are, whether they be visual, aural, textual, etc., then that's just bad design. Way too many adventure games of that era are guilty of this, but Legacy of the Wizard is far more infuriating about it, especially in that so much of it is required for progress rather than being for bonus stuff that isn't necessary. Same reason why I feel the second bonus quest in Zelda has crappy design, while the standard quest is much better. Legacy of the Wizard is like being forced to play Zelda's bonus quest as the normal game.

I guess you don't like Milon's Secret Castle either? Haha. I like LotW, but it's not really an action RPG I don't think.

Robotrek and EVO: The Search For Eden are pretty cool action RPGs.

[Arkhan]

I'm all for exploration and mapping areas out, but when I'm expected to press against every bit of wall to discover which are fake, that's when I call foul. I don't mind the idea of hidden walls in games, but when the game gives ZERO clues as to where they are, whether they be visual, aural, textual, etc., then that's just bad design. Way too many adventure games of that era are guilty of this, but Legacy of the Wizard is far more infuriating about it, especially in that so much of it is required for progress rather than being for bonus stuff that isn't necessary. .

So you are saying, you want visual/aural/text clues that tell you where hidden things are? That doesn't really make them hidden now does it? That makes it more like a toddler-toy.

You're aware that your family is exploring a huge UNEXPLORED area? Sorry they don't spoon feed you how to find the secret areas. That doesn't make it bad design. It fits the bill.

Your clue in LotW's case is "some walls may not be walls. find them"

alot of games of the era are "guilty" of this, because the games came out at a time when spoon feeding the player wasn't around yet. No colored text for important parts, or hints to tell you where to go next. No scooby doo looking secret walls.

Back when the adventure games required alot of thought, and effort. People toughed em out just fine. Spoon feeding and helping the player along is a fairly recent thing, and I think its stupid to be honest.

I cant imagine playing a game like Ultima and having half as much fun if the game told me all kinds of clues without having to search em out.

[pseudonym]

So you are saying, you want visual/aural/text clues that tell you where hidden things are? That doesn't really make them hidden now does it? That makes it more like a toddler-toy.

You're aware that your family is exploring a huge UNEXPLORED area? Sorry they don't spoon feed you how to find the secret areas. That doesn't make it bad design. It fits the bill.

Your clue in LotW's case is "some walls may not be walls. find them"

alot of games of the era are "guilty" of this, because the games came out at a time when spoon feeding the player wasn't around yet. No colored text for important parts, or hints to tell you where to go next. No scooby doo looking secret walls.

Back when the adventure games required alot of thought, and effort. People toughed em out just fine. Spoon feeding and helping the player along is a fairly recent thing, and I think its stupid to be honest.

I cant imagine playing a game like Ultima and having half as much fun if the game told me all kinds of clues without having to search em out.

A hint now and then besides, "some walls may not be walls. find them", would be nice. That's barely a clue anyway. I think most people expect a little help when you spend hours of trial and error searching with each character, hoping to find a hidden wall to continue through the game. Even adventure games and text games usually gave some subtle hints along the way.

I think it would be interesting to find out who actually beat this game without resorting to a online FAQ or some other help.

[johndarkness]

I wonder nobody mentioned these GC/DS games yet.
Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles - Ring of Fates
Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles - Echoes of Time

[BetaWolf47]

I wonder nobody mentioned these GC/DS games yet.
Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles - Ring of Fates
Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles - Echoes of Time

Huh? Neither of those are GC games. Speaking of which, I don't think anybody has mentioned the Tales games.

[Zoltor]

A hint now and then besides, "some walls may not be walls. find them", would be nice. That's barely a clue anyway. I think most people expect a little help when you spend hours of trial and error searching with each character, hoping to find a hidden wall to continue through the game. Even adventure games and text games usually gave some subtle hints along the way.

I think it would be interesting to find out who actually beat this game without resorting to a online FAQ or some other help.

I think you are in the wrong forum if you want sympathy, you will get none here little one(you want the modern gaming forum), so be on you way now.

Lol imagine someone complaining something hidden be actually hidden, give me a break)all such games would suck if you could trll were the secret doors were(I don't even want to imagine how dull the Wizardry, Faria or Zelda games would've been, among many, many other games).

[BetaWolf47]

A lot of the popular games do give you hints. The ones that are incredibly cryptic are often not remembered too fondly. You can tell when a wall is bombable in any of the Zelda games other than on the overworld in Zelda 1, while sidescrolling adventures have townspeople that spout out random hints. I can relate, though, because I can't stand how immeasurably cryptic the original Phantasy Star is.

[Zoltor]

A lot of the popular games do give you hints. The ones that are incredibly cryptic are often not remembered too fondly. You can tell when a wall is bombable in any of the Zelda games other than on the overworld in Zelda 1, while sidescrolling adventures have townspeople that spout out random hints. I can relate, though, because I can't stand how immeasurably cryptic the original Phantasy Star is.

Lol nothing is more cryptic then Faria(well wizardy skips over that, because they give no hints at all), the only hint you get is, that somewhere in so, and so tower is a secret door, but what they fail to mention is, that there are many secret doors in the tower, most of which are dead ends, so the hint is pretty pointless.

What are you talking about, in the original Zelda, you can't tell where any of the secret areas are(including in dungeons), don't you remember having to try bombing every wall(the only other option is to reveal every room you can get to first to get an idea where they may be, which is very unefficiant(and besides that's not even the game giving you a hint, that's you giving yourself a hint).

[Aussie2B]

So you are saying, you want visual/aural/text clues that tell you where hidden things are? That doesn't really make them hidden now does it? That makes it more like a toddler-toy.

You're aware that your family is exploring a huge UNEXPLORED area? Sorry they don't spoon feed you how to find the secret areas. That doesn't make it bad design. It fits the bill.

Your clue in LotW's case is "some walls may not be walls. find them"

alot of games of the era are "guilty" of this, because the games came out at a time when spoon feeding the player wasn't around yet. No colored text for important parts, or hints to tell you where to go next. No scooby doo looking secret walls.

Back when the adventure games required alot of thought, and effort. People toughed em out just fine. Spoon feeding and helping the player along is a fairly recent thing, and I think its stupid to be honest.

I cant imagine playing a game like Ultima and having half as much fun if the game told me all kinds of clues without having to search em out.

Uh, who said anything about spoon-feeding the player? I'm talking about CLUES, not the game blatantly pointing out things. Most games, at least since the 16-bit era but also many prior, give some form of a clue. Sometimes a secret wall has a subtly different tile, or the tile of the floor in front of the wall is slightly different, with a shadow or something like in StarTropics. Or sometimes the design of a room will try to direct you to something. Some games give a clue through sound, like if you stab a bombable wall in Zelda it'll play a different sound effect, or a game might have some kind of radar item, like in Lufia II you can hear a chime with a specific item if you missed a chest in a dungeon so you know to search for secret paths through walls or something else you missed. Or sometimes NPCs just tell you clues that you have to remember and make sense of, like in Battle of Olympus. Again, when done right, these things are SUBTLE, and then give a sense of accomplishment when you discover them because you've applied your own logical thinking and/or careful observation.

If you actually feel accomplished stumbling across something randomly by dumb luck, more power to you, but I don't feel like I've accomplished anything in those situations besides either getting lucky to find something right away or having the patience to tolerate a lot of trial and error. And if you want all of your adventure/RPG games to not give any clues whatsoever, then, well, you're sure limited in what you can play. There's a reason most developers quickly switched to incorporating some form of clues, and it's not because they wanted to lead the player hand-in-hand through the game. It's just good design.

[Zoltor]

If you actually feel accomplished stumbling across something randomly by dumb luck, more power to you, but I don't feel like I've accomplished anything in those situations besides either getting lucky to find something right away or having the patience to tolerate a lot of trial and error. And if you want all of your adventure/RPG games to not give any clues whatsoever, then, well, you're sure limited in what you can play. There's a reason most developers quickly switched to incorporating some form of clues, and it's not because they wanted to lead the player hand-in-hand through the game. It's just good design.

Um stop right there, people feel acomplished for "actually searching" for stuff(luck has nothing to do with anything, It's super rare to stumble into such things as secret door, infact basically unheard of), you want to find secret doors, then you better search every wall until you find it, if there is no secret door in one area, move on to the next area, and search there, It's that "simple".

[NerdXCrewWill]

I think that, while a very difficult game, Legacy of the Wizard isn't totally full of impossible to find hidden passages or anything. The only thing that is a little confusing is the character-specific items, if you haven't read the instruction manual or a faq. I suppose it's not clear through in-game text what exactly you're looking for, but once you realize that there are four crowns and a sword to collect, it's pretty straightforward. The challenge then comes from using skill to navigate the rooms and find more treasure chests. Rooms are either straightforward passages that require you to kill enemies or contain some kind of puzzle. Nothing essential to completion is hidden, if I remember correctly.

[Aussie2B]

Um stop right there, people feel acomplished for "actually searching" for stuff(luck has nothing to do with anything, It's super rare to stumble into such things as secret door, infact basically unheard of), you want to find secret doors, then you better search every wall until you find it, if there is no secret door in one area, move on to the next area, and search there, It's that "simple".

And do you actually find that tedious trial and error fun? Do you honestly believe that's good design? What's there to feel accomplished about? Like I said, the only "accomplishment" is proving that you have the patience to suffer through monotonous, waste of time crap like that. Or if you really want to stretch it, you could argue that it's an accomplishment to stay alive through battling all the enemies you encounter as you endlessly search each tile, waiting to finally come across that one fake wall you need to find to progress.

Now if the player is doing that searching with some form of knowledge other than "this game has some fake walls", then that's a genuine accomplishment when you apply that knowledge to make a discovery.

[Ruudos]

Secret of Evermore
Secret of Mana
Illusion of Time
Terranigma
Zelda II
Faxanadu
The Battle of Olympus

[backguard]

I highly recommend Darkstone for the PSX. It was budget release late in the system's life, but it's a surprisingly deep game.

You can find this one on the cheap too. Decent game.

Has anyone mentioned Sacred 2? Demon's Souls?

Sacred 2 has an awesome character building system. Complicated as heck but once you figure out how it works it is pretty cool.

Edit: Were the SMT Devil Summoner titles any good? I heard they were action rpgs.

[Zoltor]

And do you actually find that tedious trial and error fun? Do you honestly believe that's good design? What's there to feel accomplished about? Like I said, the only "accomplishment" is proving that you have the patience to suffer through monotonous, waste of time crap like that. Or if you really want to stretch it, you could argue that it's an accomplishment to stay alive through battling all the enemies you encounter as you endlessly search each tile, waiting to finally come across that one fake wall you need to find to progress.

Now if the player is doing that searching with some form of knowledge other than "this game has some fake walls", then that's a genuine accomplishment when you apply that knowledge to make a discovery.

Tedious, hell no, not at all(since 99% of all secret doors in games aren't required to progress through the game, and the ones that are, are almost always in a very obvious spot), fun yes, finding hidden areas you had no idea was there is always a good thing, and to have your hard work finally pay off is always a great feeling.

No It's not bad design lol, especially when such things are in Action/RPGs, and Action/Adventure, half the fun is exploration(hell that's one of the main aspects of both of those sub genres).

I strongly suggest you go over to the modern gaming forums, where there are no such thing as RPGs(they are just stories with crappy movies), and where Adventure games no longer require adventuring.

You really should leave before the linch mob shows up.

PS.If anything is a bad design, It's how games today make "secret" doors not so secret lol, it makes me sick.

[Rickstilwell1]

Nobody answered this yet but what draws the line between Zelda (especially A Link to the Past) and Alundra being RPG or not? Both of them have money, both of them have a story, interactive characters to talk to, bosses to fight, areas to explore and a large inventory of items. Not to mention weapon and armor upgrades, and upgrades to other equipment.

If Zelda is an action adventure, then by definition wouldn't Alundra also be an action adventure and not an RPG? neither of them require leveling up

[backguard]

Wow this thread has been totally hijacked. Have any of you read the OP?

[Zoltor]

Wow this thread has been totally hijacked. Have any of you read the OP?

Yea, I so shouldn't have bit the bait the troll left, sorry.

Well back on topic, you can never go wrong with Crystalis or Secret of Mana. If you are looking for action/RPGs those 2 are must get.

[Arkhan]

I beat legacy of the wizard when I was in elementary school, before we even had the internet. I have friends who can attest to this.

I come from the Ultima/D&D Goldbox/Wizardry school of RPGs. Clues are a luxury. I'll play games where they make it easier since they're still fun... but I think it's kind of lame half the time when they clue you in on everything.

All of the old "cryptic" games are tedious if you're used to playing newer games where they dumb everything down.

I'd love to go adventuring IRL and be plopped down in a dungeon where all the secret doors were a different color, the explodable walls look funny, and all the local townsfolk are in-the-know about all sorts of adventurous crap. If they know all this stuff, why don't they go save the world instead.

Legacy of the Wizard isn't even a hard game. Read the manual so you know what you are supposed to do, spend about I dunno, 10 hours playing it, and you'll probably finish it.

I didn't know you were an expert on game design, Aussie2B.

Back on topic: How about Brain Lord.

Forgot about that and Illusion of Gaia

[Aussie2B]

Tedious, hell no, not at all(since 99% of all secret doors in games aren't required to progress through the game, and the ones that are, are almost always in a very obvious spot)

If it's "obvious", then the game is giving you some kind of clue, be it in the design of the room or whatever else has made it obvious. I don't know why you guys can't differentiate the concept of a subtle clue that takes thought to figure out and a flashing, neon arrow pointing to exactly what you need to do.

And we were talking about Legacy of the Wizard, in which the secrets aren't obvious and often are required. Like I said in my first post, when it is just for bonus stuff, I largely don't mind if something has to found purely by random luck or trial and error, but if you base the normal game around that, again I say it's bad design and reducing the entertainment value because it's turning it more into work than fun, regardless of if you feel satisfied upon finally discovering a secret. If anything, it's more akin to relief than anything else.


I strongly suggest you go over to the modern gaming forums, where there are no such thing as RPGs(they are just stories with crappy movies), and where Adventure games no longer require adventuring.

You really should leave before the linch mob shows up.

Uh huh. And I'm supposed to be the troll? Sorry, but I don't see any "linch" mob showing up. Nice way to insult modern games and their fans as a whole there. But I'll have you know I play retro games far, far more than modern games, and when I play classic RPGs and adventure games, I usually play them completely "old school", meticulously drawing out maps and taking notes. I have absolutely zero problem with difficult old games that expect me to take it slow and explore every corner, but I will point out bad design where I feel I see it and not attribute it to an "old vs. new" line of thought.

And honestly, "troll bait"? I was just posting my opinions for crying out loud.


I didn't know you were an expert on game design, Aussie2B.

Are you seriously going to turn this into a penis wagging competition? Nobody has to be an expert on anything to post their thoughts here. But if you're going to try to act like my opinions aren't as credible as yours because you think you have more knowledge than me, fine, I'll share my background. I don't know or care if it makes me an "expert" or not, but I've been a nationally publisher reviewer for half a decade, I've won cash prizes recognizing the quality of my critiques, I have a BS in Computer Science, and I've programmed a handful of amateur games. So, yes, I do think I know a thing or two about game design, but obviously everyone has differing opinions on what constitutes good and bad design. I also know that nearly all of the most widely praised RPGs and adventure games give some form of clues about their secrets, just as BetaWolf47 pointed out.

[Arkhan]

Are you seriously going to turn this into a penis wagging competition? Nobody has to be an expert on anything to post their thoughts here. But if you're going to try to act like my opinions aren't as credible as yours because you think you have more knowledge than me, fine, I'll share my background. I don't know or care if it makes me an "expert" or not, but I've been a nationally publisher reviewer for half a decade, I've won cash prizes recognizing the quality of my critiques, I have a BS in Computer Science, and I've programmed a handful of amateur games. So, yes, I do think I know a thing or two about game design, but obviously everyone has differing opinions on what constitutes good and bad design. I also know that nearly all of the most widely praised RPGs and adventure games give some form of clues about their secrets, just as BetaWolf47 pointed out.

I don't like wagging penises. It's kind of a waste of time to share backgrounds and brag about who did what. If you have programmed a few games before and know a thing or two, fine. If you've won prizes and are an experienced reviewer, fine.

slight tangent: a CS degree doesn't really do anything in the way of game design. Just sayin' (from experience).

Then, You should be aware that there are different kinds of adventure games, and that the earliest ones which take a more D&D approach, require more effort. Perhaps consider them more "advanced". You seem to have no problem playing games where you have to take notes and make maps, so what is so wrong with having to prod all of the screens in legacy of the wizard? There aren't THAT many screens in the game.

Ultima *is* a widely praised RPG series, and they do not present you with much in the way of clues/information. You have to go seek it all out and actively research information from NPCs. If you go through Ultima without talking to anyone, its impossible to win the game. You wont know what you're doing.

The goldbox D&D series *is* a widely praised RPG series, and you really don't find too many clues about secrets in them...You get some journal entries, but alot of that was just copy protection, and memory saving w/ smoke and mirrors.

the problem people have with LotW is that on the surface it appears to be an action platformer. Once the player doesn't understand that there is more to it, and decides to just run around killing stuff and trying to "win", all is lost.

You have to investigate all of the rooms, make maps, use trial and error. Its no different than trying to beat Quest of the Avatar for the first time. Noone clues you in on where any of the runes are, or who will tell you what about where to do things. Everyone got along fine, spent alot of time on the game and its hailed as a classic.

What kind of clue would really fit into LotW without making it too easy? There are no NPCs to chit-chat with, and to be honest, I think it's fairly obvious and simple to understand that on any given screen, its possible that many blocks can be passed through. If you see a place that's "blocked", try finding your way through it.

and I mean this in all seriousness, you might think the MSX version is less of a pain in the ass.

The NES one has scrolling so the division of "screens" is kind of hard to discern. The MSX one is screen-by-screen so you can keep track of what you've poked at a lot easier, especially with a map.

My map I made was on like 4 sheets of paper taped together. I moved a little figure from room to room as I played so I knew where i was and what was going on.

Nowadays theres BIG images of the entire game you can just print out and use. talk about easy.

[rgw825]

I will recommend the game that was recommended to me when i asked about some good RPG's. The Twisted Tales of Spike Mcfang. I really enjoyed it. It was short but i didn't care.

[pseudonym]

I think you are in the wrong forum if you want sympathy, you will get none here little one(you want the modern gaming forum), so be on you way now.

Lol imagine someone complaining something hidden be actually hidden, give me a break)all such games would suck if you could trll were the secret doors were(I don't even want to imagine how dull the Wizardry, Faria or Zelda games would've been, among many, many other games).

Trial and error searching/exploring is great when it's done right like in Zelda and Wizardry; LotW has an overabundance of it and it gets tiring pretty quick.

Odd that you talk about Modern Gaming, most of your posts seems to be there. Why don't you stick to that forum instead of trolling in Classic Gaming? Ass.

[Arkhan]

maybe im alone in my LotW isnt that bad club

:(

[Zoltor]

maybe im alone in my LotW isnt that bad club

:(

Nah you aren't alone, It's just kids these days.

Really, if he thinks that game is harsh, I hate to see him try playing Faria, now that's a insane omount of secret doors with no hints(lol it took me a couple of weeks to find my way through the one tower, the first time I played that game).

It's funny though, he has no problem with games like Wizardy though(huge maps, no hints, and few secret doors, but for the most part you have to find the secret doors to progress through the game).

To the troll: Lol perhaps you should see what my posts are. Lets see, making fun of Sony, and talking about retrogame challenge lol which is technically a collection of classic games/clones.

[pseudonym]

Nah you aren't alone, It's just kids these days.

Really, if he thinks that game is harsh, I hate to see him try playing Faria, now that's a insane omount of secret doors with no hints(lol it took me a couple of weeks to find my way through the one tower, the first time I played that game).

It's funny though, he has no problem with games like Wizardy though(huge maps, no hints, and few secret doors, but for the most part you have to find the secret doors to progress through the game).

To the troll: Lol perhaps you should see what my posts are. Lets see, making fun of Sony, and talking about retrogame challenge lol which is technically a collection of classic games/clones.

I never used the word harsh, I said it was tedious and it is for the most part. Both Faria and LotW aren't the best games of their respective genres but they're decent enough.

You seem to like making blanket statements about things without really knowing anything, that was my problem with you. How do you know how old I am? I could be older than you. And just because a game is old doesn't make it inherently better than newer games. Having a ton of hidden shit scattered around in a game with little to go on besides testing each and every wall, nook, and cranny doesn't necessarily make a great game as you seem to imply.

Wow, you made fun of Sony! Good for you! Come back when you have something to contribute instead of trying to troll.

[Arkhan]

actually Pseudonym, I think he is referring to Aussie2B!

anyway, I wonder how many of the people who think LotW is too hard/annoying played it without ever reading the manual.

It was meant to be played after reading that!

Also, what about Sorcerian?

That game rules.

[Wraith Storm]

I wonder how many of the people who think LotW is too hard/annoying played it without ever reading the manual.

Legacy of the Wizard was the first Falcom game I ever played. I LOVE it and I have been a fan of the company ever since.

My cousin had LOTW for the NES when I was a kid and every time I spent a weekend there I would play the game late into the night. All I had to go on was what he told me "You are supposed to find 4 crowns and a magic sword and kill the dragon." So I knew what I was supposed to do but no way of knowing how to accomplishing the task.

It would be similar to playing The Legend of Zelda for the first time and him telling me "You have to find the 8 pieces of the Tri-force and then kill Gannon." Well... okay... hmmmm... where to begin?! LOTW, similar to Zelda, was a huge game and required a LOT of exploration and trial and error. There is nothing wrong with this style of game design... yes it is more time consuming and possibly tedious to some, but it is what it is.

In Zelda you didn't know what bushes to burn, walls to bomb, and screens to blow the whistle on to uncover stuff. No one told you these things. It was all trial and error. Same thing in LOTW.

I do understand what Aussie2B is trying to say as far as in LOTW you are basically required to find these "secrets" to proceed through the game, but with Zelda (excluding the Second Quest) it was usually just bonus items (Heart Containers) that certainly helped but weren't required to beat the game with.

Still yet I don't see why so many people love Zelda but fault Legacy of the Wizard for having very similar game design choices.

[pseudonym]

LotW = serious business

I never actually read the manual, even though I owned a CIB copy of the game for years. Haha.

[Zoltor]

actually Pseudonym, I think he is referring to Aussie2B!

anyway, I wonder how many of the people who think LotW is too hard/annoying played it without ever reading the manual.

It was meant to be played after reading that!

Also, what about Sorcerian?

That game rules.

Lol yea I was, evidently a few people speed posted before I could get that posted.

[Arkhan]

LotW = serious business

I never actually read the manual, even though I owned a CIB copy of the game for years. Haha.

the manual makes the general point of the game alot more clear!

all of this talking made me turn the damn game on again and start flying through it. >_< damnit lol

[Pk116]

Start with Legend of Zelda... then play through series...

Next StarTropics... then sequel..

Next consider Secret of Mana (Seiken Densetsu) series...

But, with the exception of Zelda, most action/RPGs became multiplayer hack n slash after 8-bit era.... no more things like exploring, mapping or riddles... so get a friend for things like Legend of Mana (PSX), Baldur's Gate (PS2), Champions of Norrath (PS2) and Gauntlet: Dark Legacy (PS2).

Dark Cloud (PS2) was an interesting game... I really liked some parts of it and did not like others... maybe I will go back to it one day.

Also I've never played the Ys series but I have heard good things about it... I think that was mostly a Turbografx series... I never owned one of those... And I also want to play Crystalis, Magic of Schezerade and replay things like Faxanadu, Secret of Evermore, Illusion of Gaia and Lagoon... those are all action/RPGs too.

[Arkhan]

Also I've never played the Ys series but I have heard good things about it... I think that was mostly a Turbografx series...

The Ys series was whored out to every entertainment machine from the 80s and 90s more or less...

MSX, PC-88, NES, Genesis, SMS, TG, TGCD, SNES, Saturn, PC, theres just a ton of Ys all over! Find and play! GO GO GO!

[Aussie2B]

Ultima *is* a widely praised RPG series, and they do not present you with much in the way of clues/information. You have to go seek it all out and actively research information from NPCs. If you go through Ultima without talking to anyone, its impossible to win the game. You wont know what you're doing.

But see, that's exactly what I was talking about. Those games are doing it right. If you're getting information from NPCs, then you're getting some form of clues. Then you get to apply your mind to them and feel genuinely accomplished when you figure something out. Even if there's some degree of trial and error still in what you're doing, at least you're given an opportunity to narrow your search. Some games are way more liberal with the clues than others, but I expect some level of them.

Oh, and I don't know if I'd say Legacy of the Wizard is a bad game, just... misguided, I'd guess. I enjoyed the game fairly well for about half of it, but after awhile the irritating quirks of it got me to the point where I wanted to shake the developers and scream "Why did you do this?!" Sometimes it's more frustrating dealing with flaws in a game that you want to enjoy than in a game that you can write off as bad through and through.


Nah you aren't alone, It's just kids these days.

Really, if he thinks that game is harsh, I hate to see him try playing Faria, now that's a insane omount of secret doors with no hints(lol it took me a couple of weeks to find my way through the one tower, the first time I played that game).

It's funny though, he has no problem with games like Wizardy though(huge maps, no hints, and few secret doors, but for the most part you have to find the secret doors to progress through the game).

To the troll: Lol perhaps you should see what my posts are. Lets see, making fun of Sony, and talking about retrogame challenge lol which is technically a collection of classic games/clones.

"Kids"? :rolleyes: I bet I'm older than you are, especially going off of how you compose your posts.

I don't know what the heck you're going on about in this post considering I never even mentioned Wizardry.

Like pseudonym was saying, you're the only troll in this topic. And apparently you're trolling the modern gaming forum too, good job.

[Zigfried]

One or two truly "hidden" (and optional) secrets is okay.

[Jisho23]

3 pages and no mention of Soul Blazer? Oh well, consider it mentioned. Its real pick up and play, not extremely complicated or deep.

And I could have sworn I was the only one who liked Alundra. Good to see that a good game does have its fans.

[Pk116]

One or two truly "hidden" (and optional) secrets is okay.

But stuff like Legacy of the Wizard is bad game design, for reasons that Aussie2B has already pointed out. Searching every single wall does not require skill; it requires the time and patience of a bored child. That's all.

Deciphering clues and applying them to the game to locate a secret path... now THAT takes skill or intelligence. Look back at a game like The Bard's Tale. It had a lot of secret doors, but it also had a lot of hints, both blatant (clues from text messages) and less obvious (something in the environment just seemed wrong). That's one reason why Bard's Tale smashed Wizardry across its mighty knee.

Playing through a game by pressing against every wall, as Zoltor endorsed in an earlier post, is the gaming method of a dumbass. That's not oldschool; that's badschool. A smart game will supply hints, and a smart gamer will use those hints to expediently locate secrets.

There's nothing wrong with enjoying bad games, but defending poor game design by saying "IT'S UNEXPLORED TERRITORY, THERE SHOULD NOT BE ANY HINTS" is pretty weak.

//Zig

Might and Magic I was no hints, hidden walls everywhere, Ultima I was same way. RPGs in those days just did it I think...designers expected you to look for hidden walls, that's you you got the beep and the 'SOLID!' in Wizardry and Might and Magic when there was none. It is old-school.

I never Played Legacy of Wizard but I think lots of hidden walls is good, challenging design, not bad design.

Also looks like Might and Magic I was '86 and Legacy of Wizard '87.... that is pretty close in years... and Legacy of Wizard also released for MSX Japanese computer like Might and Magic I is computer.. it makes sense they are alike in that way... it was a convention...

[Zigfried]

Might & Magic had hints. It's true that it did have several optional unhinted spots, but it had boatloads of hints leading towards everything required to win the game.

[NerdXCrewWill]

Admittedly, I haven't played Legacy of the Wizard in a couple of months (I think it was August), but I think I remember the game well enough.

There aren't many, if any, non-obvious/hidden fake walls in the game that are necessary to beating the game. Most fake walls are part of the puzzle of the room. This is usually as simple as a room full of ladders surrounded by wall blocks. In this case, it is easy to walk through the walls and climb the ladders, to get to the other side of the room, where you can then move to another screen. In some cases, it involves avoiding the blocks that disintegrate and drop you on to the floor below. In other cases, the puzzle simply involves walking through some blocks in a straight line to get to a ladder. There are rarely, if any, instances where you are stuck without a clue as to where to go and have to find a secret path in a nonobvious spot to continue on.

The dungeon of Legacy of the Wizard is divided into four main sections. These sections are designed to be played by a certain member of the family, based on jump height and/or the main items usable by that family member. After you figure which member should play which section, the dungeon is actually kind of intuitive, only requiring you to explore which paths are the right one. Sometimes there is a room with two paths to take, which usually ultimately lead you around in a circle or to a chest. Each room consists of a puzzle, such as the power glove puzzle, or a slew of monsters and spikes to move through.

Any hidden walls are evident, as they are part of the puzzle of the room. If the room is not a dead end, there is a ladder leading above or below to another screen. You reach this ladder by walking an unimpeded path to it or by walking through a fake wall.

Again, there are no spots where the designers require you to go through a fake wall in a spot that you would never otherwise search. The challenge of the game comes in choosing which character to use, surviving the dangers or solving the puzzle of the rooms, keeping track of which rooms you have been in just in case you get turned around in a circle after a branching path, and fighting the bosses. Of course, there are spots where you may randomly walk through a wall and find a chest of gold or an inn or shop. These ARE NOT required to beat the game but provide extra sense of exploration.

I don't know guys. I always though Legacy of the Wizard had some of the best level design I've ever played. Some of the puzzles are extremely rewarding to complete. It's really not as unintuitive as you claim it to be. Maybe you haven't played in years, or just got bored with the simplistic battles or the length of the dungeon?

[Wraith Storm]

^^^ The above post has my Seal of Approval. (Much more credible than Nintendo's.)

In all seriousness however, well said.

[Arkhan]

First of all, I don't understand why you refer to them as "hidden walls". The walls are not hidden. Why would an enemy hide a wall?

what? That doesnt even make sense. The enemy didnt make all of the dungeons/places to explore in games. Hidden = Secret. Synonyms my man!



Secondly, Might & Magic had hints. It's true that it did have several optional unhinted spots, but it had boatloads of hints leading towards everything required to win the game.

We must be using the term 'hint' very loosely here! >_<



Also, contemporaries such as Bard's Tale (1985) and Starflight (1986) had plenty of hints. I admit there were several "less-hinted" and "un-hinted" games at the time, but there were also well-designed games.

Bards Tale is brutal both in terms of encounters, and in terms of clues. "plenty of hints" in this instance can be resaid as "useless nonsense". That being said, I really like the game, lol.



Granted, none of the above are action-RPGs so they're all off-topic here, but the point is that even in the mid-80's there were game designers who "got it". And I know that both M&M and Bard's Tale were popular in Japan. So titles like Legacy of the Wizard have no reasonable excuse for their poor design.

Its not really that time consuming to find the hidden crap in LotW and as was stated alot of it is bloody obvious if you have an IQ above 10, and there *are* no NPCs in the game, so investigating for clues kind of doesnt really work. It took a different approach to the adventure genre, and it turned out to be a pretty solid game. Poor design is a matter of opinion. I think the "problems" in the game are over exaggerated.

MSXers I've talked to who played only that version of the game don't really ever have these complaints about the game. its also a reccomended game in the DSlayer series.



Legend of Xanadu kicked butt, though. After LOTW, Falcom learned their lesson and started developing some pretty awesome stuff.
//Zig

was there lesson that western gamers complain alot about goofy stuff? just sayin'

RPGs as a whole have gotten a bit watered down as far as the adventuring, exploring, and thinking aspects. Demons Winter and Eternal Dagger. Games like that would make the current generation of RPG players cry themselves to sleep every night.



Those games are doing it right. If you're getting information from NPCs, then you're getting some form of clues.


Ever actually play Ultima IV? I think talking to NPCs in that game for information is alot more repetitive and annoying than prodding for walls in legacy of the wizard.

it goes a little something like:

>T
Direction?
>N
Greetings!
>Name
I am BORIS
>Job
I farm crops
>Runes
What?
>Goodbye

repeat until you find people that aren't useless. Dont forget to ask randomly about words of power, mantras, dungeons, and other crap that you might need to complete the game.

Its simulating D&D, only its not as simple as telling the DM "I ask this NPC if he knows anything about *current event*" followed by a response.

[runinruder]

Some good PC Engine action-RPGs:

Blood Gear
Brandish
Efera & Jiliora
Magicoal
Dungeon Explorer
Dungeon Explorer II
Makai Hakkenden Shada
Legend of Xanadu
Legend of Xanadu II
Popful Mail
Xak I & II
Ys I-IV

Some of my favorites for other consoles are Alundra, Crystalis, Zelda II, and Ys VI.

[mobiusclimber]

The Ys series was whored out to every entertainment machine from the 80s and 90s more or less...

MSX, PC-88, NES, Genesis, SMS, TG, TGCD, SNES, Saturn, PC, theres just a ton of Ys all over! Find and play! GO GO GO!

Problem is, best english-language version of the first two Ys games is on the TG CD. The Famicom version seems pretty good as far as I've played it (the first Ys I mean), in fact the world is a lot bigger. But it's all in Japanese. And Ys III isn't really an action-RPG (or very good, imo). You also forgot about the DS port... I don't blame you for forgetting about it tho. =p

I'm starting to feel like I should go tackle Legacy of the Wizard. I played it for awhile and liked it ok but it seemed like the kind of game I couldn't play casually, and at the time I didn't feel like going all Wizardry on a game (making maps, trying to figure everything out, etc etc).

Wish I had something to add, but I think most of the games I'd mention have already been mentioned. (Unless the OP wants a list of Japanese releases...)

[Arkhan]

how is Ys III not an action RPG?


also the DS port of Ys is a jacked up version of the PC one. Its not good.

the pack in soundtrack is missing the town music too which is stupid.

[pseudonym]

Anyone mention Brain Lord yet? Cliched storyline, basically no plot other than the glorified fetch quests you're send on, a bare-bones game world; not really Enix's finest moment other than the environmental puzzles in the various dungeons which are the best part of the game.

It reminds me of Alundra a little bit, which is one of my favorite action RPGs.

Also, is Brandish better on the PCE? Anyone? The SNES game is awful.

[Arkhan]

i m entioned Brainlord, and thought it was a really great game. I liked the puzzles alot

[pseudonym]

i m entioned Brainlord, and thought it was a really great game. I liked the puzzles alot

The puzzles are good and the action is good for the most part, but there's not any real depth to the gameplay.

[Arkhan]

well with a title like Brain Lord, I was mostly expecting puzzles :)

The game has a creepy atmosphere too, which I like.


Still, Illusion of Gaia is much better!

[Wolfrider]

Thought I'd get the ball rolling on this thread again.

I just picked up Alundra and I effing love it. One of the best working designs games I've ever played.

However most of the suggestions here seem to be focusing on the 16-bit and under era. How about the 32 bit era? Any great ARPGs for the Sega Saturn or the PSX.

I'm more interested in the PSX at the moment though - I'd have to go out and buy a SS.

[kupomogli]

Well. Here are the games I think you should pick up if you have the systems.

-Fallout 3
-Demon's Souls(PS3)
-Forever Kingdom
-Evergrace
-King's Field/Eternal Ring/Shadow Tower series
-Tales of series
-Dirge of Cerberus FF7
-Monster Hunter
-Baldur's Gate Dark Alliance
-Everquest Champions of Norrath/Return to Arms
-Avalon Code

That covers the still current gen games, but for older titles.

-Alundra
-Dragon Valor
-Illusion of Gaia
-Brain Lord
-Terranigma
-Soul Blazer
-Brave Fencer Musashi
-Threads of Fate
-Ehrgeiz(Dungeon mode)
-Seiken Densetsu/Mana series
-Secret of Evermore
-Parasite Eve 2(and the first one somewhat)
-Ys series
-DBZ Legacy of Goku/Buu's Fury
-Summon Night Swordcraft Story
-Dungeons and Dragons Shadow Over Mystara
-Dungeons and Dragons Tower of Doom
-Popful Mail
-Sword of Vermillion
-Zelda 2
-Crystalis
-Magic of Scheherazade
-Faxanadu
-Legacy of the Wizard

There we go. If you consider Zelda an action RPG, then also go with.

-Crusader of Centy
-Neutopia
-Neutopia 2
-Startropics
-Zoda's Revenge Star Tropics 2

[Phaneuf]

http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx27/akaphaneuf/29NGCast_Torchlight.jpg
you should try Torchlight (PC) (Diablo Clone)
Even without multiplayer, Torchlight makes for a remarkably entertaining 10 to 15 hours, with plenty more custom content to come thanks to the powerful game editor TorchED, which you can download free of charge. Even if you aren't waiting impatiently for Diablo III, Torchlight's a great value at a mere $20.