TG16 Protos and Value

[megamindx4]

Hi! Someone here suggested that I ask for suggestions as to how to value
some TG16 prototypes. These may be available for sale, but for now I am
primarily interested in how to value these for insurance purposes.

Here is a short list of recently re-uncovered (OK, safely stored away for my
future gaming room) prototypes and premasters for the TurboGrafx 16, which
is my second most favorite platform. (First being the PCEngine, so there.)

Premaster and Prototypes US TurboGrafx CDs

These are all burned. They are the original and legitimate programmers'
proto/beta/premaster, and all have various "Sharpie" markings on them.
Some Jewel cases have stickers on them. What's the difference between
a prototype and a premaster and a beta? I have no idea. These were all
purchased from employees at Viacom, and are on very obviously old single
to quad speed green or blue media. To my knowledge, I am the original
owner of these prototypes, following Viacom, and they have NOT been
duped or archived, so no other known copies of these versions exist.

Addams Family Premaster 11/11/91
Beyond Shadowgate Beta#7 9/17/93
Beyond Shadowgate Premaster 10/17/93
Camp California Premaster 1/15/93
Camp California Premaster 2/1/93
Camp California Prototype 5/3/93
Dungeon Explorer II Prototype 9/9/93
Dungeon Master Prototype 6/7/93
Loom Premaster 3/11/92
Riot Zone Prototype 2/10/93
Shape Shifter Premaster 3/26/92
Shape Shifter Prototype 7/7/92
SimEarth Premaster 11/4/92

Prototype Hucard - These are long green diving boards with EPROMs
erupting from the tops. They are all official NEC boards, with the
appropriate logos and silkscreen artwork for the PCB.

I've noted the date markings on the top of the EPROMs for reference.

Magical Chase Engineering Proto 1/29/93
Bomberman 93 Engineering Proto unknown date
New Adventure Island Engineering Proto 4/10
Neutopia II Engineering Proto unknown date

Thanks!

Keith (yeah, I was on the TurboList, for you oldtimers.....)

[hellfire]

I would say at least 5 thousand dollars, but im not an expert on the subject

[Borman]

I cant comment on monetary values, but the best insurance is to back them up, and store them somewhere, preferably multiple places. Both over the internet cloud, and someplace safe that is at least 100 miles away. No money will bring them back if they are lost.

[ottojello]

I would go for a million dollars, pay one premium and then burn the house down!

[otoko]

I would go for a million dollars, pay one premium and then burn the house down!

GREAT IDEA!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v17/otknot/insurance_fraud1-1.jpg

[TheRedEye]

I would say at least 50 thousand dollars, but im not an expert on the subject

Are you serious or is that a hilarious exaggeration?

[tubeway]

Nevermind.

[Tempest]

I don't know the pricing on TG protos anymore but they're rare. Rarer than protos for most other systems for some reason. This lot could easily go for $5000-$8000 depending on the buyer. It might even go for more (I don't know how rabid TG collectors are with protos), but I'd say $5000 min.

Tempest

[badinsults]

Are you serious or is that a hilarious exaggeration?

No, hellfire is just a moron. I'm sure he was serious.



Certainly, the best way to protect the information on the prototypes is to dump them yourself. If they are of high value, the cost of something to dump them should be low in comparison. The value of prototypes plummet if the EPROMs go bad (which they eventually will), so really that is the best investment. I don't know if an insurance company will insure games with EPROMs, because they have a shelf life.

[BeaglePuss]

No, hellfire is just a moron. I'm sure he was serious.



Certainly, the best way to protect the information on the prototypes is to dump them yourself. If they are of high value, the cost of something to dump them should be low in comparison. The value of prototypes plummet if the EPROMs go bad (which they eventually will), so really that is the best investment. I don't know if an insurance company will insure games with EPROMs, because they have a shelf life.

He has the ability to dump the games, and he very well may have already.

Also, this is a price check thread not a dumping/preserving/ethics thread. Try and stay on topic.

As others have stated, TG16 prototypes are not only insanely hard to come by but tend to demand far more money than other prototypes from the same era. I agree with Tempest assessment in the sense that these protos could potentially bring $8,000+.

Dream has had some luck with selling TG16 prototypes in the past, and he could probably shed more light on potential buyers and expected sales prices. Hopefully he chime in soon with his 2 cents.

[Borman]

No, Evan_G makes an excellent point (sort of) : You usually need to prove actual, market value, which is something that is near impossible with these, especially due to the media they are on. Dumping them is insurance really, and the best way to protect the investment.

[BeaglePuss]

No, Evan_G makes an excellent point (sort of) : You usually need to prove actual, market value, which is something that is near impossible with these, especially due to the media they are on. Dumping them is insurance really, and the best way to protect the investment.

Um, what?

Sure, all prototypes should be dumped to insure that the data isn't lost, but how does that have anything to do with assessing market value?

DreamTR sold an unreleased TG16 prototype called "Power Sports" not long ago for a huge sum of money (how much exactly, I'm not sure). Instead of discussing the fact that the prototypes should be dumped, people should be looking to more knowledgeable members to try and accurately assess the potential value of the prototypes.

"Market Value" doesn't really exist on such items (not that I'm telling you anything new), but potential sales numbers can be at least educationally estimated.

I'm not looking to start a pissing contest, but these proto threads tend to get out of hand and insanely off topic (I'm as guilty as anyone in that regard). I just don't want this turning into a "Lets S*** on Hellfire" or "Dump:It's your duty" type threads, that's all.

[badinsults]

He's asking for a value for these so that he can insure them.

A prototype with dead EPROMs has little value, and since EPROMs have a shelf life, I called into question whether an insurance company would insure them, since they are almost guaranteed to eventually degrade. However, if the data were preserved separately, the value would likely still be retained.

As for a value, I would try to get a printout of how much other Turbografix prototypes sold for, show that to the insurance company as evidence of how much they are worth, and max out the coverage. Without some outside appraiser, it would be difficult to insure these, but showing how much others went for would help.

[BeaglePuss]

He's asking for a value for these so that he can insure them.

A prototype with dead EPROMs has little value, and since EPROMs have a shelf life, I called into question whether an insurance company would insure them, since they are almost guaranteed to eventually degrade. However, if the data were preserved separately, the value would likely still be retained.

As for a value, I would try to get a printout of how much other Turbografix prototypes sold for, show that to the insurance company as evidence of how much they are worth, and max out the coverage. Without some outside appraiser, it would be difficult to insure these, but showing how much others went for would help.

Excellent points all around.

I would think that you could potentially insure arcade machines, and nearly all of those have EPROMs present as well (many of which are nearly 30 years old). I don't know that EPROMs would be a determining factor in an items ability to be insured, although it would make sense after reading some of the aforementioned potential harm to the data.

I wonder if any member here as insured their prototypes. I wonder if you can insure them seeing as most prototypes shouldn't be in the collector's hands in the first place...

[Bojay1997]

I don't know the pricing on TG protos anymore but they're rare. Rarer than protos for most other systems for some reason. This lot could easily go for $5000-$8000 depending on the buyer. It might even go for more (I don't know how rabid TG collectors are with protos), but I'd say $5000 min.

Tempest

For CDRs with sharpie on them? I'll agree that the eproms are valueable and maybe even some of the CDRs if they have material differences from the released games, but I think your estimate is way high. I also question the designations used on some of the discs. It doesn't make sense that a premaster for some of the games was done before a prototype. Premaster is usually the final step before sending the game off to replication and is often used for final QC before the master is pressed. The eproms as a lot of four could probably get $2,000 - $2,500 and the CDRs are maybe another $500-$600 for the lot, possibly more if they actually have material differences.

Having said that, most insurance companies won't cover them unless you buy some kind of liquidated damages policy (i.e. you pay for a certain amount of coverage in the event the items are stolen or destroyed which isn't necessarily based on their market or replacement value, but on an amount you decide they are worth and therefore your premiums are set based on the amount). You may also be able to get a media rider, but the insurance company will require that you practice standard backup techniques and off site copies at an approved media storage facility like Iron Mountain which makes buying insurance on them kinda pointless.

[Bojay1997]

Excellent points all around.

I would think that you could potentially insure arcade machines, and nearly all of those have EPROMs present as well (many of which are nearly 30 years old). I don't know that EPROMs would be a determining factor in an items ability to be insured, although it would make sense after reading some of the aforementioned potential harm to the data.

I wonder if any member here as insured their prototypes. I wonder if you can insure them seeing as most prototypes shouldn't be in the collector's hands in the first place...

You can insure anything you want, but the insurance company is not going to provide coverage for data loss unless you buy a specific policy which covers it and having done so at various television and film production companies, I can tell you that it is super expensive and has tons of exclusions and requirements like proper backups, vaulting of duplicates, etc.. which, unless you are trying to protect a unique piece of media like a film which cannot be easily or cheaply backed up, means you're pretty much out of luck as far as getting them to pay out and therefore, you're better off saving your money and spending it on proper backups.

[hellfire]

No, hellfire is just a moron. I'm sure he was serious.



Certainly, the best way to protect the information on the prototypes is to dump them yourself. If they are of high value, the cost of something to dump them should be low in comparison. The value of prototypes plummet if the EPROMs go bad (which they eventually will), so really that is the best investment. I don't know if an insurance company will insure games with EPROMs, because they have a shelf life.

people like you are the reason I dont post on digital press anymore

[DreamTR]

Turbo Grafx protos range wildly in prices.

I have sold HuCard ones from $150-350 for released games and $1000-1500 for crazy stuff like Bonk 3 and Magical Chase. There are NUMEROUS Bomberman 93 protos out there at the moment...

I had a PC Engine prototype of Legendary Axe that was different that I sold for $1000, but the thing is you are talking ONE collector that pays this money for the things, no one else really pays that high. The value of the games he has are probably between $600-800 for the 3 minus Magical Chase, which can go for $1000-1500.

The disk protos...they fetch about $60-100 each if you know where to purchase them (and they don't have sharpee), but can get as high as $150 apiece with the right buyer.

The best CD he has there is Beyond Shadowgate, which should fetch $250-350 apiece even as they are....


It's really a decision of whether or not said collector wants these items. If he does, he will pay the most, if not, then the values decrease to normal levels, but the market value ranges wildly because of the one collector that is high into TG stuff.

[tubeway]

lulz @ trying to insure another company's proprietary data.

might as well try to insure some trade secrets you got working at Coca Cola for how much they would be worth to Pepsi.

[DreamTR]

lulz @ trying to insure another company's proprietary data.

might as well try to insure some trade secrets you got working at Coca Cola for how much they would be worth to Pepsi.

Ya, but companies send these games to PRESS a lot...newspapers, magazines, freelancers, it goes on and on....some companies never ask for them back, some companies don't even send them out, some want you to destroy them; the fact of the matter is, you see a lot of this stuff for sale quite a bit, it's just eBay having the issue with it.

Yahoo Auctions has no problem with the items and "sample" development games there are regularly sold, meaning, no issues over there.

I know people that wrote for weblogs that got DS betas, LOL..these things get out there because of the COMPANY....it's the data on the WEB they care about (or do on games not out yet) stuff that is out already they are not too concerned with...

[megamindx4]

No, Evan_G makes an excellent point (sort of) : You usually need to prove actual, market value, which is something that is near impossible with these, especially due to the media they are on. Dumping them is insurance really, and the best way to protect the investment.
Hey, guys....

Thanks for the input. I 'd like to hear more. But, FYI, I'm in the insurance business, so debating whether or not a company will insure them is probably not germane. Obviously, I can get them insured. I just want to know what value to place on them.

Very definitely, the items are not replaceable. Backing them up would be the responsible thing to do. However, as a still-practicing electrical engineer, I can say that the EPROMs are still in good shape, and that the CDRs are and have been kept in a temperature controlled and humidity controlled environment.

And, another question: How would one go about valuing hardware prototypes of game unit parts that may have been developed by a thrid party vendor? Why do I ask? I worked on a project and retained the prototypes. The project is an auto-switching TG16 unit that can swap between TG and PCE mode. Sadly, it never went to market.
But I can lay claim to being a part of that great TG16/PCE development movement that is long since passed on.....

[Bojay1997]

Hey, guys....

Thanks for the input. I 'd like to hear more. But, FYI, I'm in the insurance business, so debating whether or not a company will insure them is probably not germane. Obviously, I can get them insured. I just want to know what value to place on them.

Very definitely, the items are not replaceable. Backing them up would be the responsible thing to do. However, as a still-practicing electrical engineer, I can say that the EPROMs are still in good shape, and that the CDRs are and have been kept in a temperature controlled and humidity controlled environment.

And, another question: How would one go about valuing hardware prototypes of game unit parts that may have been developed by a thrid party vendor? Why do I ask? I worked on a project and retained the prototypes. The project is an auto-switching TG16 unit that can swap between TG and PCE mode. Sadly, it never went to market.
But I can lay claim to being a part of that great TG16/PCE development movement that is long since passed on.....

I think you already have your answer. DreamTR is probably the foremost expert on protos on these boards or anywhere for that matter and his estimate was $2,300 on the high side for the four eproms and another $1,700 for the discs, so $4K total. Honestly though, I can't see the point in paying the additional premiums on items that can be backed up very easily and protected against theft and fire just by being placed in a media vault or even a fireproof safe for that matter. As has been noted, they might be valuable to the right buyer, but they aren't exactly unique and they're not exactly likely to attract the attention of thieves should you be unfortunate enough to suffer a home burglary.

[skaar]

Ok how about this one - can one prototype collector come forward here and confirm that he/she has been able to insure their prototype collection for what they see as a fair price/market value?

[DreamTR]

When you have something to be "valued" you usually have to go to an expert for that and the problem is most of the time you would need to go to someone that "owns" a video game store for appraisal for these types of items, and since it is so niche, I am almost certain you HAVE to have some type of expert on said items and past sales in order to claim this type of value for the insurance on said items.

Similar to jewelry appraisal or what have you, it is dependent on whatever the insurance company requires.

To insure my game collection, I had someone come in to my place and have to write specific pieces down and a "whole" as a separate value for the collection (and what each piece was approximately worth) but I did not need anything appraised for such. I think that might only be the case if items are worth hundreds of thousands of dollars, but that's a whole other story.

[hellfire]

No, hellfire is just a moron. I'm sure he was serious.



Certainly, the best way to protect the information on the prototypes is to dump them yourself. If they are of high value, the cost of something to dump them should be low in comparison. The value of prototypes plummet if the EPROMs go bad (which they eventually will), so really that is the best investment. I don't know if an insurance company will insure games with EPROMs, because they have a shelf life.

Do you have anything better to do besides insulting people all day?

[Bojay1997]

Ok how about this one - can one prototype collector come forward here and confirm that he/she has been able to insure their prototype collection for what they see as a fair price/market value?

I have my collection insured, but I selected a total value and pay a premium based on that amount. Collectibles don't work like a car or a home where objective outside values can always be determined. I suppose for items over a certain value like a unique painting worth millions or something like that where a market clearly exists, an appraisal would be required, but for an entire collection, my experience has been that it is up to the collector to determine the value, inform the insurance company and then they set a premium.

[skaar]

Do you have anything better to do besides insulting people all day?

I'm sure he's got over 50 THOUSAND better things to do. :D

Seriously man. Why did you just throw in a high random arbitrary figure? How did that contribute?

Back on topic... yeah I figured the only way things would be insured was with a declared value and premiums based on that... much pricier than something with a determined value. I wonder how it works with comics...

[Tempest]

For CDRs with sharpie on them?
Sorry, must have missed that part. I thought they had some sort of official label on them. If they just look like CDR copies then they'll obviously go for much less (unless it's an unreleased game). Then again you never know, people throw crazy money at the darnedest things.

Tempest

[Vectorman0]

In 1993, CD-R recorders were still extremely expensive. Considering the cost involved in actually buying the equipment and blank media, it doesn't surprise me that they would not use an official label considering it would take extra time and money and wouldn't yield much of any benefit. What's the earliest CD game prototype with an "official label" or printed disc art?

[Bojay1997]

In 1993, CD-R recorders were still extremely expensive. Considering the cost involved in actually buying the equipment and blank media, it doesn't surprise me that they would not use an official label considering it would take extra time and money and wouldn't yield much of any benefit. What's the earliest CD game prototype with an "official label" or printed disc art?

I have a bunch of Commodore CDTV prototypes and Philips CDi protos from that era and they all use either custom prototype discs (in the case of the CDTV, they have a printed red pattern with the Commodore logo on the front with a box for writing info about the name and date of the proto, as well as jewel cases with specifically formatted information printed on the inserts) or more formal silk screened labels to indicate they are in fact prototype or testing copies. While CD-Rs and recorders were more expensive in that era, I do recall visiting a couple of game QC companies in the early 90s and they literally had stacks of hand written protoype discs for PC games piled everywhere, so it's not like they were being rationed or something. I would agree that there probably wasn't much benefit to doing formal labels, but it also raises some red flags because there is really no way to tell if something is authentic, a reproduction or one of hundreds of copies made at the time.

[DreamTR]

I've seen very few official protos of these unless they came from Japan, official meaning company label and such, but there are a bunch of the CDR betas running around of the same games that much I know.

I don't collect CD protos myself, I sell them as fast as I can get them because they don't mean as much to me as cart stuff...