What's to become of our downloaded games?

[scottw182]

As we all know, the current generation has flooded us with tons of downloadable games. Some are just ports of older games, but more and more, they're coming out with original games. I don't really care about the direct ports, in most cases I would rather just have the original physical copy. But, there are tons of original games that are download-only that I'm very interested in, and my only way to play them is to download them. I've download a couple here and there, but I've been pretty slow to do much more than that because I'm afraid of what will happen to these games. I don't want to put much money into them if in a few years, the next generations of systems comes out, our downloaded games don't transfer on, and once our older system breaks, we're SOL.

To my knowledge, neither Nintendo, Microsoft, or Sony have addressed what they plan to do about this. I know we're a few years away from new systems, but I don't want to buy a ton of games just to eventually lose them. I only buy good games that I plan to keep forever, and I don't like the idea of having no insurance that I get to keep my digital copy of these games, even if my system breaks way down the road.

So, my question is, what do you guys THINK they will do? Is there ANY evidence of what direction they may take, even if it is very slight, or vague? Any input would be appreciated, thanks.

EDIT: Also meant to ask, in the case that our games don't transfer on, is emulation of these downloaded games feasible in the near future (or already happening)?

[skaar]

They don't care. Buy it again.

[MASTERWEEDO]

They don't care. Buy it again.

Pretty much.

[TonyTheTiger]

I don't want to put much money into them if in a few years, the next generations of systems comes out, our downloaded games don't transfer on, and once our older system breaks, we're SOL.

I think it's mostly an unfounded fear since by the time this becomes an issue, if it ever does, the "retro" Xbox 360 will by that time be hacked to hell to the point where restoring your downloads would be a rather simple process and Microsoft would no longer have much of an interest in fighting hacks on a dead console.

[scottw182]

I think it's mostly an unfounded fear since by the time this becomes an issue, if it ever does, the "retro" Xbox 360 will by that time be hacked to hell to the point where restoring your downloads would be a rather simple process and Microsoft would no longer have much of an interest in fighting hacks on a dead console.

That's what I'm hoping for, as a backup, but it would be nicer if the games just transferred on to the next system. Is there some big problem with them doing this? It doesn't seem like it would be that hard.

Also, one problem I thought of is some of the WiiWare games require the WiiRemote (I'm pretty sure somebody said the new Blaster Master does, but I haven't played it yet), so just emulation may not be feasible for those.

[chrisbid]

new consoles are still pretty far into the future.

[scottw182]

I know we're a few years away from new systems, but I don't want to buy a ton of games just to eventually lose them. I only buy good games that I plan to keep forever, and I don't like the idea of having no insurance that I get to keep my digital copy of these games, even if my system breaks way down the road.

Already recognized that ^

[TonyTheTiger]

That's what I'm hoping for, as a backup, but it would be nicer if the games just transferred on to the next system. Is there some big problem with them doing this? It doesn't seem like it would be that hard.

Regardless of whether or not it's difficult to do, I'm not sure it's fair to impose some extra requirement on the part of publishers that wouldn't be imposed if they weren't selling digital downloads but rather physical media.

[scottw182]

Regardless of whether or not it's difficult to do, I'm not sure it's fair to impose some extra requirement on the part of publishers that wouldn't be imposed if they weren't selling digital downloads but rather physical media.

I don't know much about this sort of thing, what would be required of the publishers? Wouldn't it just be up to Nintendo/Microsoft/Sony to make sure the games downloaded to a particular account get transferred to the new system?

[YoshiM]

That's what I'm hoping for, as a backup, but it would be nicer if the games just transferred on to the next system. Is there some big problem with them doing this? It doesn't seem like it would be that hard.

Actually, the concept is harder than you think. Let's take the original Xbox and the 360, for example. The two machines run completely different hardware so in order to even offer backwards compatibility, the new system would either have to have hardware set to run the old (like the PS3 did in the beginning) or use software to emulate the old (latter PS3's and 360's own per-game BC). Problem is, programmers have to figure out how to get the emulator to make the old software work properly on the new hardware. Sometimes it works great (Halo 2, if I'm not mistaken), other times it doesn't (the Baldur's Gate games for example).

Another part of this equation is money. What kind of return is a company going to get if they make their new system backwards compatible? Sure it gives some goodwill to gamers that they can use their old games on their new systems, but in the end, is the company making any money at it? Initially they may get extra sales due to this factor but in the long haul, is it worth it? It's not like they are going to get cash from software sales on an obsolete system. With the PS3, Sony pulled PS2 hardware out to save money and shifted to software, which then was pulled from later PS3s to again save money. Only thing that stayed the same was the PS1 BC, but that's because the architecture is old enough to make it a cheap non-issue. Microsoft didn't even have backward compatibility, they added it on a per game basis but then dropped it. I don't think they're even doing any new Originals downloads anymore, but I could be wrong.

Unless these downloaded games were built on a platform that can be easily shifted (like say the console version of Direct X), I don't think developers or the console companies are going to go through the effort to allow you to port your downloaded games. Of course, they may have new versions available for you to buy but beyond that, I find it doubtful.

But hey, I've been wrong before. :)

[scottw182]

Actually, the concept is harder than you think. Let's take the original Xbox and the 360, for example. The two machines run completely different hardware so in order to even offer backwards compatibility, the new system would either have to have hardware set to run the old (like the PS3 did in the beginning) or use software to emulate the old (latter PS3's and 360's own per-game BC). Problem is, programmers have to figure out how to get the emulator to make the old software work properly on the new hardware. Sometimes it works great (Halo 2, if I'm not mistaken), other times it doesn't (the Baldur's Gate games for example).

Another part of this equation is money. What kind of return is a company going to get if they make their new system backwards compatible? Sure it gives some goodwill to gamers that they can use their old games on their new systems, but in the end, is the company making any money at it? Initially they may get extra sales due to this factor but in the long haul, is it worth it? It's not like they are going to get cash from software sales on an obsolete system. With the PS3, Sony pulled PS2 hardware out to save money and shifted to software, which then was pulled from later PS3s to again save money. Only thing that stayed the same was the PS1 BC, but that's because the architecture is old enough to make it a cheap non-issue. Microsoft didn't even have backward compatibility, they added it on a per game basis but then dropped it. I don't think they're even doing any new Originals downloads anymore, but I could be wrong.

Unless these downloaded games were built on a platform that can be easily shifted (like say the console version of Direct X), I don't think developers or the console companies are going to go through the effort to allow you to port your downloaded games. Of course, they may have new versions available for you to buy but beyond that, I find it doubtful.

But hey, I've been wrong before. :)

I guess my thinking was that these downloaded games already ran in some sort of emulated mode, as opposed to running like a regular xbox 360 game, utilizing the hardware in the same way. In that sense, it wouldn't be difficult to do the same thing on the next system. But, I guess that's not how they run, so I definitely understand it being difficult then.

As for money and "is it worth it", it just seems like a loss to them to NOT continue the games forward. They have so many games released, that sell consistently, and they're just going to let them all go once the new system is released? So they're just going to start a whole new library of download games and forget about all the old ones? I think people would continue to purchase the games if the kept them around.

[Icarus Moonsight]

Watch the PSPGo. It's the first major market test of sole digital so how it is handled and unfolds will decide much in the near future. Digital titles have great potential. Whether it winds up furthering the medium or cascading down another crash is still up in the air at this point. I'd like to think the sooner in that case, but I have to recognize the potential for shitstorm. Even if it's just us old farts raising hell. LOL

[Oobgarm]

As for money and "is it worth it", it just seems like a loss to them to NOT continue the games forward. They have so many games released, that sell consistently, and they're just going to let them all go once the new system is released? So they're just going to start a whole new library of download games and forget about all the old ones? I think people would continue to purchase the games if the kept them around.

But in the grand scheme of things, is it really worth it for the company to spend all that money and time into developing the ability to make backwards compatibility happen if they might not see a return on that investment via sales of the "legacy" software? That has to be taken into consideration.

Digital games are really no different from physical games when a new system comes out. You buy the new system, you'll be buying the new games. Take the PS2 for example, now that the PS3 has a solid foothold. There's really no market left for NEW PS2 games, 95% of what's sold nowadays is used, and the only entities getting money from that are stores and resellers. Sony sees nothing beyond the initial sale. Digital games differ in that respect since there's likely not going to be a used market for them, but how long will people still be buying them before the cost of keeping them available out-paces the revenue received from meager sales?

[Zthun]

You know what would be better? Since the download goes straight to your HD, it would be better if I could download games to a memory card and have the game branded to that card. If the card breaks, then you could go back to your account and redownload the game to a new card. At least this way, you can take the card out and play it on a different xbox (or whatever machine used this kind of method). The problem most people have with download games is that they are branded to your system, and you can't play them on your friends console elsewhere.

[kaedesdisciple]

I guess my thinking was that these downloaded games already ran in some sort of emulated mode, as opposed to running like a regular xbox 360 game, utilizing the hardware in the same way. In that sense, it wouldn't be difficult to do the same thing on the next system. But, I guess that's not how they run, so I definitely understand it being difficult then.

As for money and "is it worth it", it just seems like a loss to them to NOT continue the games forward. They have so many games released, that sell consistently, and they're just going to let them all go once the new system is released? So they're just going to start a whole new library of download games and forget about all the old ones? I think people would continue to purchase the games if the kept them around.

But that porting still requires effort and resources, both of which require money. Therefore, the authors/publishers/content distributors have a right to charge for them again on another machine. The games I have downloaded onto my 360 and Wii, as well as the physical discs I own, I recognize as licenses to play those games on THOSE machines. I do not feel a sense of entitlement that those games HAVE to transfer over onto whatever machine I buy after the ones I currently own.

They're not going to trash the old games in the coming generations. They're just going to rework them for the next system(s) and have everyone buy them again. Trust me, people WILL buy them again. And again. And again. Just ask Mario ;)

[mrbigreddog]

If they DID care, you should have already been able to play your old NES games on your Wii using the serial number on the cartridge, without having to buy it again!

[Flippy8490]

This is why I don't ever download DLC games. Only in the rare, rare occasion that something strikes me as a must have. For example, I will absolutely be purchasing Sonic 4 (Episode I) when it is released. But I do constantly worry about the games becoming obsolete.

[scottw182]

If they DID care, you should have already been able to play your old NES games on your Wii using the serial number on the cartridge, without having to buy it again!

That's not the same, it's a whole different story with download-only games. As somebody else pointed out, they're branded to that system. So, once our systems break, we're screwed. If I knew there was some way that I would be able to play them forever, even if I have to keep replacing the system if it breaks, I would be completely fine.

[BetaWolf47]

I don't like the opinion that a lot of people seem to have about "something worthwhile" only being remakes and sequels to classic games. We've got other great download-only titles, and if the memory on our current-gen systems ever goes kaput then they will be lost forever.

[TonyTheTiger]

This is why I don't ever download DLC games. Only in the rare, rare occasion that something strikes me as a must have. For example, I will absolutely be purchasing Sonic 4 (Episode I) when it is released. But I do constantly worry about the games becoming obsolete.

It's not my place to challenge people on their purchasing habits but sometimes I think people's fears of the future can stop them from enjoying the present.

We can apply the same kind of argument to MMOs. Why play an MMO when at some point the servers will get shut down? I don't play MMOs myself for different reasons but I figure if a game looks fun then why not enjoy it while it's here?

I think the reality that it's inevitable that some things will be lost to time is finally hitting video games with both digital content (mostly how it's managed by publishers) and the fact that old EEPROMs are now at the age where erasure can happen any moment now.

Film has seen this happen a lot. There are plenty of old time silent movies that are history because the film stock disintegrated. But if it happens it happens. We should try to prevent it as much as we can but it's probably better to enjoy things while we have them rather than avoid it because one day in the future it might vanish. If you avoided it and it does eventually disappear, what did you gain?

The plus side is that if we're only talking about digital content and not online servers, then the game will probably survive. Even if Mega Man 9 vanishes off WiiWare, Xbox Live, and PSN tomorrow Mega Man 9 will still exist. You'll have to jump through a few hoops to gain access to it but it will be around.

Digital content, in a sense, is probably the best way to preserve games because far in the future when every NES and NES cartridge is dust, Super Mario Bros. will still be playable on an NES emulator.

Correct me if I'm wrong but what I'm getting is that people are afraid that, say, ten years from now WiiWare will be shut down so you won't be able to download Mega Man 9 anymore. If that happens and then your Wii breaks, you're SOL if Mega Man 9 isn't also available on Nintendo's next console.

The thing is, even in this potential scenario, you won't be SOL. If you obtain another Wii you'll be able to get Mega Man 9 back on it through "methods." And, unlike how a ROM or CD-R copy of a game isn't the same as the real thing, you don't get that "it's not the same" feeling with digital data because it flat out is the same thing.

[scottw182]

It's not my place to challenge people on their purchasing habits but sometimes I think people's fears of the future can stop them from enjoying the present.

We can apply the same kind of argument to MMOs. Why play an MMO when at some point the servers will get shut down? I don't play MMOs myself for different reasons but I figure if a game looks fun then why not enjoy it while it's here?

I think the reality that it's inevitable that some things will be lost to time is finally hitting video games with both digital content (and how it's managed by publishers) and the fact that old EEPROMs are now at the age where erasure can happen any moment now.

Film has seen this happen a lot. There are plenty of old time silent movies that are history because the film stock disintegrated. But if it happens it happens. We should try to prevent it as much as we can but it's probably better to enjoy things while we have them rather than avoid it because one day in the future it might vanish. If you avoided it and it does eventually disappear, what did you gain?

The plus side is that if we're only talking about digital content and not online servers, then the game will probably survive. Even if Mega Man 9 vanishes off WiiWare, Xbox Live, and PSN tomorrow Mega Man 9 will still exist. You'll have to jump through a few hoops to gain access to it but it will be around.

Digital content, in a sense, is probably the best way to preserve data because far in the future when every NES and NES cartridge is dust, Super Mario Bros. will still be playable on an NES emulator.

You make a good point, but, my situation is a bit different. I work full time and have a wife and baby. In a typical week, I have very little time for video games. So basically, my plan is to gather all of my favorites games, and the games I hope to play one day, and then I can just work on them 1 by 1, even it takes years upon years. So, I don't just have all the time in the world right now to please these download-only games, I probably wouldn't be able to get to them for quite some time. It's not very reassuring to know that I'm at the mercy of when these companies stop supporting the systems and downloaded content.

EDIT: All of that was in response to the first 4 paragraphs, I didn't even see the rest of that until after I posted. Like I said, emulation (and hacking in general) are my fall-back methods.

[YoshiM]

That's not the same, it's a whole different story with download-only games. As somebody else pointed out, they're branded to that system. So, once our systems break, we're screwed. If I knew there was some way that I would be able to play them forever, even if I have to keep replacing the system if it breaks, I would be completely fine.

As long as the systems are still supported and repairable by the manufacturers, you shouldn't worry about not being able to play downloaded games for a while.

As for playing forever, like the saying goes, nothing is forever.

[Leo_A]

I think it's mostly an unfounded fear since by the time this becomes an issue, if it ever does, the "retro" Xbox 360 will by that time be hacked to hell to the point where restoring your downloads would be a rather simple process and Microsoft would no longer have much of an interest in fighting hacks on a dead console.

While I hope so, I think if we reach the time where this does become a legitimate issue and the system hasn't yet been hacked, it never will. The minute a replacement console will be around, the hackers are going to be moving on to that one and potentially leave this one mostly secure.


That's what I'm hoping for, as a backup, but it would be nicer if the games just transferred on to the next system. Is there some big problem with them doing this? It doesn't seem like it would be that hard.


For that to even be possibly, they'd have to be backwards compatible. Look how easy that was for Microsoft and Sony to achieve this time. It's not going to be any easier the next time around since these systems are even more complicated, costly, and difficult to emulate or integrate critical chips into their new consoles.

And Nintendo's going to find it tough as well since they surely aren't going to release something again that is at it's heart, just a GameCube.


I guess my thinking was that these downloaded games already ran in some sort of emulated mode, as opposed to running like a regular xbox 360 game, utilizing the hardware in the same way. In that sense, it wouldn't be difficult to do the same thing on the next system.

Emulated mode of what? All DLC refers to is the distribution model. The code isn't developed any differently than for a release on disc.


But in the grand scheme of things, is it really worth it for the company to spend all that money and time into developing the ability to make backwards compatibility happen if they might not see a return on that investment via sales of the "legacy" software?

There's benefits besides just ongoing sales of legacy software, such as encouraging people to adopt your new console since they know they can continue to play existing software on their new system. A company like Microsoft or Nintendo didn't make their latest consoles BC (Partially in the case of the 360) because of legacy sales, new Xbox and GameCube titles had mostly dried up by the time they were replaced.

Those benefits that encouraged them to impliment BC in the past are still there, just now they can also utilize it to sell us past software in download form.


If they DID care, you should have already been able to play your old NES games on your Wii using the serial number on the cartridge, without having to buy it again!

Nonsense


As long as the systems are still supported and repairable by the manufacturers, you shouldn't worry about not being able to play downloaded games for a while.

As for playing forever, like the saying goes, nothing is forever.

I think everyone is aware of that. This thread is about what's going to happen a few years after these consoles are replaced, the point where Microsoft is now at with the Xbox, having dropped customer support for it a while back and the upcoming closure of Xbox Live.

[Gameguy]

You know what would be better? Since the download goes straight to your HD, it would be better if I could download games to a memory card and have the game branded to that card. If the card breaks, then you could go back to your account and redownload the game to a new card. At least this way, you can take the card out and play it on a different xbox (or whatever machine used this kind of method). The problem most people have with download games is that they are branded to your system, and you can't play them on your friends console elsewhere.
What would stop people from downloading the game to several memory cards and giving/selling them to other people?

As much as I dislike games only available through download, it's going to continue. They make as much sense as going to a movie theater or using a rental store, yet those have been around for ages and still do well. The download only games might be released as a compilation in the future, long after the systems die out. Sure you'll have to buy them again, but what's new about having to do that?

[IcBlUsCrN]

i hate this whole download game crap. i downloaded a bunch of xbl games when i had internet , then shockingly my 360 died , now cant play the games unless i re-download the games ? well thats tough to do without the internet. same thing as f they stopped supporting the games in the future. You buy some games now then lets say you wont be able to transfer to a next gen console , you better hope your hardware does not break or your screwed. I should be able to swap my 360 hdd and play games right of the bat.
I did get a psp go that seems to manage the games a bit different but i am not sure.

[Leo_A]

i hate this whole download game crap. i downloaded a bunch of xbl games when i had internet , then shockingly my 360 died , now cant play the games unless i re-download the games ?

You don't have to repurchase or redownload anything. Just get the internet again and you'll be able to access your games (Just by logging into Xbox Live) and you'll also be able to use the transfer utility (Shouldn't even need that, MS usually starts the process for you if you had actually read the documentation that came with your repaired 360) to regain offline access to your content.

Why are you so shocked that you can't just play your games offline on a different 360? These aren't freebies, they're games being sold for profit, they're not just going to toss them on to their website and let you burn them to a cd-r or dvd-r and ask nicely to please not take advantage of this unless you've purchased these games.

[monkeychemist]

I guess we'll have to download a bunch of "backup" games in the future...just make sure to delete them within 24 hours :p

[maxlords]

I figure the stuff I REALLY like, a lot of other people will really like as well. And that most of that will EVENTUALLY get hacked when we move to the next generation or so and I'll just be able to DL it. To be honest, I barely EVER touch DLC, even when I've bought it, so if we go DLC only.....*shiveR*

[WCP]

in the case that our games don't transfer on, is emulation of these downloaded games feasible in the near future (or already happening)?

Well, according to some Craigslist ads I've seen for various mod services, this is already happening. This one dude on Craigslist is selling a modded Xbox 360 that has some special type of hack to it. He claims that he can connect an external USB HDD to it, and he has hundreds of Xbox Live Arcade games on it.

So, if this is actually legit, and they have figured out a way to rip XBLA games, then I think it's pretty safe to assume that at some point in the future they will figure out how to emulate them. So, I'm guessing 20 years from now, if you want to play Splosion Man, there will be a way to play it.

[ScourDX]

The way I see it, console DLC & downloaded games will be in the hands of the publisher. You basically obtain the license to play it. Once the console is dead and the online service is dead, you have no way to recover it. Halo 2 fans learn of this couple of weeks ago when Microsoft decided to end the Live service. This means you have no right or control over your purchased item. It sucks, but life goes on.

Hopefully in the future PC will have the ability to run Xbox360, PS3, Wii games and their respected DLC.

[Icarus Moonsight]

The way I see it, console DLC & downloaded games will be in the hands of the publisher. You basically obtain the license to play it. Once the console is dead and the online service is dead, you have no way to recover it. Halo 2 fans learn of this couple of weeks ago when Microsoft decided to end the Live service. This means you have no right or control over your purchased item. It sucks, but life goes on.

Hopefully in the future PC will have the ability to run Xbox360, PS3, Wii games and their respected DLC.

Naw, the boxes will get cracked and anyone will be able to run the DL stuff through p2p/torrent grabs (you can already run almost anything on a Wii now through ext HDDs and the SDslot). No need to run to another platform, though that is still an option.

That would set a bad precedent that threatens future digital distribution's viability. They almost have to plan for carry-over, as a matter of course. The first steps of the PSPGo and original Xbox stuff is troubling, but it's just the first steps out. Plans will refocus and change depending on need. Or, at least we'd hope...

Halo 2 online play is something completely different and unrelated. I think that it is completely reasonable to expect the actual content and games themselves to carry-over, but online service... No. Now, if enough people want to do something different and rework Halo 2 so that custom servers can be used (like PSO still gets played online) instead of Live, that's great. To expect a company to continue to support online connectivity forever is wishful thinking mixed with willful ignorance.

[YoshiM]

I think everyone is aware of that. This thread is about what's going to happen a few years after these consoles are replaced, the point where Microsoft is now at with the Xbox, having dropped customer support for it a while back and the upcoming closure of Xbox Live.

I know that (I had a post earlier). I was trying to cook up a response to go with my second post but I hit "submit" and slapped my head afterward but didn't have time to fix it up.

Historically, there really wasn't much support and possible consumer interest in the terms of back/cross compatibility. Did anyone really give much of a hoot that they could play their Atari VCS games on a 7800 or bought an adapter to play VCS games on a 5200? How many people really went out to get Master System converters for their Sega Genesis? How many people complained that they couldn't play their NES games on a SNES? Was BC all that sought after when the PS2 came out? The concept is essentially a "good will" approach to get those people who are on the fence who invested a bunch of money in the last system and don't want another game system hooked up to their TV.

In my second yet dumb post I was going to touch on PC software as the concept is kinda similar. Granted there really wasn't much in "download only" software, but the fact that one really can't run a lot of programs from the 80's and early 90's on a modern machine right out of the box falls in line with the worries of not being able to use current DLC and such on future consoles. In PC land I'm guessing a majority of people seem to be "ok" with not being able to run the "old stuff" on their modern machines. True Microsoft has bent over backwards to try and keep compatibility with past versions of Windows (and DOS to a degree) but something had to give eventually. I don't know of anyone who still uses the old DOS versions of Wordperfect. My wife doesn't care that the quote spewing "Sage" software she bought in 1992 doesn't run on anything past Windows 3.11. I can't play "The Magic Candle" on my Vista machine as is. I tried, won't start. I can't play "Legend of Kyrandia" on any of my PCs as they are no longer equipped with floppy drives. For people who paid the money for these old games and applications that can't use them anymore, does it matter? I'm thinking for a majority-no, it doesn't. In most cases, the floppies are worthless and get tossed, not unlike letting DLC and downloaded games go down with an obsolete console.

What's Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo going to do? Honestly, who knows? At best the "big sellers" of PSN, XBL and WiiWare will get ported to the new systems and for a nominal fee you can upgrade to the new versions. DLC like Rock Band or Guitar Hero, if the companies allow it for the new versions, might be able to be ported or repurchased again for a nominal fee (hey, there was a charge for Rock Band 2 to have your Rock Band 1 songs on the disc to be ported, it's not far fetched). In the middle Microsoft and Sony might allow you to tie your downloaded games to your machines so they can be played offline (in the case of Microsoft, turning off the 12 month wait requirement or being more liberal with the machine-marrying) and at worst, no support at all.

In the end, I guess it's down to the individual and their value. Personally I went through the loss of some DL'd games from my first 360 (it was used and had games married to the hardware from another account and was not under warranty due to the case being removed and painted). A majority of the games I didn't care about too much and was able to replace the important games (Pac-Man CE) with the purchase of an Arcade unit. If after years I can't play the games anymore, no big deal to me. They were cheap and I got my entertainment value out of them.