NayusDante is developing an 8-bit RPG

[NayusDante]

I'm working on an 8-bit RPG for Microsoft's Xbox Live Indie Games (XNA), and I'm trying to gather some opinions on the old games that everyone remembers. What are the elements that made Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest, etc fun and enjoyable? What do you remember the most? What did you hate about them?

I don't want to give too much away, but the story is about a man going back and replaying that one 8-bit RPG that he grew up with, viewing it the way he remembers it. As such, player opinion has a big role in the story. Before I get too far in constructing the world, dungeons, plot structure, etc, I'd like to get some input from other people who grew up playing these games.

[BetaWolf47]

Well, I didn't actually play 8-bit RPGs until a few years ago. Here's what is charming about them though:

-A gigantic overworld that has a huge exploration element
-A lot of RPG cliches (grinding, an early heal spell, early fireball spell, equips, random encounters, etc.)
-A trademark monster (moogles, slimes, like-likes)
-At least one dungeon with a hidden entrance
-Primitive plots and little character development
-Kings and castles

[Zoltor]

To put it simply, Gameplay over graphics.

To be more specific: Good systems( the battle system is key, if that sucks or is boring,the game Isn't gonna be that good, and no, I'm not talking about a battle egine/animation, I'm talking about the actual mechanics of batter, ie the commands. Also by the love that is all good, and right, deffinitely go with random encounters), also Customization of some sort a huge part as well, so in one way or another have a ton of customization/control over the dirrection of your char.

You can never have enough Side Quests or end game stuff to do, the more the better.

Then you want to tie everything together with awesome story lines(think FF 6, the Lufia games or Chrono Trigger story wise).

Another thing would have to be good map/dungeon design(This is another important thing, if your maps(maps as in dungeon layout, and terrain/places on the world map) are cheap/simplistic, It's gonna take alot of fun out of the RPG aspect of the "RPG", so please expect to spend thousands of hours making maps, if you short play this aspect, your game(despite how good the story is) will seem boring.

Example of good 8 bit design: FF1, DQ2,3 are all around the best in map design.

PS. That gives you most of the major things to focus on. However if you can afford it(or if know some friend who are awesome at writing music), you really, really want there to be awesome RPG style music, bad music can actually ruin what otherwise would be a good game, so you'll want to put atleast some effort in that.

[NayusDante]

How long should an 8-bit RPG be, in terms of how many dungeons, how much backtracking, etc? What percentage of the content should be optional?

[AB Positive]

I'm replaying FF1 for the upteenth million time, so as a point of reference...

1) some sort of rock/paper/scissors magic system works well. See: Final Fantasy (you mean hitting the guy made of ice with a fireball does more damage?), pokemon

2) Difficulty level. For the 8-bit 'japanese' style RPGs, the sweet spot tends to be a bit higher than average difficulty, without becoming ridiculously hard. A.k.a. you almost have to do some early grinding to be ready for what's ahead. You don't want someone to breeze through the first two dungeons you make in less than an hour.

3) For lack of a better word, "Charm". Gameplay has to be paramount over plot/setting but the setting has to at least support the gameplay.

I'm working on a more modern-day RPG but it really does come down to the battle system. Get that wrong and every other aspect could be 100% tops and no one will care.

[Misto]

I think abut 5-9 mandatory dungeons is a good amount for most RPGs. I don't recall the 8-bit RPGs to have as much backtracking as later RPGs for more advacned systems (space restrictions?) but it might be a good idea to add a bunch of small side-quests and maybe an optional dungeon or two.

As for a percentage, that depends on how much you can work into the game without it feeling too repetitive, just try to vary the kinds of quests. I would say you could probably get away with anywhere from 20-50% of optional stuff, depending on how linear you want the game to be.

I'd like to add that I agree with Betawolf about the cliches. You should try to add some of those in, but you may want to add a more comedy twist with them for younger gamers who may not have experienced the 8-bit era.

And with what other people said, the battle system is one of the most important part, you should try to come up with something at least semi-original and not try to make it overly complicated.

Also if you need any help, I've worked with XNA some and have done sprite work before.

[Zoltor]

How long should an 8-bit RPG be, in terms of how many dungeons, how much backtracking, etc? What percentage of the content should be optional?

Atleast a dozen, non optional dungeons(even that is still probally a bit low, I would go upward of 20 to be safe, if not more), and ofcourse the more the merrier, just be sure to have them play into an actual story(after all, you don't want the game to just feel drawn out/feel repetative).

As many bonus/side quest dungeons as you can think up, just be sure to make it fun, and have decent stories tied to the side quests. Also try to make each side quest differant from one another(after all, 1,000 side quests that feel the same, Isn't fun).

Backtracking is good, but I would leave 60-75% of the backtracking to Side Questing, and end game quests, but having some within the story play, is a +for sure.

I say, probally 50%, if not just about the same size of the main game should be optional, but whatever you do, don't sacrifice main game to do optional stuff(aka meaning don't make the main game short by any standards, just to have a seemingly big amount of optional stuff).

[Richter Belmount]

You need a fun battle system and a decent story. I find it hilarious that people used to think the stories in 8 bit rpgs were engaging back when they were released.

[jonebone]

Corny spell names like FIRE, FIR2, FIR3 and CURE, CUR2, CUR3.

[Jorpho]

http://project-apollo.net/text/rpg.html

'Nuff said.

[chrisbid]

hmm

rpgs were the 'big' games of the 8 bit era. they took hours and hours of grinding to complete. action games also took a long time to finish... except once mastered, these games took less than a couple of hours. they couldnt be finished in one sitting, and had battery backup.

this was a big novelty in the 80s. something that is difficult to recreate in an effort of nostalgia.

i dont know if this is the direction you want to go in, as its been done before, but you could make this game somewhat of a parody of an rpg instead of a tribute.

as an example, if you saw the two grindhouse movies, deathproof was a tribute while planet terror was a parody.

of course you can combine the two, kindof like links awakening on gameboy

i cant wait to see the result either way




as for specific features

lots of pallete swapping
lots of carbon copy generic npcs
one musical instrument with mystical powers
at least one illogical, convoluted, insanely nonsensical puzzle with incredibly crypic clues (think playing the flute to open level 7 in zelda)
and include at least an option for insane grinding (think phantasy star ii)

[NayusDante]

I'd appreciate some comments on my overworld map (http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4051/4365963992_62b4b2db18_b.jpg), which is about half done right now. I'll probably be posting more stuff here as I progress for some feedback.

I'm definitely going with 20 dungeons in the main story, and maybe 10 optional. That includes 5 elemental shrines (think FF crystals, but add one for "time" where the game starts glitching). Before each shrine, there will be two towers that hold the keys to entering the shrine. The last 5 dungeons are endgame, including three "boss rush" towers.

How much palette swapping is acceptable? I do plan to use the same tilesets a few times, but what's a good number of uses for each? How many palette swaps are acceptable for monsters?

[Damaramu]

Please don't forget the idle animation for characters in the overworld map view (or when you're in a town or castle for that matter).

http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/2403/soldier1front.gif

[Zoltor]

I'd appreciate some comments on my overworld map (http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4051/4365963992_62b4b2db18_b.jpg), which is about half done right now. I'll probably be posting more stuff here as I progress for some feedback.

I'm definitely going with 20 dungeons in the main story, and maybe 10 optional. That includes 5 elemental shrines (think FF crystals, but add one for "time" where the game starts glitching). Before each shrine, there will be two towers that hold the keys to entering the shrine. The last 5 dungeons are endgame, including three "boss rush" towers.

How much palette swapping is acceptable? I do plan to use the same tilesets a few times, but what's a good number of uses for each? How many palette swaps are acceptable for monsters?

The world map so far is great, nice job.

Actually, it depends what you mean, if you mean with monsters, the more completely differant monsters you have the better, but if you are just looking for a few fillers or trying to make a family of monsters, just make sure you never have more then three of the same monsters, with a different Pallet, "NEVER".

2 is a very safe number of reusing monster sprites though, so don't be scared to, if you feel the need to do so.

With dungeons, and tows exc. It's cunstomary to use primarily the same colours, as the other places of that type(Aka, Cave dungeons use one set of colours, Towers use another, and so on), you can add new colour scemes here, and there, but I wouldn't go overboard with it, as it will surely be a waste of time for nothing special(the only exception is, if you are gonna make a dungeon randomization system, like the 100 floor Ancient Cave in Lufia 2, then ofcourse you would want to have multiple colour schemes for dungeons, instead of just one for each type of dungeon).

[NayusDante]

Please don't forget the idle animation for characters in the overworld map view (or when you're in a town or castle for that matter).

http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/2403/soldier1front.gif

I'm actually leaning more toward the Final Fantasy style, where one frame is idle, and there is an in-step frame that alternates with the idle frame for walking. In Dragon Quest, everyone is constantly walking. I prefer the FF style, but the DQ style is probably more iconic of 8-bit RPGs...

After you finish the game, I'm definitely unlocking the "original" game, without the enhancements that the player remembered, and that might be one of the differences.

[Fuyukaze]

I loved the DQ series. Start off with a goal in mind like saving a princess and then find out that was only half the fight. FF was good but I was never crazy over the NES offerings. My favorite parts would be....

An obvious goal-save the village, save the country, save the king/princess, but save someone/something. As long as it isnt the world.
Dungeons that feel important and arnt there just to kill time.
NPCs that give clues what next to do but dont outright say it.
I'll second that paper rock scissors but add in an all powerfull attack that does atleast 75% of the elements main damage but cant be blocked by resistances.

things I hate.....
grinding. I loath grinding so much. fight the same monsters over and over and over for hours on end just to spend 5 minutes beating some mid level boss that isnt going to further the story much, isnt going to give you some item/weapon/armor/spell that'll be usefull in the last quarter of the game.
fantasy settings. it's so great that everyone loves dragons, pixies, castles, and evil demons but for crying out loud, there's more. there is more. a modern day RPG or a future themed RPG would be good. the staples can still make apperances, but they dont need to be the only thing in it.


As I dont deal in d/l only games I can only apologize in advance for not supporting your game. That said, I hope it goes well and recieves great sucsess.

[Wraith Storm]

How long should an 8-bit RPG be, in terms of how many dungeons, how much backtracking, etc? What percentage of the content should be optional?

Honestly, the length of the story should determine how many dungeons and side quests that there are.

Side quests are not a bad thing but most RPGs can't get them right. I used to love Golden Sun but playing it now I can barely stand it. It is filled with side quest after side quest that feel as if they are nothing more than filler. So many side quests kill any sense of progression. Final Fantasy 1 had side quests, but they felt relevant to the story and justified. So be careful and don't throw a bunch in there just to extend the length of the game.

A perfect example of a "no filler" game would be Panzer Dragoon Saga. It was virtually 100% story with no side quests and it still clocked in at around 20 hours. Because of this I have played it over and over again as opposed to a 40 or 50 hour RPG that I have only played once because it is stuffed with filler quests and gets bogged down.

Length doesn't make a good game. The game should only be as long as it needs to be.

Also as Zoltor said above, you need to have a great "chiptune" OST for the game. Also some really nice pixel art. No flash style or pre-rendered graphics. I want to see the pixels and color pallets of everything in the game. I want to be able to count the animations of people when they walk.

[ryborg]

Don't include LAMP or AMUT spells.

[Lord_Magus]

Simplicity

[DuckTalesNES]

I really like the idea of having a sidequest where you just fight a ton of dudes and its really hard. I haven't played a ton of RPG's yet but I know they have this in Paper Mario and I really liked it. Its nice to know you're going into some intense fights ahead of time and seeing how you can do, and its a nice way to level up instead of just having to walk around.

[NayusDante]

I do like the arena concept. I'll try to work that in somewhere, but I'm not sure if it should be THE alternative to monster grinding.

Map Update... (http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/6470/mapda.png)

I'm going to start working on towns and dungeons tonight. I'm going to do a lot of easy dungeons, but at the end they'll probably get pretty crazy. How much time should one average dungeon take to complete, without finding every single treasure chest?

[Zoltor]

I do like the arena concept. I'll try to work that in somewhere, but I'm not sure if it should be THE alternative to monster grinding.

Map Update... (http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/6470/mapda.png)

I'm going to start working on towns and dungeons tonight. I'm going to do a lot of easy dungeons, but at the end they'll probably get pretty crazy. How much time should one average dungeon take to complete, without finding every single treasure chest?

There should be monster grinding of "some type" required, if not, means the game is way to easy(coastable).

It depends, the first 2 or 3 dungeons are bound to not be that complex(after all you don't want to overwhelm someone with that when they first start playing), so they may only take a few hours tops, howerever upwardrd to 3Q through, you could probally expect to spend between 2-3 days on average to make one dungeon, depending on how many floors ofcourse, it could take longer(and yet this is also alowing you to eat, sleep, and otherwise take a small break every so often).

Later in the game(the last quarter) you could easily spend upwards of 2 weeks trying to design a really good dungeon that is fairly deep, but not overwhelmingly so(I created such a map for a game in the past, and although it was only 7 floors, it was very complex. Infact I had to write a 3 page readme file, so the coder would even know what to do with it).

Needless to say though, even spending upwards of 2 weeks to make a dungeon really Isn't all that long(especially compared to coding, and playtesting), besides making maps/dungeons are fun as hell.

Town maps can take anywhere from a few hours to like 3 days, depending on how important/big of a place you want it to be.

PS. Is your map done? It seems like the 2 westernmost land masses could use more terrain(specifically I would go with some mountain ranges), also although I'm sure I may have over looked some, it could use a few more towns, and from what I can tell, a bunch of more Dungeons, towers/places of interest.

[Misto]

I agree with Zoltor about your map, it looks good so far but you might want to add a few more types of terrain(snow, islands, mountain ranges, etc) to give some variety.

He's also right about the time to create a dungeon, don't be surprised if you find yourself working on one for several weeks.

Complex ones can take lots of time to get just right and even simple mistakes can make a dungeon very frustrating for the player. In addition to design, you will want to play through the dungeon yourself and possibly get other people to test out the design to point out potential flaws.

[Zoltor]

I agree with Zoltor about your map, it looks good so far but you might want to add a few more types of terrain(snow, islands, mountain ranges, etc) to give some variety.

He's also right about the time to create a dungeon, don't be surprised if you find yourself working on one for several weeks.

Complex ones can take lots of time to get just right and even simple mistakes can make a dungeon very frustrating for the player. In addition to design, you will want to play through the dungeon yourself and possibly get other people to test out the design to point out potential flaws.

Omg don't even get me started on little mistakes, that will most likely turn into big mistakes, by the time you notice, that you even made a mistake to begin with.

All I can say is, double check, no triple check the alignment of stuff, make sure It's exactly where you want it, because even on screen(unless you zoom in) although it may look lined up on screen, it may very well be off, and if you don't catch it until you are about done with the floor, the odds are, you'll have to redo the entire floor.

[Kitsune Sniper]

No androgynous male characters. No J-pop. No hammy voice acting.

[NayusDante]

I was actually talking about how long it should take a player to work through a dungeon, not how long it should take to design the dungeon itself.

The overworld isn't nearly done, I still haven't even put the towers in yet. Town placement is just as I go along, wherever it seems like a town would fit. I'll probably add snow, but I'm not sure about adding any more beyond that. Maybe I'll cap the tileset at 40 tiles, I'm at 31 now without the towers. I'd rather keep it at 35 if I can...

[Zoltor]

I was actually talking about how long it should take a player to work through a dungeon, not how long it should take to design the dungeon itself.

The overworld isn't nearly done, I still haven't even put the towers in yet. Town placement is just as I go along, wherever it seems like a town would fit. I'll probably add snow, but I'm not sure about adding any more beyond that. Maybe I'll cap the tileset at 40 tiles, I'm at 31 now without the towers. I'd rather keep it at 35 if I can...

I so wouldn't design a dungeon based on a percieved sweet time count(the sweet time is probally between 30 min to an hour if you must know), It's a bad way of doing things, if not completely impractical(as there are many different reasons why a dungeon may take less or more time).

As long as you don't have a bunch of non optional dungeons taking 2 hours or more, you probally shouldn't even worry about that.

[vintagegamecrazy]

I like the idea of snow on the map, maybe you could even do an area of lava or marsh, or like Breath of Fire where you go under water. Possibly a day and night implement even if just for aesthetic appearance.

Don't make spells that you need a guide for the tell what each one is, ie Final Fantasy 1 or Phantasy Star II, make the name of each spell distinctive or have a description field explaining what each one is.

[mobiusclimber]

I always loved games that did the DQ open-world thing: you could go just about anywhere so long as you were strong enough to handle the enemies. AD&D Warriors of the Eternal Sun for the Genny was another game like that. If you went over the bridge, you had to be ready for an ass-whooping. They didn't do that whole "the bridge is out right now until you go fetch this and find this and do that" nonsense.

[Kitsune Sniper]

I always loved games that did the DQ open-world thing: you could go just about anywhere so long as you were strong enough to handle the enemies. AD&D Warriors of the Eternal Sun for the Genny was another game like that. If you went over the bridge, you had to be ready for an ass-whooping. They didn't do that whole "the bridge is out right now until you go fetch this and find this and do that" nonsense.

I actually hated that in the original Final Fantasy. Wandering somewhere that I wasn't supposed to go to and getting murdered in two turns, that is.

[kupomogli]

When I originally played the original Dragon Warrior I loved it, there wasn't any game I played that was like it. After playing Final Fantasy and then later on Dragon Warrior 3 I started to dislike the game for the amount of sheer grinding. Some grinding is fine, but too much and the game because a bore.

-May or may not have to grind one or two levels each new area. Grinding is not fun when the amount is ridiculous such as the original Dragon Warrior.

-Weapons/Armor/Magic should be expensive enough not to be able to buy them once going to a new town, however, affordable enough that you can get the items without first putting in enough experience for five level ups for a single weapon.

-Dying and losing half your gold.

-Four characters.

-Character customization. Classes. Whether it's four starting classes with no class change(Ultima,) an upgrade(Final Fantasy,) or where you can class change later in the game(Dragon Warrior 3.) Also make the classes different. Don't do something like on FF3 with multiple classes all of them seeming to be exactly the same but a few and different weapon types.

-Special equipment. Flame Sword, Ice Sword, Excalibur, etc. Also equipment that can use special abilities. Make the items average power and acquired late in the game so they're effective for their cost(free) but not powerful enough to really turn the tide of the battle.

-Different slash/attack animations(if Dragon Warrior Phantasy Star first person battle style,) different weapon graphics(if Final Fantasy side battle style.)

-Rare powerful enemies that can be found randomly by walking in certain areas. Warmech was my first experience of this, and even though I died when running into him the very first time since I tried to fight, it was an awesome experience knowing I can later on go back.

-Storyline mainly through NPCs that walk around in towns etc so if you want the story you talk to the characters and find background about the game. NPC text that changes after every major part of the game.

Most of what I like from 8bit RPGs are pulled from Final Fantasy because it's not only my favorite 8bit RPG, but it's pretty high on my list of favorite games.

[Arkhan]

short version:
K.I.S.S

long version:
dont crap the game up with an "innovative character system". Thats buzzword talk for "Advanced Math Degree required!"

no crafting, no emphasis on stupid sidequests.

Cliche stories are ok. Lifes a cliche. You have to have relatable characters, interesting/diverse towns, and a memorable world overall.

The battle system doesn't need to be some intricate NASA experiment. Something as herp-derp as Dragon Quest is still in use today. Those kind of games put way more emphasis on story/playing the game than any other.

The world doesn't HAVE to be huge. Ys is tiny. The trick to the tiny ones is, you can weave a more intricate story and towns. The towns seem almost real in the Ys games. You know who everyone is, everyone in the game knows who everyone is, and it just seems very realistic!

the opposite, and still good concept are the FF/DQ/Even the Ultimas: Huge world, lots of exploring/investigating, lots of dungeon crawling, and strategic use of leveling/items/spells........

those kind of games, as long as you keep the story going, the dungeons exciting, and the music entertaining, you are set.

[NayusDante]

There's two distinct styles of towns... Again boiling down to FF and DQ.

FF:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2641/4367541103_c88ed97fa3_o.png


DQ:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2792/4367541075_284a3ba9fa_o.png


FF uses separate maps for buildings, while DQ buildings are wide open with no (visible) roof. FF style involves making separate maps for every building (or putting them off-screen on the same map) while DQ is everything right there. Could I get some comments on these, or maybe suggestions for alternative styles?

[chrisbid]

actually, with dq, when you enter some buildings, only the inside of the building is visible. i think this is the best approach

i dont really care for the buildings that look like tiny shacks on the outside but turn out to be mansions on the inside... though this could also be played for laughs

[jcalder8]

I may have missed it but I didn't see any talk about Random battles. To me this is an integral part of old style RPGs, but I also know lots of people hate them.

I don't know anything about game design so I don't know if it would be doable or not but with the story line that you are going for it would be great if the user could pick a few basic options such as: grinding, random battles, "die if you take a left at the bridge instead of a right" This way you are basing the game on what the user remembers about 8bit RPGs rather than what you want them to remember about them.

Just a thought.

[Arkhan]

the DQ style houses/buildings where the roof disappears and you are inside without breaking the flow of the game are quite possibly the best style of buildings.

The only time entering a building should go to a new screen is if the new screen is an FF1 or Ys style shop!

FF1 did in fact have rooms and such similar to DQ. Anything shop/inn related was a separate room but it was worth the switch. Music change, nice big interface :) Good stuff.

Ys style is the same sort of deal. The shops are nice big pictures. It would be lame if Adol walked in the shop, changed screens, and then had to ram into the shopkeep to get a pokey little menu.

[DDCecil]

Something I personally like in Ultima: Quest of the Avatar and Final Fantasy 3 is that there are fake walls that lead to some random treasure, a hidden NPC, or a shortcut. When I made my Final Fantasy NES hack awhile back, I made sure to have a bunch of them.

http://img682.imageshack.us/img682/4062/18751179.png
I'm also one of those people who would search just about every single square of the entire overworld plus the towns and dungeons of Dragon Warrior 1-4 trying to find hidden things on the ground with the search command. They was usually nothing, but I loved doing it.

[NayusDante]

Hmmm. What about this:

Shops are like DQ where the outside tiles are hidden and and the store is 1:1 to what it looked like outside. Houses and pubs, however, would be spatially disproportionate, and go to separate maps. That way, if I need extra NPCs in a store or something, I can put them there. FF1 was always odd to me, how the entire screen changes for stores.

I do like the idea of different music on store maps, but that would require separate map files. Anything where the music doesn't change, I can just put on the same map but off to the side.

[Flippy8490]

Charming character and weapon animations and SECRETS. Finding secrets is half of the fun in these types of games, and good rewards for finding them is key. It inspires people to search them out and extends playtime by ridiculous amounts.

[AB Positive]

I was going to say, before you finished your map, that the southern most continent really screams for being a snow-land. If you put snow/ice on the overworld anywhere, that southern crescent island would seem right.

[NayusDante]

Updated map... (http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/9844/mapg.png)

Added the 10 towers... err... forgot the two for the time shrine at the center. They're on either side of the broken bridges now.

I'm not sure about it... Should I snow-ify that crescent to the northwest of it?

How many more towns should I add? I'm at like 8 or so now.

[Jorpho]

I'd be much more worried about the battle engine before I'd start devoting time to the maps. But maybe that's just me.

[Arkhan]

I do like the idea of different music on store maps, but that would require separate map files. Anything where the music doesn't change, I can just put on the same map but off to the side.

nothing is stopping you from having tiles that change the music. :)



I'd be much more worried about the battle engine before I'd start devoting time to the maps. But maybe that's just me.

Agreed. I would also be worried about a story, etc.

If you don't have a story and world made up, you might as well spend time getting engine-aspects done while you come up with ideas.

Asking "should I add more towns" leads me to think you haven't got a definite story, etc. yet. Better get one! :)

[Zoltor]

I may have missed it but I didn't see any talk about Random battles. To me this is an integral part of old style RPGs, but I also know lots of people hate them.

I don't know anything about game design so I don't know if it would be doable or not but with the story line that you are going for it would be great if the user could pick a few basic options such as: grinding, random battles, "die if you take a left at the bridge instead of a right" This way you are basing the game on what the user remembers about 8bit RPGs rather than what you want them to remember about them.

Just a thought.

Actually I did mention it, there needs to be random battles for sure, but I figured that was a given, so I only briefly mentioned it.

[PresidentLeever]

FF1 was always odd to me, how the entire screen changes for stores.


I actually liked that style in for example Phantasy Star or Ys, because it made the experience of shopping more vivid and it's also a good opportunity to show off your pixel art skills ;)


Map is looking great btw, all it needs is a floating island or underwater empire.

[jb143]

I'd be much more worried about the battle engine before I'd start devoting time to the maps. But maybe that's just me.



Agreed. I would also be worried about a story, etc.

If you don't have a story and world made up, you might as well spend time getting engine-aspects done while you come up with ideas.

Asking "should I add more towns" leads me to think you haven't got a definite story, etc. yet. Better get one! :)

One could also argue that the instant visual satisfaction of creating a map can be a bigger modivator than starting off plodding though code and story, especially when one doesn't quite know how they want to emplement the games features to make it as fun as possible. Once he knows an audiences expectations of how many towns and dungeons, what the shops should look like, etc... then it could make sense to design the story around that. Instead of completely writting the story but then having to alter it later for whatever reason.

[Zoltor]

One could also argue that the instant visual satisfaction of creating a map can be a bigger modivator than starting off plodding though code and story, especially when one doesn't quite know how they want to emplement the games features to make it as fun as possible. Once he knows an audiences expectations of how many towns and dungeons, what the shops should look like, etc... then it could make sense to design the story around that. Instead of completely writting the story but then having to alter it later for whatever reason.

Exactly, not only is making maps fun as hell(and could easily help you with ideas, story wise), but something for the game, is actually done, making it more unluckly you'll just scrap the game, if you run into a coding problem(except from coding the properties of a map"can you walk there or not", coding Isn't easy, and It's very time consuming), so It's actually better to make the maps first(he should probally make the sprites of the first area monsters as well, since he'll actually need them, to test the battle system out, when that is made).

[Jorpho]

but something for the game, is actually done, making it more unluckly you'll just scrap the gameAlas, it doesn't make it that much more unluckly. I've seen more than a few plans for RPGs that went up in smoke even with pretty decent maps and decent stories all thought out.

[jb143]

That's because it's a pretty rare breed that actually finish what they start.

[AbnormalMapping]

If this is about a man going back and playing a game he used to enjoy...

Why not use the bad things about games back then? Not throughout, but just sometimes. Perhaps it might even be optional.

To contrast what we remember vs. what we forget.

And to give honest nostalgia to those looking for it.

[Cryomancer]

Silly outfits for the party members. Stuff like Dragon Quest's bikini armor for the girls (and of course they have an unrealisticly high defense boost too).

[NayusDante]

This thread is definitely helpful so far, just thought I should say it.

The floating island is going to be the "evil dimension" at the end. That's where the boss rush towers are (if I may borrow a bit from Mega Man's teleporter rooms...).

I'll get the story down sooner or later. My idea is to get the theme (the player replaying a game) and the technical details down while developing content. Once I get the story down, I'll have the content to tell it with. I really would like to go for the exploration theme in the game, so I'm not going to write up an epic story until after I have a world to tell it in.

I'm also trying to keep engine limitations in mind here. I'm (planning on) using the XNA RPG Starter Kit, which lends itself nicely to 8-bit RPGs without too much modification. Things like changing music on triggers would be a separate thing to code, so I'm assuming as little modification as possible initially.

[AbnormalMapping]

Thinking about it more, there are a few things I miss I haven't seen listed.

1. No sarcasm. No cultural references instead of making a real joke. No trauma, no scars. It's like a world filled with the kind of people we wish we were, back when we were just 8bits old, and our palettes still limited...

A world where it's okay to save the world, and you can just kill anyone who tries to stop you!

And nobody thinks even once about how disturbing that sentence really is...in fact, it's the best way to make new friends.

2. Exploits. Little things the player can do, if they're paying attention, to take them further faster than the story progression would normally allow. Reward people for thinking outside the box, or thinking OCD. Make it feel like we're cheating somehow, even if the rewards aren't nearly as game breaking as we think they are...

[Arkhan]

if you run into a coding problem(except from coding the properties of a map"can you walk there or not", coding Isn't easy, and It's very time consuming),

hate to break it to you, but if the coding obstacles aren't overcome, the rest doesn't matter much. Spending all the time making maps/graphics and then getting demolished by the coding is a sure fire way to never finish.

It's a pretty standard practice to make hokey placeholder graphics while the coding gets done. Once the engine is all in place, swapping the graphics and piecing the game itself together is trivial at best

I guess if all of the graphics are being ripped from other stuff, thats not a huge concern though...

[NayusDante]

I'm only using pre-existing graphics as placeholders. I can't submit an unoriginal game to the marketplace...

[Nightram]

Pretty massive effort, making an RPG. There's a lot to cover, so good luck. I remember making an RPG board game and mapping out all the stats. Poor man's D&D I suppose.

Anyway, I think the best part about 8-bit RPGs is having to fill in details with you imagination. Sometimes we couldn't even see the enemies or ourselves. Though I was seeing the towns and dungeons from above, I'd always imagine what actually being there might look like.

So, with that, make sure to leave some stuff to the imagination, but I bet the software limitations would take care of that.

[DuckTalesNES]

Get some friends to help you. Do you have any friends who are particularly creative who might be willing to help you write a story? I think people specializing on different parts can only make it better.

[Arkhan]

Get some friends to help you. Do you have any friends who are particularly creative who might be willing to help you write a story? I think people specializing on different parts can only make it better.

exactly. :)

Trying to do story/graphics/music/testing/coding all by your lonesome is going to push you to the edge of your sanity. :)

[NayusDante]

I've already got one friend helping with sprites and tiles, but I'm holding off on asking for more help. It's too soon for that, but I'll probably get some more help once things are further along.

Been tweaking the overworld map a little, and I think I have a final location count (not counting endgame), unless I use too many of the caves in the story. In that case, I can always put a few more caves around, or maybe ruins. Maybe some of those caves will end up being ruins instead, to hold the final equipment sets.

Towns: 10
Castles: 6
Caves: 12
Shrines: 6
Towers: 12

I really do love the idea of the whole world being open, but it simply doesn't work for the story I want to tell. It works better if I unlock each continent as the story progresses, because it lets me tell the player's story at a consistent pace alongside the game. Of course, that's the "enhanced" mode, as the player remembers it. The "classic" mode, or pure 8-bit version, will be open from the beginning, even making additional party members optional. I'm still debating whether to unlock this from the beginning, require a clear-save from the story mode, or password lock it with the password online.

I'm starting to think about monsters and stuff, and I was wondering... Would anyone disapprove if I used "dur butter monster" as the token slime monsters, or maybe a boss?

[DDCecil]

I'm starting to think about monsters and stuff, and I was wondering... Would anyone disapprove if I used "dur butter monster" as the token slime monsters, or maybe a boss?

Didn't Bratwurst originally create him? Maybe you could ask him. Heck, maybe I should ask him (if he approves of the following):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWugWF7VpjE

[NayusDante]

Messing around with music now... My idea is to use public domain classical stuff, and mix it with 8-bit VSTs. I'm using the VSTs from Tweakbench at the moment, but I also have a Yamaha DX200 synthesizer that I can use for some nice FM sounds (I'll probably use that more for the "enhanced" version). This one's by J. B. Lully, dating back to the 1600s. How does this sound for a dungeon? Is it a little off, or is this good?

Ballet de l'amour malade 20.mp3 (http://uploading.com/files/81bafd38/Ballet%2Bde%2Bl%2527amour%2Bmalade%2B20.mp3/)

Can anyone suggest some good, little-known composers with work in the public domain?

[Arkhan]

sounds pretty cool to me, though you might want to go the all original route..

[DuckTalesNES]

The all original route is going to be extremely hard. I think you're doing the right thing with public domain classical music, though I have little knowledge about whats out there.

[Gapporin]

Nobuo Uematsu was influenced by composers like Tchaikovsky and Carl Orff. Koichi Sugiyama was influenced by composers like Bach and Handel. This could serve as a starting point in your search for sound alike music.

[NayusDante]

I'm a little happier with this one... Might work for the overworld.

http://uploading.com/files/7ea5acda/Overworld.mp3/

[Jorpho]

I've always thought it would be cool to hear Malaguena (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malague%C3%B1a_%28song%29) in an RPG, but that's probably getting a mite specific.

Of course, we already had a classical music thread (http://www.digitpress.com/forum/showthread.php?t=138085).

[Arkhan]

The all original route is going to be extremely hard. I think you're doing the right thing with public domain classical music, though I have little knowledge about whats out there.

Ehh. if it's going to be on XNA it's a bit of a slap to the face to charge money for a game whose soundtrack you just noodled around with using VSTs.

I don't know how everyone else feels but I'd feel kinda jipped if I found out the music to a game was freebie stuff off the net. I'd start to wonder what else was "borrowed" in the game. :-/

might want to start looking for people you know who would be interested in lending an original helping hand with graphics and sound.. (if you're not a musician yourself)

[NayusDante]

I've got a long time to get the music done, and it's something that I can drop in and out. I don't mind using a few public domain resources, especially if if that's only a small portion of the game. Even if I did use as much public domain content as I could, it'd still be better than a lot of the crap (http://catalog.xna.com/en-US/GameDetails.aspx?catalogEntryId=9ed5605f-bc80-4afa-bd38-496c15bedf47&type=2) that's on XNA.

Really though, there's only a handful of decent games on the XNA marketplace. The RPG category (http://catalog.xna.com/en-US/gamescatalog.aspx?gr=12) is pretty lacking, though I'm happy to see a sprite-based 3D RPG was approved last week. I know other people are working on 2D RPGs, but nothing like this, as far as I know.


Here's the final overworld design. Still need to do original tiles for hills, mountains, caves, towns, towers, shrines, and castles.

http://img695.imageshack.us/img695/8740/overworldfinal.png

[Arkhan]

as long as you plan to do original stuff. Its not a very fulfilling experience if you dont. :-D

[DuckTalesNES]

It's better to use GOOD public domain music than BAD original music. If you're not an expert at writing music, you should stick with using stuff that professional composers wrote.

[DuckTalesNES]

I've always thought it would be cool to hear Malaguena (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malague%C3%B1a_%28song%29) in an RPG, but that's probably getting a mite specific.

Of course, we already had a classical music thread (http://www.digitpress.com/forum/showthread.php?t=138085).

Malaguena is excellent if you had like a desert town or something. It reminds me of the music in Ocarina of Time for the sand town.

[jb143]

It's better to use GOOD public domain music than BAD original music. If you're not an expert at writing music, you should stick with using stuff that professional composers wrote.

Exactly, I think using public domain classical music is a great idea and it shouldn't be too hard to find more obscure stuff that most people won't recognize. Just remember though, just because the music is public domain doesn mean it's automatically legal to use someone elses recording, mp3, midi, or whatever. Sounds like you've got that taken care of though.

[Arkhan]

It's better to use GOOD public domain music than BAD original music. If you're not an expert at writing music, you should stick with using stuff that professional composers wrote.

and then profit off the work of a stranger. :)

Its better to find someone who can make GOOD music for the game.

all I can say is if a game that costs money has freely lifted music, it had better say that plain as day in the manual, or somewhere in-game.

[hbkprm]

find the balance between graphics, gameplay and a solid story

[DuckTalesNES]

I like the music you've picked, but don't think its good for the overworld. Seems better for inside a temple or something.