Hating games for the sake of hating them

[chrissylas]

"Supposedly" bad games that I think are enjoyable: Rocky Rodent, Castlevania 2, Dracula XX (dracula X SNES), Robocop, Burning Fight, TMNT1 NES, Roger Rabbit, etc..

I really like Rocky Rodent and TMNT 1... hard but very fun. I have many fond memories of those games from my childhood.

I think that people should form their own opinions... know what you like and decide if if the game is worth taking the time to try.

[pseudonym]

It seems pretty common for an internet pseudo-celeb to state that a game is terrible and then everyone else to parrot that opinion as well.

Castlevania 2 has been hated on ever since it was released. A friend of mine back then had it and he hated it. I don't think it's a great game but it's fun and different, something I wish Konami would try to attempt again.

I never liked TMNT 1 even though I owned it when I was a kid. It's average at best and I was a raging TMNT fan back then. I think the series found it's niche with arcade-style beat-em-ups.

[Arkhan]

i remember the first time I saw AVGN back when he was angry nintendo nerd, dissing on castlevania 2

i was like

"Who the hell could hate that game? its my favorite CV! What a frigging idiot"

im just glad he stopped being like monotone/"angry whiner". Now its overly exaggerated comedy. hes an actual character now, and its better that way. :)

[Kitsune Sniper]

CV2 would've been a lot more popular if the translation hadn't been complete garbage.

The core gameplay is fun and not a problem; but you just didn't know what the HELL you had to do at some places without having to check a strategy guide.

[pseudonym]

What's the most ridiculous quote from Castlevania 2? I'm going with "get the silk bag from the graveyard duck to live longer."

[kupomogli]

On Castlevania 2 all of the tomes told you what to do. There was only one that was hard to find as it is in the very beginning of the spider area before Berkeley Mansion.

The other ones are pretty much in blocks that are in obvious "throw Holy Water at me" places.

Also. That graveyard duck line is probably most likely translated correctly but should have probably had a period stuck in there which is why it looks as bad as it does. I'm thinking it's supposed to be "Get the silk bag from the graveyard. Duck to live longer." The duck to live longer thing would probably mean duck to whip the Reeses Cup enemies :P(slimes.) I've always thought they looked like the Reeses Cup wrappers.

[jb143]

It seems pretty common for an internet pseudo-celeb to state that a game is terrible and then everyone else to parrot that opinion as well.


That's just the way's things have always been long before the internet...

Brian: Look, you've got it all wrong! You don't NEED to follow ME, You don't NEED to follow ANYBODY! You've got to think for yourselves! You're ALL individuals!
The Crowd: Yes! We're all individuals!
Brian: You're all different!
The Crowd: Yes, we ARE all different!
Small lonely voice: I'm not...

[Icarus Moonsight]

What's the most ridiculous quote from Castlevania 2? I'm going with "get the silk bag from the graveyard duck to live longer."

Is the graveyard duck disco duck's goth nephew?

[buzz_n64]

Castlevania 2 was good, people are too hard on it, or is it that the game is too hard for people? Anyways, I like the night/day changes, the music, and the challenge.

[Kitsune Sniper]

The other ones are pretty much in blocks that are in obvious "throw Holy Water at me" places.

Obvious according to who?

[Arkhan]

man I beat CV2 when I was like, 9 years old. That game was easy.

Faxanadu , now THAT was a challenge

[Zoltor]

Obvious according to who?

Anyone with more then two brain cells, that's who.

Really, if you come to a 3-4 cell thick wall, It's pretty damn obvious something is hidden there.

To Arkhan: Faxanadu was a great game, but yea it was pretty hard, and it was long as hell as well.

[fahlim003]

GameFAQs has whole cadres of Apologists and Bashers doing reviews. If a game gets some 9s or a 10, you best be sure that there will be a 3 review posted within the week. Same the other way, except it's a 12 year old brat White Knighting the game they got for their birthday. Since their birthday gift absolutely can not suck. They won't allow it. LOL

I believe this although I haven't seen it happen myself, thanks to limited time on that site reading the reviews of all things.

I have a single review on GFs and I only amended it to adhere to my better inspection upon the game since my view had changed over the course of 4 years. So long as that is the reason for amendment, no problems here.

[Arkhan]

Anyone with more then two brain cells, that's who.

Really, if you come to a 3-4 cell thick wall, It's pretty damn obvious something is hidden there.

To Arkhan: Faxanadu was a great game, but yea it was pretty hard, and it was long as hell as well.

some people want the obvious solution to things without having to try. CV1 involved walking linearly through levels, fighting bosses.

CV2 involved planning.

[Kitsune Sniper]

Anyone with more then two brain cells, that's who.

Really, if you come to a 3-4 cell thick wall, It's pretty damn obvious something is hidden there.

To Arkhan: Faxanadu was a great game, but yea it was pretty hard, and it was long as hell as well.

My ten year old self says "SCREW YOU." "Obvious"? For a lot of us, this was the first game that required finding secrets and such. And again... Many didn't have the luxury of strategy guides or game magazines.

[Zoltor]

My ten year old self says "SCREW YOU." "Obvious"? For a lot of us, this was the first game that required finding secrets and such. And again... Many didn't have the luxury of strategy guides or game magazines.

I never had a strategy guide or what not(It's not like today, where they baby gamers, and hold your hand. Back in the old days, very few games had strategy guides, and even then, they were mail order only).

Yes, and DW1 is the first RPG I ever played, your point being?

However considering the fact, Holy Water is like the best sub weapon in the game, It's hardly something you wouldn't figure out(it would be different if you "had" to use a POS weapon to break walls, but you don't, and once you figure out that you can break walls, there's no excuse for not realizing, if you can break one wall, there are most likely more breakable walls).

To Arkhan: Then what's the point of it being supposedly secret lol(imagine if secret doors in the Wizardry games were a different color then the rest of the wall, some secret that would be)?

[Kitsune Sniper]

I never had a strategy guide or what not(It's not like today, where they baby gamers, and hold your hand. Back in the old days, very few games had strategy guides, and even then, they were mail order only).

Yes, and DW1 is the first RPG I ever played, your point being?

I guess my point was that some of us weren't glued to the Nintendo all our childhood. Or had the patience to, you know, throw holy water everywhere. Because we were trying to have fun, not waste time throwing water everywhere.

Meh.

Remember when this thread had a point? :\

[Arkhan]

Remember when this thread had a point? :\
Yeah!

the point is, anyone who hates hydlide is EVIL!

[kupomogli]

Obvious according to who?

I don't know the exact locations right now. But in a castle you go up some stairs, absolutely nothing up there. Why not throw a Holy Water against the wall. There's a hidden tome.

Another Castle there's a block half height above all other blocks there next to the wall. Why not throw a Holy Water at it.

The Holy Flames are in an open wall that as soon as you jump down from the caves after the first mansion, you can attempt to throw Holy Water. There's some flames at the end of that wall.

Alot of the hidden messages aren't hard to find, but like I said, one is extremely hard to find.

The only one that is hard to find is directly left of Berkeley Mansion. In the same area that the spiders are on the very left exit of that one. There is a bunch of flat rocks on the ground before a jump upward. Throwing holy water at those rocks will have another secret message. This is the only one I can think of people not being able to find, ever. The other ones are just dead give aways "throw holy water here."

Anyways. People use the "throw holy water everywhere" thing, only AFTER James made his review about the game. That's another part of the game that gets bashed. You know my first time playing the game I didn't throw holy water everywhere. I went up the steps in Berkeley Mansion, fell down that one two part invisible hole, went back up to where it was at, threw holy water. Then at the second part of that I fell as well.

I don't think there are any other places in the game that there are even blocks that are visible but not really blocks. Yes there is. Two places. One place is in a swamp near Dracula's Castle, leads to a dead end. The other is above a swamp in a cave right before Deborah's Cliff. So one spot you don't have to even go to, and another that as soon as you fall, jump back from where you fell off which will be one jump to the right to where you landed and climb a very small set of stairs.

[Kitsune Sniper]

I don't know the exact locations right now. But in a castle you go up some stairs, absolutely nothing up there. Why not throw a Holy Water against the wall.Because the game, as far as I remember, never tells you to do that, and there's no way any average person who is lost in the game would ever think of doing that? Other than finding those books, which I don't recall ever doing.

Still, that's a game design flaw. A glaring one. I can't believe people are defending it.

[j_factor]

This kind of reminds me of a review I did a long time ago (though it wasn't on Youtube). I wrote up a lengthy review of the Zelda Master Quest disc for Gamecube. The review was separated into two sections; the first half for the original, the second half for the Master Quest. At the end of the first half I said I'd give the original Ocarina of Time about an 8. I could not believe how many flames I got.

For one, I don't care if you think Game X is the absolute best game ever made, someone giving it an 8/10 is not horribly misinformed, "backwards", or in any way problematic. There is not a single game in existence for which I would be appalled to see a score of 8/10 (unless I was appalled because it was so horrible). An 8 is a positive score; it's ridiculous to get your panties in a bunch because someone was not quite positive enough for your liking. No game is a mandatory 10.

More importantly, with all the flames, none actually had an argument as to why my score was wrong, or why any of the weaknesses I identified with the game were not legitimate complaints. They were all "ZOMG I CANT BELEIVE YOU GAVE TEH BEST GAME OF ALL TIME AN 8!!!!!!!!!!!!11" That really put me off, and it was years before I even tried to write another review.

I don't know how videogames got this "hive mind" thing where everybody has to give the same reviews, but it really pisses me off. You don't really see this elsewhere. I mean, Roger Ebert is the most popular, respected film critic in the business, and he has many reviews that go against critical and popular consensus (including a negative review of Full Metal Jacket).

[Zoltor]

This kind of reminds me of a review I did a long time ago (though it wasn't on Youtube). I wrote up a lengthy review of the Zelda Master Quest disc for Gamecube. The review was separated into two sections; the first half for the original, the second half for the Master Quest. At the end of the first half I said I'd give the original Ocarina of Time about an 8. I could not believe how many flames I got.

For one, I don't care if you think Game X is the absolute best game ever made, someone giving it an 8/10 is not horribly misinformed, "backwards", or in any way problematic. There is not a single game in existence for which I would be appalled to see a score of 8/10 (unless I was appalled because it was so horrible). An 8 is a positive score; it's ridiculous to get your panties in a bunch because someone was not quite positive enough for your liking. No game is a mandatory 10.

More importantly, with all the flames, none actually had an argument as to why my score was wrong, or why any of the weaknesses I identified with the game were not legitimate complaints. They were all "ZOMG I CANT BELEIVE YOU GAVE TEH BEST GAME OF ALL TIME AN 8!!!!!!!!!!!!11" That really put me off, and it was years before I even tried to write another review.

I don't know how videogames got this "hive mind" thing where everybody has to give the same reviews, but it really pisses me off. You don't really see this elsewhere. I mean, Roger Ebert is the most popular, respected film critic in the business, and he has many reviews that go against critical and popular consensus (including a negative review of Full Metal Jacket).

Wow, what a fucked up world we must be in, for a 8/10 to be a bad score(seriously, that's what I would rate it as well, and even that may be "slightly" higher then it deserves, there are some really annoying flaws at certain points of the game, and it is such an over hyped game on top of that, so even if everything was implemented perfectly, it still wouldn't have got higher then a 8.5/10 in my book).

Anything 7/10 or higher is good, and anything 8/10 or higher is very good-great, so I'm surprised you got flamed.

[Aussie2B]

More importantly, with all the flames, none actually had an argument as to why my score was wrong, or why any of the weaknesses I identified with the game were not legitimate complaints. They were all "ZOMG I CANT BELEIVE YOU GAVE TEH BEST GAME OF ALL TIME AN 8!!!!!!!!!!!!11" That really put me off, and it was years before I even tried to write another review.

Heh, you're going into it with the wrong mindset. I savor my hate mail. The stupider the better. :)

[Arkhan]

Because the game, as far as I remember, never tells you to do that, and there's no way any average person who is lost in the game would ever think of doing that? Other than finding those books, which I don't recall ever doing.

Still, that's a game design flaw. A glaring one. I can't believe people are defending it.

a glaring design flaw?

ffs.

Read the manual.

It says and I quote: "Holy water disintegrates walls and floors which conceal weapons and items"

You can't call it a design flaw if they tell you all of this stuff in the instruction booklet.

Most if not all of Simon's Quests complaints stem from not reading the manual. That's not the designers fault.

If you don't have the manual, its 2010. Go find it online.

[Kitsune Sniper]

a glaring design flaw?

ffs.

Read the manual.

It says and I quote: "Holy water disintegrates walls and floors which conceal weapons and items"

You can't call it a design flaw if they tell you all of this stuff in the instruction booklet.

Most if not all of Simon's Quests complaints stem from not reading the manual. That's not the designers fault.

If you don't have the manual, its 2010. Go find it online.

Because everyone that rented games also got the manuals, amirite.

How many people here bought the game back then, and how many people rented it? And why the hell are we still arguing this instead of the original point agh

[pseudonym]

I never knew that when I was a kid, my friend showed me most of the hidden items when I watched him play. Also, TMNT 1 is a terrible game, the second level still pisses me off to this day.

... wait, what were we talking about originally?

[SamuraiSmurfette]

I really liked TMNT 1.

TMNT 1 is like enjoying the comic books. It can be challenging to get into, but has alot of depth. Strategy and puzzle elements. More for teens.

TMNT 2 and 3 is like enjoying the series. Bright, colorful, violent, pointless and over quickly. Meant for kids through and through.

TMNT 2 and 3 I sat down and beat through in a sitting. Tastes great, less filling. Wouldn't really bother playing them again. But TMNT 1 I played back in the day, over and over with a friend, trying to get further. The challenge kept bringing us back. Unfortunately, it's downfall was that it was TOO difficult for us. And I never did beat it.

[pseudonym]

How far did you make it? The final level is a real pain, and Shredder is REALLY difficult to defeat if you don't use a certain cheap trick to defeat him. Similar to how you cheaply kill Bebop in the first level.

[SamuraiSmurfette]

I honestly don't know how many levels there are, to be honest.
If I were to guess?
Maybe half-way?

[Aussie2B]

Well, in concept, the hidden books in Castlevania 2 are supposed to be EXTRA, not something you're required to find to figure out what the hell is going on in the game. They're more along the lines of tips available for players that are really struggling, to the point that they're just wandering around and using holy water all over the place. The tips from the townspeople are supposed to be enough to get through the game, so that's where the real flaw is - that the localization is so bloody awful.

But the game has enough action and exploration to be satisfying even with using a guide to make sense out where to duck holding whatever random bauble to make something completely illogical happen. Honestly, this is one the few games where you're better off using an FAQ because if you try to do it on your own, even if you succeed you'll waste so much time on the dumb stuff that it'll overshadow what is actually enjoyable about the game.

[Arkhan]

Well, in concept, the hidden books in Castlevania 2 are supposed to be EXTRA, not something you're required to find to figure out what the hell is going on in the game. They're more along the lines of tips available for players that are really struggling, to the point that they're just wandering around and using holy water all over the place. The tips from the townspeople are supposed to be enough to get through the game, so that's where the real flaw is - that the localization is so bloody awful.
.

some of the townsfolk tips are meant to provide false information also.

its in the manual.

lol

[Aussie2B]

some of the townsfolk tips are meant to provide false information also.

its in the manual.

lol

And? What does the manual have to do with what I said? I didn't say that I have or haven't read it. If the localization was good, then the player would have the ability to recognize a false clue or at least understand what the heck the person is saying so they could test out the tip and determine that it's false. That scenario seems easier to me than hoping you'll come across a hidden book that may or may not have a tip that's useful to you.

At this point it seems like you're just trying to affirm your supremacy over the non-manual-owning/reading heathens.

[Press_Start]

Can't we get back on topic here?


I don't know how videogames got this "hive mind" thing where everybody has to give the same reviews, but it really pisses me off. You don't really see this elsewhere. I mean, Roger Ebert is the most popular, respected film critic in the business, and he has many reviews that go against critical and popular consensus (including a negative review of Full Metal Jacket).

Easier to be somebody else's mouth than your own. No work necessary, just soak it up like a sponge and become "know-it-all" without investing a drop of thought.

The Wii's been the latest victim of lazy misjudgement. Take ScrewAttack's SAGY Awards last December.

SAGY 2009 Wii Nominations (http://screwattack.com/forums/thread/2009-Wii-Nominations)

My Horse and Me got the most nominations for Worst Wii Game of '09 but the kick in the nuts is My Horse and Me was released in '07. It's highly unpopular thanks to a review SA did that same year. To top it off, all the final nominations were all "well-known" games, none deserving of the title compared to what been through in '09.

It ultimately proves one thing: they like talking sh!t but are too lazy/afraid/unwilling/etc to shift through the crap themselves.

[Icarus Moonsight]

I initially gave up on CV2 when I couldn't find the graveyard duck... Oh gawd, it's Duckula! Now I get it. I beat it since then... CV2 Dracula is probably the easiest enemy in the game. Going by Castlevania logic; Maybe you have to find Duckula to get the real ending. Maybe there's a roasted duck in a hidden orb. Throw it in with Dracula's parts and BAM! Duckula! LOL

I feel a romhack urge coming on...

I don't find myself hating games without a valid reason, even if it's only in taste or an outright subjective gripe... I also do not think too many people do it. But when it happens, it's a source of facepalm and mild comedy. It's easier to just ignore the parrots. It's the original and broken hate you should focus on.

[kupomogli]

SAGY 2009 Wii Nominations (http://screwattack.com/forums/thread/2009-Wii-Nominations)

My Horse and Me got the most nominations for Worst Wii Game of '09 but the kick in the nuts is My Horse and Me was released in '07.

Other than Craig and the mod that posted on the first page, three out of seven people stated My Horse and Me.

One person mentions the game(with a probably) and everyone else starts mentioning that it sucks. More than likely none of them have played it. But like you said, the games release date makes it even better. Shows how dumb they actually are.

[Icarus Moonsight]

It could have sucked enough for three years worth... Just saying.

[kupomogli]

It could have sucked enough for three years worth... Just saying.

You're a collector Icarus. Do you own the game? And if you happen to own it, have you played it?

They probably haven't played it much less own it. I doubt they even heard of it until they saw it on ScrewAttack. I didn't hear of it until today to tell you the truth.

[Icarus Moonsight]

Oh no, I don't qualify as a collector, especially 'round here. I try to sidestep titles that range from meh to blah and I'm constantly culling the potential play pool, before and after acquisitions. LOL

I haven't played it, what more, I've never even seen or heard of it. The title alone gives me the heeby-jeebies though, so not knowing about it is sort of a good thing AFAIC.

[Arkhan]

(this line of talkage seems like its pretty on topicish)


And? What does the manual have to do with what I said? I didn't say that I have or haven't read it. If the localization was good, then the player would have the ability to recognize a false clue or at least understand what the heck the person is saying so they could test out the tip and determine that it's false. That scenario seems easier to me than hoping you'll come across a hidden book that may or may not have a tip that's useful to you.

The problem was just that some people thought all the clues were meant as facts, and they'd go try crap that was meant to be a trick. I'd say it did a pretty good job. You arent supposed to recognize a false clue until you try it out and go "dang" and realize you've been had by shady townsfolk.

The localization really isn't THAT bad. If you're aware that not everything you're told is true, it makes things go alot smoother.

Just wondering, what example text do you have that is a bad localization? I ran across alot of dodgy text but it was at least comprehend-able.



At this point it seems like you're just trying to affirm your supremacy over the non-manual-owning/reading heathens.
Im not trying to "affirm supemacy" over anyone. When most of the complaints about a game are explained in the manual....what do you expect as a response?

most of the CV2 haters, and especially the AVGN copycats, complain about the cookie cutter, run of the mill complaints.

but at this point, its all been explained in the manual, in nintendo powers, online, in the manuals that are scanned online, and on forums, so what the hell is there to complain about? You could read the info, and go "oh" and play the game complaint free. The "design flaw" that is not having the instruction booklet can be done away with.

Maybe there needs to be a thread about complaints in games that are explained in the instruction book. CV2 isn't the only game this happens with,.

[Aussie2B]

The problem was just that some people thought all the clues were meant as facts, and they'd go try crap that was meant to be a trick. I'd say it did a pretty good job. You arent supposed to recognize a false clue until you try it out and go "dang" and realize you've been had by shady townsfolk.

The localization really isn't THAT bad. If you're aware that not everything you're told is true, it makes things go alot smoother.

Just wondering, what example text do you have that is a bad localization? I ran across alot of dodgy text but it was at least comprehend-able.

That's great if you're able to decipher the Engrish, but most players DON'T find it that easy to comprehend what exactly the townspeople are saying. It is widely regarded as fact that the game has an awful localization, even by the game's biggest fans. If you don't think the game has a bad localization, then I'd honestly wonder what games you think have bad/worse localizations. The false clues definitely don't help matters (and I'd say their inclusion was a bad design choice in the first place, at least to the extent in which they are present), but they're not at the root of the problem.


Im not trying to "affirm supemacy" over anyone. When most of the complaints about a game are explained in the manual....what do you expect as a response?

most of the CV2 haters, and especially the AVGN copycats, complain about the cookie cutter, run of the mill complaints.

but at this point, its all been explained in the manual, in nintendo powers, online, in the manuals that are scanned online, and on forums, so what the hell is there to complain about? You could read the info, and go "oh" and play the game complaint free. The "design flaw" that is not having the instruction booklet can be done away with.

Maybe there needs to be a thread about complaints in games that are explained in the instruction book. CV2 isn't the only game this happens with,.

Again, what does the manual have to do with what I posted? It seems like you're jumping to conclusions where complaining about a game = not reading a manual and/or not understanding a game. I'm sorry to break it to you, but you can't excuse away every person who complains about a game you like as either not understanding the game or sucking at it. And even if it's true that someone doesn't understand a game, it's not always entirely his or her fault. Some games are just plain needlessly confusing, with or without a manual. And not everything can be excused away by being present in a manual. Some things shouldn't be solely mentioned in a manual, like, say, how a code required to make progress in StarTropics is only found on a letter in the packaging. Why can't Castlevania 2 have one townsperson that comments on how some other people are liars? A simple detail like that can make a big difference.

But c'mon, these games are decades old. Most kids playing them are doing so via emulation, and most of the collectors go to thirft stores and yard sales and such where you rarely find more than bare carts. Most manuals aren't available online for reading either. There's no need to act like people are committing some crime for playing games without reading manuals. If a game isn't intuitive enough on its own, that can be complaint enough.

[Arkhan]

dunno man. When its people who tout themselves as gamers griping about things that are mentioned plain as day in the instructions, its kind of apparent that they didn't read the manual.

I dont know what everyone else does, but if I get a used game with no manual, I make it a point to go find it online either by getting a copy off ebay, or by downloading it. I read the manuals to every game I've ever bought. Its probably a side effect from growing up with dos crpgs.

Vimm.net has a nice manual project going.

The whole "manual" thing isn't directed specifically at you though. Its just a general statement of "all these complaints are explained in the instructions..."

and, emulation/downloads + didnt read manual is a horrible combination. If you can go torrent all the NES games ever, you can go find some frikkin online manuals, lol.


Anyway, I thought the misleading clues were part of the games challenge. Its like playing dnd, and the NPC gives you false info and you almost die.

You go back and knife that tool right in the stomach!

[Kitsune Sniper]

dunno man. When its people who tout themselves as gamers griping about things that are mentioned plain as day in the instructions, its kind of apparent that they didn't read the manual.

I dont know what everyone else does, but if I get a used game with no manual, I make it a point to go find it online either by getting a copy off ebay, or by downloading it. I read the manuals to every game I've ever bought. Its probably a side effect from growing up with dos crpgs.

Vimm.net has a nice manual project going.

The whole "manual" thing isn't directed specifically at you though. Its just a general statement of "all these complaints are explained in the instructions..."

and, emulation/downloads + didnt read manual is a horrible combination. If you can go torrent all the NES games ever, you can go find some frikkin online manuals, lol.


Anyway, I thought the misleading clues were part of the games challenge. Its like playing dnd, and the NPC gives you false info and you almost die.

You go back and knife that tool right in the stomach!

And I mentioned that a lot of people, including myself, never saw the manual because they rented the game, yet you seem to be ignoring that on purpose.

[buzz_n64]

Yeah, I grew up with Castlevania II, and I never had the box or manual, just had to wing it. I do remember listening to the townspeople, doing what they said, and getting pissed off because it wasn't true, so I stopped talking with them for the most part.

[pseudonym]

Did you hit your head on Deborah Cliff to summon a tornado? Heh. I didn't know the game intentionally dropped bad clues, I always thought it was poor localization, ala Capcom circa 1986/87.

*The more you know*

[kupomogli]

I don't know if I said this yet, but also in the very first town a townsperson says. "A magic potion will destroy the wall of evil." The house above the right exit has holy water. Holy water is water that is magically turned holy so even though the localization is off, the fact that there is nothing else in the game that's a liquid, kind of goes, hey, maybe holy water destroys blocks.

[Arkhan]

And I mentioned that a lot of people, including myself, never saw the manual because they rented the game, yet you seem to be ignoring that on purpose.

not ignoring it. musta missed it. Oh well. Now the manuals are totally accessible so theres no reason to not read them.


though BITD, Nintendo Power and that hotline you could call both provided enough information if you really needed it.

[Aussie2B]

Also, back in the NES days, it was extremely common for kids to trade games, sometimes permanently, and the manuals usually didn't make that transition.

And again I point out that most of the complaints about the game in this topic are completely unrelated to the manual. Reading the manual doesn't fix the bad localization, the illogical puzzle solutions, the excessive frequency of fake clues, and so on. And I say all this despite that I like the game. I'll go back to what I was saying earlier and recommend to new players that it's a GOOD thing to play with an FAQ and that they'll have MORE fun if they don't have to worry about nonsense like tornadoes and disappearing lakes. Then you can just enjoy battling monsters, exploring the countryside and mansions, listening the great music, and soaking in the cool atmosphere.

[Kitsune Sniper]

though BITD, Nintendo Power and that hotline you could call both provided enough information if you really needed it.

And again... remember how I said that not everyone had access to magazines OR strategy guides? Hell, who the heck even got permission from their parents to call a 900 (that was it, right?) number? Jesus, it's like you're ignoring these on purpose.


I don't know if I said this yet, but also in the very first town a townsperson says. "A magic potion will destroy the wall of evil." The house above the right exit has holy water. Holy water is water that is magically turned holy so even though the localization is off, the fact that there is nothing else in the game that's a liquid, kind of goes, hey, maybe holy water destroys blocks.

I dunno about you, but I was raised Catholic, and I was taught that holy water (or anything religious) isn't magic. So no, that line is still off.

[Arkhan]

And again... remember how I said that not everyone had access to magazines OR strategy guides? Hell, who the heck even got permission from their parents to call a 900 (that was it, right?) number? Jesus, it's like you're ignoring these on purpose.
.

How am I ignoring it? Im directly addressing it. Maybe BACK IN THE DAY you missed out on the manual. Now you have the internet and you're grown up.

Go read the manual and stop complaining about things that are answered in there :)

I say that not just to you but to everyone complaining or who has complained. If you've got time to post on a forum you've got time to find PDFs of manuals. Theres tons of them out there :-D

Even AVGN. I dont think hes read the manual to any of the games he has reviewed because some of the stuff he pisses and moans about is in there.




And again I point out that most of the complaints about the game in this topic are completely unrelated to the manual. Reading the manual doesn't fix the bad localization, the illogical puzzle solutions, the excessive frequency of fake clues, and so on. And I say all this despite that I like the game. I'll go back to what I was saying earlier and recommend to new players that it's a GOOD thing to play with an FAQ and that they'll have MORE fun if they don't have to worry about nonsense like tornadoes and disappearing lakes. Then you can just enjoy battling monsters, exploring the countryside and mansions, listening the great music, and soaking in the cool atmosphere

Not knowing holy water breaks blocks: In manual
Not knowing false clues exist: In manual

Alot of its all cleared up in the manual.

If you didn't have the manual, that blows. Nowadays though, as you've mentioned there are FAQs and such to help out. If you had the manual BITD, it was just as good as a FAQ. It served to allow myself to finish the game while I was in gradeschool....

The game is a step away from the first game. The adventure/riddle/puzzle solving is part of the game.

What examples do you have of the bad localization though? :-/ I'm honestly curious.


This all reminds me of my friend who I loaned battle of Olympus to. WITH the manual. He called me complaining that he spent 3 hours trying to figure out how to talk to Zeus. Didn't know you were supposed to kneel down.

[Kitsune Sniper]

If all you're going to say is "go read the manual", then why do I bother trying to talk to you? Looks like you're not going to accept the fact that we had problems with the game back in the day regardless of what we say.

I think this thread should be locked, or this whole thread split, or something.

[kupomogli]

Arkhan sounds like he's saying that all these AVGN fanboys could go online and look up this info instead of complaining about it. Prior to AVGN hardly anyone bashed CV2 and these issues never came up.

Also, most of these people never played the game prior to AVGN. After seeing the AVGN video. What is there to bitch about? AVGN pretty much told them all the stuff they're too dumbass to figure out on their own. The problems that are in the game were already listed by the nerd and they already know what to do.

[Aussie2B]

Not knowing holy water breaks blocks: In manual
Not knowing false clues exist: In manual

Alot of its all cleared up in the manual.


I'm gonna go with Kitsune at this point and say that you selectively ignore things. I listed several complaints in my post that YOU JUST QUOTED that have absolutely nothing to do with the manual. "All cleared up in the manual" my butt. In fact, you were the first person to bring up the false clues. It was completely irrelevant then, and it's still completely irrelevant now. Even the presence of a note about false clues in the manual doesn't negate people being annoyed by them, thinking there are too many false clues, and/or the fact that it's all muddled by the bad localization. But if finding some way to invalidate in your mind every opinion you don't like gets you through the day, more power to you.

I don't think it's even worth starting to try to explain the bad localization since you'll probably ignore all that's said and go off on your unrelated tangents, especially since you already failed at naming a single game you consider having a worse and/or bad localization. How about the fact that it's in awkward, unnatural English and doesn't even have correct punctuation and spelling at times? Is that a good enough point to start at? What, do you need screen shots?

http://ui10.gamefaqs.com/1417/gfs_46888_2_13.jpg

[Zthun]

It's been said a million times, but people do realize that AVGN is a joke right? His reviews are for entertainment and are not to be taken seriously.

Anyway:



Not knowing holy water breaks blocks: In manual
Not knowing false clues exist: In manual

Alot of its all cleared up in the manual.

If you didn't have the manual, that blows. Nowadays though, as you've mentioned there are FAQs and such to help out. If you had the manual BITD, it was just as good as a FAQ. It served to allow myself to finish the game while I was in gradeschool....

The game is a step away from the first game. The adventure/riddle/puzzle solving is part of the game.

What examples do you have of the bad localization though? I'm honestly curious.


This all reminds me of my friend who I loaned battle of Olympus to. WITH the manual. He called me complaining that he spent 3 hours trying to figure out how to talk to Zeus. Didn't know you were supposed to kneel down.
Today 06:42 AM


A manual should be optional. If a user HAS to consult a manual to do something basic such as talking, then the interface really needs to be reworked. In game hints would normally solve this problem. A manual is there for a quick lookup and should not be a required read. I still liked Castlevania II though.

[pseudonym]

I think the problem is that people do take his reviews seriously regardless of what he says.

[Graham Mitchell]

It's been said a million times, but people do realize that AVGN is a joke right? His reviews are for entertainment and are not to be taken seriously.

Anyway:



A manual should be optional. If a user HAS to consult a manual to do something basic such as talking, then the interface really needs to be reworked. In game hints would normally solve this problem. A manual is there for a quick lookup and should not be a required read. I still liked Castlevania II though.

Right, but this is the 80s we're talking about, and the standards were different then.

Let's go back to the Atari era for a minute. There are countless Atari games where, without any kind of pre-reading or prep, it's pretty much impossible tell what the heck you're supposed to do, or even what you are controlling on the screen. Remember, for every Pitfall and Asteroids there was a Reactor, Private Eye, Space Shuttle Challenge, Porky's, etc. Hell, even Stampede is a bit confusing. I remember when I started playing it, I had no clue why my game kept ending abruptly. Ever try playing Dolphin without a manual? Good luck. These weren't bad games, per se, but they required so much imagination, and contained no text to guide you.

You know why things were this way? Because nobody rented Atari games, and though I was quite young at the time, I don't remember seeing much of a market for used Atari games. It was expected that if you had the game in your house, you or someone you knew bought it, and therefore the manual was available to you. It was assumed that this wasn't an issue.

Rental of cartridges, and used game resale, wasn't much of a phenomenon until about halfway thought the NES's life cycle. I remember when CVII was released, game rental was just starting to catch on. By the end of the NES era, developers were a bit more on the ball about making games more intuitive or providing in-game tutorials/instructions, etc. If CVII was a late NES release I'd say that the problems everybody gripes about were due to poor design. But it came out in 1987, when the NES was still fairly new, and I think developers still depended on games being shipped with documentation to some degree.

CVII isn't the only NES game with this issue. Try playing Deadly Towers, Legacy of the Wizard, Silent Service, or any of the myriad of NES wrestling games without a manual, or some kind of documentation that tells you what the shoe with a star on it does. They game sure as hell isn't gonna give you any hints.

And for the record, I borrowed Gran Turismo for pS1 years ago from somebody with no manual, and I couldn't figure it out. The icons in the menus make no sense. What the fuck does the steering wheel with a screwdriver and a lightning bolt do? Seriously, how the hell am I gonna figure that out on my own?

Since gaming got more popularized after PS1, developers make a much larger effort to make games accessible to impatient people (aka-casual gamers.) But I think it's unfair to uphold a 23-year-old game to the standards of today's market.

[Arkhan]

Aussie2B, when did you ask me to find a game that has a worse localization? :-/ I know I told you to give me examples of bad translations in CV2. Yeah its bad engrish, but what game wasn't guilty back then? I'm not sure I can think of a game with a worse localization, but I can say that Ultima III on NES is definitely a vaguer PITA than CV2. Esp. with no manual. Im kind of numb to bad engrish.

I take that back! Hydlide 3 for MSX had a built in english mode, done by T&E soft themselves. It is the worst localization ever I think. Very dodgy.

I'm just sayin I think the problems are often over exaggerated.

Alot of people are unaware that CV2 has false clues. They take it all as confusing facts. Even pseudonym here said he was unaware! Im not justifying the crapped up english, or the fact that they're annoying. Im just saying, alot of people have no clue that some things they are told in CV2 are misleading on purpose.

Manuals IMO aren't an optional thing. They didn't write the thing for shits and grins, they're important. Try playing Ultima IV or V on PC with no manual. :-/ It's a nightmare! If you could rent PC games BITD, and places rented out Ultima w/ no manual, they should be arrested for attempted murder.

I'm not ignoring anyone. Im often too lazy to crop out what im not responding to, so sorry if it seems like im ignoring something. Half the time I don't know what Im going to respond to and not when I start rambling. Im not really trying to invalidate someones opinion. Im just trying to point out that some of the complaints are kinda dated. and some are backless claims fueled by AVGNs video.

I just think in 2010, we are all resourceful enough to find the manuals and stop complaining about it. If it were like 1990, this would be an entirely different case.

Nearly, if not every thing I have ever heard complained about in games like LOTW, CV2, and Ultima, are all explained in the manual. And again, if this were 1990 and all, I'd have more sympathy for the manual-less. Today? Not really.

It'd be like complaining about how slow downloads were in 1988 on a like friggin 9600 baud modem. So? Are you being forced to use one today? noooooope. You're not being forced to be manualless today either.

www.vimm.net <<< Check out the manual project. Seriously! it's pretty sweet.

Kitsune's right, maybe all the CV2/Hydlidery should be split into a new thread.

[kupomogli]

How about the most popular bad localization game ever created? Zero Wing. That's definitely got worse.

Also. Bringing up the nerd again. He makes none of the complaints about holy water destroying stuff and even mentions "you can grab a secret message and accidently hit the button, but what they feel I need to read over and over again, is What a Horrible Night to Have a Curse."

Another thing if you look at the Rocky game for the SMS on one of the nerds reviews. What does he pull out after getting beat by Clubber Lang? The instruction manual.

Again. Arkhan isn't saying that back then some of you may have had a problem with CV2 because of the instruction manual, but because all the CV2 hate didn't start until recently and was nothing more than branching off James' review, people have no reason to bash it for certain stuff they already know and don't have to figure out for themselves.

So the topic is getting off track. People hate on the game because they've watched a review and have no reason to, not in this day and age. But your complaints being that you played the game on the NES and found those to be bothersome are honest opinions. Not hating the game based off watching a video.

So I think we're both right. Aussie and Kitsune, as well as me and Arkhan. It's just from different perspectives that we're looking at it at.

[Arkhan]

Another thing if you look at the Rocky game for the SMS on one of the nerds reviews. What does he pull out after getting beat by Clubber Lang? The instruction manual. .

True, but I have never seen him use the manual for an NES game.

[Kitsune Sniper]

How about the most popular bad localization game ever created? Zero Wing. That's definitely got worse.

I've found a game that has a worse translation: Samurai Shodown VI (on Samurai Shodown Anthology, US release). It makes Zero Wing look like friggin' Shakespeare. :(

I think the PAL version of... Bangai-O (Dreamcast) is notorious for having a really crap translation too, but that's what a friend told me a while back.

[Garry Silljo]

Nearly, if not every thing I have ever heard complained about in games like LOTW, CV2, and Ultima, are all explained in the manual. And again, if this were 1990 and all, I'd have more sympathy for the manual-less. Today? Not really.


So if something sucks, putting it in the manual makes it un-suck? No, ... hating something that sucks is justified, even if it's mentioned in the instructions.

[T2KFreeker]

Hmm, just to chime in, I beat Castlevania 2 back in the day without the instructions. Not saying it's a perfect game, but it was cool. I still love my copy of the game to boot! I don't see why everyone is so "AARRRRGGGGGHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!" in this thread. They are just games and some people like them and some people don't. Like I said, I'm a Jaguar fan, so no love lost for my games of choice.

[Aussie2B]

Aussie2B, when did you ask me to find a game that has a worse localization? :-/ I know I told you to give me examples of bad translations in CV2. Yeah its bad engrish, but what game wasn't guilty back then? I'm not sure I can think of a game with a worse localization, but I can say that Ultima III on NES is definitely a vaguer PITA than CV2. Esp. with no manual. Im kind of numb to bad engrish.

I take that back! Hydlide 3 for MSX had a built in english mode, done by T&E soft themselves. It is the worst localization ever I think. Very dodgy.

So first you say that you can't see how CV2 has a bad localization at all, and then you struggle to think of any games that have worse? My argument wasn't that it was the worst localization of all-time, simply that it is widely regarded as having a bad one, which you argued against previously.

And saying "I'm used to it" or "Other games had too" doesn't excuse it away. So there you go, a flaw in the game that can't be attributed to the manual in any shape or form.

[j_factor]

I don't understand why we have pages of diatribes about Castlevania 2. Who cares?

[Berserker]

I think this thread should be locked, or this whole thread split, or something.


Kitsune's right, maybe all the CV2/Hydlidery should be split into a new thread.

No. If you didn't want this thread to be derailed, then you should have avoided participating in its derailment.

Anyway, it's not like there's anything preventing you from bringing things back on-track, if that's what you want to do. So if you want things to stay on-topic, then stop engaging each other in tangential arguments. Pretty simple, really.

[ryborg]

I don't understand why we have pages of diatribes about Castlevania 2. Who cares?

Exactly my point many moons and wasted words ago at the top of page three. You can objectively argue certain facts about a game, but what does it matter if one person likes it or not?

(I personally thing CV2 is almost unplayable garbage, regardless of what the AVGN or any other minor internet celebrity thinks)

[Arkhan]

So if something sucks, putting it in the manual makes it un-suck? No, ... hating something that sucks is justified, even if it's mentioned in the instructions.

its not that the things complained about suck per se (maybe it does to some).....Its about people who don't understand what they're supposed to be doing complaining about it. It'd be like someone buying a model airplane, throwing the manual out and bitching when they cant glue it together right.

then those people end up jumping on the OMGTHISGAMESUCKS4EVER bandwagon because someone else says so too, or a video is made that knocks the game.

-----------------------------

Aussie2B: It's not really a "bad localization". It just has bad engrish. You think it means its a bad localization, I think it means its normal for the time. The text isn't really THAT bad. Its not like what they say is so vague that it makes no sense. If you write the clues down and experiment, it all becomes pretty apparent. I think a bad localization would be if the translations were so jacked that not a letter of it makes any sense.

"struggling to find a worse localization" is me trying to think of a game with worse engrish off the top of my head. There really isn't anything worse. All of the bad engrish games are about the same as far as bad engrish is concerned. Most of its pretty comprehendable even if its wonky. Its not really a flaw in the game in any case. Its a flaw in someones translation work. If it were a game flaw, it would exist in the Japanese form too.

and when I say "give me an example of bad localization", i mean quotes from NPCs in CV2.

[Kitsune Sniper]

Dammit, stop derailing the friggin' topic. :(

[Aussie2B]

It's not really a "bad localization". It just has bad engrish. You think it means its a bad localization, I think it means its normal for the time. The text isn't really THAT bad. Its not like what they say is so vague that it makes no sense. If you write the clues down and experiment, it all becomes pretty apparent. I think a bad localization would be if the translations were so jacked that not a letter of it makes any sense.

"struggling to find a worse localization" is me trying to think of a game with worse engrish off the top of my head. There really isn't anything worse. All of the bad engrish games are about the same as far as bad engrish is concerned. Most of its pretty comprehendable even if its wonky. Its not really a flaw in the game in any case. Its a flaw in someones translation work. If it were a game flaw, it would exist in the Japanese form too.

and when I say "give me an example of bad localization", i mean quotes from NPCs in CV2.

Do you know what localization even means? If it's got bad Engrish, then that's a flaw in the localization and, in turn, the game. And I'd argue that it is vague to the point of not making sense. It's hard to tell apart the fake clues from the real clues because even the real ones sound like nonsense. And while the bad localization can't be pinned on the original developers, of course it's still a flaw in the game. Haven't you ever played a game in which the localization had cut content or added glitches? Wouldn't you call those flaws?

But with that, I'll say no more on CV2 if everybody wants to shift the topic off of that.

[Icarus Moonsight]

Maybe he just hates this thread, for it's own sake. That would sorta be on-top. LOL

[Arkhan]

Do you know what localization even means?

[nothing to do with castlevania 2, i swear]
I only consider it a "localization" if they jack the game around to make it more "appropriate". If its a straight up translation only kind of deal, complete with failure involved, I just see it as a translation.
[/ntdwcv2is]

Dr. Jekyl and Mr. Hyde is one of those "hate it cause AVGN" said so kinda games though.

Ive caught numerous people hating on the game but then you talk about the game and you know they've never even played it.

[Icarus Moonsight]

Localization is part of a quality translation. Raw translation can be utterly confusing. Sometimes there is no equivalent word for word exchange/substitution... And even if it's not really all that cryptic, you really can't expect too many outsiders to know regional slang, sayings and colloquialisms.

[pseudonym]

Dr. Jekyl is pretty awful but I've seen a few people that enjoy it. Same with Heroes of The Lance. There used to be a nutty group on GameFAQs that made all sort of threads about it, I don't know if they're still around.

Another more recent game that most people don't seem to like is Drakengard. I would agree the game isn't very good but the story, grim as it was, kept me playing far longer than it should have.

Castlevania 2 just had a poor translation. If that's not the case, putting false clues and misinformation in the game is sort of cheap IMO. I can imagine kids listening to what some of the people said in the game literally and spending hours trying to make it work (ie: Hitting your head on Deborah Cliff, and some of the others that are blatantly wrong).

[Arkhan]

Same with Heroes of The Lance.




That game was such a giant pile of disappointment in comparison to the other gold box games.

the problem is it had all of the appearance of an action game, and all of the pacing of a turn based RPG. :-/

[Kitsune Sniper]

Good god I fucking give up.

[Icarus Moonsight]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_ivpn7lWFNEw/SUwcqQcE6wI/AAAAAAAACOo/N9OHK8ZrgCw/s400/1229615011707.jpg