What was the most powerful handheld before GBA?

[BetaWolf47]

Excluding Turbo Express and Sega Nomad, what was the most powerful system prior to that? I think it's between Wonderswan Color and Neo Geo Pocket Color.

[Blanka789]

I'm gonna pick the GameGear, with the Lynx as a maybe.

[Baloo]

Game Gear for sure. Technology didn't become battery-life or cost-effective and on-par with the Game Gear until the GBA SP.

[LucidDefender]

I'd say the Lynx has the GameGear beat. I'd imagine the MOS 65SC02 would be faster than the Z80 in the GG, even though their clock speed is almost identical.

The Lynx has a fairly sophisticated graphics engine, whereas the the graphics capabilities of the GameGear basically consist of master system hardware with more colors.

[buzz_n64]

The Neo-Geo Pocket Color. 16 bit system running at 6.14 MHz(gbc sometimes used it's 8.4MHz processor, but was only an 8 bit system). The NGPC was faster than the Wonderswan color, and all other systems before the gba.

[portnoyd]

What buzz said. Every portable before it was 8-bit-ish, no?

[jb143]

Every portable before it was 8-bit-ish, no?

Lynx was 16-bit I believe. Not saying it's the most powerfull, though I'd choose it in a fight over a NGPC any day. It'd knock someone out cold.

[buzz_n64]

What buzz said. Every portable before it was 8-bit-ish, no?

microvision -4bit
lynx- 8bit
gb- 8bit
game gear- 8bit
gbc- 8bit
game com- 8bit
ngpc- 16bit
wsc- 16bit
gba- 32bit

[cityside75]

If we're strictly talking power and not quality of games (or the display, or the battery life, etc, etc), then I'd say Lynx for sure, just based on its sprite manipulation capabilities.

Just play Lynx Stun Runner, which is remarkably close to the arcade. Although it doesn't utilize polygons like the arcade, it very accurately replicates the look and feel with scaling sprites, it was a sprite scaling powerhouse. There wasn't another console that could scale sprites like the Lynx until the 32-bit era (aside from the Neo Geo). Since this was the most common hardware trick being used in the arcades at the time of the Lynx's release, it really did feel like it had arcade power to it.

I don't think another pre-GBA portable could replicate the Lynx version of Stun Runner.

[Manhattan Sports Club]

microvision -4bit
lynx- 8bit
gb- 8bit
game gear- 8bit
gbc- 8bit
game com- 8bit
ngpc- 16bit
wsc- 16bit
gba- 32bit

They all had their ups and downs. I don't know much about the Lynx or Game.com technically, but WSC was among the more graphically capable, however, it was also one of the slowest (3.5mhz, just below the original monochrome gameboy which was 4mhz).

[jb143]

Just checked...The lynx had a 8-bit main CPU with 16 bit address space, and a 16 bit GPU with a 16 bit math co-processor. Simply calling it 8-bit won't do.

But how many bits a CPU has isn't a good measure of "power" in and of itself. The Intellivision was a 16 machine after all.

[buzz_n64]

Just checked...The lynx had a 8-bit main CPU with 16 bit address space, and a 16 bit GPU with a 16 bit math co-processor. Simply calling it 8-bit won't do.

But how many bits a CPU has isn't a good measure of "power" in and of itself. The Intellivision was a 16 machine after all.

lynx
8bit
4.2MHz
64K ram
160by102 resolution
16 on screen colors

ngpc
16bit
6.144MHz
12k ram
152by160 resolution
146 on screen colors

The only thing better on the Lynx is the ram.

[Gameguy]

From what I can find, overall it's the Game Boy Color. The Nomad would be slightly better. I mostly took into account CPU speed and RAM, that's how I would really consider a system as powerful.

-8 MHz CPU
-32 kilobytes system RAM, 16 kilobytes video RAM
-up to 56 different colors simultaneously on screen from its palette of 32,768

Compare with the Game Gear;
-3.58MHz CPU
-8KB RAM, 16KB VRAM
-32 on-screen colours out of a palette of 4096

Neo Geo Pocket Color;
-Toshiba TLCS900H 6.144MHz CPU, Zilog Z80 clocked at 3.072MHz for sound
-12KB RAM for 900H, 4KB RAM for Z80, 64KB ROM
-146 colors on screen out of a palette of 4096

Atari Lynx
-MOS 65SC02 processor running at up to 4 MHz (~3.6 MHz average)
-RAM: 64 KB 120ns DRAM
-16 simultaneous colors out of 4,096 colors

TurboExpress
-HuC6280 clocked at 7.16 MHz or 1.79MHz(switchable in software)
-8KB RAM
-481 colours on-screen out of 512 colours

WonderSwan Color
-CPU: SPGY-1002 at 3.072 MHz
-Memory: 64 kB VRAM/WRAM (shared)
-colors: 241 on screen out of 4096 colors

[neuropolitique]

Lynx, easily


Atari Lynx
-16 simultaneous colors out of 4,096 colors

that's per scanline. Each scanline can have a different 16 colors if you wish.

[buzz_n64]

Are you guys going by the games or the systems, because the specs speak for themselves. We're talking about fact here, not opinion.

[jb143]

lynx
8bit
4.2MHz
64K ram
160by102 resolution
16 on screen colors

ngpc
16bit
6.144MHz
12k ram
152by160 resolution
146 on screen colors

The only thing better on the Lynx is the ram.

You're completely ignoring the GPU. I'm not arguing that the Lynx is the most powerful. Read my other posts for that. If anything I'm arguing that asking for the "most powerful" can't simply be based on 1 or 2 factors. This is comming from a computer engineer.

[Ed Oscuro]

MIPS or bust

[buzz_n64]

MIPS or bust

:argue: :) I miss the silicone graphic days and that sm64 rabbit.

[neuropolitique]

Are you guys going by the games or the systems, because the specs speak for themselves. We're talking about fact here, not opinion.

Your facts are wrong. the NGPC can have 146 on screen colors. the Lynx can have over 1600 colors on screen.

[buzz_n64]

Your facts are wrong. the NGPC can have 146 on screen colors. the Lynx can have over 1600 colors on screen.

Okay, so there is more to the basic info that I listed that changes the equation, I'll admit that I'm wrong, and the basic specs are not as straight forward as they seem. I'm sorry, but did you really have to kick me off the chat out of anger?

[neuropolitique]

I called you a douche too. Mostly because of your haughty attitude.

[ccovell]

I'd say it's the Lynx, simply because of its GPU which both took a serious load off the CPU and added functionality to it too (fast 16-bit hardware multiplication & division registers, virtually unlimited 16-colour sprites (not limited to 3 (NGPC) or the 8(?) that WS had), collision detection, and sprite scaling.)

Remember that the designers of the Lynx chose the 6502 OVER the more powerful 68000 because even at the same clock speed the 6502 could do some operations faster.

[MarioMania]

How come the Lynx sound like 8 bit??

[Ze_ro]

Just play Lynx Stun Runner, which is remarkably close to the arcade. Although it doesn't utilize polygons like the arcade, it very accurately replicates the look and feel with scaling sprites, it was a sprite scaling powerhouse.
Aside from scaling, the Lynx's GPU can do some really interesting sprite stretching and shearing operations, which I think are actually used to do the 3D effects in STUN Runner (ie, each polygon is a contorted sprite)... though I might be wrong about that.

Steel Talons and Hard Drivin' also do some fairly decent 3D, though not quite as well done as STUN Runner. The sprite scaling also worked extremely well in games like Hydra and Blue Lightning, while some of the stretching effects are noticeable in Slime World and Gates of Zendocon, especially when things pulsate. I've done a small amount of programming on the Lynx too, and the sprite effects really are quite nice, with very few restrictions.

One thing I always found with the Lynx though, was that the games were ultimately fairly shallow... especially stuff like Dirty Larry and Kung Food, where you just run into the same enemies over and over and over again. I'm not sure whether to blame this on Atari's programmers being lazy (Hell, Xenophobe was amazing, so why does Batman suck so bad?), or if it's simply a downside of using extra memory to hold all the graphics data (which would explain why I get the same feeling from a lot of Game Gear games).

--Zero

[Dr. Dib]

Where would the Virtual Boy fit in? According to wikipedia it had a 32-bit RISC processor @ 20 MHZ (18 MIPS).

Or are we not counting it has a hand held because you technically didn't hold it in your hand?

[Ed Oscuro]

:argue: :) I miss the silicone graphic days and that sm64 rabbit.
I actually mean Million Instructions Per Second here, but sure, why not?

Anyway, I'd have to say that the cool stuff the Lynx can do puts it way out there amongst handhelds pre-GBA. I'd hesitate to add the Turbo Express or the Nomad, as fun as those are, because the hardware designs weren't dictated by being portable, but rather on being compatible with a real home system from some years before (and also being theoretically portable - myself, I always took along a power brick for the Nomad). But, at the end of the day, the actual game software is what counts.

[buzz_n64]

I actually mean Million Instructions Per Second here, but sure, why not?

Anyway, I'd have to say that the cool stuff the Lynx can do puts it way out there amongst handhelds pre-GBA. I'd hesitate to add the Turbo Express or the Nomad, as fun as those are, because the hardware designs weren't dictated by being portable, but rather on being compatible with a real home system from some years before (and also being theoretically portable - myself, I always took along a power brick for the Nomad). But, at the end of the day, the actual game software is what counts.

I was referring to the unrelated MIPS (Microprocessor without Interlocked Pipeline Stages) microprocessor. Nintendo 64's CPU was a MIPS type, and thus the technology gave its name to the character.
# MIPS, along with Mario himself, were the first characters created for Super Mario 64. He was used extensively in early Nintendo 64 test simulations and ultimately made it into the final game because the development team liked him so much.

[Steve W]

One thing I always found with the Lynx though, was that the games were ultimately fairly shallow... especially stuff like Dirty Larry and Kung Food, where you just run into the same enemies over and over and over again. I'm not sure whether to blame this on Atari's programmers being lazy (Hell, Xenophobe was amazing, so why does Batman suck so bad?), or if it's simply a downside of using extra memory to hold all the graphics data (which would explain why I get the same feeling from a lot of Game Gear games).
It might have something to do with the sad fact that the Tramiels didn't care about video games, and didn't give the programmers the resources they needed. For example, the near-legendary story of how they chopped Dracula: The Undead in half to use a smaller cartridge size and save money. It might also have something to do with the Tramiels essentially burning or burying anyone who worked for or partnered with them. After a while, they probably couldn't get the best programmers anymore.


I have to throw my hat into the ring and state that the Lynx has to be the most powerful. It was very similar to a portable Amiga computer, after all. Could the Neo•Geo Pocket Color do polygons like in Steel Talons or Hard Drivin'? I don't know much about the Wonderswan, but I haven't heard about any 3D capabilities. It seems that all these mid-to-late '90s developed handhelds were aiming more toward battery life than raw horsepower. The Lynx, Game Gear, and Nomad showed how energy hungry that kind of thing was.

[retroman]

lynx by far....could any of the others before gba push polygons and scale. Dont think so.

[Ed Oscuro]

I was referring to the unrelated MIPS (Microprocessor without Interlocked Pipeline Stages) microprocessor.
You don't say. I've known about it, and in any case it's (as you say) unrelated.

[cityside75]

Aside from scaling, the Lynx's GPU can do some really interesting sprite stretching and shearing operations, which I think are actually used to do the 3D effects in STUN Runner (ie, each polygon is a contorted sprite)... though I might be wrong about that.

Steel Talons and Hard Drivin' also do some fairly decent 3D, though not quite as well done as STUN Runner. The sprite scaling also worked extremely well in games like Hydra and Blue Lightning, while some of the stretching effects are noticeable in Slime World and Gates of Zendocon, especially when things pulsate. I've done a small amount of programming on the Lynx too, and the sprite effects really are quite nice, with very few restrictions.

One thing I always found with the Lynx though, was that the games were ultimately fairly shallow... especially stuff like Dirty Larry and Kung Food, where you just run into the same enemies over and over and over again. I'm not sure whether to blame this on Atari's programmers being lazy (Hell, Xenophobe was amazing, so why does Batman suck so bad?), or if it's simply a downside of using extra memory to hold all the graphics data (which would explain why I get the same feeling from a lot of Game Gear games).

--Zero

It's hard to believe how old the Lynx design is, and how long it took for other portables to catch up with it features-wise.

I always imagined most Lynx games being programmed by a "Blue-Sky Rangers" type of group, young programmers fresh out of school with very little experience. So many of its games had a really rough and amateurish feel to them, but at least it had a few gems that showed off the power of the hardware.

Imagine if Sega had licensed the Handy technology instead of going with the Game Gear. The Lynx could have really done justice to those late 80's early 90's Sega arcade games.

[cityside75]

lynx by far....could any of the others before gba push polygons and scale. Dont think so.

While I agree with your assessment, didn't a version of Hard Drivin' actually get released for the original Gameboy?

[j_factor]

Just because the Lynx was designed to do one thing that the others weren't (i.e. scaling), and therefore does it better, doesn't mean it's more powerful overall. Scaling in the Lynx is a feature of the GPU. It's not power. I'm with Ed Oscuro: MIPS or bust.

That said, the Lynx may very well be it regardless. The only one that might be more powerful is NGPC. Hard to say.

[goldenegg]

While I agree with your assessment, didn't a version of Hard Drivin' actually get released for the original Gameboy?

It did, under the name "Race Drivin'". Plays terribly and doesn't look much better. Don't confuse this release with any ability on the Gameboy's part to properly display polygon graphics with scaling.

Ugh ... why oh why did I pull out the game to try again when I read this post?

[MarioMania]

If the Lynx is a 16-bit..why does it look & sound 8 bit??

[jb143]

MIPS or bust

You mean the Meaningless Indicator of Processor Speed? ;)(CE joke)


If the Lynx is a 16-bit..why does it look & sound 8 bit??

The sound is 8-bit. The reason it would "look 8-bit" would have more to do with how a particular game was programmed and probally has a lot to do with the resolution and dpi of the screen. The graphics processor is 16-bit(running at 16 MHz) The main processor that handles the normal processing tasks is 8-bit. Bit again, you could ask the same thing about the Intellivision, it is 16 bits as well.

[CMA Death Adder]

Take a look at Zaku (http://www.zaku-lynx.com/) to see what the Lynx hardware is truly capable of. That is one powerful handheld, and it took ages for the other manufacturers to catch up to its unique abilities.

[old_skoolin_jim]

The Neo-Geo Pocket Color. 16 bit system running at 6.14 MHz(gbc sometimes used it's 8.4MHz processor, but was only an 8 bit system). The NGPC was faster than the Wonderswan color, and all other systems before the gba.

Agreed. Play SNK Vs. Capcom: Match of the Millennium and you'll understand.

[Zap!]

The NEC Turbo Express.

[Sosage]

Are we counting the Nomad? Whoops! :P

[123►Genei-Jin]

The NEC Turbo Express.


Are we counting the Nomad? Whoops! :P

:shameful:

1st post:


Excluding Turbo Express and Sega Nomad, what was the most powerful system prior to that? I think it's between Wonderswan Color and Neo Geo Pocket Color.

[dendawg]

I personally think it's a toss-up between the NGPC and the Lynx.

IMHO, since the Turbo Express and Nomad are disqualified, because they're basically portable TG16's and Genesis, so should the Game Gear be disqualified, as it's essentially a portablized SMS.

[neuropolitique]

I personally think it's a toss-up between the NGPC and the Lynx.

IMHO, since the Turbo Express and Nomad are disqualified, because they're basically portable TG16's and Genesis, so should the Game Gear be disqualified, as it's essentially a portablized SMS.

It's actually a bit more capable than the Master System, which is sad. But it's not really in the running anyway.

[MarioMania]

Would Street Fighter 2 be possible on the Lynx, if it 16 bit

[goldenegg]

Would Street Fighter 2 be possible on the Lynx, if it 16 bit

There's a lot more than bits that determines whether a certain game can run on a system. I'm surprised to see some of the posts in this thread. I'd have thought everyone learned a long time ago that bits aren't everything.

[acem77]

Lynx
the scaling, rotations and sample sounds put most consoles to shame back then.

[Jorpho]

Would Street Fighter 2 be possible on the Lynx, if it 16 bitThere was a port of Street Fighter 2 to the B&W Game Boy!

[buzz_n64]

There was a port of Street Fighter 2 to the B&W Game Boy!

Same with Killer Instinct and Mortal Kombat, but they didn't push the system to it's limits because the ports were dramatically scaled down.

[Zap!]

The Microvision. :)

[jb143]

The Microvision. :)

Are you interpreting "powerfull" as it's ability to be used as a lever?LOL

[CMA Death Adder]

Would Street Fighter 2 be possible on the Lynx, if it 16 bit

In fact, a very nice, detailed version of a fighting game like Street Fighter II could be produced for the Lynx, with the right programmer behind it. The system's D-PAD may not be the best choice for a game like that, however.

[The Clonus Horror]

I watched that Zaku video and I must say that it's impressive! I never had a Lynx. Then again, I've never owned a portable system until I picked up the PSP for God of War: Chains of Olympus. Played it, haven't touched it since. What can I say, I'll always prefer big screens.