Why are many old school RPGs so expensive?

[Nintega Grafx-16]

I've seen a loose Chrono Trigger at a record store near me for about $60 and Ys III for the Turbo Grafx doesn't seem to cheap either these days. Don't get me started on Earthbound...

[obesolete]

because they're highly sought after. supply and demand. that's it.

[Zoltor]

I've seen a loose Chrono Trigger at a record store near me for about $60 and Ys III for the Turbo Grafx doesn't seem to cheap either these days. Don't get me started on Earthbound...

Because they are amazing(while new school RPGs keep getting worse), so the demand is through the roof. With RPGs, being good helps drive the prics(and alot of RPGs have additional paperwork, paperwork that is actually used, so a game that is complete, can easily double the price, on top of it already being in high demand). In RPGs, it being a good gams, is a much bigger deal, then it being a crappy, but super rare game, so games that are both get pretty expensive(Earthbound for example).

[Richter Belmount]

Rpgs can be overrated , but I think they are expensive cause people are way to attached to them. Alot of factors , supply ,demand, perception to be amazing , I paid 32 dollars for a loose Earthbound the 1st time and I laugh when I see prices go up to 90 dollars for just a loose cart years later after.

[FoxNtd]

What'll blow your mind is the cost of these on the Japanese version side is much lower...! I looked up Chrono Trigger for SFC, CIB, and it's under $30. Chrono Trigger tends to go for $60-$70 for the loose SNES version. I was lucky to get mine for $30-$35 loose; I got the price down because I made a $120 deal with the guy for a bunch of stuff. In fact, he added more things than I asked for. He lowered the price much further for me. LOL

I haven't confirmed if this is the dominant trend but I did also look up a random cost for the FF games on SFC and they completely undermine the SNES loose cart costs.

[Arkhan]

its a "omg raer" thing.

though what happens is a bunch show up at once and then it isnt so OMG RAER anymore.



I got earthbound for free. Yeah, I said it.

[Zoltor]

What'll blow your mind is the cost of these on the Japanese version side is much lower...! I looked up Chrono Trigger for SFC, CIB, and it's under $30. Chrono Trigger tends to go for $60-$70 for the loose SNES version. I was lucky to get mine for $30-$35 loose; I got the price down because I made a $120 deal with the guy for a bunch of stuff. In fact, he added more things than I asked for. He lowered the price much further for me. LOL

I haven't confirmed if this is the dominant trend but I did also look up a random cost for the FF games on SFC and they completely undermine the SNES loose cart costs.

There is a simple reason for that, there are a lot more RPGs that's not released outside of Japan, in fact, they are flooded with great RPGs from the SNES days, so there are plenty to choose from, thus lowering demand for any one game. On top of that, there were more made in Japan, then the US releases in general.

[DuckTalesNES]

Extremely high demand and the fact that when people get them, they hold onto them and don't re-sell often.

[nectarsis]

Partially because up until more recent times (PS1 forward) rpg's were still MUCH more niche than most other genre's. Obviously smaller print runs vs. let's say sports games, etc.

P.S. For the 1,976th time Ys III for teh TG is neither that rare, or pricey.

[Therealqtip]

I got earthbound for free. Yeah, I said it.

SS or it never happened

[gepeto]

I've seen a loose Chrono Trigger at a record store near me for about $60 and Ys III for the Turbo Grafx doesn't seem to cheap either these days. Don't get me started on Earthbound...

I just saw an auction for y3 tutbo cd go for 12.00 on ebay

[Aussie2B]

Partially because up until more recent times (PS1 forward) rpg's were still MUCH more niche than most other genre's. Obviously smaller print runs vs. let's say sports games, etc.

That would be the correct answer to this question. Even in this day and age, the market for them in the US is still quite a bit smaller than for many other genres (although their reach into the mainstream varies if you looking at, say, Final Fantasy vs. the latest Atelier game or some such), but it was certainly a niche product back then. Because of that, not only were print runs relatively small but they also only bothered to localize what they considered to be the best of the best (and even then countless top tier RPGs never left Japan). So when you combine the low supply, reputation for quality, and the dedicated fan base, then you have a perfect recipe for valuable games.

[kupomogli]

I got earthbound for free. Yeah, I said it.

Prove it!

[Arkhan]

SS or it never happened

well i donno how im supposed to screen shot someone leaving it at my house and then going to jail for 2 years and vanishing from earth :)

But I do have earthbound, loose :D

[kupomogli]

But I do have earthbound, loose :D

Cartridgiality?

[Nintega Grafx-16]

well i donno how im supposed to screen shot someone leaving it at my house and then going to jail for 2 years and vanishing from earth :)

But I do have earthbound, loose :D

You are one lucky mother f-er. Speaking of good deals, I only paid $5 for a loose Lufia II at a Game Crazy store before it closed down and became a generic 99 cents store #101

[ScourDX]

Demand makes it expensive, but you can still find most of RPG for reasonable price if you know where to look.

[Orion Pimpdaddy]

It's about graphics. Games with good graphics during the 90's look visually outdated to many people today. So that lowers the demand. However, RPGs are story driven, not graphically driven. They are the classical literature of the video game world.

[DonMarco]

Yeah, there's the thrill of having/playing/selling a hunk of plastic. Some bragging rights or just plugging a hole in your collection. A childhood wish realized.

There's also the fact that re-releases and ports are never what you remember. The recent Chronotrigger and Final Fantasy DS games had new translations and content added. Not to mention "updating" them 2.5D or 3D. Throwing in stylus-based menu controls just because. The smaller things like adding CG cutscenes, voice actors, changing the soundtrack.

Yes, this is a thinly veiled post against Square Enix and the SNES games. On the Genesis side, everything you could possibly want was on the Ultimate Genesis Collection on he PS3 and 360.

[chrisbid]

they didnt sell well in the day (or now, really), so the number on the market is relatively low while their fanbase (including me) is borderline retarded.

at least we would never pay 40k for any of these games

[Zoltor]

Yeah, there's the thrill of having/playing/selling a hunk of plastic. Some bragging rights or just plugging a hole in your collection. A childhood wish realized.

There's also the fact that re-releases and ports are never what you remember. The recent Chronotrigger and Final Fantasy DS games had new translations and content added. Not to mention "updating" them 2.5D or 3D. Throwing in stylus-based menu controls just because. The smaller things like adding CG cutscenes, voice actors, changing the soundtrack.

Yes, this is a thinly veiled post against Square Enix and the SNES games. On the Genesis side, everything you could possibly want was on the Ultimate Genesis Collection on he PS3 and 360.

Omg tell me about it, Square is actually taking content out of the release of DQ6(why the hell would you do that, It's not like you have less space to work with, then you had 15 years ago on a cart). Square did make a few good releases/remakes(Aka FF Anthology 5/6, and FF origins jp2/1), but most of their remakes have been butchered to high heaven.

Needless to say, almost all the time, It's actually better to play the original game, not some scab, companies dare to call a remake(remake my ass, most so called remakes, don't even feel like the same game).

[ScourDX]

Omg tell me about it, Square is actually taking content out of the release of DQ6(why the hell would you do that, It's not like you have less space to work with, then you had 15 years ago on a cart). Square did make a few good releases/remakes(Aka FF Anthology 5/6, and FF origins jp2/1), but most of their remakes have been butchered to high heaven.

Needless to say, almost all the time, It's actually better to play the original game, not some scab, companies dare to call a remake(remake my ass, most so called remakes, don't even feel like the same game).

I don't think company like SquareEnix or Namco Bandai are remaking games for the sake of hardcore fans. They are doing it for the newer generation gamers who aren't born in the 8-bit/16-bit era.

[j_factor]

RPG's have always been more expensive. I remember way back in the day, Dragon Warrior IV was always the highest price on an NES game in Funcoland's price list.

I'd bet RPG fans are just more likely to hang on to their games. The explanation that they were unpopular, and thus had lower print runs is only true to an extent. I mean there are plenty of non-RPGs that were not popular and didn't have many copies printed, that are dirt cheap, or at least reasonable.

[mobiusclimber]

Yes but who wants a copy of Captain Novolin? It's supply and demand, not one or the other.

[j_factor]

Yes but who wants a copy of Captain Novolin? It's supply and demand, not one or the other.

I'm not just talking about bad games, but yes. It is both. Hence why the common explanation that they simply had fewer copies (compared to what?) is inadequate.

[mobiusclimber]

There are plenty of great RPGs that also aren't expensive at all, some of which had low print runs too (I think). I really couldn't even get into the whole what-drives-the-market thing. It's like, why is EVO expensive and Spike McFang isn't? Crystalis is my favorite NES RPG but not expensive at all. Granted that one saw a fairly big print run if I'm not mistaken.

Actually when I think about it, RPGs on the SNES tend to be the expensive ones. Yeah Saturn has a couple expensive RPGs, but man.... the SNES really takes the cake w/ the number of expensive ones. The NES only has one expensive RPG (DW4) and that's come down in price (unless you want to count CIB, then you've got Faria, but even then it's not TOO expensive).

[Zoltor]

I don't think company like SquareEnix or Namco Bandai are remaking games for the sake of hardcore fans. They are doing it for the newer generation gamers who aren't born in the 8-bit/16-bit era.

True enough, but companies have been going way overboard with how they do it.

Making the graphics clearer/less pixelated= good, changing the graphics completely or turning them into 3D=bad.

making a real hard game slightly easier= debatebly good, making a already faily easy game, insanely easy=bad(example adding free seeds, and a super OPed class in the DQ3 remake).

Removing content from a game, is never a good thing, nor is removing entire aspects from a game.

If they are gonna butcher the remakes to such an extent, they shouldn't remake them at all, instead since these are Japanese games anyway, bring over the graphical Novels of the games(if the only thing that companies these days seem to be focusing on, is Graphics, and Story anyway, with basically every other aspect of the original game being left out or completely screwed up), it would not only be a much more effective way to do what companies are trying to do, but also much cheaper to make.

PS. What really pisses me off, is that crappy remakes give the wrong impression of what the game is suppose to be, so new school gamers who pick it up, because they have heard old scool gamers talk about the greatness of it their entire life, get the wrong idea one way or another, about the game.

[Zoltor]

There are plenty of great RPGs that also aren't expensive at all, some of which had low print runs too (I think). I really couldn't even get into the whole what-drives-the-market thing. It's like, why is EVO expensive and Spike McFang isn't? Crystalis is my favorite NES RPG but not expensive at all. Granted that one saw a fairly big print run if I'm not mistaken.

Actually when I think about it, RPGs on the SNES tend to be the expensive ones. Yeah Saturn has a couple expensive RPGs, but man.... the SNES really takes the cake w/ the number of expensive ones. The NES only has one expensive RPG (DW4) and that's come down in price (unless you want to count CIB, then you've got Faria, but even then it's not TOO expensive).

Yea, Crystalis is godly, easily the best Atction/RPG of all time

7th Saga can probally be bought for a pretty cheap price(it can be insanely hard for the first time playing it, depending on party member, but It's a very good RPG), just has a wird style that may take 30 min to get use to.

Faria is a very rare Action/RPG, but unless it has the box, and whatnot, doesn't cost much, so that's another cheap game.

[FoxNtd]

I picked up Crystalis for just $4.99 at a PNT. :)

It didn't save though. I opened it up and found some electrical tape loosely attached around the CR2032 battery. It just needed to be replaced with something that holds more tightly. I figured I'd try using a good application of tape instead of soldering this time around and it holds just fine.

Pretty cool game, was shocked to find it so cheap. Is it different at all from the Famicom version, God Slayer?

Also, I heard the GBC port was lousy so I suppose it ought to be avoided.

[Zoltor]

I picked up Crystalis for just $4.99 at a PNT. :)

It didn't save though. I opened it up and found some electrical tape loosely attached around the CR2032 battery. It just needed to be replaced with something that holds more tightly. I figured I'd try using a good application of tape instead of soldering this time around and it holds just fine.

Pretty cool game, was shocked to find it so cheap. Is it different at all from the Famicom version, God Slayer?

Also, I heard the GBC port was lousy so I suppose it ought to be avoided.

Well you need to get it to save(you so can't play this game without a save feature), so do what you can.

I don't know about God Slayer, but It's probally very close to what we got(our Crystalis is so good, that there has been no reason to try, and translate the Japanes version, so I can't be sure).

Yea, whatever you do, stay away from the remake, It's pretty bad.

[Eb69]

Sne RPGs are expensive because they are good and they are fairly hard to come by in comparison to say Donkey Kong Country. Then on top of that games like Final Fantasy III and Chrono trigger were like 70 or 80 bucks when they were new (and people complain about paying $60 now). That was still a good chunk of change back in they day. Heck minimum wage was just reaching $5 an hour in alot of states and gas was still less than a buck a gallon.

Next, if you are dumb enough to pay more than $30 for a cart only Chrono Trigger or Final Fantasy III now, then there is no helping you. They go in open auctions for around that all the time. A little patience with your local Craigslist community goes a long way as well. Just because some dude with more money then sense falls victim to overpriced resellers on Ebay, does not dictate what a realistic value of a game is.

Earthbound is a whole other story though, and makes absolutetly no sense to me why it's a freaking $100 cart now. I remember passing on a $40 CIB copy in a local store like 8 or 9 years ago because it wasn't fetching much more than that on Ebay and wasn't that great of a deal.

Final Fantasy VII is another one that confuses me. It was mass produced to start with, then it got a greatest hits release, and now you can DL it to play through the PSN on the PSP or the PS3. Yet for some unknown reason people are still paying $50 or more for it. It's not uncommon at all. I don't know a store that still carries PS1 games that DOESN'T have a copy of the damn thing, most have multiple copies. 2 or 3 years ago I wouldn't have given you more than 5 or 10 bucks for it, yet now all of a sudden people think they are made out of gold. Something like Suikoden II, Shining Force 3 or Valkyrie Profile I get it. Especially Suikoden II that had such a limited release and has never seen a re-release of any kind in the US. (wtb the freaking psp game with Suikoden 1 and 2 on it being localized!!!).

Anyway, for every RPG that seems to pull unexplainable prices there are 10 more RPGs that are incredible games and can be had for 10 or 15 bucks. Secret of Evermore, Illusion of Gaia, Chrono Cross, Grandia, etc. They just never recieved all the hype that something like Final Fantasy was given.

[FoxNtd]

A little patience with your local Craigslist community goes a long way as well.

I can vouch for this. Craigslist and six months got me Chrono Trigger (SNES loose) for roughly $30. I was a bit surprised that the deal worked out such that CT was knocked down that low but, then again, like you, he probably knew its actual value isn't all that high.



Anyway, for every RPG that seems to pull unexplainable prices there are 10 more RPGs that are incredible games and can be had for 10 or 15 bucks. Secret of Evermore, Illusion of Gaia, Chrono Cross, Grandia, etc. They just never recieved all the hype that something like Final Fantasy was given.

Grandia for $10-$15? I need to look harder. I've only glanced at it. However, Grandia II for Dreamcast does not seem to be that expensive, falling into the range you specified. I am not yet too familiar with the series at all, but I heard somewhere that Grandia II is one of the best RPGs for DC, and possibly one of the best titles overall on the platform. As for the original on PS1, I see many floating around on Amazon for $35 and up. Like I said, I need to look elsewhere, but that was to give you an idea how much it goes for at certain vendors.

[Aussie2B]

There are plenty of great RPGs that also aren't expensive at all, some of which had low print runs too (I think). I really couldn't even get into the whole what-drives-the-market thing. It's like, why is EVO expensive and Spike McFang isn't? Crystalis is my favorite NES RPG but not expensive at all. Granted that one saw a fairly big print run if I'm not mistaken.

Actually when I think about it, RPGs on the SNES tend to be the expensive ones. Yeah Saturn has a couple expensive RPGs, but man.... the SNES really takes the cake w/ the number of expensive ones. The NES only has one expensive RPG (DW4) and that's come down in price (unless you want to count CIB, then you've got Faria, but even then it's not TOO expensive).

It's really pretty simple, it all comes down to reputation. Most RPG fans don't know and/or care about Spike McFang. Plus it's got a dopey looking cover that makes it seem more like a crappy Aero the Acro-Bat rip-off rather than an RPG, and it was released by Bullet Proof Software which means nothing to RPG fans. E.V.O., on the other hand, does have a fairly strong cult following, with fans praising its innovation among other traits, it was released by Enix, and it's got a Koichi Sugiyama soundtrack. On GameFAQs, McFang has 4 reviews, while E.V.O. has a couple dozen. I'm not saying these traits guaranteed E.V.O.'s value, but it does help explain it, especially in comparison to Spike McFang. But I wouldn't call E.V.O. an RPG in the first place because it doesn't play remotely like one (it's more its own unique thing, but if I had to pigeon-hole it, I'd say it's some sort of weird sim/platformer hybrid). But coming from a company known for its RPGs and featuring a prominent RPG composer will definitely pique the interests of the RPG crowd.

The SNES has the most expensive RPGs because it has the most RPGs with big reputations. Most fans of Japanese RPGs back then knew that the Genesis wasn't the best platform to buy if that's what you were seeking, and most people view NES RPGs as being pretty archaic. Even if they have a lot of history, most people don't want to play Dragon Warrior 1 or 2 these days. Dragon Warrior 3 and 4 are considered the most accessible and the highest quality, so they're more likely to pull in more money. Plus each game had a progressively smaller print run.

[Richter Belmount]

There are plenty of great genesis rpgs , like landstalker , crusader of centy , shining force 1 , phantasy star 1-4 and 2 and Lunar star story 1 and 2 , popful mail for sega cd.

Snes rpgs are hard to come by? Thats a load , they are just the most in demand.

[tom]

Chrono Trigger and Earthbound and all those Japanese RPGs are not old school RPGs.
Ultima, Might of Magic, Temple of Apshai, Gold boxes, those series of RPGs are old school.

Have to agree with the judge though, Genesis has some great RPGs, try those and at least they are not so overpriced than the SNES overated stuff.

[mobiusclimber]

Yeah the only RPGs on the Genesis I can think of that are "expensive" would be strat-RPGs like Shining Force II & Master of Monsters, and the action-RPG Crusader of Centy, but that's really only if you want them CIB. Definitely some great RPG for cheap, especially if you're looking for some non-DW-style RPGs. (Shadowrun as a for instance.)

As for EVO, I'd argue that it has a level up system, a storyline... it's kinda like Zelda LttP in that you could argue it's any number of genres (heck, same w/ Spike McFang, I think all three could be lumped into Action-Adventure and call it a day, tho EVO is certainly the most unique of them).

[mr obscure]

[QUOTE=Zoltor;1692767]Because they are amazing(while new school RPGs keep getting worse),

Tell me about it!:shameful:

[Arkhan]

. Secret of Evermore, Illusion of Gaia, Chrono Cross, Grandia, etc. They just never recieved all the hype that something like Final Fantasy was given.

anyone who hates on Illusion of Gaia and Chrono Cross isn't a human!

[Aussie2B]

I'd say Chrono Cross was more than sufficiently hyped up. Other than the Final Fantasy games, it was THE big RPG at the time that everybody was eagerly anticipating. It completely overshadowed any other RPG released near it, which is probably why Valkyrie Profile didn't sell that well, despite that I'd say it's a massively better RPG. As for these days, it's not that hyped up because it's such divisive game. There's probably just as many people that hate it as people who love it, and that doesn't equal a reputation that's going to pull in big bucks. It was a failure of a sequel for people who really loved Chrono Trigger and were hoping for something at least somewhat similar, and even taken on its own it's got a whole slew of problems that annoy many people.

[Daria]

I'd like to point out that most old school RPGs aren't that expensive. It's really only a popular minority that continues to steadily raise in value.

But to answer the OP's question, many of the high priced RPGs were all late releases for their respective consoles (dragon warrior 4, earthbound, valkyrie profile, panzer dragoon saga etc). This means two things. First, each game stands for the best their hardware could deliver. And secondly, many consumers had already moved onto the next big system leading to poor sales with no second print runs, resulting in a limited supply. Factor in some latent ROM hype, word of mouth, and glowing online reviews and demand steadily increases.

As for why RPGs in general are more likely to reach that legendary status than say a simple platformer; I'd like to attribute that to length. When someone buys a platformer they can generally run through it in a single sitting, once experienced they player can flip it if the experence wasn't next to godliness and move onto something new. RPGs can take awhile to finish, real life steps in and the game languishes on the shelf collecting dust while the player's backlog continues to grow in proportional size to the queue of eager fans scowering ebay for a copy. Bidders fight over available copies like ravished dogs and the bidding wars ensue.

I'd also like to think new blood has a hand in this as well. Fans grow up, get their first jobs and without any bills to pay they now officially have more money than sense. So these eager new fans hunt out the classics of their beloved developers. Of the old powerhouses the only companies still releasing new RPGs are Nintendo and Square. Sega's around but who in their right mind would hunt down a Shining game after playing Exa or Neo? Except apparently Saturn fans since SF3 is still pretty pricey.

[Aussie2B]

This topic really needs some bar set as to what "expensive" is. I'd say if a game, especially if loose, is selling for 20-30 dollars, then that's enough to start calling it "expensive", if only in comparison to the average price of other games in said system's library. Sure, in the grand scheme of things that's not much money, but it's enough to say there's something going on with the supply and/or demand of a game to increase it over other titles.

[Zthun]

Why Chrono Trigger would be $50 amazes me. The DS version is an exact identical copy with extra features. No graphical changes, no toning down of the system; it was just chrono trigger. It added an extra ending that bridged the gap between trigger and cross. The DS version is the best version of the current 3 released.

I can see Earthbound being expensive though. The cult following is a REAL CULT following. Like, those guys would sacrifice pigs and strap bombs to their chests to see it released on the Wii Virtual Console. Earthbound fans are f****** hardcore!

[Zoltor]

Why Chrono Trigger would be $50 amazes me. The DS version is an exact identical copy with extra features. No graphical changes, no toning down of the system; it was just chrono trigger. It added an extra ending that bridged the gap between trigger and cross. The DS version is the best version of the current 3 released.

I can see Earthbound being expensive though. The cult following is a REAL CULT following. Like, those guys would sacrifice pigs and strap bombs to their chests to see it released on the Wii Virtual Console. Earthbound fans are f****** hardcore!

I haven't played the DS remake(perhaps I'll try it someday, but there is little point to buy it, when you own the original), but lets say you're right, and It't an exact port(with maybe a bonus dungeon or something just added to it), the original would still have a huge advantage over the remake. There's a huge differance between playing a game on a 12 in screen or whatnot, and a 32in or bigger screen(in pretty much every case, the original will win out).

PS. It's different if a game is only on a portibly(like the godly FF Legend 2 or gameboy castlevania games, but even then lol, I have Super Game Boy to fix that).

It's ashame you can't play a DS game on the wii(after all SD cards, and DS cards are identical as far as the card type used, just the wii doesn't have a DS Emulator, thus can't read the specially formatted DS cards). Granted you wouldn't beable to play games that abuse the crap out of the touch screen(unless Nintendo added a key mapping override system to the emulator), but the other games would be great.

[kupomogli]

There's a huge differance between playing a game on a 12 in screen or whatnot, and a 32in or bigger screen(in pretty much every case, the original will win out).

Nintendo should release a DSi with a 12 inch screen. The DSi XL would have nothing on that.

The regular DS screen is only three inches btw.

[Zoltor]

Nintendo should release a DSi with a 12 inch screen. The DSi XL would have nothing on that.

The regular DS screen is only three inches btw.

4in or whatever the hell it is lol, doesn't matter, small is still small(and since gaming has a wierd stigma in the US, most people will be using it indoors anyway, so It's pointless to play a game on a portible, when you can play the same game on a console, which uses the nice big TV).

[Zthun]

anyone who hates on Illusion of Gaia and Chrono Cross isn't a human!

The only flaw in Crono Cross was that it wasn't Crono Trigger.

[Zoltor]

The only flaw in Crono Cross was that it wasn't Crono Trigger.

Pretty much, the problem with that game is, it was advertised/treated as if it were a sequal to Chrono Trigger, well it Isn't even close to Chrono Trigger.

While It's not anywhere near as great as Chrono Trigger, It's far from a bad game, but imagine playing that, expecting it to be atleast as great as Chrono Trigger(and hoping somehow it would even surpass it), and a Sequal to boot.

Needless to say, it was rather dissapointing, so you really can't blame people for not liking it that much. If it was marketing as a completely new game, that was just influanced by Chrono Trigger, people would've treated it better.

[mobiusclimber]

I must be the only person who likes Chrono Cross more than Trigger. But... I don't really care for Trigger at all. I'm playing the DS remake and this is my second playthru of the game (I also played it on the PS1). But I don't seem to like a whole lot of the big hype big cult games (Earthbound, Lufia, Lunar...).

[Zoltor]

I must be the only person who likes Chrono Cross more than Trigger. But... I don't really care for Trigger at all. I'm playing the DS remake and this is my second playthru of the game (I also played it on the PS1). But I don't seem to like a whole lot of the big hype big cult games (Earthbound, Lufia, Lunar...).

Lunar, and Earthbound ok, but not liking Lufia is a down right sin, and could get you into trouble.

Lufia 1 was pretty good, but Lufia 2 just wow, awesome game to say the least(it also has the greatest bonus feature out of every other RPG ever made, the "Ancient Cave". As if that wasn't enough, there are unlockable "game modes", one of which not only bypasses the story restrictions allowing you to go dirrectly to the Ancient Cave, but also allows you to take any/all combinations of char into the Ancient Cave, including char you would normally not be able to, due to story restrictions. Basically it makes the entire game, the Ancient Cave).

PS. While you most surely aren't the only one who liked Chono Cross(infact I myself like is, I was just very dissapointed due to the false advertisments), but yea, I wouldn't be surprised if you were the only one who liked it better then Chrono Trigger.

[kupomogli]

I love Lufia 2 but I could see someone saying it's not that great of a game.

Not to sound rude, but Zoltor, you were complaining in the Final Fantasy 13 thread how the game is just too straight forward but you're praising Lufia 2 which has one of the exact same features. Along with that, I'll give reasons why one may not enjoy the game.

Outside of dungeons, the Lufia 2 world map consists of a town, usually some sort of dungeon, and then a cave leading to the next area. Not just a few areas, but literally every single area(except for the first where there are two branching ways) is laid out in the exact same way. Basically point A to point B(has nothing on FF10's terrible level design though, I'll tell you that.)

The battle system is your standard RPG fare. The IP system is nice but it's not anything groundbreaking. Boss battles usually consist of raising strength and beating away at them until you reduce their HP. Not really any sort of challenge.

If you take a look at the way it's designed, it's a fairly average game, but everything in the game was done extremely well. The game is perfectly balanced to where you can continue throughout the game without grinding, and still see enemies doing enough damage to you and can take enough to not make the game a walk in the park(so not get killed in one hit.) The music in the game is amazing. So while the game has your average design, it's clearly much better due to how well it was all done.

Also. The first Lufia? Sucks balls. It's another average game but it has one huge game breaking flaw. After each attack there is a couple second delay before the next enemy attacks or before it gives you the option of making your next turn. This drags out even the easiest battles. With quite a bit of polish, the first Lufia could be the better title.

[Aussie2B]

The battle system is your standard RPG fare. The IP system is nice but it's not anything groundbreaking.

I take issue with those comments. The IP system can play quite a significant role in how the game is played, and it's extremely cool how they gave each piece of equipment a different spell/attack (the ones that had them, at least). Final Fantasy VII's limit break system is often lauded as "innovative", yet it's basically the same thing except much simplified and created later, so what does that say about Lufia II? Plus you have other details like how spells can be used on a single foe or a whole group and the damage is adjusted accordingly, not to mention the whole capsule monster business and the process of evolving them. I'd say Lufia II has far more depth to its gameplay than the average traditional RPG of its time, and we haven't even begun to address the role of the complex puzzles and all the field actions.

[kupomogli]

This is all taken into consideration with the dungeons aside. The multiple puzzles in dungeons is a given to why the game itself is unique. Again, I like the game as well, just giving reasons why people may not like the second game.

[j_factor]

Where was I when everyone said FF7's limit breaks were "innovative"? Strictly speaking they were novel, but they weren't that big of a deal.

[Icarus Moonsight]

Customers set prices, and as a generality, RPG fans will pay what others won't. When you get a good or unique game that has a wide appeal, that's when prices start getting into the "stupid" range for non-fanaticals.

It's not a phenomena only attributed to the RPG genre either. Look at shmups! I would buy Silvergun over Suikoden 2, if the asking prices were the same. An RPG centered person (that didn't already have either) would most likely flip on that same situation.

Some shooters are dirt cheap too, like some RPGs. If I got loose copies of Phalanx and Wizardry V for $5 each (very doable, as I did it already) I consider that a gravy-of-a-day. FFVII goes for outrageous amounts, but I really am fine without it. Thanks to it being the popular one, I can score a CIB FF IX for $12-17 quite easily enough. Would I buy FFVII for the same amout? To trade/sell, yes. But if that were equal to the going rate, I'd pass.

Isn't the operation of price neat like that? Helps put stuff where it's wanted.

[Zoltor]

I take issue with those comments. The IP system can play quite a significant role in how the game is played, and it's extremely cool how they gave each piece of equipment a different spell/attack (the ones that had them, at least). Final Fantasy VII's limit break system is often lauded as "innovative", yet it's basically the same thing except much simplified and created later, so what does that say about Lufia II? Plus you have other details like how spells can be used on a single foe or a whole group and the damage is adjusted accordingly, not to mention the whole capsule monster business and the process of evolving them. I'd say Lufia II has far more depth to its gameplay than the average traditional RPG of its time, and we haven't even begun to address the role of the complex puzzles and all the field actions.


I'd second that, infact I would call the IP one of, if not the best system added to a game, to encourage strategizing, and believe me, the IP abilities, and what is used when, is a big deal.

Yea I love the Capsule monster system(although the monster taming system in Lufia Ruin of Lore is crazy good, It's a full blown monster taming system, in a pure RPG. As far as I know, that's the only pure RPG ever made, that did it full scale).

Then there's the puzzles in the game, that puts Lufia even further apart from other RPGs.

Nothing about Lufia II, says typical RPG(lol not even, random batle or not, because it uses both system, random battles on the world map, and not random inside of dungeons. Who ever thought of that, is a fucking god. I am basically always against non random battles in pure RPGs, but somehow they found the perfect way to implement it). Such a mix of systems are u7nbelieveable, as they are polar opposites, but for some reason, it actually works.

Lufia 2 was(technically all the other Lufia games as well, but at a much lower extent) not only innovative, it was developed by visionaries.

It's sad though, as far as I can tell, the only RPGs they have made, is the Lufia Series(yes folks, that is not only sad, but downright sick, that a company who is well known for their arcade style games, can come in and make such a series their first bloody try).

To visionaries: There's a big differance between a game being straight foward(Dragon warrior 1,2, every Lufia game, FF 1, and exc), and a game being literally straight foward. The maps of FF 13 are basically a "single line".

In all the games I listed, while the actual places you go to on the world map are pretty staight foward, the exporation of the game in general is not. The dungeons are diverse to say the least, and the world map Isn't a single line, there is actual exploration in finding the path, to the next area(on top of that, alot of the world Isn't straight foward at all, It's as open as you can get, so needless to say, there's tons of exploration)

[j_factor]

It's sad though, as far as I can tell, the only RPGs they have made, is the Lufia Series(yes folks, that is not only sad, but downright sick, that a company who is well known for their arcade style games, can come in and make such a series their first bloody try).

I'm not sure who the "they" is that you're referring to, but the same developer made the Rune Factory series, Record of Lodoss War (dc), CIMA (gba), and Shining Force Neo.

[Zoltor]

I'm not sure who the "they" is that you're referring to, but the same developer made the Rune Factory series, Record of Lodoss War (dc), CIMA (gba), and Shining Force Neo.

Hm ok, I could've sworn Taito Developed the Lufia games, evidently they just published it.

They so need to remake Record of Lodoss War(I'm a big fan of the anime, and would love to play the game), besides having such a game on the DC, is just wrong.

I haven't played most of their games(I played the Lufia gamea, and Shining Force: exa, but while EXA would be a really good game, not with a Shining Force title), I don't have a PSP, and a third of their games, are jp only.I suppose I should check out Rune Factory when I get a chance.

PS. However, strangly enough, Taito now owns the rights to Lufia(Taito Developed Lufia: Ruins of Lore), I guess after they publishished a bunch, they figured at this point, they may as well the buy the rights to it, no wonder I got fucking confused, these companies have been playing marketing tricks, they deffinitely know who to have puplish their games(NIS XSEED, TAITO, ATLUS, Sega, I think you get the point).

Is Shining Force Neo, like EXA or the original Shining Force games?

[Arkhan]

They so need to remake Record of Lodoss War(I'm a big fan of the anime, and would love to play the game), besides having such a game on the DC, is just wrong.

Having an action RPG based off a popular anime put on the Dreamcast (A Japanese (place where Lodoss War is from) game system) is wrong?

Why?

This may be one of the most nonsensical things I've ever heard all week.


as for Chrono Cross.... as far as PS1 RPGs go, it has some of the best music. The soundtrack is just killer. I don't know about everyone else, but I also thought the art style, and the very "tropic" oriented themes were pretty nice in comparison to other RPGs of the time that were more land-based than anything, and mostly your standard "trees, mountains, and castles OH MY!".


I also liked that there were more characters in it than every other Square game combined, and that the combat system had the neat element nonsense to let you fiddle with things how you wanted. It was the almost-followup to Materia that FFVIII forgot to have.

and then the fact that the characters themselves were pretty jawesome. Kid and Harle were just awesome.


It's got flaws sure, but really, what RPG doesn't have a flaw? Someone finds a flaw in every RPG. I can't think of a single RPG that is flawless.

[mobiusclimber]

Yeah I think it was mostly the characters and setting that endeared CT to me.

Lufia.. I think it was Lufia 2 that I played... didn't work for me mostly b/c of what other people liked: the puzzles. I'm just not smart enough for them. Finishing a dungeon/tower would take hours, literally, and if I needed to go do something else before that dungeon was finished, well, I was pretty much screwed. You can't leave the dungeon to save your game b/c all the puzzles reset! Yes, the ones you finished. Add to that the fact I never got too interested in the characters, setting or storyline and suffice to say I never finished the game.

Chrono Trigger I don't like because a) parts of it so horribly cliched they almost seem like a parody of other RPGs; b) there's Working Designs humor in there, and in the most inappropriate places; c) it alternates between being stupidly easy and stupidly difficult; d) there are places where figuring out what to do is really difficult and when you DO figure it out you realize it's just poor game design. Hiding behind trees in Death's Peak for one (since your characters have a tendency to slid around them if you're not dead center). Or finding Frog when he's hiding under a bush. I also don't like the non-random battles. Over half of them are unavoidable, so I don't even see the point in making them non-random, and then b/c they are fixed battles it's always the same enemies in the same spots.

Earthbound I just don't care for the wacky "humor" of it. I guess that's my biggest complaint.

[Aussie2B]

as for Chrono Cross.... as far as PS1 RPGs go, it has some of the best music. The soundtrack is just killer. I don't know about everyone else, but I also thought the art style, and the very "tropic" oriented themes were pretty nice in comparison to other RPGs of the time that were more land-based than anything, and mostly your standard "trees, mountains, and castles OH MY!".

I think most non-fans even give it that. It's pretty widely regarded that the Nobuteru Yuuki designs are lovely and wacky and the Yasunori Mitsuda soundtrack is gorgeous, but when it comes to actually playing the game, things sour. Few games prove it better that the greatest aesthetics in the world can't make a game fun.

[Arkhan]

what about the game play makes it sour?

[Zoltor]

To Arkhan: Simple, because when you are looking to play RPGs, the DC is the last stemen anyone would ever atribute, to RPGs.

Lets be real, there are like a total of like 2 RPGs on the system(for argument sake, lets say 4 or so RPGs in Japan, that would still make it the system, with the least amount of RPGs), so yea I think that was a bad move.

It's not like the PS1 didn't sell in Japan(infact I'm pretty sure it sold much better then the DC), which is where all the RPGs from that generation ended up on, so it would've made more sense to release it on the PS1.

[Canadian Psycho]

what about the game play makes it sour?
Yeah, I'd love to know why as well, as I remember Chrono Cross receiving all sort of praise upon release in the summer of 2000 (i.e. the "summer of RPG"). It garnered 10/10 across the board. Why is it (seemingly) despised now? Are extremist Chrono Trigger fans somehow behind this?

[mobiusclimber]

To Arkhan: Simple, because when you are looking to play RPGs, the DC is the last stemen anyone would ever atribute, to RPGs.

Lets be real, there are like a total of like 2 RPGs on the system(for argument sake, lets say 4 or so RPGs in Japan, that would still make it the system, with the least amount of RPGs), so yea I think that was a bad move.

It's not like the PS1 didn't sell in Japan(infact I'm pretty sure it sold much better then the DC), which is where all the RPGs from that generation ended up on, so it would've made more sense to release it on the PS1.

Here's a list of DC RPGs released in the US:

Skies of Arcadia
Grandia II
Evolution
Evolution II
Time Stalkers
EGG: Elemental Gimmick Gear
Silver
Phantasy Star Online
Shenmue (debatable)
Dragon Riders of Pern

Plus the aforementioned Record of Lodoss War. The DC only lasted, what, 2 years? In Japan the number is at least double that.

[Eb69]

What on earth happened to this thread? When I posted in it, it was an intelligent conversation about rising costs of older RPGs. Now it's "LOL Limt Breaks were innovative" and "ROFL random game sucks and other random game is better"

[nectarsis]

Many answers were given some time ago. Funny people complain about threads goin off topic on here, but it seems like it happens more often than not.

[Zoltor]

What on earth happened to this thread? When I posted in it, it was an intelligent conversation about rising costs of older RPGs. Now it's "LOL Limt Breaks were innovative" and "ROFL random game sucks and other random game is better"


Well someone shouldn't have said, Lufia 2 wasn't innovative/it was standard RPG fare(that has got to be one of the dumbest things I had heard someone say, and really, It's amazing he didn't get linched for that), I'm pretty sure that's what started the mess.

[Gentlegamer]

This reminds me, I picked up Final Fantasy Chronicles (Final Fantasy IV and Chrono Trigger) for PS a while back, but haven't played it yet. Are the load times really as bad as I've heard?

[Icarus Moonsight]

Here's a list of DC RPGs released in the US:

Skies of Arcadia
Grandia II
Evolution
Evolution II
Time Stalkers
EGG: Elemental Gimmick Gear
Silver
Phantasy Star Online
Shenmue (debatable)
Dragon Riders of Pern

Plus the aforementioned Record of Lodoss War. The DC only lasted, what, 2 years? In Japan the number is at least double that.

Double? Just the Eldorado Volumes double the US list. O_O

[Aussie2B]

Yeah, I'd love to know why as well, as I remember Chrono Cross receiving all sort of praise upon release in the summer of 2000 (i.e. the "summer of RPG"). It garnered 10/10 across the board. Why is it (seemingly) despised now? Are extremist Chrono Trigger fans somehow behind this?

It was divisive right from the beginning. I wouldn't be surprised if all the major publications were praising it heavily given how hyped up it was. I mean, they did the same with all of the Final Fantasy games, and we know how divisive Final Fantasy VIII is. But when you went to the players, it was obvious from the very beginning that plenty of people weren't happy with the game. I bought it myself at launch, expecting great things, and as much as I was trying to convince myself that it was awesome, I had to eventually accept that I wasn't enjoying it beyond the visuals and audio (and, actually, the experience of playing the game soured my experience of those; it took a couple years of distancing myself from the memory of playing the game itself to realize just how much I loved the art and music).

I don't think it's worth going into why the players are divisive because everybody has their own reasons. In some cases, it is as simple as it not living up to the original in the eyes of Chrono Trigger fans because it's just too different and lacking in features the original was known for (like combined techniques). But I'd say it's got problems on its own. A convoluted plot, stupid "accents" that make reading dialogue annoying, countless characters with barely any development, little uniqueness among characters' abilities, low difficulty, a level up system that makes just about everything but boss battles pointless, and so on.

[kupomogli]

This reminds me, I picked up Final Fantasy Chronicles (Final Fantasy IV and Chrono Trigger) for PS a while back, but haven't played it yet. Are the load times really as bad as I've heard?

Chrono Trigger has bad load times, but Final Fantasy 4 has load times just as fast as the SNES release.


I also don't like the non-random battles. Over half of them are unavoidable, so I don't even see the point in making them non-random, and then b/c they are fixed battles it's always the same enemies in the same spots.

I didn't like this either. People praise the ability to dodge battles, but it's only early in the game you can actually dodge battles. Most areas in the game there is no possible way to get past the battles.

Similar to Chrono Trigger, Crisis Core Final Fantasy 7 has the exact same flaw, except on Crisis Core you can actually repeatedly get in battles at the exact same spot without switching screens as well.

-

Anyways. To get back on topic. I looked up some games I own on Ebay for the SNES.

The oldschool RPG market is skewed. Popular well known games that have no rarity what so ever sell more as complete mint condition copies than rare even somewhat unknown games.

Ogre Battle, while not super rare, is a somewhat rare(uncommon) game and sells less nowdays than a complete copy of Final Fantasy 4 or 6(don't forget the amount of rereleases and remakes these two games have had.) Lufia 2 is about as rare as Ogre Battle and goes for some insane prices when it's complete and it's easier getting a complete copy as there are no charts that come with it. Then there's Tecmo's Secret of the Stars which is very cheap even when it's found complete(another uncommon game.) Ys 3 is one that looks like people are trying to gouge the consumer because of the series where most complete ones are extremely high priced, others can be found as low as $15-20, even complete. Ys 3 is somewhat common/uncommon.

Now while you probably won't find Ogre Battle or Lufia 2 that much less than what you find them on Ebay, games like FF4 and FF6 can actually be found complete for cheaper if you give it enough time.

*edit*

Looked up Secret of Evermore. It's a common game and while some people try to price gouge, you can find some on Ebay for less than $30 complete. This game is an amazing game and definitely worth it though. So while this common game goes for cheap, it's overall better than the game it copied, Secret of Mana(opinion,) which goes for some very high prices when complete and it's not really rare either.

[Gentlegamer]

Chrono Trigger has bad load times, but Final Fantasy 4 has load times just as fast as the SNES release.I wonder why the difference?

[Aussie2B]

Lufia 2 is about as rare as Ogre Battle and goes for some insane prices when it's complete and it's easier getting a complete copy as there are no charts that come with it.

I'm too lazy to dig it out and confirm, but I'm pretty sure Lufia II did come with at least one map/chart thing.

[Poofta!]

Having an action RPG based off a popular anime put on the Dreamcast (A Japanese (place where Lodoss War is from) game system) is wrong?

Why?

This may be one of the most nonsensical things I've ever heard all week.



because the DC is a failure. and to be honest, all fanboyism aside, by far the weakest of the hardcore gaming consoles to come in the last two generations, and the worst mainstream console to come in the 2 generations preceding that. (yeah, i went there)

almost all of DC's best games have to been remade/ported to other consoles where (gasp) a large audience can actually enjoy them. it is a shame that Lodoss war was not one of them.

In fact, Other than Power Stone, i cant think of any GOOD dc games, games worth that belong in every gamer's library, that havent been ported to a console that isnt a flop of epic proportions.

[j_factor]

because the DC is a failure. and to be honest, all fanboyism aside, by far the weakest of the hardcore gaming consoles to come in the last two generations, and the worst mainstream console to come in the 2 generations preceding that. (yeah, i went there)

almost all of DC's best games have to been remade/ported to other consoles where (gasp) a large audience can actually enjoy them. it is a shame that Lodoss war was not one of them.

In fact, Other than Power Stone, i cant think of any GOOD dc games, games worth that belong in every gamer's library, that havent been ported to a console that isnt a flop of epic proportions.

A lot of those ports weren't good, though. The PS2 version of Grandia II was atrocious. In most cases, the Dreamcast version is superior. Skies of Arcadia and PSO are better outside of Dreamcast, but they're the exception, rather than the rule. And there are still worthwhile games that weren't ported, like Jet Grind Radio.

And it's not exactly consistent to complain that Dreamcast games were ported to other consoles, and then also complain that Game X was not ported to another console.