Is an Atari Jaguar system worth keeping?

[csgx1]

Well, I picked up a Atari Jaguar cart system and one controller without any games, for dirt cheap. I never really got into most Atari systems and I don't plan on collecting games for this system but I couldn't pass up buying it since it was cheap.

Are there any enjoyable cartridge games worth buying for the Jaguar that are cheap?

Or should I forget about buying any games for it and just sell the system?

[chrisbid]

if you are an atari fan, then it is worth keeping and collecting

if you are mild atari fan or not a fan, then sell it. they go for a nice chunk of change these days

[megasdkirby]

I really like the Atari Jaguar and I hope on getting a replacement console in the future.

It's a great console, IMO. It has it's duds, but it also has some fantastic games.

[Leo_A]

I rather like it. There are a limited number of titles worth owning, so even ones that tend to go for more then your typical used game (Like Aliens vs. Predator) still don't add up in the end to be too large of an investment.

This is my collection and I've really enjoyed each title besides Cybermorph.

Alien vs. Predator
Cannon Fodder
Cybermorph
Doom
Iron Soldier
Iron Soldier 2
Power Drive Rally
Protector: Special Edition
Raiden
Rayman
Skyhammer
Super Burnout
Tempest 2000
Wolfenstein 3D

However, I'd suggest staying away from the CD attachement. Battlemorph is an excellent game, Hover Strike: Unconquered Lands is decent, and Iron Solder II is a good game and far cheaper as a cd then a cartridge. But there's little else besides junk and ports that have been done better elsewhere (Like Myst, Dragon's Lair, and Space Ace). So it's not worth adding a fairly pricey and unreliable cd attachment to the system in my opinion.

[retroman]

i love my jag....fun system to collect for...get the jag cd for the hell of it. Dont get rid of it, and start getting some games for it.

[Emperor Megas]

Honestly, my opinion is if you have to ask, then it's probably not worth keeping. I'm a old school gamer, but I'm not a pack rat. When in doubt, I believe in trimming the fat. I cant think of many things I've regretting letting go of, and it sounds like you're barely on the fence.

I say give someone else who cares more a chance to own it.

[csgx1]

Thanks for the suggestions everyone. Im kind of leaning towards keeping it.

I do like the Atari Lynx so I could possibly have some interest in Jaguar games as well.

I'll have do some research on what games would interest me.

[josekortez]

I second Leo Ames. The Jag version of NBA Jam is also decent.

I got my Jag for cheap off Craigslist and I haven't seen another one since. I suggest at least trying a few of those games before selling the system off. Then, you won't have any "what if" questions or regrets.

[goatdan]

Are there any enjoyable cartridge games worth buying for the Jaguar that are cheap?

Or should I forget about buying any games for it and just sell the system?

I would suggest getting Tempest 2000 for it. You can still find it pretty cheap -- usually around $20 or so -- and to me it is by FAR the best game for the system. If you like it, you can explore some other games for the system, if you don't, it won't hurt your sale price of the system to have one of the best games with it and you'll be able to tell it works.

If Tempest in no way interests you -- you don't like Tempest, or you hate score chases or something, the other games that Leo named are good, but they came out on other platforms usually or are very expensive. There aren't many other great exclusives for it that are cheap that hold up better than games that have come since, but if you enjoy things like 2D scaling sprite racers or 2D fighters, there are some relatively unique things for it.

I love it -- I have every game for it.

[kedawa]

Is there any homebrew scene on the Jag, though?
That's one of the most appealing things about the Lynx IMO.

Also, Rayman is amazing.

[goatdan]

Is there any homebrew scene on the Jag, though?

Yup, I think it's much bigger than the Lynx one too. There have been a number of releases recently that way.

[josekortez]

Yup, I think it's much bigger than the Lynx one too. There have been a number of releases recently that way.

90% of those homebrew games require you to own a Jag CD. I don't think there have been many cartridge homebrew games to my knowledge.

[csgx1]

I've been looking into some of the Jaguar games that were recommended and they look quite interesting. Interesting enough for me to hold on to the system and invest in a game or two.

Tempest 2000 seems interesting and Iron Soldier looks pretty cool too.

Thanks for all the suggestions.

[Baloo]

Honestly, my opinion is if you have to ask, then it's probably not worth keeping. I'm a old school gamer, but I'm not a pack rat. When in doubt, I believe in trimming the fat. I cant think of many things I've regretting letting go of, and it sounds like you're barely on the fence.

I say give someone else who cares more a chance to own it.

I agree with Emperor Megas. IMO, the Jaguar is a pretty meh system. A lot of the games are simply terrible, and most of what's good on there is ported to other systems, namely Rayman, NBA Jam, Tempest 2000, Doom, Wolfenstein 3D, Raiden, they're all on other systems, and are done better on other systems to boot.

I'd sell it and take the nice chunk of cash.

[Leo_A]

I agree with Emperor Megas. IMO, the Jaguar is a pretty meh system. A lot of the games are simply terrible, and most of what's good on there is ported to other systems, namely Rayman, NBA Jam, Tempest 2000, Doom, Wolfenstein 3D, Raiden, they're all on other systems, and are done better on other systems to boot.

I'd sell it and take the nice chunk of cash.

Besides Raiden, I'd have to disagree.

Tempest 2000 was at it's best on the Jaguar and the PSOne and Saturn ports aren't as good. Myself and many others thought Rayman was better on the Jaguar then on the PSOne. I don't own it, but I've read about the Jaguar port being the best home port of NBA Jam. And until the Xbox/Xbox 360 generation when both games have been rereleased several times, I'm pretty sure the Jaguar ports of Doom and Wolfenstein 3D were considered the best contemporary console ports of both titles.

Raiden is the only one that I can say beyond a shadow of doubt has been done better elsewhere.

[goatdan]

Besides Raiden, I'd have to disagree.

Tempest 2000 was at it's best on the Jaguar and the PSOne and Saturn ports aren't as good.

I went into a pretty deep discussion about that a couple days ago on here I think. Tempest 2000 is to me the perfect update to a classic arcade game, and the best balanced game like it out there. Nothing in my opinion holds a candle to it. For me, it is about as perfect as any game can get -- and although the PS1 and Saturn ports are good games, they aren't great games.

[Emperor Megas]

I went into a pretty deep discussion about that a couple days ago on here I think. Tempest 2000 is to me the perfect update to a classic arcade game, and the best balanced game like it out there. Nothing in my opinion holds a candle to it. For me, it is about as perfect as any game can get -- and although the PS1 and Saturn ports are good games, they aren't great games.I own Tempest 2000 for Saturn, and it was one of my favorite games from that console generation. What's different about the Jaguar CD version, exactly?

[goatdan]

I own Tempest 2000 for Saturn, and it was one of my favorite games from that console generation. What's different about the Jaguar CD version, exactly?

It's on the regular Jaguar, but here was my post from the other day about the differences:


Tempest 2000 is probably my favorite game ever made, and the Jaguar version is heads and tails better than any other version I think. And I have played -- and beaten -- every other version of the game that exists since I like it so much. There was:

Tempest 2000 for the Jaguar, Sega Saturn and PC
Tempest X3 for the Playstation
Tempest 3000 for the Nuon, a sequel to the Jaguar game

Ignoring 3000 for a minute, as the other four came out basically together, the issue that Tempest 2000 not on the Jaguar has is that they messed with the balance. Instead of the spikes being able to be blown through once you get the higher powered shot, they remain very difficult to shoot through, basically much like the original game had them, which means that you have to sit in one spot to shoot through them, but the enemies move down at you.

Tempest X3 basically had the difficulty dialed back. Otherwise, I'd adore it, but the biggest issue is the electrical enemies (Pulsars, I believe) get to the end of the web and then act just like any other enemy -- slow. In Tempest 2000 for the Jaguar, the Pulsars were the thing that were both the most dangerous on the web -- as if they did their pulsing thing they could fry you at any moment with basically no warning -- and the most dangerous at the end of the web, as they would race around and you'd have to frantically jump to avoid them. Changing this basically made it so that they weren't as big of a threat, and it really dialed back the intensity that the original has.

Finally, and I think this is in all of the versions except 3000, but I might be wrong as it has been a while -- in the Jaguar version, when you get the AI droid, it goes off and starts shooting things for you that are coming down the web -- in fact, a way to score points if you're patient is to let the spike thing make spikes and then you just shoot them away, and you can't do this if the AI droid is there as it will instantly find and shoot it. On the other versions, the AI droid is basically just like extra shot power, as it hangs on you the entire way around, and won't drift off to take care of an area by itself.

Overall, the games are still good -- I've still managed to play and beat all of them, but the Jaguar version is perfectly balanced and, according to me at least, the most perfect retro update ever done, and simply put the best game ever. The others are all very good games, but they aren't that good. It's worth buying a rotary controller for in my opinion, and is one of the few games that I break out every couple years to beat again.

Finally, Tempest 3000 was the update that Jeff Minter who did the Jaguar version of Tempest 2000 did for the NUON DVD Players. Yup, I bought a NUON just to play this, and the gameplay is solid, but the effects are just a little too much -- whereas Tempest 2000 sometimes had words and power ups and explosions and crap interfere with your view, you never felt like it was cheap -- that was just stuff going on as you advanced in the game. I can never say that I have had a death in Tempest 2000 that I didn't feel was basically my own darn fault, which is the gold standard for me in a game. In Tempest 3000, I found that one in probably four of my deaths were due to a lack of ability to see what in the world was going on, so that alone drop it to my least favorite Tempest update position, and the only one that I haven't beaten. I hear it goes on forever actually, but I haven't even tried getting to level 99 on it.

Writing this makes me want to bust it out and try it again.

If you're collecting for the Jaguar - and I've had a full collection for over a decade now I think - the biggest reason to do it I think is Tempest 2000. The library isn't nearly as bad as people make it out to be, it just hasn't aged well as it was at that weird point where 3D was just starting and people didn't exactly know how to use it. Most of the 3D games, even if they were decent in their time (Cybermorph, I'm lookin' at you) look like garbage now. BattleMorph and Iron Soldier II are the few exceptions, and BattleSphere if you have the money for it. The 2D games I think for the most part do hold up well.

I don't remember seeing these mentioned, but I would suggest checking out Zoop and NBA Jam TE on the Jaguar too -- both of these are games that are multiplatform, but the Jaguar versions of both are far and away the best versions of these two games I believe. I also really enjoy or have enjoyed Zool 2, Missile Command 3D, Protector SE, Rayman, Power Drive Rally, FlipOut, Super Burnout, Breakout 2000, and Val D'Isre.

[bacteria]

Like any console system, there are good titles and bad ones. The Jaguar had mostly bad ones, although some titles are good and worth having. Wolfenstein 3D on the Jaguar is a better version of the PC one, which in itself is worth having the console for, in my view.

Problem is the titles that sucked, sucked hard.

[j_factor]

It's on the regular Jaguar, but here was my post from the other day about the differences:

You didn't talk at all about the Saturn version. It doesn't have the changes that the Playstation version has. I haven't extensively compared them, but to me it seemed the same as the Jaguar version, except with CD audio. Some Jag fans say the Saturn port has "thin sound" but they're full of it. The soundtrack is redbook and it's exactly the same as the CD soundtrack release. Hardcore fans of the game should still stick with the Jaguar version, because there's no option on Saturn for a rotary controller. But that's really the only downside, as far as I can tell.

[acem77]

I like the jag cart music better plus the over look.

[goatdan]

You didn't talk at all about the Saturn version. It doesn't have the changes that the Playstation version has. I haven't extensively compared them, but to me it seemed the same as the Jaguar version, except with CD audio. Some Jag fans say the Saturn port has "thin sound" but they're full of it. The soundtrack is redbook and it's exactly the same as the CD soundtrack release. Hardcore fans of the game should still stick with the Jaguar version, because there's no option on Saturn for a rotary controller. But that's really the only downside, as far as I can tell.

Unless if I'm recalling incorrectly, and I don't think I am, all three of the main issues that I listed -- Pulsars, bad AI droid and harder spikes -- are present in ALL versions of Tempest 2000 not for the Jaguar.

I am positive the spike issue is there, and that one thing really changes the game in a negative way to me.

The music is a personal taste thing. It's the exact same as the audio CD, but I have always liked the cart music better personally than the audio CD.

[josekortez]

Ruiner Pinball is pretty darned fun too. I'm surprised I forgot that one.

[Ze_ro]

Wolfenstein 3D on the Jaguar is a better version of the PC one, which in itself is worth having the console for, in my view.
I've been saying this for years, and I'm glad to finally hear someone that agrees with me.

It's better than the 3DO version too.

--Zero

[Emperor Megas]

I'll definitely have to get Tempest 2000 for the Jaguar at some point. Tempest 2000 or the Saturn is one of my all time favorite games. I didn't realize that there was any difference between the two versions, besides the fact that I didn't have to use a gimped Jaguar controller on the Saturn or PSX version (which automatically made them better in my mind).

[zektor]

Worth it alone for Tempest 2k. This is by far the best version of the game (the Saturn version a close second) and will keep you busy for a long time to come. That is not to say that there aren't any other good games mind you, but if you want to get started enjoying the system I would certainly recommend that this game be your first.

[goatdan]

I'll definitely have to get Tempest 2000 for the Jaguar at some point. Tempest 2000 or the Saturn is one of my all time favorite games. I didn't realize that there was any difference between the two versions, besides the fact that I didn't have to use a gimped Jaguar controller on the Saturn or PSX version (which automatically made them better in my mind).

The main thing that I feel is a difference is this (and this is making me want to bust out my Saturn and look at the exact differences again) -- on the Jaguar version when you are leaving a web, if you are shooting and there are spikes at the end, you'll go through them. Meaning that if you're paying half attention to what you're doing, you won't die.

On the Saturn version (And any version with the harder spikes), if you aren't pre-planning which tube to go down and shooting there specifically, you'll hit the end and die. Since you're also supposed to be flying around the web shooting stuff, this just feels extremely cheap to me.

You can still screw up in the Jaguar version by switching tubes as you leave.

Finally, although I actually really like the Jaguar controller, if you don't like them one thing that the Jaguar has is people make rotary controllers for it that are amazing. We carry one in the GOAT Store that is currently out of stock, but it really makes the game play amazingly. It's usually $70, and we should have them back in stock soon... a very high price for a game, but in my opinion well worth it.

Other people sell them too sometimes on eBay and whatnot, and often they are actually more expensive than that.

[Emperor Megas]

I'll definitely grab the Jaguar version at some point. As for avoiding spikes at the end of the stage, it's the only way I ever knew to play Tempest, so it never really bothered me. I think I rather enjoyed the challenge of it; though I've never experience the alternative to know for sure, but it seems that making the spikes easier to avoid would make the game a lot less difficult than I've come to expect, which might bother me in the end (since I've been more or less 'conditioned' by the Saturn version). The difference in the AI droid sound pretty interesting too (and more helpful, strategically), however, the way that it behaves on the Saturn version seems more like what I'd expect something called an AI droid to behave (autonomously).

Overall, it sounds like the Jaguar version is easier, but I'll hold off judgment until I actually play it.

As for the rotary controller, it seems like an interesting novelty, but I don't think that I'd really enjoy using one enough to justify the cost. I'm a Tempest fan from way back when the original was in arcades, and while the classic dial holds lots of memories for me I think I actually prefer playing Tempest with a D-pad. But I won't rule the rotary controller out.

[WCP]

Here is my take on the Jaguar:


1. Is it one of the worst video game systems of all time?

Absolutely.

2. Is it the absolute worst?

No. (32X takes that crown)

3. Does most of the game library suck?

Yep.

4. Are there a few good games though?

Yep


The bottom line with the Jag, is that it does have it's own unique flavor, and it is worth experiencing first hand. One way to look at it, is that you can mess around with the thing for awhile, try a few of the games, and then later on, if you feel like it, sell the whole thing in a bundle. If you got a loose Jag system, then you basically need to get your hands on the controller, and you can use a Genesis 1 power supply with it. You'll also need some kind of video cable. The S-Video cable is pretty crazy expensive, and it's kinda hard to even find the composite one.

As for the games, the way I like to experience a new console, is to try some of the very first games that came with it during launch. I highly suggest giving Cybermorph a try. Cybermorph gets very little respect, but I think it's because when somebody plays that game, they are expecting a game like Starfox for the SNES, and it's a completely different kind of game. Cybermorph isn't really a combat space game like Starfox. It's more of a puzzle game than anything. Basically you are collecting these pods that are scattered about on these different alien worlds, and you have to find all the pods to advance to the next world. I think the flat shaded polygons actually look beautiful in this game. Of course, my view might be skewed by the fact that I'm playing it on a RGB monitor, so it looks hundreds of times better than a RF switch or even composite.

There is something about the natural look of flat shaded polygons. I think that the 3D games with flat shaded polygons actually will age better than the textured mapped ones. Games like Virtua Racing and Virtua Fighter will always have a timeless appeal about them, because of their simple, yet elegant flat shaded look. Cybermorph has that look. (at least in RGB it does) The key factor with Cybermorph, is to realize that 90 percent of the game is puzzle and exploration, with the other 10 percent being combat. Also, the combat in the game isn't the type of thing where you want to be looking for combat. It's much better to try to avoid combat, and to get away from any of the guys that shoot at you and try to ram into you. You're best off getting far away from them, and only engaging them when you have no other options. I also love the sensation of speed in the game, and how smooth everything flows. You can have your ship traveling at breakneak speeds, or just barely chugging along at 5 mph. When you have it at the fastest speed, it's amazing how fast the scenery is flying by you, but it's also extremely easy to crash into something and wreck your ship, so it's best not to use that speed too often.

Some people will say that Cybermorph has aged horribly because of the ridiculous draw distance (or lack thereof). Yeah, the draw distance is absolutely horrible, but if you fly low to the ground, basically hovering very close to the planets surface, then the pop-in is greatly reduced. I still think Cybermorph is easily one of the 5 best Jaguar exclusives. There are only so many Jaguar games that aren't available on any other system, and Cybermorph is one of them.

I was lucky enough to get a Jaguar back in November of 1993, and I'm pretty sure I only had 3 total games. Cybermorph was the pack-in, and I think I bought Raiden and Trevor McFur in the Crescent Galaxy. I think the Jag version of Raiden is decent. It has amazing color (on an RGB monitor). Of course, that is a game thats available on a ton of other systems, so it really isn't a mandatory purchase. Trevor McFur is famous for being one of the worst games of all time. Strangely enough, I think it's halfway decent, and should at least be tried. The backgrounds in Trevor McFur are pretty freaking gorgeous if you ask me. No background music, just sound effects. (Cybermorph doesn't have any background music, and neither does Doom, kinda strange now that I think about it). Trevor McFurr is a side-scrolling shmup like Gradius, but it features rendered graphics, and super colorful backdrops. The problem with Trevor McFur is that the difficulty is just too damn hard. Not in a good way. Alot of cheap deaths. You have to play perfectly to get far in the game. Still, I remember playing it the day it came out and being totally amazed by the graphics. It still looks good today (imho). Cybermorph is super cheap, so you should be able to get that for like 3 or 4 bucks. Trevor McFurr is pretty cheap too. Raiden is a bit more pricey.

I think the next Jag game I got was Wolfenstein. I actually like the 3DO port the best of all the Wolfenstein's I've tried, but the Jag version is definitely solid. After Wolfenstein, I think I got Doom. Doom on the Jag is pretty fantastic. Unlike the 32X version, which runs in a tiny windowed screen, Doom is full screen on the Jag. There isn't any background music, but I actually didn't mind that, because I enjoyed the sound effects. Sometimes the background music in other Doom ports can kinda mess with the atmosphere a bit, and take you out of the experience. The Jag version of Doom was my first real experience with Doom (couldn't afford a PC at the time), and I think it was a top-notch experience. A great port (if you can live without the background music). The PS1 version of Doom is very good, using advanced lighting techniques for some of the game, but I still love the Jag version.

[j_factor]

Here is my take on the Jaguar:


1. Is it one of the worst video game systems of all time?

Absolutely.

2. Is it the absolute worst?

No. (32X takes that crown)

Seriously?

[Garry Silljo]

I highly suggest giving Cybermorph a try. Of course, my view might be skewed by the fact that I'm playing it on a RGB monitor, so it looks hundreds of times better than a RF switch or even composite. Cybermorph has that look. (at least in RGB it does). I still think Cybermorph is easily one of the 5 best Jaguar exclusives.

I think the Jag version of Raiden is decent. It has amazing color (on an RGB monitor).

Who is this again?

[Emperor Megas]

Cybermorph is garbage. You'd have to have worked on that game to think otherwise, and it would still be a matter of denial rather than insight.

[allyourblood]

Seriously?

That's exactly what I was thinking when I read that.

[WCP]

Cybermorph is garbage. You'd have to have worked on that game to think otherwise, and it would still be a matter of denial rather than insight.


Well, I stand by my take. I think only Dave Halverson and myself seem to like the game, but oh well, that's how I feel. Still, I think most of the Cybermorph hate is the fact that everybody was expecting it to be a 64-bit version of Starfox. It's nothing like Starfox, and thus tons of people thought it was utter shite. They started playing the game, hated the combat, hated the green bald chick, and that was that. For those that really hate the game, I wonder how much time they actually spent playing it? I'm guessing no more than a half hour. Cybermorph is one of those "slow burn" games. It takes a bit of time to grow on you. If you complete the first set of 9 planets, and you still think it's total shite, then I have no problem with your opinion, but I think most of the haters probably played it for 15 minutes, thought it was a total piece of crap, and never touched it again.

[goatdan]

Cybermorph is garbage. You'd have to have worked on that game to think otherwise, and it would still be a matter of denial rather than insight.

To be fair to the game, it isn't horrible. The problem with it is really simple though -- it was an early 3D title at the absolute birth of 3D gaming. It was a go-anywhere type game. And unlike 2D, where you can still find charm in the way that sprites in a game like Pitfall or Super Mario Bros look, no one reminisces for crappy looking 3D games.

I think that Cybermorph is really a forerunner for a lot of the open world titles that exist today, it's just the gameplay has been done better by nearly everything else that came since. But, at the time, there wasn't *anything* like Cybermorph ever seen before, so at the least it is a notable title.

Having said that, I can't imagine actually playing it today.

[j_factor]

Well, I stand by my take. I think only Dave Halverson and myself seem to like the game, but oh well, that's how I feel. Still, I think most of the Cybermorph hate is the fact that everybody was expecting it to be a 64-bit version of Starfox. It's nothing like Starfox, and thus tons of people thought it was utter shite. They started playing the game, hated the combat, hated the green bald chick, and that was that. For those that really hate the game, I wonder how much time they actually spent playing it? I'm guessing no more than a half hour. Cybermorph is one of those "slow burn" games. It takes a bit of time to grow on you. If you complete the first set of 9 planets, and you still think it's total shite, then I have no problem with your opinion, but I think most of the haters probably played it for 15 minutes, thought it was a total piece of crap, and never touched it again.

I thought Cybermorph was pretty good. I guess that puts you, me, and Halverson in a minority of three.

So how about you come on over to my place, and pick up Halverson on your way. It'll be just the three of us, with an Atari Jaguar and lots and lots of alcohol. We'll pop in Cybermorph, drink ourselves shit-faced, and just see where the night takes us.

[allyourblood]

Gross?

[WCP]

To be fair to the game, it isn't horrible. The problem with it is really simple though -- it was an early 3D title at the absolute birth of 3D gaming. It was a go-anywhere type game. And unlike 2D, where you can still find charm in the way that sprites in a game like Pitfall or Super Mario Bros look, no one reminisces for crappy looking 3D games.

I think that Cybermorph is really a forerunner for a lot of the open world titles that exist today, it's just the gameplay has been done better by nearly everything else that came since. But, at the time, there wasn't *anything* like Cybermorph ever seen before, so at the least it is a notable title.

Having said that, I can't imagine actually playing it today.+


You know, that's another thing I forgot to mention in my defense of Cybermorph. It is one of the first "go anywhere" games that I can remember. Sure, the actual worlds aren't that huge, and you go North for so many seconds at top speed, and you'll eventually lap the planet, but still, it was truly a "go anywhere" game.

As for it being a crappy early 3D game, well, I still think that the games with flat shaded polygons (like the original Virtua Fighter that launched with the Saturn) hold up better over time than the earliest 3D games with texture mapping. Early texture mapping can tend to really age an early 3D game.

[goatdan]

As for it being a crappy early 3D game, well, I still think that the games with flat shaded polygons (like the original Virtua Fighter that launched with the Saturn) hold up better over time than the earliest 3D games with texture mapping. Early texture mapping can tend to really age an early 3D game.

I agree completely that games with flat shaded polygons generally do hold up better over time than texture mapped 3D games -- however, Cybermorph's problems today isn't with the graphics themselves but the draw distance of those graphics.

I agree completely again that it was a totally revolutionary gameplay mechanic at the time, and yes although the worlds are small I am relatively certain it was the first console 3D go-anywhere game which means that indirectly, it was the forerunner to games like Grand Theft Auto 3 and so on. And for that, it is notable.

It is just that games like Grand Theft Auto and even BattleMorph sure made Cybermorph redundant quickly. Virtua Fighter and the like hold up so well because it wasn't like the draw distance was made so you couldn't see the other character half the time, which is why they hold up well, and Cybermorph doesn't. Having said all that, the Jaguar was really built to be a hyper powered 2D console, but it launched at a time that 3D was all the rage. Had it just gone for 2D titles, I think it would have been remembered a lot better than it was. The Saturn for instance did 3D, but the games that are the best remembered on it tend to be just as much 2D stuff.

Ah well.

[Baloo]

That's exactly what I was thinking when I read that.

Yeah, I'll third that. I'll definitely take the 32x over the Jaguar any day really.

[WCP]

however, Cybermorph's problems today isn't with the graphics themselves but the draw distance of those graphics.



Yeah, I can't argue the draw distance. The draw distance is horrible. It wasn't so bad in November 1993, cause it was so brand new, and doing something that had never been done before, but playing it now, the draw distance just seems totally unacceptable.


Having said all of that.... You can still make the game fun by flying lower to the ground. The more you decrease your altitude and speed, the better the draw distance gets. Playing a 3D "go anywhere" game that's almost 17 years old, you kinda have to accommodate your play style to help with the draw distance issue. Just stay pretty low to the planets surface, don't go super, super fast, and everything is very playable.. imo.

[eatenbygrues]

Yeah, I'll third that. I'll definitely take the 32x over the Jaguar any day really.

I think the four Yu Suzuki games on the 32X (Afterburner, Space Harrier, Virtua Fighter, and Virtua Racing) probably put the 32x's library above the Jag's on their quality alone.

The Jag does have the superior port of doom, but that really isn't saying a whole lot. :P

32x vs Jaguar is such a sad little console war. It's like the cripple fight on south park.

[Leo_A]

Whatever technical merits Cybermorph has, it doesn't matter when the game itself wasn't fun in 1993 and isn't fun in 2010.

It's only worth picking up for curousities sake due to it's cheap price from being a pack in game and being the most common Jaguar title as a result. It's the only reason it's even in my collection list, it came with the system.

I've had more fun with the Jaguar library then the 32X library. I pretty much own everything I want for both. And not only do I have more Jaguar titles, it has several more AAA titles like Tempest 2000 then the 32X has.

Beyond Virtua Racing Deluxe and AfterBurner, I wouldn't even place one of my 32X games as beyond a B or so in score (Don't like Space Harrier or Virtua Fighting so they're not in my collection). And I wouldn't even rate any of my Jaguar collection I've listed earlier in this thread below that score (Besides Cybermorph).

[retro junkie]

Well, I stand by my take. I think only Dave Halverson and myself seem to like the game, but oh well, that's how I feel. Still, I think most of the Cybermorph hate is the fact that everybody was expecting it to be a 64-bit version of Starfox. It's nothing like Starfox, and thus tons of people thought it was utter shite. They started playing the game, hated the combat, hated the green bald chick, and that was that. For those that really hate the game, I wonder how much time they actually spent playing it? I'm guessing no more than a half hour. Cybermorph is one of those "slow burn" games. It takes a bit of time to grow on you. If you complete the first set of 9 planets, and you still think it's total shite, then I have no problem with your opinion, but I think most of the haters probably played it for 15 minutes, thought it was a total piece of crap, and never touched it again.

I think Cybermorph was a very good game for the time period. There really wasn't anything like it in its day, that I can remember. A simple go anywhere little shooter. Very Basic gameplay. Not anything to show off 64-bits of power. I have had a lot of fun out of it. I really don't think that time has been good to it. Only those from that time period would understand what I am talking about, when I say it was something special at that point in time. And I agree that it is something that you would have to get into to enjoy. I still enjoy playing it.

So including me, I guess it is four people that like it so far?

[goatdan]

Whatever technical merits Cybermorph has, it doesn't matter when the game itself wasn't fun in 1993 and isn't fun in 2010.

Out of curiosity, did you actually play the game in 1993 when it came out? It was pretty mind-blowing back then, and I think it was really a LOT of fun. It was just eclipsed rather quickly by other stuff.

To put it into context, what early 3D games excluding the Virtua series does anyone still play regularly? 3D has not aged nearly as well as 2D games have, and it is much rarer to find 3D games that people really have nostalgia for.

[j_factor]

Beyond Virtua Racing Deluxe and AfterBurner, I wouldn't even place one of my 32X games as beyond a B or so in score (Don't like Space Harrier or Virtua Fighting so they're not in my collection).

Not even BlackThorne or Shadow Squadron?


Out of curiosity, did you actually play the game in 1993 when it came out? It was pretty mind-blowing back then, and I think it was really a LOT of fun. It was just eclipsed rather quickly by other stuff.

To put it into context, what early 3D games excluding the Virtua series does anyone still play regularly? 3D has not aged nearly as well as 2D games have, and it is much rarer to find 3D games that people really have nostalgia for.

To be fair, there aren't that many 3D games from 1993. But I think a lot of people still like the original Star Fox. I also still think Ultima Underworld is a great game. And Star Wars Arcade (the arcade version was 1993).

[Leo_A]

Out of curiosity, did you actually play the game in 1993 when it came out? It was pretty mind-blowing back then, and I think it was really a LOT of fun. It was just eclipsed rather quickly by other stuff.

To put it into context, what early 3D games excluding the Virtua series does anyone still play regularly? 3D has not aged nearly as well as 2D games have, and it is much rarer to find 3D games that people really have nostalgia for.

Nope, I've only played it in the past ten years. But I have a fondness for early 3d. Heck, I still regularly play and enjoy things like F-22 Interceptor on the Genesis, games most people wouldn't be able to stand today. So I think I'd still be able to appreciate it if it was a decent game. This thread certainly has me wanting to give it a second go though to see if there was something I missed the first time around. I've only played it perhaps 3 hours in total and wasn't enjoying myself at all.


Not even BlackThorne or Shadow Squadron?


Never played BlackThorne, never really paid any attention to it. Is it worth seeking out to give it a try?

I love Shadow Squadron and it's certainly right near the top as far as my opinion of 32X titles go and is a major reason I keep a 32X around. But I'd still hesitate to consider it as A material and it's certainly not a A+ title like Tempest 2000.

[Emperor Megas]

I think Cybermorph was a very good game for the time period. There really wasn't anything like it in its day, that I can remember. Did you ever play Stellar-Fire for SEGA CD, or Stellar 7: Draxton's Revenge for 3DO? I didn't play them much, but I remember them being a lot like Cybermorph.


Whatever technical merits Cybermorph has, it doesn't matter when the game itself wasn't fun in 1993 and isn't fun in 2010.Yeah, that's pretty much my take as well.


Beyond Virtua Racing Deluxe and AfterBurner, I wouldn't even place one of my 32X games as beyond a B or so in score (Don't like Space Harrier or Virtua Fighting so they're not in my collection).Space Harrier could probably be all time favorite game; definitely in my top 5 anyway. I bought the 32X just for an arcade quality port.


Out of curiosity, did you actually play the game in 1993 when it came out? It was pretty mind-blowing back then, and I think it was really a LOT of fun. It was just eclipsed rather quickly by other stuff.I played it in 95, I think, and it didn't blow my mind at all, except or how chronically unfun I thought it was, but it's just not my sort of game.


To put it into context, what early 3D games excluding the Virtua series does anyone still play regularly? 3D has not aged nearly as well as 2D games have, and it is much rarer to find 3D games that people really have nostalgia for.That's because a lot of them were garbage, like Cybermorph.

[Ze_ro]

Whatever technical merits Cybermorph has, it doesn't matter when the game itself wasn't fun in 1993 and isn't fun in 2010.
I had lots of fun with it back in 1993, and played it all the way through in one sitting on many occasions. I still think it's a good game, though Battlemorph completely eclipses it.

--Zero

[tom]

I think that Cybermorph is really a forerunner for a lot of the open world titles that exist today, it's just the gameplay has been done better by nearly everything else that came since. But, at the time, there wasn't *anything* like Cybermorph ever seen before, so at the least it is a notable title.


Hunter (1991 Activision)
http://www.mobygames.com/game/hunter/screenshots

Alone in the Dark (1992)

The Eidolon (1985)

[goatdan]

Hunter (1991 Activision)
http://www.mobygames.com/game/hunter/screenshots

Alone in the Dark (1992)

The Eidolon (1985)

None of those were go-anywhere games like Cybermorph, and with the exception of Alone in the Dark which came out for the 3DO in 1994, none of them were on a console. That's what I think it was groundbreaking for -- I can come up with more than a dozen other 3D titles before it, but none that allowed go anywhere gameplay like Cybermorph did.

[T2KFreeker]

None of those were go-anywhere games like Cybermorph, and with the exception of Alone in the Dark which came out for the 3DO in 1994, none of them were on a console. That's what I think it was groundbreaking for -- I can come up with more than a dozen other 3D titles before it, but none that allowed go anywhere gameplay like Cybermorph did.

Are we all getting into the Cybermorph debate again? :lol: Goatdan is right on the money. Cybermorph allows you to go anywhere you want to go, making it extremely unique for it's time. Also, the further you get into the game, the better the graphics get all. The level designs also get quite insane. The game really is a gem as most people just see the screen shots or hear someone blabbing about how bad it is and they never touch it and agree with everyone about how bad it is. Kind of like the Jaguar controller also.

[tom]

I can go anywhere in Hunter

more:
Mercenary (1985)
Rescue on Fractalus (1984, Atari 5200, if you're hung up about 'consoles only')

Don't get me wrong, I love Cybermorph, and Battlemorph, played them to death way back, just showing Cybermorph was not the first '3D go-anywhere' by a long shot

[T2KFreeker]

Did you ever play Stellar-Fire for SEGA CD, or Stellar 7: Draxton's Revenge for 3DO? I didn't play them much, but I remember them being a lot like Cybermorph.



Actually, the games may seem similar to you, but they really are not. Way more terrain in Cybermorph as most of the levels are flat in those two games. Plus factor in that the enemies aren't cheap at all in Cybermorph and that adds something more to the game as well. To be fair also, Cybermorph also did use Goraud shading on some items on the screen as well as the backgrounds, giving it a much more fleshed out look. Like I said, you need to get further along in the game.

[goatdan]

I can go anywhere in Hunter

more:
Mercenary (1985)
Rescue on Fractalus (1984, Atari 5200, if you're hung up about 'consoles only')

Don't get me wrong, I love Cybermorph, and Battlemorph, played them to death way back, just showing Cybermorph was not the first '3D go-anywhere' by a long shot

Rescue on Fractalus wasn't 3D polygonal. I'm saying that Cybermorph is notable because:

Cybermorph is the first console game that was 3D polygonal and allowed the player to go anywhere in the world when they wanted to, and the player could essentially get the goals in each level in the order they wanted to.

StarFox is on rails. Rescue on Fractalus was 2D. BattleWheels was 2D. BallBlazer was contained to a small location. Virtua Racing and Virtua Fighter were released after it.

I'm not arguing that it stands up today as a good game, because it doesn't. But at the time that it came out, it really was a pretty mind-blowing concept. The only game that I can think of that may be similar in nature to it was Steel Talons on the Lynx, although I have never figured out the control to actually know if it is go-anywhere or not. It was unique for the time.

[tom]

Does polygonal need to be a priority for 3D? I don't think so.
RoF is fully fractal 3D (I've flown around the mountain), and Mercenary is full vector 3D (in Mercenary you can even fly around the whole planet (in any direction), fly up limitless or until you reach the sky city, walk into buildings, walk around buildings, etc..), both count, imho.

[le geek]

The game that blew me away in this manner was Starglider II

1) granted on an Amiga and
2) I could never exactly figure out what i was supposed to do...

I do think that Cybermorph was pretty neat when it came out...

[kevinski]

You'll also need some kind of video cable. The S-Video cable is pretty crazy expensive, and it's kinda hard to even find the composite one.

If you're going with the official cables, then yes, they're very expensive. Thing is, you can get unofficial cables that're of much higher quality here:

http://morethangames.a8maestro.com/prodgame/advert-g4.htm

The official Atari-branded ones feel (and are) very cheap in comparison.

Anyway, I, personally, consider Jaguar to be an excellent console. Sure, the build quality is somewhat questionable, as the plastic on the console feels flimsy (and they couldn't take the time to make the connectors on the back of the console not look completely horrible). Still, you'll find some excellent conversions of certain games on Jaguar, as well as some nice exclusives.

[goatdan]

Does polygonal need to be a priority for 3D? I don't think so.
RoF is fully fractal 3D (I've flown around the mountain), and Mercenary is full vector 3D (in Mercenary you can even fly around the whole planet (in any direction), fly up limitless or until you reach the sky city, walk into buildings, walk around buildings, etc..), both count, imho.

If polygonal isn't a priority, then there is an argument for Night Driver, as it was a first person "3D" type thing too. RoF unless I'm mistaken used 2D sprites for the enemies, and created the environment in a rudimentary that really never became a major force in game design. Cybermorph used polygons, which are the same thing that is used on consoles today for displaying things.

I'd agree with Mercenary if it was on consoles. It isn't. Computers have traditionally always had the power differential to do more advanced things, but console games have generally greatly outsold computer games.

My only point is that Cybermorph really was a milestone for a console title. Again, I'm not arguing that it was the first -- I was personally playing Space Station Oblivion on the PC about five years before it -- but it was a console milestone. But, since it was a 3D one, it is a pretty forgettable one.

[Emperor Megas]

So again, wasn't Stellar-Fire a lot like Cybermorph (free roaming polygonal)? I'm pretty sure that they came out around the same time.

[j_factor]

Never played BlackThorne, never really paid any attention to it. Is it worth seeking out to give it a try?

It plays a lot like Flashback, except the controls are more like Rolling Thunder 2. If you like those two games, it is very much worth seeking out. Note that it's also on SNES, but it's better on 32x.


So again, wasn't Stellar-Fire a lot like Cybermorph (free roaming polygonal)? I'm pretty sure that they came out around the same time.

Stellar Fire has flat floors, whereas Cybermorph has fully 3D environments.

But at this point it seems like we're really making a lot of niggling qualifiers to "prove" how "mind-blowing" it was because there was "nothing else like it" at the time. It's the first "go-anywhere" game in 3D that was polygonal and had fully 3D environments and was on a console. It also lacks texture mapping, has a short draw distance and a poor framerate, and the environments aren't really that large. It's a little something, but it's definitely a product of its time, not something that seemed amazingly advanced. Also note that it wasn't even available in the entire country in 1993; the Jaguar launched in November of '93 in New York and Northern California only. It came out in the rest of the country in early '94 (not sure exactly when). I'm pretty sure Total Eclipse came out for 3DO in early '94 (although Wikipedia says '93), and I think Total Eclipse betters Cybermorph. Also if you look at PC games, Magic Carpet came out in early-mid '94, and that is one game that really was mind-blowing at the time IMO.

[kevinski]

Emperor Megas, I'm a Valis fan, myself. Just curious, though, as to why your avatar is of Glames as opposed to Megas. :P


Stellar Fire has flat floors, whereas Cybermorph has fully 3D environments.

But at this point it seems like we're really making a lot of niggling qualifiers to "prove" how "mind-blowing" it was because there was "nothing else like it" at the time. It's the first "go-anywhere" game in 3D that was polygonal and had fully 3D environments and was on a console. It also lacks texture mapping, has a short draw distance and a poor framerate, and the environments aren't really that large. It's a little something, but it's definitely a product of its time, not something that seemed amazingly advanced. Also note that it wasn't even available in the entire country in 1993; the Jaguar launched in November of '93 in New York and Northern California only. It came out in the rest of the country in early '94 (not sure exactly when). I'm pretty sure Total Eclipse came out for 3DO in early '94 (although Wikipedia says '93), and I think Total Eclipse betters Cybermorph. Also if you look at PC games, Magic Carpet came out in early-mid '94, and that is one game that really was mind-blowing at the time IMO.

The shading in Cybermorph was pretty advanced for its time, as well. I've never played Cybermorph, personally, but - based on game play vids that I've seen - it doesn't appear to have aged very well from a game play perspect. While I realize that it isn't nearly as highly regarded, I prefer I-War, myself.

[goatdan]

Stellar Fire has flat floors, whereas Cybermorph has fully 3D environments.

Stellar Fire would fit the bill, except it has mountains and stuff in the background that is sprite based and you can't 'visit' them. It isn't the flat floors, it is that like BattleZone you can see something in the distance and not get to it.


But at this point it seems like we're really making a lot of niggling qualifiers to "prove" how "mind-blowing" it was because there was "nothing else like it" at the time. It's the first "go-anywhere" game in 3D that was polygonal and had fully 3D environments and was on a console. It also lacks texture mapping, has a short draw distance and a poor framerate, and the environments aren't really that large. It's a little something, but it's definitely a product of its time, not something that seemed amazingly advanced.

Again, I think this is all true in looking back at it now, when you can pop in 5000 games since then that have done everything that Cybermorph did better than it. But all those things that you mentioned above -- lack of texture mapping, short draw distance, poor framerate and small environments -- all were results of the technical limitations of the time.

It's the folly of 3D gaming. I'm not surprised the truly historical 3D games don't get tons of attention for a variety of reasons. The truth is for the most part, the games that defined the beginning of the 3D era were games on failed consoles (the Jaguar and 3DO) and due to technical limitations of the system and figuring out how to handle 3D on a console hold up like crap today. Very few of the early 3D titles are worth picking up today I think -- of the games from back then, the Virtua series, Tempest 2000 and Missile Command 3D are the only ones that I revisit, and I collect longbox PS1 games (most of which I have never even played) and have all the Jaguar games. I keep my 3DO for two games only (Incredible Machine and Lost Eden) and had a Saturn but didn't find much on it fun in 3D.

I very much think the history of 3D gaming and 3D game milestones will be greatly skewed in the future because practically nothing holds up today. I guess it's just an interesting thing that basically there is going to be practically no history of some of the biggest moments that created genres that are what we will probably have as staples forever. The 1993-1996ish era created games that defined how we game in many ways, but those predecessors to modern games tend to be looked at as dinosaurs. The reason that I brought up Cybermorph being unique in the first place is because it is one of the few games you can actually trace a lineage too. Can anyone name the console games that first did the following:

- First texture mapping
- First bump mapping
- First 3D rendered human character
- First 3D rendered human character to have moving facial features

I can't name any of those. Then again, I guess it isn't just common with that. For 2D, who knows:

- First use of parallax
- First use of scrolling screens
- First use of a map
- First use of backtracking gameplay

I have some hunches with some of that, but for the most part the games that are the best recorded for historical value are arcade machines or computers. It's amazing that the arcade video world has almost completely died and computer gaming is a pretty small market, yet it seems that a lot of the historically significant games for consoles are defined less by technical achievements and instead almost fully by sales figures.

Is that the correct way to do it? I don't know -- but it's interesting. That's all.

And now, I have beaten the Cybermorph horse into glue. I think it was historically significant for being a real introduction into a new console gameplay style. Feel free to agree with that or disagree with that all you want. If you don't have any 3D consoles past the Jaguar, you might even find it fun. If you have anything else though, I wouldn't bother to play it for more than a few minutes.

Avoid the ground!

[diskoboy]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: The Jaguar version of Rayman blows the PSX version out of the water.

[eatenbygrues]

One nice thing I will say about the jaguar is that compared to the other mainstream consoles it's library has a pretty distinct.. flavor. The jaguar is the closest thing we have to a mainstream Euro console in the US (did the cd32 ever get released here?).

Take Leo Ames list for instance, about ten of those games were developed by European developers which makes the jaguar library feel a lot closer to something like the Amiga than say the 3DO or even Atari's older platforms.

I think a lot of this has to do with the Lynx. In a lot of ways the Lynx was a hand held amiga and a lot of the big Jaguar developers had previously done Lynx development.

Now thats not my particular cup of tea but it does make the Jaguar library feel a lot more unique than say the 3DO or CDi.

[Steve W]

While I realize that it isn't nearly as highly regarded, I prefer I-War, myself.

I've always loved I-War. It's trying to be so Tron-like. Cybermorph reminds me of Tron too, in the environments that the Solar Sailer was flying over. Both were great games, but I-War isn't remembered too well these days. That's such a shame. It deserves better. My only problem with the game was that it would freeze up every once in a while, sometimes even at the high-res intro screen. That really got annoying.

[j_factor]

Stellar Fire would fit the bill, except it has mountains and stuff in the background that is sprite based and you can't 'visit' them. It isn't the flat floors, it is that like BattleZone you can see something in the distance and not get to it.

Well I wouldn't say Cybermorph is actually better in this regard, since you can't see anything in the background at all. :) Stellar Fire just replaces Cybermorph's solid color with a bitmap to be less boring to look at.


Again, I think this is all true in looking back at it now, when you can pop in 5000 games since then that have done everything that Cybermorph did better than it. But all those things that you mentioned above -- lack of texture mapping, short draw distance, poor framerate and small environments -- all were results of the technical limitations of the time.

Well, yeah. But that's my point -- it's a product of its time, not something that was really ahead of its time. And I did mention a couple games from near the same time that I thought were better technically.


It's the folly of 3D gaming. I'm not surprised the truly historical 3D games don't get tons of attention for a variety of reasons. The truth is for the most part, the games that defined the beginning of the 3D era were games on failed consoles (the Jaguar and 3DO) and due to technical limitations of the system and figuring out how to handle 3D on a console hold up like crap today. Very few of the early 3D titles are worth picking up today I think -- of the games from back then, the Virtua series, Tempest 2000 and Missile Command 3D are the only ones that I revisit, and I collect longbox PS1 games (most of which I have never even played) and have all the Jaguar games. I keep my 3DO for two games only (Incredible Machine and Lost Eden) and had a Saturn but didn't find much on it fun in 3D.

I really don't agree with that. To me, truly "early" 3D means games like Hard Drivin' and LHX Attack Chopper, and I do not feel like any of those are worth playing. I'm repeating myself, but there are absolutely 3D games from 1993-1996 that I still greatly enjoy. Jumping Flash may not be much to look at, but I still enjoy it for what it is. I don't even think my opinion of it has lowered at all. NiGHTS is as fun as ever and has immense replay value, and I even think it still looks good. *shrug*


I very much think the history of 3D gaming and 3D game milestones will be greatly skewed in the future because practically nothing holds up today. I guess it's just an interesting thing that basically there is going to be practically no history of some of the biggest moments that created genres that are what we will probably have as staples forever. The 1993-1996ish era created games that defined how we game in many ways, but those predecessors to modern games tend to be looked at as dinosaurs. The reason that I brought up Cybermorph being unique in the first place is because it is one of the few games you can actually trace a lineage too. Can anyone name the console games that first did the following:

- First texture mapping
- First bump mapping
- First 3D rendered human character
- First 3D rendered human character to have moving facial features

I don't know about putting "console" in there, I think the first game to do X regardless of platform is more significant than the first console game to do it.

I'm pretty sure the first console game with texture mapping was Crash 'N Burn for 3DO (being a 3DO launch game). The first game (regardless of platform) with texture mapping is a little-known PC game called Car & Driver.

Bump mapping is difficult to verify. A lot of games used a small amount of bump mapping and you can barely tell. The first console to support bump mapping is the Dreamcast, so probably an early Dreamcast game. Maybe Godzilla Generations? Naomi is also the first arcade board to support bump mapping, so it's possible that the first game with bump mapping was House of the Dead 2. Not sure about PC though -- a little searching revealed DirectX 6.0 as the first version to support bump mapping, and that came out in August 1998, but it's hard to tell what the earliest games to actually use it were (especially considering some games may have added bump mapping with a patch), and I don't know what month House of the Dead 2 was released.

The first 3D rendered human characters were in the music video for "Money for Nothing" by Dire Straits. :) I would guess that the first game to have 3D human characters, assuming you mean using filled polygons rendered in real-time with animation and in gameplay, was Hunter for Atari ST and Amiga. But I don't know for sure, and I have no idea about the first console game. Virtua Fighter had some limited facial movements, so I'm sure that's the first (both in general and in a console game).

I don't know why I bothered with all this. Your point is taken.


I can't name any of those. Then again, I guess it isn't just common with that. For 2D, who knows:

- First use of parallax
- First use of scrolling screens
- First use of a map
- First use of backtracking gameplay

First use of parallax is pretty famous: Moon Patrol. I would imagine the first console game to use it would be the Atari 5200 port. Don't know the others, but some Atari nut should know the first game with scrolling, and backtracking gameplay is probably open to interpretation.

[mastamuzz]

Something that everyone is forgetting is that at that time the system was never supported by any mayor 3rd party and the library for a launch rooster was balanced, great machine IMO like the DC.

If we are counting crappy games I think the Playstation is the one with most crappy games ever even at launch Criticom, MK3 control and loading, tiny ridge racer (I love the game but is crappy) those at launch and trough the years gee tons of crap, so judging by the small list of games for the jag being all of them 1st gen they were pretty good actually.

I mean all this not by today standard but back in the day when this games first saw the sunlight and the never ending darkness they face today!

If you are a collector and you don't have a sentimental attachment to whatever you are collecting I frankly don't see the point on going trough the search and hunt, I can't see myself picking up a pong machine simply cause I don't have any memories with those my gaming life started with the A2600 and I don't like them because of the sour memories I got with those!

so as someone said earlier if you are in doubt sell it to someone who really likes the machine, it is mindless collecting something you never had contact with and it will be trash in the back of your head forever!

[Emperor Megas]

Emperor Megas, I'm a Valis fan, myself. Just curious, though, as to why your avatar is of Glames as opposed to Megas. :PWould you believe I didn't notice when I uploaded it? I probably would had the wrong avatar up for ever if I didn't read that. :O/

[goatdan]

Well I wouldn't say Cybermorph is actually better in this regard, since you can't see anything in the background at all. :) Stellar Fire just replaces Cybermorph's solid color with a bitmap to be less boring to look at.

I wasn't arguing which was more fun, just a statement of the difference...


Well, yeah. But that's my point -- it's a product of its time, not something that was really ahead of its time. And I did mention a couple games from near the same time that I thought were better technically.

I never said that I thought it was ahead of its time, I said it was notable for what it did. That's all.


I don't know about putting "console" in there, I think the first game to do X regardless of platform is more significant than the first console game to do it.

The reason that I think that console is so important is because it was really the first time that 3D became mass market. I mean, I am fully aware of the arcade situation and what happened there (and it is very detailed), and computers were almost always the leader in making this sort of thing happen, but when consoles start doing it the feature has generally really made mass market. That's why I think it's important.


The first 3D rendered human characters were in the music video for "Money for Nothing" by Dire Straits. :) I would guess that the first game to have 3D human characters, assuming you mean using filled polygons rendered in real-time with animation and in gameplay, was Hunter for Atari ST and Amiga. But I don't know for sure, and I have no idea about the first console game. Virtua Fighter had some limited facial movements, so I'm sure that's the first (both in general and in a console game).

Heh, actually I'm reading a big history on Pixar which basically talks through all of the history of computer animation and when exactly they animated what and were able to do what -- it's a perfect note of how another relatively fresh industry has a ton of history already documented on it, while gaming for whatever reason doesn't maintain that same history about itself.

It's also what got me thinking about this whole historical thing as well right before I started posting in here, as tons of the stuff that is used in gaming today was actually developed by Pixar for other reasons, and then eventually adapted into gaming using the same theories. It's just interesting that the groundwork stuff is so solidly there, but the implementation after that point is sort of a giant mystery.


First use of parallax is pretty famous: Moon Patrol. I would imagine the first console game to use it would be the Atari 5200 port. Don't know the others, but some Atari nut should know the first game with scrolling, and backtracking gameplay is probably open to interpretation.

Although I had heard that about Moon Patrol, what about the starfield versus landscape on Defender? Or, I have a Galaxian that has stars scrolling in the background at different rates. Do they count? (And I'm not asking you specifically, just why this hasn't been asked before if you will.)

It's just interesting to me. I am also a pinball enthusiast / collector, and I can name which pinball machine was created when and what new features it included. It's amazing to me that we don't have a similar historical thing with video games. And there are lots of reasons for that I guess, but I won't solve it in an Atari Jaguar thread ;)

[retro junkie]

Hmmm... well after all this talk about Cybermorph, I had to pull it out again this weekend. Being a retro gamer, graphics don't bother me. But the gameplay is still fun for something that is just a hunt, shoot, and pick up pods, very simple gaming here. Reminds me of a lot of retro games from the 80's that had a very simple gameplay and goals. A nice little time waster. And any mountain area that you could see, you could go up to, fly around and sometimes over. You are limited by how high you can fly. I am thinking that originally Cybermorph started out as a tech demo that they completed and developed into what they included as a packin for the system.

Probably the conflict here is, we look at the Nintendo 64 and then we look at the Jaguar, thinking 64-bits, wondering where's the beef? I'm not sure if any of the games really taxed or revealed the true power of the 64-bit environment created in the Jag. The people at Atari just did not know what to do with it. And it did not stay in the market long enough for developers to come to grips with the hardware.

Still with Cybermorph, a Star War type music would have been good in the background and increase with intensity as you engaged fighters. That would have changed the game atmosphere a whole lot. Better AI from the fighters would have given it an edge also.

[goatdan]

Probably the conflict here is, we look at the Nintendo 64 and then we look at the Jaguar, thinking 64-bits, wondering where's the beef? I'm not sure if any of the games really taxed or revealed the true power of the 64-bit environment created in the Jag. The people at Atari just did not know what to do with it. And it did not stay in the market long enough for developers to come to grips with the hardware.

It's because bits really have nothing to do with overall power, just what sized number you can pass. The Intellivision is a 16 bit system, the Xbox is a 32 bit system. The Jaguar can pass a 64 bit sequence making it technically a 64 bit console, but it was made to do 2D and minimal 3D stuff, and didn't have RAM to really take advantage of either thing. The N64 was designed to have 3D titles.

[retro junkie]

It's because bits really have nothing to do with overall power, just what sized number you can pass. The Intellivision is a 16 bit system, the Xbox is a 32 bit system. The Jaguar can pass a 64 bit sequence making it technically a 64 bit console, but it was made to do 2D and minimal 3D stuff, and didn't have RAM to really take advantage of either thing. The N64 was designed to have 3D titles.

I agree with what you are saying there about the bits. But people believe the hype and have certain expectations, especially in the area of game consoles. A lot depends on how much the developer learns how to push the hardware. I think the real strength of the Jag was in 2D sprite handling. Super Burnout really shines in that area.

[klausien]

+1 for Cybermorph. Sleeper. Totally grows on you. Not the best game ever, but very playable and pretty cool for a pack-in. I could probably think of 100 or more games that are worse.

[allyourblood]

I agree with what you are saying there about the bits. But people believe the hype and have certain expectations, especially in the area of game consoles. A lot depends on how much the developer learns how to push the hardware. I think the real strength of the Jag was in 2D sprite handling. Super Burnout really shines in that area.

And the Jaguar had horrible 3rd-party support. If Atari had been more patient and released a handful of mind-blowing 2D titles, they might've actually gained a little footing.