Rarity Update: Ultimate Muscle for the Gamecube

[Charlie]

Cross out Ultimate Muscle on the list of potential future rarities... the title isn't a limited release. The fact is, if it's hard to find it's because the title sold way past the expectations. It looks like more copies have been getting sent out, so if you've wanted it, expect to see it soon.

The suprise showing could be attributed to the popularity of the Anime show.

[buttasuperb]

Nothing for PS2, GC, or Xbox is rare. Limited release or not.

BTW, how is this Ultimate Muscle game? Looks kinda cool.

[Charlie]

"Nothing for PS2, GC, or Xbox is rare."

Wrong... It is confirmed that under 5,000 copies of NCAA Basketball 2K3 for the Gamecube made it out. Cubivore was around 10,000... Steel Battaliion for the X-Box was pretty limited. They might not be as sought after now, but once upon a time neither was Chase the Chuckwagon.

How is the game you say? Not so bad actually. I think the wrestlers have fairly limited movesets, but otherwise I dig it. And Dik Dik Van Dik is possibly the most homo-erotic name in the history of video gaming.

[zmeston]

How is the game you say? Not so bad actually. I think the wrestlers have fairly limited movesets, but otherwise I dig it. And Dik Dik Van Dik is possibly the most homo-erotic name in the history of video gaming.

So it's a game for fans of Tube Slider and MGS3: The Snake Eater?

-- Z.

[nesman85]

i kinda agree with butta. even a small amount like 5000 is still a lot. of course some will be less common than others but still not "rare" when compared to the "rare" games for some other systems. there will definitely be no 9s or 10s for any of these systems except maybe some in-store kiosk stuff.

[digitpress Jim]

I agree with Charlie,these games are rare.Try calling any game store and see if you can find "Cubivore" or "Ncaa College Basketball 2k3" for Gamecube,you probably wont even find one used,I know I dident find any.Also most of the games from the Classic/Neo classic systems (Atari 2600,Nes, Etc.) got rare and most sought after later in time.Try to find "Ncaa College Basketball 2k3"for Gamecube or "Steel Battalion" 10 years from now and see how much luck you have.Plus when you think about it 5,000 copies of "Ncaa College Basketball"released in the USA is not a whole lot,especially since there are so many sports fans.On top of that "Ncaa College Basketball 2k3"for Gamecube has been discontinued and Sega will no longer make the 2k series for the Nintendo Gamecube anymore.I hope im not sounding like a jerk,this is just how I feel about it. :D :D :D

[Mayhem]

//glad he found two copies of Cubivore (one for him, one for QoF) when he was over in the US last month.

We didn't see it anywhere else though apart from that one shop...

[Gunstarhero]

I agree with Butta on this as well. Frankly I'm sick of all this talk about any PS2, XBOX and GC games being rare. What the hell are you talking about? A sports franchise, 5000 copies or not, will never be rare as once 2k4 comes out, 2k3 becomes worth a wopping $1 for the rest of eternity. Soon we'll be seeing posts about the new Rare Madden 2004.

[Nature Boy]

I agree with Butta on this as well. Frankly I'm sick of all this talk about any PS2, XBOX and GC games being rare. What the hell are you talking about? A sports franchise, 5000 copies or not, will never be rare as once 2k4 comes out, 2k3 becomes worth a wopping $1 for the rest of eternity. Soon we'll be seeing posts about the new Rare Madden 2004.

What difference does a 2K4 release make on the print run of a 2K3 game? 5000 copies is 5000 copies, regardless of how many sequels are released.

Plus, I'd like to point out that there is no 1:1 relationship between price and rarity. Supply *and* demand - not just supply - determine pricing. The reason old sports games sell for less is that demand for them drops massively after the season is over.

If you're sick of the PS2/GC/Xbox rarity talk then don't read the posts.

Thanks for the update Charlie.

[buttasuperb]

There might be only 5000 copies of the game out there, but I can find one within a couple days. Which means it's not rare. Yet.

There were only 500 copies of the US version of Metal Slug 3 for the Neo Geo. Yet, I can buy one right now. Is it rare just because the number produced is low? I think not.

[jonjandran]

There might be only 5000 copies of the game out there, but I can find one within a couple days. Which means it's not rare. Yet.

There were only 500 copies of the US version of Metal Slug 3 for the Neo Geo. Yet, I can buy one right now. Is it rare just because the number produced is low? I think not.

You can find a copy of any game anytime if you have enough money x_x I think a better subject might be " What the H$!! makes a game rare ? "

[Nature Boy]

There were only 500 copies of the US version of Metal Slug 3 for the Neo Geo. Yet, I can buy one right now. Is it rare just because the number produced is low? I think not.

I think so.

SNES "Link to the Past" is a dirt common game I'm sure we'd agree. And yet finding it for sale around here can be difficult. Nobody parts with it. If they do, it's still priced well above what you'd expect a Common to go for - because the demand is there.

Plus how much does MS3 go for? I'd never be suprised that a high ticket item is still around - they take longer to sell, rare or not.

[buttasuperb]

You can find a copy of any game anytime if you have enough money

I disagree. Certain games are gonna take you a bit to track down, even if you have the money.

Nature Boy, MS3 still sells for 235 new. I think there's around 40-50 copies still left. True, it's more expensive, so it takes longer to sell. But right now, the game's not rare, even with only 500 copies produced. Once it sells out, I can almost guarantee the price to jump.

But rarity to me isn't about how many numbers were produced, or how much it's worth, but instead how hard a game is to find. And I'm not talking about just looking in your own town to find a game, we know that A Link to the Past can be easily found on the net.

[Nature Boy]

Nature Boy, MS3 still sells for 235 new. I think there's around 40-50 copies still left. True, it's more expensive, so it takes longer to sell. But right now, the game's not rare, even with only 500 copies produced. Once it sells out, I can almost guarantee the price to jump.

But rarity to me isn't about how many numbers were produced, or how much it's worth, but instead how hard a game is to find. And I'm not talking about just looking in your own town to find a game, we know that A Link to the Past can be easily found on the net.

So would you consider MS3 Rare once it sells out? Will it not be incredibly hard to find then? Why are you guaranteeing a price jump? Seems to me the demand is far less than the supply if it's still for sale new. Assuming the demand doesn't increase, why would the price? Why would demand increase after it's sold out? Because it's no longer available? Isn't that rarity?

[zmeston]

I think a better subject might be " What the H$!! makes a game rare ? "

Well, I think the Digital Press Collector's Guide has the best definition of rarity I've ever seen with its ten-point scale. DP defines R10 as:

"Not only is this the centerpiece of a collection, but a ten also means you could be holding a one-of-a-kind (certainly one of no more than a dozen or so) there -- kind of like owning a 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle, or Issue #1 of DC's Action Comics."

Any game with a production run of 5,000 copies or more, a criteria that virtually every PS1, PS2, Xbox, and GCN game falls under, will NEVER be an R10, and probably not even an R9. (DP's definition of R8, "items you'll never find by chance," applies to a few North American PS1 games.)

There are a bunch of R10 Atari 2600 carts because they were produced in incredibly limited quantities by incredibly tiny companies that were wiped out in the Crash. (At least that's what I deduce from reading the Guide and soaking up the country wisdom of this forum.)

You're always going to see Steel Battalion and Ultimate Muscle and Rez on eBay, at least until all existing copies find their way into the libraries of hardcore collectors with no intention of parting with them, but that seems like it would take many, many years to happen.

-- Z.

[buttasuperb]

So would you consider MS3 Rare once it sells out? Will it not be incredibly hard to find then? Why are you guaranteeing a price jump? Seems to me the demand is far less than the supply if it's still for sale new. Assuming the demand doesn't increase, why would the price? Why would demand increase after it's sold out? Because it's no longer available? Isn't that rarity?

It would be bit rarer and tougher to find once it sells out, since you can't just go to neostore.com and place an order for a new one, instead you'll have to ask around to find the game. I can't really guarantee a price jump, but when the US version of Rage of the Dragons sold out, quite a few people were looking for it, and the price jumped up a little bit. But when the MVS kit dropped to 69.00, and now to 59, the price of the homecart seemed to go back to normal.

[Gunstarhero]

What difference does a 2K4 release make on the print run of a 2K3 game? 5000 copies is 5000 copies, regardless of how many sequels are released.


Considering it's a sports franchise, once the new edition comes out, demand for 2k3 will dwindle to zilch. Do you really need a market study to prove that? 2k3 will be easy to obtain always.


Plus, I'd like to point out that there is no 1:1 relationship between price and rarity. Supply *and* demand - not just supply - determine pricing. The reason old sports games sell for less is that demand for them drops massively after the season is over.

Thanks for agreeing with me :) So after admitting that old sports games sell for less after the season is over, don't you agree that it's quite absurd to come here and hype the rarity of a sports franchise game? Knowing full well that it will be worthless in less than a year?


If you're sick of the PS2/GC/Xbox rarity talk then don't read the posts.


The whole idea of PS2/Xbox/GC rarity is absurd in the first place, when we can go to the store and buy the games retail. This stuff shouldn't be discussed as rare the same way as classic games are considered rare. What a way to reduce the meaning of Rare. Is this Ebay? No, come on, if someone is saying everything is rare then it's time to speak up. I mean, what the hell is the return on investment anyway? If I buy NCAA 2k3 for $50 now, in 20 years it's worth $1, don't you think its misleading and dishonest to tout these modern games as anything but common? So what that it has a print run of 5000 copies. Once 2k4 comes out, you'll be able to find it anytime you want on ebay for cheap. You guys are fooling yourselves if you think there will be some kind of future profit for these games if you buy them right now at their highest cost. How many Atari 2600 titles are turning a 200% profit to their original owners? Not very many, and of the ones that do, I'm sure that there are less than 5000 of each one in circulation.

Another reason its absurd to hype the rarity of these modern games is that they are on recordable medium. With mod chips enabling the use of 'backupz', that makes it even easier to obtain original titles. Not that this is happening with the 128 bit systems(it may be I haven't kept up), but it will soon enough. Heck the News here at DP headlined that the GC had been hacked already, its just a matter of time.

[jonjandran]

Another reason its absurd to hype the rarity of these modern games is that they are on recordable medium. With mod chips enabling the use of 'backupz', that makes it even easier to obtain original titles. Not that this is happening with the 128 bit systems(it may be I haven't kept up), but it will soon enough. Heck the News here at DP headlined that the GC had been hacked already, its just a matter of time.

Flawed reasoning. Roms for rare cart games are extremely easy to get and that doesn't affect their value. A rom or copy means nothing to a true collector. We want good labels boxes and paperwork.

[jonjandran]

You can find a copy of any game anytime if you have enough money

I disagree. Certain games are gonna take you a bit to track down, even if you have the money.

Nature Boy, MS3 still sells for 235 new. I think there's around 40-50 copies still left. True, it's more expensive, so it takes longer to sell. But right now, the game's not rare, even with only 500 copies produced. Once it sells out, I can almost guarantee the price to jump.

But rarity to me isn't about how many numbers were produced, or how much it's worth, but instead how hard a game is to find. And I'm not talking about just looking in your own town to find a game, we know that A Link to the Past can be easily found on the net.

And I disagree . Put a post on here about wanting a rare game and offer 2-3 times what it has sold for in the past and you'll have it in a couple of days. Guranteed. The person knows he will find it again in a couple of months.

[buttasuperb]

And I disagree . Put a post on here about wanting a rare game and offer 2-3 times what it has sold for in the past and you'll have it in a couple of days. Guranteed. The person knows he will find it again in a couple of months.

Why would I offer 2-3 times what a game is worth? :hmm:

[jonjandran]

I Wrote --
You can find a copy of any game anytime if you have enough money

You Wrote -- I disagree. Certain games are gonna take you a bit to track down, even if you have the money.
quote]

I Wrote -- And I disagree . Put a post on here about wanting a rare game and offer 2-3 times what it has sold for in the past and you'll have it in a couple of days. Guranteed. The person knows he will find it again in a
couple of months

You Wrote --- Why would I offer 2-3 times what a game is worth?

Now I'm Writing
It really would be easier if you did read the post an/or remember them. You said certain games are gonna take you a bit to track down even if you had the money. That's what I disagreed with and now you ask why would i offer 2-3 times what a game is worth? We were talking hypothetical , Most people wouldn't offer 2-3 times unless they really wanted the game.
Anyway all of this really doesn't matter. I just would like to know what makes a game "RARE" and I think that has been addressed pretty well.

[Nature Boy]

I think my main point has been that I'm not equating rarity with desirability. Maybe that's against the thinking of most others but that's the way I see it. I guess I'm too much a pure numbers guy.

And, to be honest, I *never* see college sports games here in Canada. The market is quite small so few copies are ever brought up here. They are rare to come by (and the prices usually reflect that unfortunately, old or not).


Considering it's a sports franchise, once the new edition comes out, demand for 2k3 will dwindle to zilch. Do you really need a market study to prove that? 2k3 will be easy to obtain always.

I don't necessarily agree with that. With only 5000 copies in NA (and for the sake of argument let's say there are 50 states and 10 provinces to worry about), that's only 83ish games per state/province.

Like I said, I'm too much a numbers guy :)


Thanks for agreeing with me :) So after admitting that old sports games sell for less after the season is over, don't you agree that it's quite absurd to come here and hype the rarity of a sports franchise game? Knowing full well that it will be worthless in less than a year?

Actually, I think it's absurd to equate rarity with value. Just because an item is rare doesn't make it priceless. Demand is what makes it priceless.


The whole idea of PS2/Xbox/GC rarity is absurd in the first place, when we can go to the store and buy the games retail. This stuff shouldn't be discussed as rare the same way as classic games are considered rare.

I don't think anybody is/was suggesting that. Of course current stuff isn't going to be as rare as older stuff. But Charlie's post started "Cross it off your potential rarity list". I see nothing wrong with discussing and pondering what will be the most rare games of this generation 20 years from now.


What a way to reduce the meaning of Rare. Is this Ebay? No, come on, if someone is saying everything is rare then it's time to speak up. I mean, what the hell is the return on investment anyway?.

I'm gonna stop you right here. I couldn't care *less* about ROI. That's not why I'm interested in discussing which of today's games I might have problems finding tomorrow. I want to be sure, if a game is going to be tough to find, that I pick it up while I see it if I'm intersted in playing it. For example, the mentioning of Fatal Frame in another thread pretty much ensures I'll be getting it while I know I still can. Not because I think it'll increase in $$, but because I want to *play* it.

[Trellisaze]

And, to be honest, I *never* see college sports games here in Canada. The market is quite small so few copies are ever brought up here. They are rare to come by (and the prices usually reflect that unfortunately, old or not).


The rationalisaton I've heard is that the cost of producing the French manuals doesn't give them enough of a profit based on the college sports game market here. The last one I've seen at all in stores here is NCAA 2K2 for the Dreamcast.

Of course, for about 10 years before that they were freely distributing college sports games here, so I've gotta wonder exactly what finally changed.

[buttasuperb]

When I said "certain games are gonna take a bit to track down, even if you have the money" I sure as hell didn't mean offering 450 for Radiant Silvergun, or 3500 for a Metal Slug homecart. I meant more like the going value plus a few bucks. If you offer 3 times what something is worth for almost anything in the world, you will find it pretty fast.

And I read the thread, but thanks for the snotty comment.

[Gunstarhero]

I don't necessarily agree with that. With only 5000 copies in NA (and for the sake of argument let's say there are 50 states and 10 provinces to worry about), that's only 83ish games per state/province.

Like I said, I'm too much a numbers guy

I may be underestimating the pull of this particular game, but judging by experience, another NCAA basketball game is nothing special. I guess I see 5000 copies as alot more than you do.


Actually, I think it's absurd to equate rarity with value. Just because an item is rare doesn't make it priceless. Demand is what makes it priceless.

I agree with that. But don't you agree that the only reason you are speculating about rarity is to decide whether to buy the game now at retail, or risk spending more in the future for it?



I don't think anybody is/was suggesting that. Of course current stuff isn't going to be as rare as older stuff. But Charlie's post started "Cross it off your potential rarity list". I see nothing wrong with discussing and pondering what will be the most rare games of this generation 20 years from now.


I've seen more hype than discussion. Hype is saying that these next generation games are Rare Right Now, which is what I've seen going on with NCAA 2k3 and this Ultimate Muscle. I mean it just isn't accurate or honest to depict these games as rare, not yet. It's one thing to say that a certain game is a blast to play, and not well known, so it may be harder to find in the future. As opposed to saying that a retail item is Rare right now you better go get it. There is still time to make more of these games anyway.


I'm gonna stop you right here. I couldn't care *less* about ROI. That's not why I'm interested in discussing which of today's games I might have problems finding tomorrow. I want to be sure, if a game is going to be tough to find, that I pick it up while I see it if I'm intersted in playing it. For example, the mentioning of Fatal Frame in another thread pretty much ensures I'll be getting it while I know I still can. Not because I think it'll increase in $$, but because I want to *play* it.

But it's still about money, even though you say you don't care about the investment part. Personally, I don't buy games all the time based on what I can sell it for later, I like to have the games and play them. However, the whole point of this speculation is to make a decision to buy now or later, and the risk involved money wise. Your afraid Fatal Frame will increase in money thats why you want to get it now so you don't overpay in the future right? I mean, you guys aren't speculating on mega hits like Vice City right? You know that game is gonna be dog easy to obtain for the next couple decades, so there's no risk involved monetarily, thus no speculation on future rarity.

Sorry, but the hype is ridiculous. I mean, we're not even for sure about rarities of N64 stuff right now, let alone to post about how some next gen game like NCAA 2k3 is rare. :)

[mrhaboobi]

So what that it has a print run of 5000 copies. Once 2k4 comes out, you'll be able to find it anytime you want on ebay for cheap.

I agree alot with what your saying, but isnt the point of this particular game ( ie, ncaa 2k3 Basketball,) that its not going to be replaced by a 2k4 version because sega are pulling out of the GC market? Meaning its the last ncaa title for the GC. Add in the fact its had a limited release would suggest it might be one of those hard to get games to complete a collection.

But thats just my thoughts

[crivit]

I really don't think anyone here has been trying to call these games rare in the same sense as some of the Atari carts. We're all smart enough to know that with any current system any game can be reprinted, but I DO appreciate the heads up on potential future rarities for these systems. Info like that is good for helping me decide what to pick up when I come across a few cheap games and don't have the $$ for all of them at once. As far as NCAA 2K3 goes, it's apparently rare. That doesn't mean it will always be valuable, and I hope the value does drop dramatically next year so I can pick one up. That drop is far from a sure thing though since there won't be a 2K4 for the cube, and the game already has a reputation for being valuable.

[Nature Boy]

I agree with that. But don't you agree that the only reason you are speculating about rarity is to decide whether to buy the game now at retail, or risk spending more in the future for it?

Speaking for myself only, cost isn't the big issue. If it's a game I want to play, like Fatal Frame, I just want to make sure I get it. It might only be a 5 in the future, but 5s are still hard to find, even if they're not pricey.


I've seen more hype than discussion. Hype is saying that these next generation games are Rare Right Now, which is what I've seen going on with NCAA 2k3 and this Ultimate Muscle. I mean it just isn't accurate or honest to depict these games as rare, not yet. It's one thing to say that a certain game is a blast to play, and not well known, so it may be harder to find in the future. As opposed to saying that a retail item is Rare right now you better go get it. There is still time to make more of these games anyway.

I don't think anybody is calling anything 'rare right now.' I'm not. And I'm sure we *all* agree that's rather ridiculous. But, 20 years ago, the games we now call rare now were available if you were looking for 'em.

If you're in it for the money, you want to find those games now. Same thing if you're looking to play 'em.


But it's still about money, even though you say you don't care about the investment part. Personally, I don't buy games all the time based on what I can sell it for later, I like to have the games and play them. However, the whole point of this speculation is to make a decision to buy now or later, and the risk involved money wise. Your afraid Fatal Frame will increase in money thats why you want to get it now so you don't overpay in the future right? I mean, you guys aren't speculating on mega hits like Vice City right? You know that game is gonna be dog easy to obtain for the next couple decades, so there's no risk involved monetarily, thus no speculation on future rarity.

I can see where you're right - I mean of course cost comes into it (unless a buddy gives me games for free I have to pay for everything I get). But I'm honestly just thinking about getting the game now, while I still see it.

To be honest I don't see Fatal Frame being that uncommon (I seem to see it around here quite a bit). It's been a game I've wanted since I played the demo, but I put off buying it. By giving me a heads up that it might be uncommon (as others have problems finding it) I just pushed my puchase decision up. I probably paid more now than I would've had I waited, but all I want is the game. And now I've got it (last night :) ).


Sorry, but the hype is ridiculous. I mean, we're not even for sure about rarities of N64 stuff right now, let alone to post about how some next gen game like NCAA 2k3 is rare.

I suppose part of speculation is hype. But the rarity listings for N64 stuff has begun. And, like everything else, it'll change over time. Buyer beware.

I don't honestly think sports games will *ever* be worth much, even if they're hard to come by. But that *is* precisely what people thought about baseball cards 20 years ago. You put them in your bike. You used them as kindling. You tossed them.

[orrimarrko]

WOW! This one got a little out of hand...fast.

Here's my two cents:

Rarity is completely comparative on its own. While what's rare to someone is not rare to someone else - I'm NOT referring to that horseshit.

What I'm talking about is what is RARE for the system.

I don't believe that anyone here would argue that there are certain games that are in the top ten rarest games, regardless of system: Video Life, Air Raid, NWC Gold cart, Kizuna Encounter Euro, etc. These are no-brainers.

What I am saying is that for EACH system, there are certain games that are more difficult to locate or purchase than others. For the Intellivision, there are a crop of late release games that are significantly more difficult to find than others. Same with Colecovision, NES, etc. EVery system has certain games that are harder to find (FOR THAT SYSTEM) than the rest of the library.

In the case of the GameCube, NCAA2K3 College Basketball is one of those such titles. Is it a rarity for the system? Yeah, sure. So in that respect, if you are looking to pin down (early on) games that are hard to get for the XBOX, PS2 or GameCube, then these kinds of posts are important. I don't believe the intent was to imply that these modern games are truly "rarities" in the annals of video game history.

However...

If a modern game has a release of 5000, does that fact make it "rare" in general? Not really, for 2 major reasons.

First, people treat games differently today than they did 20 years ago. in the early 80's, there was little to no after-market value for video games, so people didn't treat them with any respect to possible financial gain or as collectibles. Today, we are all living proof that times have changed. Comparing a release of 5000 for a modern title to a release of 5000 for a 2600 or NES title is completely different. Age isn't the main factor here - it's a question of fact that video games simply weren't cared for back then (the mindset is different.)

Second, the demand for these games doesn't significantly outweigh the supply. At least not to a point that anyone couldn't save up for a month to pay for one. Even though you still may be able to find a NCAA2K3 College Basketball or a Steel Batallion at a retail store (and I have recently, so that's how I know), you most likely will be able to find them on any given day on eBay or through a video game seller on the internet. If they were in great demand, then they wouldn't be readily available (with minimal effort) regardless of price.

I can't recall even one time over the last several months that I have seen an NES Flintstones 2: Surprise at Dino Peak come up on ebay. Rare like Air Raid - obviously not. Rarer than NCAA2K3 College Basketball for the GC - definitely. Were there more than 5000 released? I don't know.

Even if you had enough funds to make a legitimately serious offer to buy Rick Weis' Air Raid cart, he would probably say no.

Anyway, just my two cents. Rarity should be judged on a system only basis (ie. within the XBOX library, Steel Batallion is the rarest game - or whatever.)

Peace-
Steve

[zmeston]

There are eloquent arguments throughout this thread, but Joe's simple and straightforward ten-point rarity system is still the only way to go. Heh.

-- Z.

[Nature Boy]

There are eloquent arguments throughout this thread, but Joe's simple and straightforward ten-point rarity system is still the only way to go. Heh.

-- Z.

If it's so straightforward, why is 'common' represented by 4 numbers (1 - 4), 'uncommon' by 2 (5, 6) and 'rare' by 4 (7 - 10)? Each should be represented by 3 numbers, with 10 being reserved for those holy grails IMO :D

(I'm joking of course - but I did look at the guide last night to verify to myself that 10 wasn't the only 'rare' number, plus I picked up a couple of PSX games yesterday that are 5s in the WIP guide).