SNES PowerPak vs. Buying Games

[BacteriaInfection]

hello everyone!

After several months of lurking I figured it was time I register. :) It's good to be at a place where other people appreciate the best type of gaming: classic gaming.

So recently I've been considering buying the snes powerpak but I'm not sure if I should dish out $140+ for the thing!

On the one hand, it'll allow me to play almost any game(excluding the special chips ones), but it's a hefty price to pay.

I really would like to own the actual game cartridges, but that has a negative as well. The games I really want to own are Mega man 7, X2, and X3...all rare games and quite expensive too!

So basically I just need some advice or general words of wisdom regarding my situation. Note, I'm not made of money so both options are not viable. Which one should I purchase? Anyone know if the powerpak will drop in price anytime soon?

thanks!

[JimmyDean]

Classic gaming is the best! Anyway, the powerpak won't support x2 or x3 because they had coprocessors on board... However, it will support DPS-1 games such as Mario Kart.

[BacteriaInfection]

thanks jimmy!

I didn't even know it doesn't support those Mega man games. That changes the balance of where I'm leaning.

I guess the other reason I wanted to get the powerpak is to try rpg's...yet another category where the carts are expensive.

I'm not too knowledgeable when it comes to all the specs and chips, but I'm assuming games like Lufia, Earthbound, BOF, Secret of Mana etc ARE compatible with the powerpak. But that thing is so damn expensive.

[bartre]

as far as RPGs go, the only one that i know of that it might not support would be Star Ocean.
imo, if you were gonna get a powerpak, i'd just recommend you get an original xbox, and mod it, most likely cheaper, plus it would support all the games.

[badinsults]

Star Ocean is supported if you use the patch that expands the graphics and removes the need for the SDD-1.

Really, if all you care about is playing games, but want to ensure that the games play properly, you should really give the emulator bsnes a try. Bsnes is designed to emulate snes hardware almost identically. The powerpak is also a good choice if you want to play on a real system, and the vast majority of games should work. I would say that the xbox is only just adequate, as the emulators that are compatible with it are not perfect (I've notices some sound issues, for instance).

[shopkins]

If you're going to emulate, just emulate. I don't see the need for this expensive extra step.

[Eyedunno]

If you're going to emulate, just emulate. I don't see the need for this expensive extra step.
The SNES is not powerful enough to emulate itself. What you get from the PowerPak is the games running completely natively.

Anyway, as for RPGs, Super Mario RPG is not supported. Star Ocean is only supported through neviksti's 96 meg ROM hacks. It's a fine hack though. Also, I believe one of the Dai Kaijuu Monogatari games has a real-time clock, and is thus not supported. That's all I can think of off the top of my head; other RPGs should work.

Edit: I should add that RPGs (and other games that save) are the chief reason I bought my PowerPak. It doesn't use a battery, so saves should stick around indefinitely and be easily backed up as well. I bought a Mash-Mods programmer as well to back up my surviving saves, so now I have no worries about losing anything. :)

[BetaWolf47]

PowerPak is good for being able to play imports, hacks, fan translations, and homebrew games too. It's either that or making a repro.

[fahlim003]

PowerPak is good for being able to play hacks, fan translations, and homebrew games too.

Fixed. This is a good reason to own it I suppose, and to try some more expensive games out before buying them. It's good it has DSP-1 support but not crucial since most games with that chip are cheap/domestic.

[shopkins]

PowerPak is good for being able to play imports, hacks, fan translations, and homebrew games too. It's either that or making a repro.

You can play those on your computer, too, though, right? If you're not actually going to collect it, I just don't see the point of buying a device like this. It can't be just to play it on a TV, there are lots of easier, cheaper ways to do that including just picking up a few bucks of RadioShack hardware.

[BetaWolf47]

You can play those on your computer, too, though, right? If you're not actually going to collect it, I just don't see the point of buying a device like this. It can't be just to play it on a TV, there are lots of easier, cheaper ways to do that including just picking up a few bucks of RadioShack hardware.

Connecting it to your TV may be cheaper, but then you're still stuck with the inherent flaws of emulation. Not to mention, for it to be comparable, you also have to track down a quality PC gamepad.

[Steven]

I might have to hunt down a PowerPak eventually. How does it work transferring your files to the PowerPak? I'm very unsavvy with these things, lol. Do you just put the flash card in your PC and click on some buttons? Is it as simple as it sounds?

[BacteriaInfection]

Yeah, I used to emulate also, but there's just something special about playing it on my old snes that makes the experience more enjoyable. I dunno, maybe I'm being picky or weird. I mean, I'm definitely not one of these purists, but I just can't do emulators.

I guess the powerpak is a form of emulation also, but the fact that I can play it on my snes and hold the game cart somehow makes it acceptable.

Are all games rare now? Or am I having bad luck selecting games? Seems like every game I want to play is rare and priced up the ying yang. R-type 3, Mega Man 7, X2, X3, Earthbound...etc etc

damnit. I just realized that I'm going to have to drop tons of $$$ to play these games. Seems like there's no way around it.:roll:

[OldSchoolGamer]

You can play those on your computer, too, though, right? If you're not actually going to collect it, I just don't see the point of buying a device like this. It can't be just to play it on a TV, there are lots of easier, cheaper ways to do that including just picking up a few bucks of RadioShack hardware.

Well obviously some of us do see the point. For me it is simply using the original hardware which I prefer but I do not necessarily like to take the time to track down all the cartridges. Also just convenience of having all the titles for readily available on a single cart saving room as well as I like just only needing the one cart and saving wear and tear on the cart slot. These as well as the other points mentioned. The may seem insignificant to you or not worth the price for what they do but many of do obviously enjoy these products. I have one for Colecovision, Atari and plan on getting the one for Atari 5200, megacart for Vic 20 etc. Love the convenience and ease of use. No one is looking to change your mind or sell it to you but hey it is simply different strokes for different folks here.

[Steven]

just convenience of having all the titles for readily available on a single cart saving room as well as I like just only needing the one cart and saving wear and tear on the cart slot.


The (future) wife would appreciate that greatly, especially if you're like me and have over 500 carts lying around, LOL!

[jperryss]

You'll never convince me that the PowerPak is a good choice over a modded XBOX. If you just want access to a ton of games easily, mod an XBOX.

The PowerPak is a ripoff. It's priced high because it can be, there isn't exactly a ton of competition in the SNES flash cart market. If a bunch of other guys started making/selling them, you'd see the price drop. Remember how expensive GBA and DS flashcarts were a few years ago? They can be had for peanuts now.

You really need to decide if you are more collector or gamer. If you just want to play (and cheat :D) it's hard to beat a softmodded original XBOX. I'm sure a working XBOX with a controller or two (and probably a couple games) can be had on CL for under $50. The softmodding process can be done in an afternoon (maybe less depending on which version) and then some time tinkering and you're good to go. Pretty much the entire pre-N64 library at your fingertips (N64 and PS1 emulation is sketchy) with full GG/AR functionality, save/load state, etc.

If you want to collect and play, well start saving your pennies. :D I pieced my collection together over the course of about 3 years (NES, SNES, TG/PCE). Some games were bought in bulk eBay or Craigslist lots (then extras were sold-off/relisted), some were bought/traded here on DP, and a small portion were bought individually. If I knew I'd have invested as much as I finally did, I probably never would've started. :D But the 'hunt' for games was a lot of fun.

If you don't go the XBOX route, you can always try-before-you-buy with any PC emulator.


As funny as this sounds, I'm not too big a fan of emulation nowadays, but emulation is what got me BACK INTO collecting carts after many years.

[Bugbear]

...but hey it is simply different strokes for different folks here.

The stroke's the word.

I cannot begin to imagine the value of a SNES powerpak for convenience purposes. I refuse to play some games on emulators, but I can't expect to afford all of the rare titles that I'm after.
I would really want the carts, because the games mean a lot to me, but to have all of them, expensive or not, when it makes me cry to see the total of the games I'd like, I'm willing to improvise. They're getting very expensive, and because they're good, sought after games.

[ibeenew2]

The PowerPak is a ripoff. It's priced high because it can be, there isn't exactly a ton of competition in the SNES flash cart market. If a bunch of other guys started making/selling them, you'd see the price drop. Remember how expensive GBA and DS flashcarts were a few years ago? They can be had for peanuts now.

You may not be interested in buying one, but you apparently don't even understand the market. There are currently at least 4 different SNES flash carts in production (Mash Mods, Tototek, Neoflash, RetroZone). The PowerPak is high priced because its damn complicated and uses expensive components, and is still cheaper than the chinese neoflash cart. The other 2 are the cheapest, but do not use memory cards. The PowerPak price is right in line or cheaper than flash carts for every other retro system.

DS flash carts are cheap because they are simple and made by the MILLIONS by chinese companies. The production volume for retro carts just doesn't exist for huge discounts.

[Jorpho]

The games I really want to own are Mega man 7, X2, and X3...all rare games and quite expensive too!If those are principally what you're after, you do realize that you should be able to pick up the Mega Man and Mega Man X compilations released for the last gen fairly easily, right?

[Eyedunno]

I might have to hunt down a PowerPak eventually. How does it work transferring your files to the PowerPak? I'm very unsavvy with these things, lol. Do you just put the flash card in your PC and click on some buttons? Is it as simple as it sounds?
Well, basically yes. It's at least far less complicated than any of the other mentioned alternatives, and you can store far more games. Basically just have a CF card formatted to FAT32, copy the files however you like, put in some save files for the games that need them (you can make blank save files by just opening each ROM for a second in an emulator), and you're good to go.

A few caveats though:
Some people have had issues with certain CF cards/certain SNESes (particularly modded SNESes, where moving the cartridge slot apparently creates timing issues). But compatibility has improved, and I'm not one of those anymore (my Super Famicom Jr. now works), so I can't speak much about it.
Files on the drive will not appear sorted on the PowerPak (as they do on flashcarts for more powerful systems), so unless you use a sorting app, they will appear in the order you added them. This is for your benefit, to speed up menu loading. There are free applications available to organize FAT drives; I use DriveSort for Windows.
If you have a lot of ROMs on the card, it's to your advantage to sort them into folders to speed up navigation. :P Personally, I have fewer than 50 games (I only put three ROMs on that I don't actually own), and I sort them into directories called ROMS_A-M and ROMS_N-Z. If you plan to add your 500, you will have an easier time with a lot more folders. :P
Saving is a little weird. The SRAM is not battery-backed and the reset button functions normally for the most part (for games where you might need it). To save, you have to HOLD the reset button for five seconds, then when you release it, you will be back at the PowerPak menu with a prompt to move data to CF. I actually love this system though - batteries are finicky, and I've played through several RPGs from beginning to end on the PowerPak.

As I said before, I originally got my PowerPak because of battery save worries (not to mention actual data loss), but now I think I love it as much for the ability to have almost all of my games (aside from Star Fox and Street Fighter Zero 2) in one place. Most of the convenience of emulation with none of the setbacks, gotta love it!

[Ed Oscuro]

Connecting it to your TV may be cheaper, but then you're still stuck with the inherent flaws of emulation. Not to mention, for it to be comparable, you also have to track down a quality PC gamepad.
BSNES on the first front, output through a video card with TV support, and a $20 Saturn USB controller. No big deal. Heck, with an emulator you get some functionality for overcoming inherent flaws of the original thing (easier saving, no more regional disputes, no dirty contacts ever, better cheat support, and so on). I'm sure that adds up, but doesn't a SNES and especially the Power Pak add up as well?

Anyway, there's lots of options out there, plenty are great.

[Rickstilwell1]

The drawback of a modded regular Xbox is timing issues. Input from the controller always seems to lag, even on SD TVs. If you take minor lag from the SD TV and use an HDTV instead, it makes some action games virtually unplayable. Also, having to FTP the games and used a wired connection to do so is a real pain (especially since my main computer doesn't have a working LAN port)

[jperryss]

You may not be interested in buying one, but you apparently don't even understand the market...

Hey, welcome to DP and thanks for registering today just to respond to me. :D

My point was that if you're not willing to buy every game you want to play, there are cheaper/convenient ways to play all those games you can't afford or don't want to shell out the cash for. Yes, there is a certain charm to playing them on the original hardware, I can admit that. But an XBOX can be had for 1/3 the price, can be completely loaded up with everything you could possibly want in one shot, and has tons more functionality (DVD/media player, XBOX titles, other emulation, etc).

Maybe the PowerPak isn't 'overpriced' but it's still expensive for what you get out of it.



The drawback of a modded regular Xbox is timing issues. Input from the controller always seems to lag, even on SD TVs. If you take minor lag from the SD TV and use an HDTV instead, it makes some action games virtually unplayable. Also, having to FTP the games and used a wired connection to do so is a real pain (especially since my main computer doesn't have a working LAN port)

On my HDTV the lag was TERRIBLE, but I noticed no lag on my Triniton (27" flat tube) or my Magnavox (25" tube). But yes, loading games can be a PITA if you don't have a router nearby. If you plan properly, you only need to do that once. :D

[ibeenew2]

Hey, welcome to DP and thanks for registering today just to respond to me. :D

Maybe the PowerPak isn't 'overpriced' but it's still expensive for what you get out of it.

Thanks for saying something important enough to reply to :) Expensive, overpriced, and rip off are three completely different things, while only the first may apply to the PowerPak (and most retro flash carts). SNES has the most competition of any of the retro systems except the most recent one to come out from neoflash is still the highest priced.

[Greg2600]

If I were going to get any of the SNES flash carts, this is the one I'd get. I can't say enough good things about the NES one, and this guy does good work. It's very unlikely anyone else will do better, because the games it cannot play require special hardware. Hardware that is no longer produced, and that would be extremely expensive and probably illegal to replicate again.

[Jorpho]

It's very unlikely anyone else will do better, because the games it cannot play require special hardware. Hardware that is no longer produced, and that would be extremely expensive and probably illegal to replicate again.If the DSP can be replicated, why not the other chips?

I would think the obstacles would principally be a desire not to make the device overly complex for the sake of a handful of games, and simply the difficulty involved in the programming.

[Eyedunno]

If the DSP can be replicated, why not the other chips?

I would think the obstacles would principally be a desire not to make the device overly complex for the sake of a handful of games, and simply the difficulty involved in the programming.
The DSP is not replicated; it's an original chip, cannibalized from cheap copies of Pilotwings and other stuff.

But yeah, it can be done... eventually. It's a matter of reverse-engineering the chips and programming an FPGA to emulate them. It's not an easy task by any means, and according to people who are much more tech-savvy than I am, the DSP will actually be harder to copy than, say, an SFX chip, though the SFX chip is still no trivial task. But maybe some day...

In any case, the PowerPak uses the extra pins for dynamic memory allocation, IIRC, so the PowerPak will never support any of these other chips, and prepare to wait a decade or two for FPGA emulation of multiple SNES coprocessors.

[BAD PIXEL]

I bought my SNES Power Pak a few months ago and haven't regretted it since. I can play it on my Super Famicom without any modification, using original hardware/controllers. Japanese games with English patches that were never released here are playable. There are no emulation glitches. It's fully compatible with the FC 16 Go (portable SNES) so I can pretty much take all my games with me when I'm on the road and continue play on my console at home.

It's true about certain games that utilize custom chips, they don't work. But 95% of the games I want to play work with no glitches. It's worth every penny if you ask me.

[BacteriaInfection]

I bought my SNES Power Pak a few months ago and haven't regretted it since. I can play it on my Super Famicom without any modification, using original hardware/controllers. Japanese games with English patches that were never released here are playable. There are no emulation glitches. It's fully compatible with the FC 16 Go (portable SNES) so I can pretty much take all my games with me when I'm on the road and continue play on my console at home.

Why not just use the free SNES emulator homebrew on DS? The nintendo hardware is definitely of higher quality then the FC 16 Go, and also....the emulator is FREE so you still don't have to pay the OUTRAGEOUS $140 for the powerpak.

A part of me still wants to buy the thing, but I'm really having a hard time justifying the purchase. If the price dropped to around $100, I'd for sure get it.

[Jorpho]

Why not just use the free SNES emulator homebrew on DS? The nintendo hardware is definitely of higher quality then the FC 16 Go, and also....the emulator is FREE so you still don't have to pay the OUTRAGEOUS $140 for the powerpak.Unless things have changed lately, the only SNES emulators available for DS are very limited/inaccurate.

[Greg2600]

It's a matter of playing on original hardware or not. If not, then there are many emulation options on newer consoles.

I actually have used an SNES emulator on Gameboy Advance and it performs quite well.

As for reproducing chips, I can't see it happening. The extreme cost would probably never be financially sound. Even so, you'd need the schematics of the original chips, are those even in the public domain? I know Curt Vendel has acquired and released the design of old Atari chips, but Atari is long dead as a company.

[Einzelherz]

I plan on buying one. I already own most of the SNES games I'd ever want but the ability to play translations on the actual console is immense. This is coming from a guy who has used PS1 conrollers to play everything on a SDTV through his computer for about ten years. IMO that's about as close at is gets for emulation.

DS SNES emulators still suck. The PSP's wasn't any better last time I used it.

[jperryss]

I actually have used an SNES emulator on Gameboy Advance and it performs quite well.

Are you sure? Which one? The only one I ever saw get anywhere was SNESAdvance (I think it was renamed at one point) and that ran some games but with no sound and most were unplayable (it was more of a proof of concept).

[Astrocade]

There are NO, I repeat, NO 100% emulators out there for the SNES. There are a couple that come damned close, but none are perfect. If you want to play the games as originally as possible short of owning each cart, then the Powerpack is the way to go.

However, I don't think it's worth 140.00. I bought one off Craigslist for 60.00, which is still a little high for my taste. (40.00 is reasonable IMO).

My personal opinion is that if you want to play emulated SNES games quickly and easily, just download some Emu/ROM sets for the Dreamcast. Forget all that hacking the X-Box bios softmod shit; just burn the disc and play away. Besides, the few SNES emus on the Dreamcast don't suffer the lag time in controls that most X Box SNES emus do. You may have to drop the audio in some games or fiddle with the framerate, but most ROMS are quite playable.

[BetaWolf47]

Thing is about emulation on DS, it's always improving. If you buy an FC-16 Go, it's always going to have the same limitations. Even though most emulators are progressing slowly, they will get there.

[Leo_A]

If you want to play the games as originally as possible short of owning each cart, then the Powerpack is the way to go.

However, I don't think it's worth 140.00. I bought one off Craigslist for 60.00, which is still a little high for my taste. (40.00 is reasonable IMO).


I find that hard to believe.

And even if by some fluke it is, your talking like getting a PowerPak in that manner and for those prices is a viable choice. I can assure everyone here that you will not be locating one off Craigslist and you will not be finding one offline or online for $40-$60.

[Greg2600]

Are you sure? Which one? The only one I ever saw get anywhere was SNESAdvance (I think it was renamed at one point) and that ran some games but with no sound and most were unplayable (it was more of a proof of concept).
SNES Advance, yes, which is like 6 years old. I got the EZ Flash IV GBA card. The SNES Advance program is used to convert an SNES rom to a GBA Rom. Somehow the emulation is added to it at that time. It's the same thing for NES (PocketNES), Gameboy Color (Goomba). The only stinker is you have to combine games into single GBA files in order to switch around. Otherwise you have to exit the "emulator" entirely and go into another "copy" of it. They all work like that on the GBA. I don't have a DS. The only problem I'm having is that I can't exit the emulator using the hotkeys. I think there is a fix/workaround for that, but I haven't bothered yet. I think I only tried a couple games, but Super Mario World I know worked fine.

[BacteriaInfection]

Can someone explain to me why the hell the powerpak costs $140. No matter how I do the math, the total production costs etc don't add up to anything near that figure.

Even if we assume worst case scenario it costs them $100 per unit to make so that for each sale they are making $40, I still don't see how it's costing them $100 to make this thing??

I mean, a famiclone system like the Retro Duo, that is 2 systems in one, comes with two controllers is still only about $40-60. Or what about the Gen Mobile? Comes with 20 games built in and still doesn't cost half that amount. It doesn't add up....it just doesn't add up.

A part of me thinks their "it's expensive and requires a lot of work" argument is a bunch of baloney. NOW I'm NOT saying there aren't any legitimate costs associated with producing the thing, but $140 seems completely UNREASONABLE. I really feel there's a lot of greed involved in that number

[ibeenew2]

The first thing you need to realize is that a 50% profit margin is normal, not at all greedy. EVERYTHING you buy is at least double the manufacturing cost. If it goes through a distributer thats another doubling of the price compared to the cost.

The next part is that clone systems are amazingly cheap to build. NOAC chips are literally $0.25 each in bulk. The rest of the electronics and plastics is a couple dollars total. That is how a $10 NES clone with a keyboard can be sold and still make a profit. See playpower.org for someone trying to use those for education. The $40-60 NES/SNES clone is likely around $8-12 to fabricate, and since it is just a single chip there is no hard design work needed.

And the final piece is that things like the PowerPak are very hard to build. Assuming you already know computer architecture and programming and pcb design it would be many months to a year to design one. Then there is the prototype board costs of ~$500 each, and plastics mold cost of ~$5k. Expect to be $7k in the red just from the start. Then another $5-10k to actually get the production done. Not many people are able to do all that!

After all if the PowerPak ($140) is being greedy, the chinese neoflash myth is even more expensive so they must be super greedy. Cart+programmer like mash mods ($115) with far less electronics and design would have to be a rip off. And tototek cart+programmer ($80) that doesn't even have USB would be exploiting people.

These carts aren't like DS flash carts that are made by the millions. In the case of the PowerPak its one guy with a family he probably would like to feed and house. I think the mash mods is also one guy doing great work.

[Jorpho]

There are NO, I repeat, NO 100% emulators out there for the SNES. There are a couple that come damned close, but none are perfect.Come now, ZSNES was perfectly adequate for everyone for years. The way some people talk about BSNES now, you'd think ZSNES was like playing a SNES with an ice pick stabbed through your skull, or something.


Thing is about emulation on DS, it's always improving. If you buy an FC-16 Go, it's always going to have the same limitations. Even though most emulators are progressing slowly, they will get there.Unfortunately, DS homebrew has been around for years and SNES emulation is still quite limited, apparently. At this rate the DS will be discontinued by the time it all gets fixed.


Can someone explain to me why the hell the powerpak costs $140. No matter how I do the math, the total production costs etc don't add up to anything near that figure.

Even if we assume worst case scenario it costs them $100 per unit to make so that for each sale they are making $40, I still don't see how it's costing them $100 to make this thing??

I mean, a famiclone system like the Retro Duo, that is 2 systems in one, comes with two controllers is still only about $40-60. Or what about the Gen Mobile? Comes with 20 games built in and still doesn't cost half that amount. It doesn't add up....it just doesn't add up.

A part of me thinks their "it's expensive and requires a lot of work" argument is a bunch of baloney. NOW I'm NOT saying there aren't any legitimate costs associated with producing the thing, but $140 seems completely UNREASONABLE. I really feel there's a lot of greed involved in that numberOy, not this again. Didn't we go through this all in some NES Powerpak thread?

I would certainly think that if they're cannibalizing a Pilotwings cart for every Powerpak, that would bump up the price.

[Greg2600]

Can someone explain to me why the hell the powerpak costs $140. No matter how I do the math, the total production costs etc don't add up to anything near that figure.

Even if we assume worst case scenario it costs them $100 per unit to make so that for each sale they are making $40, I still don't see how it's costing them $100 to make this thing??

I mean, a famiclone system like the Retro Duo, that is 2 systems in one, comes with two controllers is still only about $40-60. Or what about the Gen Mobile? Comes with 20 games built in and still doesn't cost half that amount. It doesn't add up....it just doesn't add up.

A part of me thinks their "it's expensive and requires a lot of work" argument is a bunch of baloney. NOW I'm NOT saying there aren't any legitimate costs associated with producing the thing, but $140 seems completely UNREASONABLE. I really feel there's a lot of greed involved in that number
Retro Duo likely had a very high production run, professionally, perhaps even in an actual factory. The guy doing the PowerPak's is not making that many. As an example, the guy making the Atari 2600 flash cart, which is much smaller, with less hardware than the SNES PowerPak, had to increase the base model to $60 to try to get back even. They're making them by hand, it takes time, and you need to make $$$ to make your time worth it.