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Cryomancer
06-04-2010, 02:17 AM
The church at the early portion of CT isn't even an evil religion anyway, it's monsters with an evil agenda taking over a church. The original place would have been a normal "good" church otherwise.

Tempest
06-04-2010, 09:43 AM
Dragon Quest 8 also really sucked me in, even with the rather generic plot. I've found if I really like the characters in a game I'll play it through and love it.

That's why I liked DQ 8 as well. Yangus was just too cool.

I think that's the problem with most RPG's these days, you can't get into them because you don't care about the characters. Hell in some cases I actually was rooting for my characters to die because they annoyed me so much (Tales of Symphonia: DotNW I'm looking in your direction). I think Final Fantasy XIII wouldn't have been nearly as bad if the characters weren't so unlikable (other the Sazh).

Tales of Vesperia was another game that really sucked me in, mostly because the characters were really well done. Eternal Sonata did as well (to a point), but I knew how it was going to end so it made it hard to get emotionally invested in the main character.

Tempest

skaar
06-04-2010, 10:18 AM
I think DQ8 and Vesperia's strength was the small party. Once RPGs started having like 8+ characters it got a little hard to give a rat's ass about any of them. Some can pull it off, though. It just takes a lot more effort.

Chrono Cross did not pull it off.

Eyedunno
06-04-2010, 11:51 AM
I think DQ8 and Vesperia's strength was the small party. Once RPGs started having like 8+ characters it got a little hard to give a rat's ass about any of them. Some can pull it off, though. It just takes a lot more effort.

Chrono Cross did not pull it off.
I think this is a big part of why I don't like FFVI as much as the games in the series that preceded and followed it (though I also think all of the abilities introduced in FFVI suck*, as does the Magicite system, and I think Kefka is less compelling of a villain than even, say, Exdeath, and especially compared to a Golbeza or a Sephiroth). I realize that won't make me too many friends though. :P

Edit: *Actually, Mash/Sabin's Hissatsuwaza/Blitzes are pretty good, but the fact that they're performed with fighting-game-style button inputs is one of the worst gimmicks ever in a JRPG.

Aussie2B
06-04-2010, 12:27 PM
Chrono Cross failed in that regard because, for the most part, they didn't introduce the characters in any significant way. They were just thrown in your party and that was that, besides the occasional generic line that any character would say, except in different annoying "accents".

tri-Ace has done a good job with large parties, I feel. I mean, in Valkyrie Profile, every character recruitment is preceded by said character's tragic death. If that's not gonna stick in your mind, I don't know what will. And then you got Radiata Stories, where for many of the characters you have learn what they do with their lives by actively following them around and then finding a way to break the cycle and solve their problems. It really brings them to life. Granted, in these games you don't get much out of the characters once they join, but I think that's for the best. There's no way to pleasantly add a lot of character development at that point. You'd have to either make the player wade through massive amounts of cutscenes to develop all the dozens of characters (which after awhile would surely feel forced) or you could only develop the ones that the player currently has in the active party, which would be brutal to completionists who'd have to play the game over and over to see the development of every character. Maybe that's an inherent flaw of the large party and an argument as to why parties should be small, but personally I got no problem as long as there's at least one notable scene for each. That's where tri-Ace failed in Valkyrie Profile 2 - same kind of concept as the original, except they just instantly join, no scene at all. To get any info about their lives and deaths, all you get is a boring paragraph in their profiles.

Jisho23
06-04-2010, 12:54 PM
But as generic as DQ8's plot was, it was still written in such a way that you had to keep playing to really figure everything out and learn the truth behind everything. Its a really well paced story.

As far as Kefka vs Exdeath and Golbez... yeah, he really isn't as compelling of a villain. But that doesn't make him any worse of a villain. When I first played FF3, I really didn't know that Kefka was gonna turn out to be the big bad guy (although, I was 10 or 12 when I first played the game) so it was really surprising. Compelling, no. Effect? Yes.

Arkhan
06-04-2010, 02:56 PM
I think DQ8 and Vesperia's strength was the small party. Once RPGs started having like 8+ characters it got a little hard to give a rat's ass about any of them. Some can pull it off, though. It just takes a lot more effort.

Chrono Cross did not pull it off.

pfffffff

you're only supposed to give a rats ass about a small handful of central characters in CC. The rest are just filler for your time warp extravaganza.

mobiusclimber
06-04-2010, 03:16 PM
I think Kefka works well as a villain not because of what his goals are (what are his goals, again?) but because of what he did to achieve them. Got me wanting to kick his ass at least.

As for abilities, I thought Blitz was a lot of fun w/ the fighting game moves. I also loved Edgar's tools or whatever it was called. I'm usually not a fan of the abilities in FF games, Dragoons' jump ability in particular, but I thought the ones in VI were creative and, mostly, useful. The game also, amazingly, did a great job making the player care about each character and really invest them in their own personality. I never felt like there were just a ton of characters who joined for no reason and then added nothing after they joined.

Finally, while I don't like the fact that Square moved away from having a class system (or characters that had a well-defined class/job that they used throughout the game), I absolutely loved Magicite. What I liked was that, not only did it have spells to learn and a summon attached to it, but it also gave level up bonuses, which added some strategy to equipping them.

Voliko
06-05-2010, 01:53 AM
Chrono Trigger
Final Fantasy VI
Shining Force

They all drew me in in a way I can't describe.

skaar
06-05-2010, 11:46 AM
I think Kefka works well as a villain not because of what his goals are (what are his goals, again?) but because of what he did to achieve them. Got me wanting to kick his ass at least.

Kefka worked great as a villain because he didn't kill your father, rape your mother, burn your village and blow up your home planet. Well I guess he kinda blew up your home planet, but still. He was an average type guy who saw an opportunity and seized it, and it made him a great little villain.

Lunar's another one of those RPGs people love because of the story and limited group of characters who all have a load of interaction with each other. It's been a fan favourite for years and I'm sure it was mentioned higher up in the thread.

skaar
06-05-2010, 11:50 AM
Actually I should mention Fallout 3 as well. Two winters ago, we had a blizzard in Victoria. We never get snow, so this was a unique thing. We shut down the company for a week over the holidays, and I spent a lot of time downstairs in my basement in PJs and my flannel robe strolling around a wasteland with the surround cranked. It was pretty awesome exploring and hearing nothing but the wind around you when you first step out of the vault. I must have sunk 60 hours into that game in a week.

backguard
06-05-2010, 07:08 PM
are you including mmorpgs in your list? if so many of them are "engrossing" (e.g. addictive). i haven't played WoW but it sounds like people love it.

The last best traditional rpg I played was Persona 3 FES.

BUT - what I would recommend most of all is picking up a C64 or Apple II emulator and booting up Ultima V. BEST RPG EVER imo. :)

kupomogli
06-05-2010, 08:50 PM
Since I've seen mention of games that have a lot of party members yet still have a decent amount of story for each character, I want to say Suikoden 3 is one of those games.

The Suikoden series has 108 characters yet most of the characters have a bit of backstory on how they're acquired, yet a lot are just standing there waiting for you to come get them to join your party.

On Suikoden 3 there's 50+ characters that have story sequences. It's possible to skip picking up certain characters prior to the final chapters and avoid story sequences altogether.

I wouldn't say this is one of the most engrossing RPG titles I've played. It's a good game, great storyline and gameplay. Just wanted to mention how it's got a ton of characters and there is a bit of backstory on each of them.

Chaz From Phantasy Star 2
06-06-2010, 12:02 PM
Chrono Cross failed in that regard because, for the most part, they didn't introduce the characters in any significant way. They were just thrown in your party and that was that, besides the occasional generic line that any character would say, except in different annoying "accents".

Anyone who says this isn't playing the game right. Chrono Cross has a plethora of sidequests, almost everyone is developed if you just go out there and do them!

Seaquest
06-06-2010, 12:49 PM
For me it would have to be Golden Sun one and two. The games are amazing, packed with great graphics storyline and gameplay! I hope Golden Sun three DS will be just as good. The first two game are found on the GBA,you should run to your local game store and pick these classics up!:villagepeople:

Eyedunno
06-06-2010, 12:52 PM
I think Kefka works well as a villain not because of what his goals are (what are his goals, again?) but because of what he did to achieve them. Got me wanting to kick his ass at least.
Eh, if you say so. I prefer my villains to be at least a little sympathetic though.


As for abilities, I thought Blitz was a lot of fun w/ the fighting game moves.
I thought it was more of a hassle than fun. For every other character, you get used to entering commands, RPG-style. Maybe Blitz breaks the monotony, but at the same time, it interferes with the flow of the battle.


I also loved Edgar's tools or whatever it was called.
Oh, thanks for bringing up tools. Yeah, I guess that's also a decent ability, but its problem is that it becomes far less useful in the last part of the game.


I'm usually not a fan of the abilities in FF games, Dragoons' jump ability in particular, but I thought the ones in VI were creative and, mostly, useful. The game also, amazingly, did a great job making the player care about each character and really invest them in their own personality. I never felt like there were just a ton of characters who joined for no reason and then added nothing after they joined.
The problem I had with it was how much of the "character development" stuff was way out of left field - Cid is like a father to Celes and she does love him so, Tina/Terra loves children, and Edgar is writing letters to that girl... It feels like almost the whole last half of the game is just silly vignettes like this that have nothing to do with the characters' relationships to each other and no relevance whatsoever to the final battle (not even in terms of getting stronger in preparation!).


Finally, while I don't like the fact that Square moved away from having a class system (or characters that had a well-defined class/job that they used throughout the game), I absolutely loved Magicite. What I liked was that, not only did it have spells to learn and a summon attached to it, but it also gave level up bonuses, which added some strategy to equipping them.
But since a maxed stat is 127, that strategy is usually "for each character, pick the one stat that's most useful and grind it like crazy". Not having natural stats boosts also doesn't help. And having spell learning made mages cheap in a game where magic is supposed to be a rare commodity. You can use Magicite to make anyone or everyone in the game a decent mage, but you can't use it to make, say, Relm, a decent fighter; you're just screwed on that count.

kupomogli
06-06-2010, 02:06 PM
The problem I had with it was how much of the "character development" stuff was way out of left field - Cid is like a father to Celes and she does love him so, Tina/Terra loves children, and Edgar is writing letters to that girl... It feels like almost the whole last half of the game is just silly vignettes like this that have nothing to do with the characters' relationships to each other and no relevance whatsoever to the final battle (not even in terms of getting stronger in preparation!).

Cyan was writing letters to the girl. Edgar found a group of thieves who escaped from Figaro and used the name Gerad for them to lead him back there.

Besides. I don't see any problem with the second half of Final Fantasy 6's storyline. Every character gets separated and according to them, who knows if any of the others are alive. It's definitely a lot more realistic than your idea of each character deciding to take on Kefka by themselves.

And the ability Tools is less useful when you get items Offering, Gembox, Economizer, etc. You'll do just as much damage or more than all but the ultimate weapons in the game, Ragnarok, Illumina, Atma Weapon. With a high magic value the third level of spells and those stronger will take off more damage. For something that costs no magic it's powerful. Sabin's bum rush is a lot more effective than Chainsaw or Drill but the Tools ability is worth using over your regular attack throughout pretty much the entire game.

If you want to talk about less useful abilities. Why not talk about Mog's Dance, which is really good, but you have a high chance of it not working and when it does not allowed to choose the abilities. Cyan's SwdTech is useful for Dispatch(level 1,) Retort(level 2,) or a Retort glitch. Locke's Steal is worthless as there's literally nothing in the game worth stealing until very late in the game, and by then you don't need it. Relm's Sketch is garbage. So yeah. Tools is definitely a skill that's nice to have in comparison to other abilities.

Oldskool
06-06-2010, 02:36 PM
Castlevania II Simons Quest
Zelda II
Faxanadu

Marriott_Guy
06-06-2010, 04:02 PM
Being a pretty big RPG fan, here are my favorites (in no particular order):

o Suikoden II (PS1)
o King's Field II (PS1)
o Elder Scrolls: Morrowind (Xbox)
o Dragon's Quest VIII (PS2)
o Shadow Hearts: Covenant (PS2)
o Phantasy Star IV (Genesis)
o Final Fantasy VII (PS1)
o Lucienne's Quest (3DO)
o Sacred 2: Fallen Angel (Xbox 360)

If a game was a part of a series, I chose to pick only one game from it to keep this reply short and sweet. :)

BiggerBoo
06-06-2010, 05:28 PM
Actually I should mention Fallout 3 as well.... I must have sunk 60 hours into that game in a week.

It's funny how it just flies by with that series, isn't it?

Oldskool
06-06-2010, 05:28 PM
I'll have to second Phantasy Star IV. Has one of the best storylines of any game I've ever played. And the play mechanics are just awesome.

mobiusclimber
06-06-2010, 05:34 PM
If you want to talk about less useful abilities. Why not talk about Mog's Dance, which is really good, but you have a high chance of it not working and when it does not allowed to choose the abilities. Cyan's SwdTech is useful for Dispatch(level 1,) Retort(level 2,) or a Retort glitch. Locke's Steal is worthless as there's literally nothing in the game worth stealing until very late in the game, and by then you don't need it. Relm's Sketch is garbage. So yeah. Tools is definitely a skill that's nice to have in comparison to other abilities.

Relm's sketch is useful if you're playing the game on the SNES cartridge b/c using it in combination w/ Gau's ability allows for some easy game glitching (as does using it on the dinosaurs in one very small forest late in the game).

I will say that the special abilities seems to be more about providing some added fun to the game than they really are about dealing damage. If you want to play a game w/ useful abilities, check out Breath of Fire 2. Every character has two special abilities, one used in battle and one used out of it. And while some are more useful than others, they all do get used and many of them are just flat-out awesome.

jdc
06-06-2010, 07:07 PM
Coming to the party late, but I spent a very long time absorbed in the world of Final Fantasy 10 when it was released. I loved everything about it and still do.

Voliko
06-07-2010, 12:03 AM
Argh! how could I have forgotten about Phantasy Star IV!? The storyline in that game is top-notch. the entire story development of the game really drew me in, especially as the game progressed and its scope continued to widen.

Eyedunno
06-07-2010, 12:13 AM
Cyan was writing letters to the girl. Edgar found a group of thieves who escaped from Figaro and used the name Gerad for them to lead him back there.
Oh, you're right. I mixed those two up.


It's definitely a lot more realistic than your idea of each character deciding to take on Kefka by themselves.
How is that my idea?

My idea is simply not to have the pace of the storyline slacken so much in the WoR.

And yeah, what you've said supports my previous thesis that most of the abilities (especially among the ones that were new to FFVI) suck.

diskoboy
06-07-2010, 12:28 AM
-The first 3 Phantasy Stars.
-Phantasy Star Online (DC version only.... The NGC and Xbox versions didn't feel right.)
-Fallout 3
-Demon's Souls.

What can I say... I like action RPG's.

pseudonym
06-07-2010, 12:41 AM
Morrowind/Oblivion - sunk about 100 hours into these games over the years.
Suikoden 1/2
WoW - Played steadily for about a year and I quit after that.
FF 3/5

There is a lesser tier below these games that I enjoyed but never got into the as deeply as the ones above.

Ed Oscuro
06-07-2010, 01:04 AM
Aw hell, I thought this was gonna be a trollfest opportunity...then I see Diskoboy and psuedonym chose two games I respect pretty highly as their first choices (Morrowind was my first thought coming into the thread, and PSO is pretty decent, even having just played it offline! That said, the GC version seemed fine to me.)

Aussie2B
06-07-2010, 01:19 AM
Anyone who says this isn't playing the game right. Chrono Cross has a plethora of sidequests, almost everyone is developed if you just go out there and do them!

I did all of the sidequests and I still feel that most of them have pretty flat, one-note personalities, if you can even say that half of them have genuine personality. There's generally not much to them besides their looks/species/profession and the way they talk. But the character art itself is awesome at least.

Chainsaw_Charlie
06-07-2010, 07:28 PM
I can play

Chrono Trigger
Final Fantasy 3/6
Persona 3,4

over and over again