2D franchises ruined by 3D sequels [Archive] - Page 2

Rob2600

06-29-2010, 01:41 PM

Dire 51

06-29-2010, 01:43 PM

That's pretty cool that you are working with Namco on that, how did you fall into that?
After I posted the news on West Mansion about the new game in 2008, they contacted me and we've been working together ever since. The lack of Splatterhouse fansites out there really helped me out in that case.

Oldskool

06-29-2010, 02:10 PM

Dear Oldskool:

Conker's Pocket Tales is way better than Conker's Bad Fur Day because it's in 2D, right?

Perfect Dark on the Game Boy Color is way better than Perfect Dark on the N64 because it's in 2D, right?

Raiders of the Lost Ark on the Atari 2600 is way better than Indiana Jones and the Infernal Machine on the N64 because it's in 2D, right?

Empire Strikes Back on the Atari 2600 is way better than Rogue Squadron II on the GameCube because it's in 2D, right?

Come on now, lets get serious. No need to jump on the "let's bash Oldskool's opinion" bandwagon.

I have yet to play Conker so no comment. I have only played the N64 version of Perfect Dark, but I would imagine that it's better. I have never played neither Raiders of the Lost Ark or Infernal machine so no comment. I have played Empire Strikes Back on the 2600, and the first Rogue Squadron, and I'd have to say Rogue Squadron is a lot better.

Why can't I have an opinion without everyone bashing it? Am I bashing everyone else's opinions? That's just acting childish.

Rob2600

06-29-2010, 02:40 PM

Why can't I have an opinion without everyone bashing it?

There's a difference between having an opinion and stating things like:

"Basically if it existed then, and has turned 3D - then it's been ruined."

"Prince of Persia, Garbage. It's all just a bunch of garbage."

"Punch Out, well I just threw that up on the list to illicit a response, I have actually yet to play it"

You purposely wanted to elicit a response. Now that you got one, you're complaining.

tom

06-29-2010, 03:48 PM

Oldskool

06-29-2010, 04:39 PM

There's a difference between having an opinion and stating things like:

"Basically if it existed then, and has turned 3D - then it's been ruined."

"Prince of Persia, Garbage. It's all just a bunch of garbage."

"Punch Out, well I just threw that up on the list to illicit a response, I have actually yet to play it"

You purposely wanted to elicit a response. Now that you got one, you're complaining.

If it existed then, then it's been ruined - well pretty much 75 percent of the time that's actually true.

Prince of Persia, it was garbage. I was not impressed at all. Maybe if they changed the title of the game it might have been a different story. But it didn't represent the original at all to me.

Punch Out - yeah I admit I have yet to play it, and I did put it up to illicit a response. But I'm really not complaining about anything, I don't think - except that you all are jocking my opinion that I have every right to have.

I wish someone could understand me. I don't think I am the only one that feels this way. The the majority of 3D games suck compared to their 2D counterparts - plain and simple. I didn't say ALL of them. I said the majority. Like I mentioned before, I am an old school gamer, I grew up on 8 bit and 16 bit so of course I am going to have a bias towards it. I didn't have this bias by choice, it just happens to be that way. I look at the new 3D games out and they really just don't impress me at all. And the few hundred that I've played didn't help either. Maybe one day they'll impress me.

I don't recall ever saying that I hate 3D. I just recall saying that I prefer 2D and that usually the 3D versions end up being junk.

If you all are so pro 3D and anti retro then why are you even here? I do recall there being PS3, 360, and Wii forums.

RoyVegas

06-29-2010, 04:50 PM

I gotta quote myself because man I hit the nail on the head with OldSkool, it's clear he has a retro bias like none other.

We don't respect your opinion because it comes off as "fanboyish" with respect to console generation, biased toward retro.

What's wrong with being retro biased? When home gaming was hitting the public, it was fresh and new. Every game you found was a new idea with things you had never seen before. Now a days it just seems like a bunch of old recycled games with new graphics. Now I can't honestly look at any of the comparisons made between games in this thread and say if the 2D or 3D was better. What I can say is that the innovative ideas of the past just stuck with me.

I own a 360, Wii and a PS3 and they rarely see any play from me. I'd say I play one of them maybe once every few months (if that). The games just don't have as much appeal or challenge as the old ones did. Last night I was watching my son play Call of Duty #453 (ok 6 I think it really is). He gets shot like 15 times and doesn't die. I mean really WTF is that? What happened to you get hit once and your dead? I like to tease my kids telling them how easy these new games seem to be and tell them to try some of my old Turbografx games. All they do is get frustrated and give up after a few fast deaths.

After all this is the Classic Gaming section of the forum. I really can't believe people who are biased to the classics post here!

Oldskool

06-29-2010, 04:59 PM

You mean Flashback, not Out of this World

No he means Fade to Black. It was a DOS based game very similar in graphics/gameplay/style to Flashback/Out of this World, but it was not very good. I remember I used to have that game, and I wanted to like it, but could never really get into it.

That game was crap.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7kzKG4-kxI

Oldskool

06-29-2010, 05:00 PM

Um, pretty much all of them :) Except for Mario of course.

How come you guys are not jocking him?

Oldskool

06-29-2010, 05:01 PM

3D is not just all the rage. 3D is the foreseeable future. It almost makes sense, until you remember how pissed off you were when you read that the sequel to one of your favorite 2D games was in full 3D.

Classic franchises have been ruined by this change-over, all too common, both because the developers wanted sales and figured no one buys 2D games anymore, or because they simply wanted to "modernize" their franchise, forcing a style of game play to work in a 3D environment. Here, they are basically forcing a square peg into a round hole, or else completely changing the game play, alienating the core audience that supported their franchise in the first place.

I as many game players, remember that watershed moment of going to pick up the sequel of my favorite game and getting pissed off at realizing beautiful 2D rendered graphics had been replaced by overly used 3D polygons...

Or even the original poster?

RoyVegas

06-29-2010, 05:11 PM

Triple post!!! :eek 2:

pepharytheworm

06-29-2010, 06:04 PM

No he means Fade to Black. It was a DOS based game very similar in graphics/gameplay/style to Flashback/Out of this World, but it was not very good. I remember I used to have that game, and I wanted to like it, but could never really get into it.

That game was crap.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7kzKG4-kxI

Read the first post again. The OP wrote:

Out of This World - Fade to Black

He was correcting the out of this world part. What did you think he meant?

By the way people are picking on you more because, you admit bias. Saying you don't like 3D because its not 2D and thats the best because I grew up on it, is not a real good reason. It s like when you parents say "no" and you ask why and they say, "because I said so". Maybe if you point out the aspects you don't like about the transition to 3D.

I personally think there is room for both, I like 2D and 3D depending on the game. Reading the original question you could say no 3D sequels ruined 2D franchises, because those original 2D games will always be fun, even if a crappy 3D sequel comes out.

vrikkgwj

06-29-2010, 06:18 PM

Metroid. Castlevania. Both of them have amazing 2D games, but I couldn't get into the 3D ones at all (some could say that the Castlevania 3D games have always been bad).

Push Upstairs

06-29-2010, 08:15 PM

I've always felt that 2D games should get 2D (or 2.5D) sequels.
I don't have anything against 3D games, but what's the point of taking a classic 2D game, stripping it of everything that defines it, and slapping it into a 3D engine?
Just come up with a new property instead of running a classic one into the ground.

Games that were conceived with 3D in mind are fine (unless the camera sucks)

GTA is an exception as I think the 3D games in the series are far better, but that is a concept that is better suited for a 3D world.

And racing games are better in 3D.

And "Gauntlet: Legends/Dark Legacy" was a fine 3D transition, but that didn't really stray far from the original gameplay much (but it is funnier).

Mario 64 is a great game, but in no way is it a sequel to SMB4/SMW. It's a 3D spinoff that's great in its own right, but lacks almost everything that made SMB so endearing.

Aside from what you said, the problem I have with Mario 64 is that there are games that came after it that did what it did, only far better, and without having that "2D to 3D" baggage. Nintendo never followed it up with something that said "We started this, and now we will show you how you are supposed to do it well."

Arkhan

06-29-2010, 11:01 PM

Aussie2B

06-29-2010, 11:32 PM

That didn't make any sense. Why would I automatically assume or say that the game sucks JUST because I found out that it's 3D? What, you don't think I don't give it a chance? Of course I am going to play a game for a while, or even a long while - then base my opinion of it.

Uh, but you already posted a list of games that "ruined" their franchises consisting of games that you've admitted to never playing and other games that aren't even out yet at all. That's the only thing that doesn't make sense in this topic, and that's why people are giving you a hard time.

Oldskool

06-30-2010, 01:57 AM

OK, I can understand that. But I also stated that even though I have not played them or they are not out yet, that if history has taught us anything - it's that it's not going to be as good or have the same feel that the original did. That's all that I am saying. That I "expect" it to be like the others. If it's not and it blows the others away then great!

exit

06-30-2010, 02:31 AM

I stopped reading when I saw a list stating that the Mario, Zelda, Metroid and Mega Man 3D games (as well as other games that have not even been released) ruined each of the series.

I call BS and vote for this thread to be deleted and then thrown into a volcano.

PapaStu

06-30-2010, 02:36 AM

But how can history teach YOU something when you don't play them. So what if critics don't like a game, its YOUR take that means something, and by drawing a line in the sand (in this case 3d games are all pale comparisons of their 2D counterparts) you're not really able to lay critique down on them.

Notice that many are saying they don't like Mario 64, no one in here is jumping down their throats, its their opinion, but when you drop a list including games you've not played (as well as ones that arn't out) you get a bit more attention drawn your way.

People say that all movie themed games are garbage and often times many are, but that doesn't take away from the good games or the ones that you may like that others don't for whatever reason.

Kiddo

06-30-2010, 04:50 AM

I find it rather saddening that this thread doesn't seem to have as well-thought a gist of opinions as some article on a more general, non-gaming specific site. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/PolygonCeiling)

Oldskool; passing aside all the other comments for now, I've played Punch-Out on the Wii and the gameplay is nearly identical to the NES Game's. If you can seriously say that 3D ruined it, then I would only be able to guess that you judge games entirely on their graphics, which IMHO is ridiculously shallow, regardless of whether you want 3D eye candy or 2D sprites.

Icarus Moonsight

06-30-2010, 08:01 AM

Troll hit the lotto, then lost the ticket.

Nintendo 3DS is going to make the VirtualBoy look as cool as a Vectrex seems compared to a Tiger LCD handheld of Daydreaming Davey. I base this on experience. I've never touched a 3DS... Don't ask stupid questions.

Cryomancer

06-30-2010, 10:16 AM

iF you pass off all new games as 3D shit that ruins everything forever without even playing them once, then you are exactly the same as 12 year olds with PS3s who say the NES sucks becuase they saw a youtube video of a game on it one time and it wasn't pretty enough.

Arkhan

06-30-2010, 06:59 PM

Ill play any game to see if its good.

I can safely say I hated Mario 64, and all of the 3D zelda games.

They're dopey. Twilight Princess was an easy joke with lame gameplay elements. The 2D games continue to impress.

and then Metroid.

Prime was lame. I didn't like that space jump was no longer infinite. Screw attack was no longer existant. You no longer somersault while jumping. You are more "immersed" but at the same time at a disadvantage because of clumsy controls....

Prime 2 was... yeah. like a MP Sidequest

and 3 took the "immersion" to a new fail. Nothing says immersion like having to aim your arm at the TV for extended sessions so you can continue to look where you need to.

It's also where you shoot. So by that alone, Samus has a cannon strapped to her face.

It seems like Nintendo sucks at going to 3D.

Mega Man Legends was fine. I liked that game alot. It kept the action, had some exploration. The RPG elements were neat, and the story was corny, but was still fun.

It all depends who did it I guess.

and I thought of something funny, Spyro in 2D sucked. Some games are just meant to stay in their original perspective I guess.

Rob2600

06-30-2010, 07:28 PM

I hated Mario 64, and all of the 3D zelda games.

Metroid Prime was lame.

Mega Man Legends was fine.

So Super Mario 64, Ocarina of Time, and Metroid Prime were horrible, but Mega Man Legends was awesome. Thanks for the good laugh!

kupomogli

06-30-2010, 07:40 PM

So Super Mario 64 and Metroid Prime were horrible, but Mega Man Legends was awesome? Nothing but fact here.

Fixed.

Ocarina of Time and Wind Waker are good. Only slightly worse than the 2d Zelda games. Majora's Mask on the other hand. What a piece of shit.

buzz_n64

06-30-2010, 07:48 PM

So Mega Man Legends and Metroid Prime were horrible, but Super Mario 64 was awesome. Thanks for the truth!

Now it's fixed. :)

NE146

06-30-2010, 09:08 PM

Sure I like the 3D Zeldas but I REALLY would prefer a new 3/4 perspective Zelda ala LTTP/Links Awakening/4-Swords. The last one was Minish Cap and that was another sub-par Capcom offering. And of course GC 4-Swords was a total tease :(

I would love to see a new Nintendo-developed 3/4 version on the 3DS but alas I doubt that will ever happen.. it'll be Zelda 64 and then probably another 3D one.

Arkhan

06-30-2010, 10:39 PM

So Super Mario 64, Ocarina of Time, and Metroid Prime were horrible, but Mega Man Legends was awesome. Thanks for the good laugh!

Mario 64 was boring and clumsy. The way I prefer to play Mario (like a sonic game) wasn't really possible, and I got tired of it. Sonic Adventure kept the fast paced crap when it transitioned to 3D. Before that, Crash Bandicoot, etc. on playstation provided faster paced platforming like I hoped Mario would have had. I'm one of those people that plays Mario games with the dash button held down most of the time.

Metroid Prime lost all of the Metroid charm. It wasn't awful, but it wasn't worth waiting for like a decade after Super Metroid to get that game. The new metroid coming out will probably finally fix things. Not having infinispacejump, and screw attack alone made it a bummer. Cheesy FPS platform jumps made it worse. Then you just auto-lock onto enemies, smash the button in, and win. Sleepy time.

Ocarina of Time always sucked. Ever since the day we all got the stupid game and put it in our N64s. You've got the fairy going HEY LISTEN, it spoon feeds you what to do, you're a whiney mongoloid half the time, and a majority of the dungeons are uninspiring and boring. Zelda has gotten worse since. Wind Waker might have been alright if it wasn't cel-shaded and obnoxious looking.... Majora is a no-go, and Twilight Princess may be the easiest Zelda game ever made. I had to restart the game and die once just to see what dying looked like, because I beat it without dying.

I did like some of the boss battles though. It's the best of the 3D zeldas, but its too goddamn easy.

Mega Man legends had cartoony action, funny characters, smooth gameplay (sometimes the camera sucked, but what else is new), and pretty unique power ups. Those skates were neat.

and it pretty successfully added RPG elements to an action game.

Aussie2B

07-01-2010, 12:36 AM

In terms of retaining what was established by prior titles, Sonic Adventure and Mega Man Legends were pretty big failures (that's not to say they were even aiming for that goal, though). I mean, they basically give it away right in the titles with key words like "Adventure" and "Legends". Those words just about always mean that the game in question is leaning more towards the adventure/RPG end of the spectrum rather than the straight action through and through of the earlier Mega Man and Sonic games. In Legends case, though, they were basically forced to develop the game by Sony, and they never intended for it to be a part of the main or X series. There's no argument to be made in favor or against the idea that it ruined anything.

With Sonic Adventure, well, I think it was a bit of a mistake myself. I think it's dumb that there's a whole city full of people to talk to and such and that you have to locate the stages. And even when you get to a legitimate action stage, there's not much "action". Just wide expanses to hold up through as you look at the fancy-shmancy Dreamcast graphics, running past all enemies and hazards with ease if you please. I think Sega realized they took the "adventure" aspect way too far, so that's why SA2 is a much more structured game (although the Knuckles and Rouge stages are bloody awful).

j_factor

07-02-2010, 12:06 AM

I thought Mega Man Legends was great, and I'm not even a Mega Man fan. But when someone says Mega Man sucked in 3D I don't think of Legends, I think of X7, which was garbage.

Eyedunno

07-02-2010, 12:52 AM

My initial impressions of Super Mario 64 and Final Fantasy VII when they came out were that they were horribly ugly games (polygon counts just weren't high enough to render humanoid characters halfway decently) and I they totally didn't interest me. It took me 8 or 9 years to finally give them a decent chance, and now I think they're among the best games in their respective franchises.

Nobody has mentioned Worms yet (unless I missed it, which is very possible). There's a series where 3D was enough of a failure that the newer games in the series are all 2D! If only that would happen more often!

Famidrive-16

07-02-2010, 03:43 AM

I liked the whole "open world" aspect of SA, you could go and fuck around in all sorts of areas in the game. Having it change depending on which character you used was also kind of cool. I always wanted a "true" sequel (SA2 was okay but it had a bunch of changes from the first) but then I got Sonic 06, so I can see why so many people didn't like Adventure.

I'm literally the only person in the world who enjoyed Worms 3D, I'm sure of it.

tom

07-02-2010, 03:54 AM

It seems like Nintendo sucks at going to 3D.

.

And that is very true

Arkhan

07-02-2010, 11:48 AM

With Sonic Adventure, well, I think it was a bit of a mistake myself. I think it's dumb that there's a whole city full of people to talk to and such and that you have to locate the stages. And even when you get to a legitimate action stage, there's not much "action". Just wide expanses to hold up through as you look at the fancy-shmancy Dreamcast graphics, running past all enemies and hazards with ease if you please. I think Sega realized they took the "adventure" aspect way too far, so that's why SA2 is a much more structured game (although the Knuckles and Rouge stages are bloody awful).

Sonic Adventure was still a pretty solid launch-Dreamcast game. The PS2 launch games weren't so hot, lol.

pepharytheworm

07-02-2010, 11:56 AM

I don't remeber anyone saying it but if I missed it sorry. Pac-Man, is not even close to the same game 3D, Mario at least has some semblence to other Mario titles. The Pac-Man World games aren't really terrible but compared to the originals they can't compare. Granted he did start wanning before 3D with adventure and platform games.

PapaStu

07-02-2010, 12:23 PM

and I thought of something funny, Spyro in 2D sucked. Some games are just meant to stay in their original perspective I guess.

WUT?!?

When has Spyro EVER been in 2D? GBA? Even then those over the top still gave the semblance of 3D. Those were 2Dish only due to system limitations of the handheld they were on.

If you're referencing later titles that were cross platformed, thats again not a fair comparison as system limitations come into play. I'd not expect a perfect port of a 360 title on my DS.

Tsar

07-03-2010, 02:40 PM

I don't know if any one mentioned heroes of might and magic series kinda turned to garbage when it hit 3d. I.E Heroes 5. :deadhorse:

parker311

07-04-2010, 03:14 PM

As a Jag owner, I know this, Just liked the CD music on PSX better.

I hate to burst bubbles here, but Rayman on the Playstation was a port, as was the Saturn release which was superior even to the Playstation version. In order to play the original Rayman with all of the animation frames and all of the parallax scrolling, you need to play it on the Jaguar, the system the game was developed on originally. You all might not like that this is true, but it is. Rayman was a Jaguar game from the beginning, period.

parker311

07-04-2010, 03:20 PM

Nice . . . . . . wait . . . no you're not getting the point. The point is diversity.

The important thing is to make sequels exactly like the original, because new things are scary and I don't like things that are different.

--Zero

parker311

07-04-2010, 03:25 PM

Castlevania on N64 was decent, true.

Metroid Prime was a good.

Megaman Legends though, was very good for its time and still plays well actually.

Except most of these games were good in 3d.

For Mega Man it was 2d titles that ruined the series. Zero 2, 3, 4, and the EXE series. Although that's opinion as the EXE series has a pretty big fanbase seeing how they've come out with around 10 games for it.