Top 50 Role Playing Games (RPG) of All Time

[theaveng]

(This topic was erased by the crash, so I'm rescuing it from oblivion.)

This is a cooperative effort. Key word: "Cooperative" Give me your input please. If there's a game that does not belong... or a game that needs to be added... let me know, and I'll modify the Top list.

(alphabetical order)

AD&D Forgotten Realms 2: Curse of the Azure Bonds (C=64/PC)
Anarchy Online (PC)
Asheron's Call (PC)
Baldur's Gate 2 (PC)
Bard's Tale 2 (C=64/PC)
Beyond Oasis (Genesis)
Chrono Trigger (S-NES)
Dark Age Of Camelot (PC)
Darklands (PC)
Deus Ex (C=64/PC)
Dragon Warrior 4 (NES/S-NES)
Dragon Wars (C=64/PC)
Dungeon Master (S-NES/PC)
Eye of the Beholder (S-NES/PC)
Fallout (PC)
Final Fantasy 3 (S-NES) aka Final Fantasy 6 (PS1)
Fire Emblem (NES)
Golden Axe Warrior (Sega Master System)
Golden Sun (Gameboy Advance)
Knights of Legend (C=64)
Knights of Xentar (PC)
LandStalker (Genesis)
Legacy of the Ancients (C=64)
Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past (S-NES)
Libertation: Captive 2 (Amiga)
Lunar 2: Eternal Blue (PS1)
Might and Magic 2: Gates to Another World (C=64/PC)
Miracle Warriors (Sega Master System)
Morrowind (PC, Xbox)
Panzer Dragoon Saga (Saturn)
Phantasie 3 (C=64/PC)
Phantasy Star 2 (Genesis)
Planescape: Torment (PC)
Questron 1 (C=64)
Secret of Mana (S-NES)
Shining Force 2 (Genesis)
Skies of Arcadia (DC)
Suikoden 2 (PS1)
Super Mario RPG (S-NES)
Sword of Vermilion (Genesis)
Temple of Apshai Trilogy (C=64/PC)
Times of Lore (C=64)
Ultima 4 (C=64/PC)
Vagrant Story (PS1)
Valkyrie Profile (PS1)
Warriors of the Eternal Sun (Genesis)
Wasteland (C=64/PC)
Wizardry 1: Proving Grounds of the Mad Overlord (C=64/PC)
Wizards Crown (Apple 2)
Xenogears (PS1)

[buttasuperb]

no.

[Keir]

Please change Bard's Tale 2 to Bard's Tale. Please?

[Sylentwulf]

I REALLY think this deserves to be 2 lists. Consoles, and computers (YES, the C-64 is a computer)

They're two totally different categories as far as I'm concerned, maybe a top 25 of each or something.

[theaveng]

Sorry guys. This topic is CLOSED. The moderators turned off editing so the original list can't be changed.

Sylentwulf: I disagree. A console like Playstation2 *is* a computer minus the keyboard. And the PS2 is far more powerful than the C=64 ever was. So why separate them? There's no reason too.

[digitalpress]

WTF? Who says the topic is CLOSED?

In case you hadn't noticed, I do update these things quite regularly. Anyone can start one of these lists off but if they go to the Archive forum I need to manage them since they're tied into other parts of the DP website.

We now return to our regularly scheduled debate!

[theaveng]

The person who started the thread should manage them.

Troy

[theaveng]

Legend of Zelda's not really an RPG is it? I recommend deleting it and replacing it with Paper Mario.

[digitalpress]

Legend of Zelda isn't a role-playing game?

Uh oh.

[mauigamer]

I agree with Sylent on the C64 issue. Using your argument any RPG on a Pentium 2 or lower computer would be included too because the Xbox is faster and superior to any Pentium 2. I also definitly believe that Zelda is a RPG. I would include the first Zelda and Ocarina to the list.

[digdug]

Get Rid of something but you MUST have EVERQUEST on there, with over 400,000 people playing obviously it is one of the best RPG's EVER!!!


Chris

[NvrMore]

Legend of Zelda's not really an RPG is it? I recommend deleting it and replacing it with Paper Mario.

1. WTF! :crazyeyes:

2. Paper Mario doesn't even come close to Zelda 3

3. WTF!! :bad-words:

Please!.. DP, tell me you're in control of this list now

[theaveng]

When I created this list, I wanted it to include ALL rpgs... including ones for computers like Commodore=64 or 80's IBM PCs. And yes, modern computers too. I simply don't see any reason to separate the C=64 Bard's Tale from the PS1 Lunar.



Question: Is Baldur's Gate 2 the PC version (Tower of Bhaal) or the PS2 version (Dark Alliance)? I've been told the PC version is superior, but never played either one of them.

[asharru]

[this post edited by admin]

PLEASE READ THE RULES.

[ashbourn]

zelda is a adventure game a RPG u lvl up and in zelda u do not u know u get more hearts but it not the same thing.

[asharru]

http://www.tribalwar.com/forums/images/smilies/jester.gif

[NvrMore]

An RPG is not simply about statistics and leveling up, that is only one style of RPG. The RPG genre consists of numerous styles, just because a game does not conform to the typical statistical, turn-based style adopted by Square doesn't mean it is not a RPG.

Even Square's RPG don't always conform to the typical statistical turn based formula, however many of those games didn't make it over here because of various reasons including that particular misconception.

Zelda is what is known as an action-RPG, the standard FF series are turn-based RPGs (yes, they are still that genre despite Square's attempts to remove the turn based element). There are also strategy-RPGs, puzzle RPG's and a number or other styles which aren't commonly seen outside of Japan (Damn them for keeping all the good stuff to themselves).

They are all RPG's, however certain misguided people insist on persuing the notion that if it isn't of the standard statistical, turn-based formula then is isn't an RPG. They're very wrong, they just need to play a few games made by people other than Square.

Yes, Zelda is most definately an RPG.

[NvrMore]

Damn the edit's off :mad:

Just read through that last paragraph and I noticed that it may come across the wrong way :oops: so I'd just like to make the point that it wasn't having a go at you ashbourn, it was just a note on a misconception many people carry which they misguidedly insist is fact.

It wasn't meant to offend, just in case it comes across that way, I just can't edit the damn thing to fix it.

[theaveng]

The reason I asked, "Zelda not really a RPG is it?" was because of this message from psxnation.com:
ELRIC
"I personally don't consider the Zelda games, great as they are to be RPGS. Therefore they can be stricken from the list immediately. They don't have stats, levels, or any of the other things that make an RPG an RPG. They are action games where you power up you character, and no more an RPG than Devil May Cry or the Soul Reaver games."

Sounded convincing to me.



BTW, is Link to the Past really the best Zelda game? I figured Ocarina of Time would be better liked.

[NvrMore]

Contrary to ELRIC's argument, an RPG does not have to have stats, levels or turn based actions. Again that is only one of styles within the RPG genre and sadly one which some have come to believe is the only possible style that an RPG can take.

Basically it's like saying Mario cart, F-zero, Wipeout etc. aren't racing games because they don't involve gear shifts, fuel consideration and they allow weaponry.
Or that Mario World and Mario 3 aren't platform games because they allow the player to explore around a world (to and extent) and travel between levels via said map whereas most other platform games just throw you from one level to the next.
Or that Smash TV isn't a Shmup because it doesn't involve a spaceship or constantly scrolling levels like is commonly percieved when regarding the genre.

etc.

The RPG genre is not so limited as to only include the single style and type of RPG employed by Square, even Square do not restrict themselves solely to that style and have made numerous attempts to move away from it e.g. Secret of Mana employed a action-rpg approach but retained the experience based power up system (Levels are just permanent power ups, as are hearts in Zelda they're just earned and represented in slightly different ways).

Notably there are just as many, if not more RPG's which are not of the turn-based style, it's simply that some people have become so trapped in a single vision of what a genre is because they have a mostly limited experience covering only one particular style and as such cannot look beyond that.

And on the other note..

IMO Zelda 3 is by far the best of the Zelda series. I loved OOT, but it just wasn't up to the same standard. Like any RPG it comes down to personal taste but for the most part I've found that most people prefer Zelda 3 to OOT.

[digitalpress]

Wow. Brilliantly stated, NvrMore. I'm quite impressed.

[NvrMore]

Thank you :D

..I'm actually surprised it made sense considering I wrote it at 2.00 am :morning:

[theaveng]

So, what's a good definition of RPG? Why is Zelda a RPG, and 2600's Adventure or text-based The Pawn not?

Troy

=====
PAPER MARIO SALE
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1769774893

[Lady Jaye]

And what about Ogre Tactics/Final Fantasy Tactics/Ogre Battle? These are strategic (or tactical) RPGs, but RPGs nonetheless. At least one of these titles (either Ogre Tactics or FF Tactics) should be in the list.

What constitutes a RPG? Well, there has to be the following elements:
1. Exploration (moving in a usually vast world). That doesn't mean that the game is necessarily linear or not

2. A mission with precise goals (ie. get the key from one boss to open the door to the next dungeon)

3. Any concept of leveling up, either through experience points or through powerups (such as the hearts in Zelda)

4. Equipment upgrades (buying or finding offensive and defensive equipment)

5. Turn-based fights or a similar type of system (that mostly applies to traditional RPGs). DOES NOT APPLY TO THE ZELDA SERIES.

I agree with people who consider the Zelda series as being adventure RPGs, although The Adventure of Link was a closer hybrid of the genre than the other games in the series.

[ashbourn]

then u get into the issue is pacman a roleplaying game because u take the role of a character to eat dots and run from monsters, and supermariop because u play the role of mario jumping on guys heads or shooting them with fireballs, u can even go as far as dr mario or tetris u take the role as the person trying to slove a puzzle. It gets to a point where it becomes to offen uses and has no meaning. I call a rpg a game where u lvl and play out a adventure it does not have to be turn bases i know of some real time rpgs where u lvl as u kill stuff, the best was to look at the meaning is to go back to the old D&D days u play the role of a character or character that get more powerful as they go along in a adventure.

[ubersaurus]

I think Dragon Warrior 3 would be a better choice then 4...it's always been more engrossing, at least to me.

[NvrMore]

Lady Jaye brings up some good examples of another style of RPG (strategy), which again are RPG's despite their differences from both the action-RPG (Zelda) and turn-based (FF) styles.

@ashbourn: Don't let the method of powering-up guide your definition of an RPG.

Leveling up is simply a permanent power-up, it just goes by a different name, but it is nontheless just a power-up, as are the hearts in Zelda which like levels must be earned through beating enemies and progressing your character's abilities, it's just a different method of implementation.

As I have already mentioned RPG's are not even always restricted to following a specific style and attempts have been made to mix elements of the various styles, e.g. the Seiken Dentensu games (Secret of Mana, Seiken Dentensu 3), Shadowrun etc.implemented the statistical visualisation method with the action-RPG style of gameplay.

Generally, in all RPG's regardless of style the characters grow stronger as the game progresses, this applies to action-RPG's like zelda too. It is again simply a matter of the implementation of how the character's development is represented to the player, statistics being just one (of many) method of visualisation and one which is commonly employed in turn-based RPG's, whereas action-RPG's usually take a more capability based approach with a certain amount of physical characteristic development thrown in (health and magic increase being the most commonly used).

@theavenge: I've never played either of those games to which you wish to compare Zelda.

What's the definition of an RPG?, there is no one specific definition of and RPG, that's like trying to say this style is right and this one isn't because they are different from each other. There are only specific elements which constitute the basis of an RPG, which generally go hand in hand with each other such as:

The player takes on the role of a character(s) who develops through their progression in the game who can/must find and/or buy the items and/or equipment which they use.
Set within a game world which presents the player the freedom to explore and persue other aspects of the game world not not neccessarily relating to the main objective and consisting of numerous NPC's acting in both aggressive and non-aggressive roles with whom the player frequently interacts as the an actual character of that world.

[Nature Boy]

The biggest problem we have today is in restricting *any* game into a specific genre. It's easier with respect to racing games perhaps, but becomes much murkier when you get into RPGs - if only because a lot of games today combine several styles.

Having said that I enjoy the debate anyway :)

So. If you were to go to ebworld.com to preorder the new Gamecube Zelda, would you be more likely to visit their 'adventure' link or their 'RPG' link? For me it's the former. For you it might be the latter. If it's only in one of those sections then you can be reasonably certain that EB has decided it's not worth putting it into the other section because so few purchasers think of it that way. If it's in both then it's *definitely* one of those games that spans genres.

I personally associate the genre of RPG with my 'Dungeons and Dragons' days. If it feels like I'm playing D&D but I'm using the computer to be my dungeon master, then I'm playing an RPG. Back in the day it was Warriors of Ras. Today it's Final Fantasy (I do play others but have to admit I'm a huge FF fan). With Zelda I don't get that feeling. When I'm playing Zelda I'm playing a genre I consider to be my favourite - adventure (Ico being another example of this genre).

Having said that I have to admit NvrMore makes a good case. Especially when he points out that Square has a lot of power when it comes to what people consider RPGs to be. But it wasn't a good enough case to change my mind.

As far as my favourite Zelda game goes: Link to the Past definitely takes the cake. I loved OoT and MM but LTHP is still the king of the hill (it's my favourite game of any genre/system/series).

[theaveng]

1. Exploration ...
2. A mission with precise goals ...
3. Any concept of leveling up...
4. Equipment upgrades...


So in theory The Pawn or Zork could be RPGs. All that they are missing is the character leveling up.
Troy

=====
PAPER MARIO SALE
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1769774893

[NvrMore]

Good post Nature Boy.

I agree about restricting games to Genre's, especially being that many Genre's (not just RPG) are currently in a state of experimentation / evolution, indeed as you said meaning that many should possibly be placed in more than one category.

Regarding checking the genre of a game via the category a shop places it in.. that's not really too good an idea. Whereas I agree the choice of game category for the shop may represent what they think most people will expect it to be, that doesn't actually mean it's right. For example, I've seen shops place games like C&C, Mario Cart and Tekken under simulation and even MK3 listed under sports :shock:

Interestingly enough though, your mention of relating to the D&D rpg's brings up the point again that people's perception of what fits into a particular genre is largely influenced by what and how much they have actually experienced of a game Genre and indeed what example of that Genre they were introduced to first and/or most frequently.

[Nature Boy]

The online idea can defintely be dangerous.

I thought I'd try an experiment. And not with a retailer at first, with gamerankings.com

I did a search for N64 games under their category "RPG - All" and another search under "Adventure - All"

The former returned Majora's Mask. The latter returned Ocarina of Time.

That sound you just heard was me dropping my Vanilla Coke in amusment and astonishment.

I also did a search on FutureShop.com (but for PS2 games, since they don't carry N64 stuff anymore).

RPG:
Baldur's Gate Dark Alliance
Dark Cloud
Final Fantasy X
Grandia 2

ADVENTURE
Batman Vengeance
Crash Bandicoot: The Wrath of Cortex
Drakan 2
Grand Theft Auto 3
Ico
Jak & Daxter
Lilo & Stitch: Experiment 626
Maximo - Ghost To Glory
Metal Gear Solid 2
Okage Shadow King

I own 3 of the RPGs (not Drakan), and four from Adventure (GTA 3, Ico, Jak & Daxter, MGS2). From what I've seen of Okage I'd've thought it would've been under RPG. Ico is probably what I'd call the definitive Adventure game of the bunch. The others are hybrids (Dark Cloud probably belongs more down here than under RPG IMO).

Their available categories are:

Action
Adventure
Family
Fighting
Racing
Role Playing
Simulation
Sports
Strategy

[Ruudos]

Blah, I actually hate the term 'RPG'.
Since Secret of Mana was released overhere, everygame that was mentioned as an adventure game (such as Zelda) became a RPG, well to the players anyway. This whole 'RPG' term just turned into a hype.

Super Mario World can also be called a RPG with the definitions I read.
You can explore the levels and there are power-ups (mushrooms, fire flowers, etc).

Hooray for the Adventure Game genre!

[klimatron8]

:o Yeah, um like what the holy hell is "Fire Emblem" for the NES? Where/when was that released -and where can i get it? Also Planescape-Torment#1 of all time. oh, and what about Ultima Underground or Ultima Vii part 2-Serpent Isle?

[hydr0x]

mh i dont think zelda 3 is an real rpg, a german game magazine (mega fun) called it an action-adventure when it came out, i think that fits very well, but that name is taken for games like tomb raider two, so you cant use it :( but its definitely not an real rpg, of course, it means role-playing --> playing a role, but that would also include adventure like monkey island and a lot other games, so you have to define rpg in an other way and i think that has to include stats/levels

but the list is missing games:

terranigma (snes), i know its pal, but its just one of the top games for snes, you just gotta list it

and i think might&magic 5 (pc) should be listed two

[Arrrhalomynn]

What DEFINATELY is an rpg is Morrowind.
please add it to the list somewhere. :) it's brilliant, I love it.

[NvrMore]

Whoa.. and the adventure / RPG debate springs back out of nowhere X_x LOL

I can certainly see where you're coming from hydr0x and I think Nature Boy, myself and some of the others pretty much already covered it, especially regarding the subject of trying to define via stats and how it doesn't hold because of chosen representation (graphical vs statistical.. in the end they're the same). Unfortunately the point of what a magazine called it, falls down at the same point that we hit with shops defining the genre (see Nature Boy's experiment). However your point did arouse my curiousity and I decided to check one of the old SNES mags I have (A solutions mag called Super XS) who referred to it as.. and RPG :/ as did a book which I own (I'll check some of the other mags I own out later).

Nontheless, if you haven't already it might be worth reading through the entire discussion, I think we covered the subject pretty well (but feel free to add more if you want).

(And yes, you're very right, Terranigma may not be an NTSC release but it's just too damn good to be left off the list.)

[NvrMore]

Whoa.. and the adventure / RPG debate springs back out of nowhere X_x LOL

I can certainly see where you're coming from hydr0x and I think Nature Boy, myself and some of the others pretty much already covered it, especially regarding the subject of trying to define via stats and how it doesn't hold because of chosen representation (graphical vs statistical.. in the end they're the same). Unfortunately the point of what a magazine called it, falls down at the same point that we hit with shops defining the genre (see Nature Boy's experiment). However your point did arouse my curiousity and I decided to check one of the old SNES mags I have (a solutions mag called Super XS) who referred to it as.. an RPG :/ as did a book which I own (I'll check some of the other mags I own out later).

Nontheless, if you haven't already it might be worth reading through the entire discussion, I think we covered the subject pretty well (but feel free to add more if you want).

(And yes, you're very right, Terranigma may not be an NTSC release but it's just too damn good to be left off the list.)

[NvrMore]

eep :o

Sorry about the wierd double post, I can't seem to edit my posts..

[hydr0x]

i read all your posts before, i just wanted to add what i said ;)

and my post was mainly about terranigma :P (i own 3 copies of it, all complete, in used shape, so if someone wants it, tell me)

[Chunky]

I just look at the list take notes, and completely ignore the PC games listed there. can this list get separated at all? maybe leave it at the top 25 console RPGs or make a new list.

[KokiriChild]

Firstly I'd like to say, this is my first post (woo-hoo)

Secondly I'd like to drag up the past on this whole Zelda: RPG or Not RPG

I'm a huge Zelda fan (just look at the user name) and so I may be slightly biased, but anyway, I've always classed Zelda series as an "Adventure RPG", and games such as Final Fantasy where you get much more involved ins tats, growth and development as just plain "RPG".

I believe the term Adventure-RPG suits Zelda, much in the same way Tomb Raide is (more often than not) billed as an Action-Adventure game, meaning it incorperates some elements of action, and some of adventure, in the same way Zelda incorperates some elements of adventure and some elements of RPG.

Whilst I was reading this debate I was thinking about a SNES game I own "Mystic Quest Legend" (aka "Final Fantasy: Mystic Quest" in NTSC countries). This is described on the box as an "Entry level RPG", so what makes this entry-level-rpg different from a game like Zelda? If it wasn't for Zelda I would never have liked Secret of Mana, and later on the FF series, so does this mean that there should be a seperate class for entry level RPGS, which would then split the "RPG" genre into "Adventure RPG, RPG, Entry Level RPG", then of course you have text-based games, which I guess you could also class under those three sub-sections of "RPG", then when you start throwing in other factors, like AD&D rules, would that make them Advanced RPG's, as you're more involved in the growth and stats than you would be at an entry level RPG? This list could go on and on.

The point I'm trying to make (which somewhere got lost between the second cup of coffee and the doughnut) is that the RPG genre is so vast, incorperating so many different styles and evolutions that it's impossible to put ANY game listed as an RPG into one class only, as each RPG is different in the way it works, FF uses the "defeat the boss get EXP" system, Zelda uses the "defeat the boss get an extra heart" system.

And in a closing line to possibly THE worst constructed piece of writing ever, I thought I'd turn to the dictionary for a definition of RPG:

Role Playing Game:A game in which players assume the roles of characters and act out fantastical adventures, the outcomes of which are partially determined by chance, as by the roll of dice.

- Goodnight.

[Kid Fenris]

I may not get much support for this idea, but could we restart this thing somewhere else? The current list is rushed and unrefined, it was managed by theaveng ('nuff said), and it got bogged down by debate over the true definition of an RPG.

Let's start over with "The Top Console RPGs" or something. This topic provided some interesting thoughts on what makes an RPG, but it's a terrible list.

[RetroYoungen]

I may not get much support for this idea, but could we restart this thing somewhere else? The current list is rushed and unrefined, it was managed by theaveng ('nuff said), and it got bogged down by debate over the true definition of an RPG.

Let's start over with "The Top Console RPGs" or something. This topic provided some interesting thoughts on what makes an RPG, but it's a terrible list.

I'll support that idea. But I'd like to say that a top 50 is a little much, and maybe I'm the only one thinking that. But a 25 or so would work better. I think 50 and above should be general "Best Gaming" lists, it's too large for just one genre, really.

[Griking]

I may not get much support for this idea, but could we restart this thing somewhere else? The current list is rushed and unrefined, it was managed by theaveng ('nuff said), and it got bogged down by debate over the true definition of an RPG.

Let's start over with "The Top Console RPGs" or something. This topic provided some interesting thoughts on what makes an RPG, but it's a terrible list.


I hate to stir things up again but I'm going to have to vent my frustration again about people who think that computer games shouldn't "count". What's so incredibly wrong about just saying that a game is a game is a game?

I'll say it again, any top list that doesn't enclude or allow computer games is a list that I can't take very seriously.

[Griking]

Oh, and make the following changes

Add
Might & Magic: Worlds of Xeen (PC)
Betrayal at Krondor (PC)
Ultima IV, V, and VII deserve to be on the list but I understand that they can't all be there.

Drop:
Times of Lore
Might & Magic II (3-5 are all better IMHO)

[Kid Fenris]

I hate to stir things up again but I'm going to have to vent my frustration again about people who think that computer games shouldn't "count". What's so incredibly wrong about just saying that a game is a game is a game?

I'll say it again, any top list that doesn't enclude or allow computer games is a list that I can't take very seriously.

Look, I'm not saying that we should exclude PC RPGs entirely from a "best RPGs of all time" list. We'll just decide, say, the Top 25 Console RPGs, and then the Top 25 PC RPGs. Discussing them separately will make things a lot easier. Watcha think?

[Nature Boy]

Look, I'm not saying that we should exclude PC RPGs entirely from a "best RPGs of all time" list. We'll just decide, say, the Top 25 Console RPGs, and then the Top 25 PC RPGs. Discussing them separately will make things a lot easier. Watcha think?

But you are excluding them, aren't you? Why come up with two lists?

[Kid Fenris]

There's a difference between excluding something entirely and putting it in a separate category. PC RPGs are markedly different from console games, and it would be easier to debate the best of the two worlds in one topic per genre.

It's probably a moot point, anyway, since there's little support for redoing the list. Theaveng's legacy will just have to linger.

[calthaer]

It should definitely be one list, because I think more PC RPGs will eventually show up on the list than console games.

I agree with one former poster that Ultima VII should definitely be on that list. That is certainly one of the best RPGs of all time, and it makes my list of top 5 probably. Note that this is the PC version and not the lame SNES version which was pretty much crap.

Quest for Glory belongs on there, too...I mean the whole series is pretty good, but maybe just the first one would suffice. Bard's Tale I was definitely better than II, I thought.

And about Zelda...

Well, if Zelda 3 is an RPG, then why not Super Mario Bros. 3? Just think about it, what does Zelda have that SMB3 doesn't have?

SMB3 / ZELDA3
-You can explore 8 worlds / You can explore the Dark and Light worlds
-You have an inventory of items, and the more items you have the better chance you'll have of completing any given level / same thing with the number of hearts - more hit points = greater chance of beating foes, and you have an inventory there, too

I'm sorry, but although I love the Zelda games, they just don't really classify as an RPG largely because there is little or no role-playing going on. I suppose I'm defining the term "role-playing" very loosely, and what I mean by it is this:

You must be able to define a particular role for your character and then complete the game with that role. The game must be completable using multiple roles (or groups of "roles" in the case of a party-based game).

I mean - using this definition a game like Super Mario Bros. 3 would even be MORE of a RPG than Zelda 3 because you can choose a role (Tanooki / Hammer / Raccoon / Fire / etc.) and play the game differently using each role. Zelda doesn't give you that freedom. Certain bad guys need to be taken out with certain weapons, and when you have one weapon you pretty much have to move right on to the next dungeon and can't take on the challenges in another one.

The story in Zelda is so bare-bones that it's almost laughable, and it's completely linear - you have absolutely no choice about how to personalize / customize your character or what strategies to use, which items to equip, etc. It's not like Link can use an axe or a sword or a staff or anything else - he's just Link. You can't have a Mage Link or a Thief Link or a Warrior Link. You have no choice in the matter whatsoever.

On that same vein I suppose you could argue that many of Square's games can hardly be classified as RPGs. Each character has no choice of weapons (they can only equip one) and the game is almost always strictly linear...I suppose the one thing you can say is that you can choose which characters to include in your party at any one time, thus making your party as a whole a sort of customizable / role-defined character.

You have to have some sort of definition when you come up with a list like this - you can't just throw a list out there. By the loosest of definitions even SMB3 would classify as an RPG and there's no reason it shouldn't be on this list rather than Zelda or some of these other games. The definition of RPGs has changed a lot since Gygax and whoever else invented them as means of shared story-telling. All those numbers and stats were simply afterthoughts, numerical methods of representing story-aspects and character qualities so that the story could progress using a set of understandable rules (and not just the whim of the Game Master).

Computer and console "RP" games, however, were mostly ONLY about numbers and stats, and there was no story that the numbers served. Especially Square games - your characters' numbers have no effect at all on the story apart from the idea of whether your will actually be able to jump through their linear hoops or not. You might as well call those types of games "stat-based platformers" because instead of pressing a button to jump over a pit, you're pressing a few buttons to get your guy to kill the opponent in turn-based combat.

[Kid Fenris]

It should definitely be one list, because I think more PC RPGs will eventually show up on the list than console games.

By my count, the list presently contains 27 PC games (two of which are also listed as SNES titles). I think it's safe to assume that 25 slots will be enough for the best that PC RPGs have to offer. Most of our genre-specific "Top" lists number no more than twenty games, at any rate.

I also find your definition of an RPG to be nearly as vague as the phrase "Role-Playing Game." As you point out, your terminology can be applied just as easily to the stat-free Super Mario Bros. as it can to Ultima.

Your view of Squaresoft games (and console RPGs in general) seems similarly unreliable. In these titles, characters commonly use multiple weapons, and many storylines (see Saga Frontier 1 and 2) offer multiple paths and nuanced progression. Moreover, if a Final Fantasy is not an RPG because it offers less freedom than a PC RPG, would it not follow that a PC RPG is not a "true" RPG either, since it offers less freedom than a table-top RPG, the source of the genre itself?

Anyway, here's what I'd like to do. I'll start one list for the top 25 PC RPGs, and another for the top 25 console RPGs. To spare us more debate over Zelda, I'll classify the series and similar games as "action/RPGs" and save them for another list, and another can of worms. For the console games, at least, we'll stick to menu-driven RPGs and that sort of thing. Yes, it's somewhat complicated, but then, so are RPGs.

[The Manimal]

I always considered the Zelda series to be adventure games.

So would Gauntlet be considered an RPG?

[calthaer]

What do you mean "unrealiable?" I defined role-playing games as ones where you could choose and define a role for your characters. In Square games your characters usually have choices like:

Cloud Strife gets to choose from:
-a sword
-a slightly better sword
-a better-than-slightly-better sword
-a different-looking sword
-a better different-looking sword....

and so on and so forth until you get to the end of the game. Rinse and repeat with just about every other character in just about every other typical Square game (FF8, 9, Chrono Cross, etc.). I would hardly call that "multiple weapons" - more like "variations on one weapon." If you read my post carefully you would've also seen that I conceded the fact that you could see the party as a whole as a "character" and that you could call those "role-playing games" by defining the role of the group (i.e. - a melee-heavy group, a magic-heavy group, etc.). I didn't say "Square's games are not RPGs," I'm just trying to see how far one could take the argument by saying "one could argue that." You either missed that point or chose to ignore it just so that you could debate :)

If there's no choice, then there are no roles because you can't define the roles. Might as well make SMB2 where you choose one of the four characters "role-playing" if you're calling Zelda "role-playing."

And of course the definition is vague. My point was that Zelda is not an RPG, so I chose a definition that allowed me to prove it :D That definition was just about as vague as any other one provided on the list that made no mention of stories, characters, or roles, all of which have historically been core elements of any "RPG" - and not just the numbers.

[Kid Fenris]

What do you mean "unrealiable?" I defined role-playing games as ones where you could choose and define a role for your characters. In Square games your characters usually have choices like:

Cloud Strife gets to choose from:
-a sword
-a slightly better sword
-a better-than-slightly-better sword
-a different-looking sword
-a better different-looking sword....

and so on and so forth until you get to the end of the game. Rinse and repeat with just about every other character in just about every other typical Square game (FF8, 9, Chrono Cross, etc.). I would hardly call that "multiple weapons" - more like "variations on one weapon."


Yes, but not every Square game falls into those choices. In Final Fantasy III and V (and the tangentially related Final Fantasy Tactics), characters can class-change at the player's whim, using different items and weapons as they switch "jobs." In Saga Frontier and SF2 (and, from what I've played, the Romancing Saga series as well), characters can equip and specialize in a variety of guns and swords, or simply learn hand-to-hand-combat. Some of the Final Fantasies are indeed restrictive, though the Sphere Grid of Final Fantasy X renews the habit of letting players develop characters into different classes, and the job-change system of Final Fantasy X-2 (which, I admit, I haven't played yet) seems to do much the same thing.


I didn't say "Square's games are not RPGs," I'm just trying to see how far one could take the argument by saying "one could argue that." You either missed that point or chose to ignore it just so that you could debate :)

Well, I have been accused of misinterpreting arguments for that very purpose, so I suppose I simply disagreed with the hypothetical view that Square games are not as reflective of their genre's namesake as customization-heavy RPGs . . .


And of course the definition is vague. My point was that Zelda is not an RPG, so I chose a definition that allowed me to prove it :D That definition was just about as vague as any other one provided on the list that made no mention of stories, characters, or roles, all of which have historically been core elements of any "RPG" - and not just the numbers.

I agree that Zelda shouldn't be termed a "pure" RPG in the same capacity as Final Fantasy or Ultima. This is why I'd prefer to put Zelda in the category of "Action/RPGs," along with Secret of Mana, Beyond Oasis, Terranigma, and other console games that could have their RPG status called into question. Of course, it's hard to say what would and wouldn't be an action/RPG (Gauntlet?), but it would at least leave us to debate the top RPGs with a selection of games that are straight, stat-based examples of the genre.

[Ultima_fury]

:pimp: Allright where would RPG's be today without,more zelda,BREATH OF FIRE,neverwinter nights,everquest and of course...the whole zelda series

[Griking]

:pimp: Allright where would RPG's be today without,more zelda,BREATH OF FIRE,neverwinter nights,everquest and of course...the whole zelda series



I suppose that they would only be great RPGs like Baldur's Gate, MorroWind, Icewind Dale, NeverWinter Nights and Dungeon Seige. Not to mention all of the online RPGs out there now.

[BigBoogie]

Ummm how about Diablo? I think it should be close to #1 (if not #1), and its not even up there. Also Vay for segaCD. Might not be near the top but definetly better than some of the ones up there.

[Shadysmurf]

Vagrant Story (PS1) For Final Fantasy 7(PS1)
Valkyrie Profile (PS1) For Final Fantasy 3(Snes)
Ancary Online (PC) For Ultima Online (PC)

[Neonsolid]

Gone.

[classicb]

well I don't really play RPGs but I was reading this list because I was looking for a good one to start on. I find it hard to believe that there hasn't been a newer RPG made since Skies of Arcadia that could crack into the top 50 maybe this thread has just gone ignored since.

[squidblatt]

@ classicb, I don't have a PS2, so I'm cut off from most of the console rpgs of this generation, but I'd recommend Jade Empire as a starter if you have an Xbox. It's got an engaging world with decent writing by video game standards. There's a lot of options, but it's still linear. The combat is okay, but could have used more polish. However, it's not an rpg in the style of Final Fantasy, so if you're looking for one of those, JE is not a good choice.

My personal list is a little different since they're mostly oldish PC titles.

Starflight
Wasteland
Wizardry: Proving Grounds of the Mad Overlord
Pool of Radiance (the SSI version)
Fallout series
Daggerfall
Magic Candle series
Hard Nova
Baldur's Gate series
Gothic 2
Ultima 3, 5, 6, 7

various other obscure PC titles.

[Speedy_NES]

I believe the following RPGs should be included somewhere, at least in part:

Breath of Fire
Morrowind (I can understand that Daggerfall is taking its place...but I still believe Morrowind deserves its own spot, since the impact it had was far greater than some of the other RPGs on that list)
Ultima VII: The Black Gate instead of Ultima 4

RPG(s) that I think should be removed from the list:
Eye of the Beholder (SNES)
all the MMORPGs

-Speedy

[sealboy6]

I love the fact that everybody here is usually talking about older games, yet I wasn't more than 5 when those came out. I would say that Chrono Cross should be on the list. I don't know. It is one of my favorite games of all time. I just loved it.

As for the whole argument thing here, I don't think that Zelda is an RPG, because the whole argument of an RPG with missions and explorations and leveling up applies to a whole lot of games. Gaining more hearts and keeping them is not what constitutes an RPG. San Andreas allows you to explore, do missions, level up your weapon skills, level up your driving skills, gain more health, gain a better breath for swimming, and yet, though it may meet the criteria, I don't think that it is an RPG. Sorry, but that is not what makes an RPG. Do I know what constitutes an RPG. Hell no. That is for people to decide themselves, or for websites to do. Final Fantasy's will always be thought of as RPGs, but I think most people think of Zeldas as action adventure, so I think that is what it should stay at.