How closely could the Saturn have made Gran Turismo?

[cityside75]

OK, I've been playing with my Saturn and PS1 a lot lately, and I've been trying to see what's better/worse/similar/different between their capabilities.

Unfortunately the Saturn died an early death, so its capabilities were never maxed out. The PS1 was definitely maxed out, and one game that did so was Gran Turismo which was such a huge step up from early PS1 driving games (Ridge Racer, etc).

So if the Saturn had succeeded and Gran Turismo was ported to the Saturn, how do you think it would fare? Could the Saturn get to that level of realism?

In my opinion, driving games really exploited all of Saturn's flaws (short draw distances, no lighting, weird warping of ground textures) so I don't think the Saturn could replicate Gran Turismo very closely. What do you think?

[NaturalChemical]

I don't see the models being nearly as detailed or good-looking on the Saturn. More likely, it'd be a step above Daytona USA, if that.

[fahlim003]

I don't see the models being nearly as detailed or good-looking on the Saturn. More likely, it'd be a step above Daytona USA, if that.
The first release of Daytona? Get real man. Even Sega was able to improve over the short life-span of the Saturn the graphics of the launch release Daytona USA. Look no further than Sega Rally Championship Plus and Daytona USA Circuit Edition (CCE in US). It may have been a little rough with definite cutbacks, but it would've been alright had the time been put in as Polyphony seems to be keen on.

[NaturalChemical]

That's true. Looking back, they could probably have put it on par with SRC (at least), if not a bit beyond.

[todesengel]

Do you think the 4Meg RAM cart would have helped if that was used for a Saturn Gran Turismo? Maybe for loading up higher-res textures or something like that?

[grolt]

Sega Touring Car Championship was the last racing game SEGA made for the Saturn (in the US, at least) before it bit the dust, and although definitely worse than GT, I'd still say the textures and detail is comparable. Sonic R gives a pretty good example, graphics wise, of a racer done right on the Saturn, with a very convincing fade-in effect for distant graphics. Gran Tourismo can't even match that - it's got some pretty significant instances of pop-up as well, like signs and such just showing up at the last minute during some of the more detailed backdrops. Considering how detailed that Shenmue Saturn demo looks, I think the Saturn could have made something to rival GT had it been given the chance.

[Gavica]

Isn't Gran Turismo made by Sony? if so it would have never been ported to the Saturn

[buzz_n64]

Isn't Gran Turismo made by Sony? if so it would have never been ported to the Saturn

I think the question was more hypothetical, but I think a homebrew or pirate video game maker could do it if Sony didn't. For example- Super Mario Bros. on the Genesis.

[j_factor]

Do you think the 4Meg RAM cart would have helped if that was used for a Saturn Gran Turismo? Maybe for loading up higher-res textures or something like that?

RAM isn't an issue. Saturn already has more RAM than Playstation. And Gran Turismo doesn't use particularly high-res textures.

[cityside75]

RAM isn't an issue. Saturn already has more RAM than Playstation. And Gran Turismo doesn't use particularly high-res textures.

Still an interesting thought I hadn't considered. I'll bet that extra RAM could have helped the Saturn to create (fake?) some of the effects that GT has on the PS, and probably could have helped with draw distance.

Also, this was more of a "hypothetical" so I understand that GT wouldn't have made it to the Saturn directly, but maybe they would have made Sega GT early?

Also, grolt - I have Sega Touring Car and while I haven't really looked closely at how textures and small details compare, I will say that overall that game feels like it falls way short of Gran Turismo (way short of Sega Rally as well IMO) graphically speaking. I haven't tried Sonic R unfortunately, I'm always scared away by some really lousy reviews it's received. It sounds like its worth a pickup just to look at the tech though.

I've been reading through the first year of Next Generation magazine again lately, and it makes me sad that the Saturn never hit its stride. I think more than any other console, its true limits may always remain a mystery, but of course that Shenmue trailer exists just to remind us that those limits were never reached...

[Nebagram]

I'm not optimistic. If you look at the racing games that did appear on both systems (thinking of the Psygnosis (god, I miss that brand) games like Wipeout and DD) the PSX versions tend to be noticeably better than the Saturn.

[RCM]

I don't know if it would've been a 100% accurate port, but if you put enough money into a Saturn game (with the right group programming for it) you'll get a pretty game for that era. Saturn was powerful, yet costly to develop for, which was a huge advantage for the eloquent PS dev environment. I remember reading a comment from one dev that went something like "Why develop a great game on Saturn for a million bucks when you can achieve the same or better results on Playstation for $500,000?" Saturn was great when great devs developed for it, but Playstation generally gave better results to any hack of a game developer.

[Peonpiate]

With the right team it could provide a superior port. Yu Suzuki ported Virtua Fighter 2 over to the Saturn and it ran High res and at 60 FPS. The Psx would not be able to do the same. Same goes for racing games, put the Am2 team behind it and they would get it done and do it better.

[j_factor]

Still an interesting thought I hadn't considered. I'll bet that extra RAM could have helped the Saturn to create (fake?) some of the effects that GT has on the PS, and probably could have helped with draw distance.

What effects does GT have? I haven't looked at it in a long time but I don't recall that game having any particular effects. The only effect that is generally a big issue in PSX to Saturn conversions is transparency. I don't remember if GT even has any transparency (with a quick look at a video, it doesn't appear to have transparent windows), but if it does, it's relatively inconsequential and I think a transparency-less port would be good enough for the purposes of this thread. I don't think draw distance is much of an issue, although Gale Racer did have an inexplicably shitty draw distance. Need for Speed and WipEout XL turned out fine (the latter with a greater draw distance in the Saturn version).

But the bottom line really is that Saturn has more total RAM and more VRAM than Playstation, so it seems silly to me to suggest using the RAM cart for any Playstation to Saturn port.

The Saturn really lacked any great effort at a real driving game late in its life. I think the best comparison is probably Sonic R or Steep Slope Sliders. Both are pretty solid and have good draw distance for the time.

[cityside75]

What effects does GT have?
The effects I was referring to were:

Car reflections - they were low-res, but more advanced than I ever recall seeing in a 32-bit driving game, and I think they relied on transparency...did Saturn have any games that had a comparable effect?

Lighting/shading - Saturn had no built in shading, but some games did create the effect in software. GT had some pretty convincing shading, especially in the night courses (plus some good headlight effects).

These effects were really key (especially in the awesome replays) to creating that realistic look that GT had.

Still, you might be right and the extra RAM wouldn't have mattered in a conversion of GT, but I sure would like to see what kinds of improvements it could have made to Saturn driving games in general.

[retroman]

I think it could have been done...May not have looked as good as the PS1 GT...But would have been close...Look at Tomb Raider, and NFS1, AVP, Resident Evil, and so on..

[Wraith Storm]

I think the Saturn could have pulled it off, although as said before, it would have to be Sega or another developer like Game Arts that really knew the Saturn inside and out to pull off a good version.

I don't think there is a single Saturn Saturn game that displays all of the effects that the system could pull off. But we can look at individual games and some of the effects they have to offer and imagine if they were thrown together in one package.

High Velocity (Touge: King the Spirits) was a racing game released by Atlus in 96 for the Saturn. It's an excellent racing title but beyond that it has an amazing draw distance. So good in fact you would be hard pressed to find ANY pop up at all in the game. Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHGsRAsP8yA)is a video.

As Grolt mentioned earlier, Sonic R released in late 97, has a smooth fade-in technique to replace the harsh, noticeable pop up present in most games of the era. It also shows that the Saturn is capable of doing real time reflections, but unfortunately this is limited to the title and load screens. Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kvIyqmPvGDw)is a video.

Nissan Presents Over Drivin' GT-R, released in Japan in 96, is an amazing title as well. It has an amazing draw distance with virtually NO pop up and a smooth frame rate. It has clean textures and the track is nice and detailed with overpasses and buildings, all with virtually no pop up. Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9T7Zvw9XjB8)is a video.

Then there is Scorcher which was released in late 96. It may not have real time light sourcing, reflections, an invisible draw distance, or any fancy effects. But it just looks beautiful. This game uses the Saturns high-res mode to good use. From the back drops to the track design, everything looks SHARP and runs blazing fast and ultra smooth. The color pallet is what really made this game however. It really gives that game an atmosphere of its own and looks superb. Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3lyBL-FOkc)is a video.

So now we have an idea of what the Saturn was capable of. Could it have pulled off a decent version of GT... I think so. If the right studio had the reigns it could have pulled off a version that would have looked as good if not better than the PSX version.

[tomaitheous]

So now we have an idea of what the Saturn was capable of. Could it have pulled off a decent version of GT... I think so. If the right studio had the reigns it could have pulled off a version that would have looked as good if not better than the PSX version.

There's a fault in your line of thinking. Just because you have single instances of specific features, doesn't mean it can do any combination of them together without some sort of sacrifice/trade off. Game engines, more so back then, were specifically tailored around hardware and game logic conditions - allowing you to tweak one aspect to a higher degree at the expense of something else. A good game engine takes advantages of something that's less noticeable, to give back to something more noticeable (whatever that effect or function might be). You can't just pick and choose such features from games and expect to bundle them into some specification of what the system is capable of or some sort of measure. This also applies to the 16bit and 8bit generations as well.

[Greg2600]

The big thing with Gran Turismo, aside from the menus, cutscenes, etc., was the texturing. It had the most elaborate texturing of any console racing game at debut. PC's games could do much better of course. Neither PSX or Saturn could come close to the N64 in modeling, lighting, shading, frame rate, etc. Anyway, most of the Saturn racing games did not have good texturing and the 3D models were often poorly shaped.

[Wraith Storm]

There's a fault in your line of thinking. Just because you have single instances of specific features, doesn't mean it can do any combination of them together without some sort of sacrifice/trade off. Game engines, more so back then, were specifically tailored around hardware and game logic conditions - allowing you to tweak one aspect to a higher degree at the expense of something else. A good game engine takes advantages of something that's less noticeable, to give back to something more noticeable (whatever that effect or function might be). You can't just pick and choose such features from games and expect to bundle them into some specification of what the system is capable of or some sort of measure. This also applies to the 16bit and 8bit generations as well.

Yeah. I understand that, I was just trying to show that the Saturn was capable of some VERY impressive 3D racers. Racers that each had some different unique programming or design that was a showcase for the system similar to how GT was a showcase for the PSX.

It helps to know what a system is capable of before you imagine what a port of a game from another system might be like. Thats all I was trying to get at.

[Vlcice]

The big thing with Gran Turismo, aside from the menus, cutscenes, etc., was the texturing. It had the most elaborate texturing of any console racing game at debut. PC's games could do much better of course. Neither PSX or Saturn could come close to the N64 in modeling, lighting, shading, frame rate, etc. Anyway, most of the Saturn racing games did not have good texturing and the 3D models were often poorly shaped.

3D games never made much use of the RAM cart on the Saturn, but I wonder whether a 3D racing game using the 4MB RAM cart could end up with very impressive texturing.

[Rob2600]

3D games never made much use of the RAM cart on the Saturn, but I wonder whether a 3D racing game using the 4MB RAM cart could end up with very impressive texturing.

Good point, but as j_factor mentioned, the Saturn already had more RAM than the PlayStation to begin with.

[bangtango]

The Saturn really lacked any great effort at a real driving game late in its life.

Most everything you need to know is in this sentence right here.

The primary obstacle wouldn't be the capabilities of the Saturn but more of a lack of effort.

Put effort into the project, assign the right people to work on it and you'd probably get a port just as good as the Playstation version or close to it.

Get lazy with the project, rely on the B-Team and you end up with a bug-ridden racing game that just happens to have the Gran Turismo name on the box.

[jammajup]

I dont think the Saturn would even have prayer at attempting it,with games like Daytona the machine cannot even draw the near distant scenery without `popup`

[Rob2600]

I dont think the Saturn would even have prayer at attempting it,with games like Daytona the machine cannot even draw the near distant scenery without `popup`

Wasn't Daytona USA a launch title? On the N64, it's like comparing Cruis'n USA to World Driver Championship or on the PlayStation, comparing Ridge Racer to Ridge Racer Type 4. Developers always need a few years to maximize the hardware.

[Emuaust]

I dont think the Saturn would even have prayer at attempting it,with games like Daytona the machine cannot even draw the near distant scenery without `popup`

Did you just post this to troll? or did you genuinely not read or watch any of the links posted?

If so, then what an intelligent use of comparing a launch game (Daytona) with a later release title (Gran Turismo). How about comparing apples to apples?

[bangtango]

I dont think the Saturn would even have prayer at attempting it,with games like Daytona the machine cannot even draw the near distant scenery without `popup`

Yeah and it was a half-baked version rushed to market that Sega later went back and improved.

Get out of here with those house of cards statements.

[Rob2600]

I dont think the Saturn would even have prayer at attempting it,with games like Daytona the machine cannot even draw the near distant scenery without `popup`

It bears repeating:


Wasn't Daytona USA a launch title? On the N64, it's like comparing Cruis'n USA to World Driver Championship or on the PlayStation, comparing Ridge Racer to Ridge Racer Type 4. Developers always need a few years to maximize the hardware.

[cityside75]

Yeah and it was a half-baked version rushed to market that Sega later went back and improved.

Get out of here with those house of cards statements.

To be fair, Daytona CCE came out a fair bit later and really didn't improve matters THAT much (I happen to think the original plays better too).

Having said that, it's important to remember that Daytona was a huge game on huge arcade hardware, and I don't think the PS1 would have handled it a LOT better. In fact Burning Road, a Daytona rip-off on PS1 (and awesome game in its own right :)), has a pretty sad draw distance as well. Only difference is that it wasn't a high profile launch title for the PS1.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=BwZn_HRFiew#!
(Jump to 1:00 for gameplay)

Also, have you seen the draw distance in N64 Wipeout? Saturn was not the only system that struggled with short draw distances.